Via Roy, the very prestigious New York Post, as well as Citizen Journalists across the land, are horrified, just horrified, by the results of this poll:
Nearly two-thirds of Americans think it is possible that some federal officials had specific warnings of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, but chose to ignore those warnings, according to a Scripps Howard News Service/Ohio University poll.
The Post reports on these findings in its distinctive idiom:
'BLAME U.S. FOR 9/11' IDIOTS IN MAJORITY
'PLOTS' THICKEN IN SHOCKING POLL
Michelle Malkin is likewise (ahem) disturbed. "Guess Kos was right when he proclaimed of the nutroots: 'We are the center.' The fringe is now mainstream." Other voices on the Right are just as alarmed: "This is madness writ large." As indeed it is -- for instance, the NY Post wrote it large in all capital letters.
As Roy remarks, "'Blame U.S. For 9/11'? Seen from a less hysterical angle, the poll result seems like a merely uncharitable reading of the findings of the 9/11 Commission." Exactly. Which is why I tend to have little patience for 9/11 conspiracy theories, on the grounds that such theories distract from the appalling public record.
But then again, the public record is rather the point. I find 9/11 conspiracy theories troubling, but then, I ask myself, "Self? What do you expect? It is quite clear that the administration began a war on the flimsiest of pretexts, then botched this war in an amazingly obvious fashion, all the while running an absurd PR campaign designed to sell the American people a bunch of absolute horseshit about how swell the war was going." This is an administration that says torture is not torture, that corruption is not corruption, that lies are truth. Hell, it even stonewalled the 9/11 investigation. What were we all supposed to make of that? The known, undisputed and indisputable history of the Bush administration reads like a conspiracy theory.
So I have some sympathy with those who worry that one can never be paranoid enough when it comes to this bunch. Of course one can take that too far. But there should be no question of where the responsibility lies for the current climate of cynicism, paranoia, doubt, and distrust. Conservatives alarmed by such developments might want to run on a different campaign platform next time out, other than the one they've been using, which deliberately foments such passions in order to gain electoral advantage. Just saying.
Honestly. It's pretty rich seeing lunatics like Malkin getting into hysterics at conspiracy theories. Movement conservativism is nothing else but one big giant conspiracy theory. What else was the Clinton impeachment mess but the wreckage of conspiracy theorists run amok? What else are we to make of the article of faith that Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein were in cahoots -- and of the fact that a conservative who even mildly hints otherwise is going to get smacked back into line mighty quick? What about the hysterical global warming denialism? The Lancet study madness? Or, the daddy of them all, the belief that the Main-Stream Media is deliberately conspiring to win elections for Democrats? And that the only way to prevent their dastardly scheme from succeeding is an army of online idiots who have some half-assed ability to run Google searches and can thus maybe get someone they don't like harassed or fired for some imaginary transgression?
It's obvious who's on the "fringe," and that would be the 30% crowd. And, of course, the Democratic leadership that's still for some unfathomable reason afraid of these drooling fools, not to mention their punditocracy enablers. Why should that be, I wonder...?
(Shrugs) Dunno. Might have something to do with Elvis. Or Bigfoot. Probably Bigfoot.
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Zed?
zed!
1?
Thers!
You gots it DrDick!
Gots me firstest everest zed! Wooo-hooo!.
Thers, bringing us fine crap weekly is a dirty job but I’m glad you do it.
Elvis, Bigfoot AND the easter bunny Thers.
Hi everyone
UFO’s? Maybe its all an alien plot.
DrDick.
No way! Well, congratulations.
and further,
Mary!
Suzanne!
Gawd…after all this tasering and all, now we get Malkin?
This hits just keep coming.
UFOs piloted by BigFoot and Nessie using the Easter Bunny’s list stolen from Santa Claus as to who is good and who’s been bad doing renditions.
Aw, shucks ma’am. Just bein’ obligin’.
(Looks into sunset in very masculine cowboy fashion.)
What is not specific about a Presidential Daily Briefing entitled “Bin Laden Determined to Attack in U.S.” that mentions highjacked planes flown into buildings? That’s not a conspiracy theory, that’s known fact!
Thers @ 13
707
TeddySanFran @ 14
Only known to people who pay attention.
Thers, ya nailed it on the head…
The known, undisputed and indisputable history of the Bush administration reads like a conspiracy theory.
Suzanne @ 12
Hey, just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.
Or so I’ve heard.
Just to add to the paranoia”
(snip)
Reports have begun to circulate that the Administration has put together a group of scholars headed by a right-wing activist judge to craft legislation to introduce a new court of Star Chamber, perhaps to be floated in the coming year. As we see in the public pronouncements of the Bush Administration, accusations leveled at detainees in the war on terror are leveled for political effect, and often to parallel partisan political campaigns. If those accusations are rejected by a court, it therefore undermines confidence in the Administration and the Party. Which is why, in the Bush view of justice, a failure to convict is unacceptable. And which is why the Bush view of justice is no justice at all.
Harper’s
(Looks into sunset in very masculine cowboy fashion.)
That made me hear the music from The Good, The Bad and…
you know…
Seriously, though, I am always amazed by what the crowd in the White House gets away with, and what comes out almost daily basis…. Its always so much worse than anything one could have imagined.
And I know there is a lot we don’t know about what happened immediately after — who got out of the country fast, who was with whom when the planes hit … and the whole Iraq thing always smelled like a diversion: look over there! Don’t look here! Look over there!
TeddySanFran @ 14
Condi is still sputtering about it…
“Guess Kos was right when he proclaimed of the nutroots: ‘We are the center.’ The fringe is now mainstream.” MM
Sweet Jeebus on a stick! Now a great majority of Americans just aren’t American enough for the toads. The frickin nerve of us not appreciating all that has been done in our name.
This is just the continuation of making the citizens of this country the enemy.
Michelle is always SO concerned with the truth.
one does not have to believe that bush and cheney personally wired the towers with explosives to think that there seems to be a few things strange about the official 911 story line(s).
TeddySanFran @ 14
AND the Phoenix Memo…. one of 51 different warnings….
My belief is that BushCo allowed 911 happen. They needed their “New Pear Harbor” and saw one coming down the pike….. and just stood there and allowed thousands of Americans die and the other 300 million develop some form of PSTD from the trauma
Bush Derangement Syndrome = the belief, despite all abundant evidence to the contrary, that George W. Bush is a good or even competent president.
Have to say Thers that all those conspiracy theories run afoul of the Bush administration;’s unbroken record of catastrophic incompetence. If they had been running it, the airliners would have flown into the Petronas Towers in Malaysia.
selise @ 25
because, just like with jfk, the official line just doesn’t fit the puzzle pieces
Hard to remain sane when all around you are going crazy.
I always thought that Easter Bunny was up to some funny business…
selise @ 25
Like Cheney was bunkered down and NORAD was non-functional. And Bush was out of town. And the bin Laden family was flown out of the country. And and and and . . .
Steve-AR@19
At this point the Clinton Star Chamber doesnt sound half bad.
Hiya Thers!!! Hiya y’all!!!!!
katymine @ 26
Conspiracy I don’t buy, but willful neglect? That’s this groups modus operandi.
Rut-roh. 9-11. The topic which has always been ‘inappropriate for this blog’…
Might I just toss out that the “official” 9-11 story is itself, by definition, a conspiracy theory?
smapdi @ 24
Exactly. Aspects of the 911 truth movement are troubling. I’ve never believed we were told the truth about this event by an administration that was already then - Cheney’s energy task force is only one example - hiding the truth at all costs.
We’ve been lied to about 911 every bit as much as any of the worst Bushista regime operation/fiascos. That’s as far as my nutty theories on this go.
A perfect oppertunity to prove that gommint doesn’t work.
jayt @ 35
The Mod Squad has prepared with copious amounts of tin foil, copper mesh and everyone has on hip waders.
I think it is OK if this one is true.
You’d think…
As with the Clinton impeachment nonsense, and Bush’s approval ratings, nothing shocks Wingnuttia more than when America listens to their nonsense and then independently comes to a simple, logical conclusion…
*swipes into quotes file*
Suzanne @ 38
will we need brain bleach?
What the 911 commission gave us was a conspiracy theory and one which is very unlikely to be true or accurate.
They simply did not account for much of the evidence and in fact, had it destroyed or have not produced it… the video tapes of the pentagon and ALL the black boxes…. yet they have produced two in tact passports of the hijackers… yea right.
I think the 911 conspiracy theory is whacko and I could go on and on.
What IS out there is a “TRUTH MOVEMENT” not a bunch of conspiracy theories. People simply want the truth. Yea there are some theories advanced… but they are no less logical than the official conspiracy theory of the 911 commission.
I don’t believe a word of it.
SnarKassandra @ 39
Unfortunately, it has not been the case for at least 20 years (if it ever was).
SnarKassandra @ 42
The brain bleach stuff happens after you go to bed.*g*
I actually kind of felt bad about that — the poll result grabbed me & so I knew it was my topic, but I know that yes, this issue can attract the, um, differently epistemological…
I owe ya one, Suz.
The Bushes and the Bin Ladens are close. Real close. A Bin Laden is blamed for 911 but never brought to justice. All parties concerned made tons of money and garnered even more power. And the patriot act was written in a matter of weeks? days? WTF kind of info does a person need to think this wasn’t planned by these very people. Could they have taken any better advantage of the situation?
Ah think ah am gettin the vapors.
Hey ya’ll, I’m back!
After a week away from the lake I can personally vouch for the fact that lurking is no fun. After a day or two I just stopped reading the comments and only read the posts. It was just too frustrating ;0(
This situation always reminds me of the moon landings and conspiracy claims.
marymccurnin @ 23
Arianna Huffington makes just this point about the GOP every time she appears on Countdown: “The fringe is now mainstream.” She is speaking, of course, of bomb-bomb-bomb-Iran Old Lord McCain, double-Gitmo Mitt, and Rudi.
But it’s amazing to think of Malkkkin using the same argument, about DK and the mainstream nutroots.
heh
I just wanted to say that I saw Jane on C-Span early (Thursday or Friday) morning. She looked fantastic, and handled the callers really well. I wanted to post something at the time, but I was stuck at my mom’s house for Thanksgiving. Luckily, she wasn’t up yet, or the TV would have been stuck on FOX.
I keep telling her that that stuff is going to rot her brain, but that’s her whole life, sitting on the couch smoking cigarettes and watching FOX. It’s really really sad.
Anyway, it was kind of an education watching that crap. There’s very little news on FOX at this time. It’s mostly missing girls and sad sad stuff delving into people’s sad lives and personal problems. I really don’t know who’s responsible for that Peterson woman going missing, but do we really need to spend several hours a day interviewing various family members and having them air out all of their personal problems on a national cable network.
I suppose this is kind of the fallow time for that network. They air this really sad crap just to keep their sad sad viewers stuck to the tube, so they can get their political indoctrination later. Well, there is some indoctrination happening, but O’Reilly is a lying jerk, and Hannity is stupid as a brick, so I have a hard time seeing it being effective.
Well, maybe it is. My mom thinks H. Clinton is a bitch and just really truly hates her on some kind of visceral level. I don’t pretend to understand it. It’s some sort of programming that she got from the constant drumming of propaganda she watches on FNC. When that crazy person called in and called Jane ‘Unamerican’ she sounded just like my Mom. Except that was a man … sort of.
Anyway, my longest post ever. I just try to reason gently with my mom, but I don’t try to change her. It upsets her too much. I think even she knows now that Bush is a liar and a crook. But she can’t get over her hate of anyone who opposes him. Except me, because I’m her son. I suppose I just have to love her, I have no choice, she’s my mother.
You mean like this, Thers?
Oh, lord, lord. All of my relatives finally left.
madmommy @ 48
Welcome back! Glad to see you survived your sojourn into wingnuttia.
Thers @ 46
Presenting bill for:
4 sets of hip waders
2 cases of reynold’s wrap (heavy duty)
1 bolt of copper mesh
assorted liquid refreshments to gulp down with the various antacid medications*
*itemization of these items prohibited by federal health privacy regulations
hi madmommy! did y’all have fun?
Thers @ 13
Chewing on big grass, like wheat.
We’ve been lied to about 911 every bit as much as any of the worst Bushista regime operation/fiascos. That’s as far as my nutty theories on this go.
This is pretty much my position. I do think there were good people on the Commission, but it’s also clear the administration’s position was “stonewall.”
They took that position, and they want moral immunity from conspiracy theories? I dislike conspiracy theories in general, but what the hell did they expect?
You can’t make this shit up.
link
The “freedom commission is shutting down an Islamic School. I wonder how many hate spewing fundie schools they want to shut down? Black is white up is down….
Hey Madmommy.
Lurking can be fun.
Maybe just for other people.
Haven’t I read that A Lot more people lurk than post comments?
Must be a reason.
I guess it depends.
On stuff.
Lots of stuff.
marymccurnin @ 47
Heh, why did they allow Osama to escape when they had him pinned down in Tora Bora…?
“All right. You’ve covered your ass, now.”
George W. Bush - August 6, 2001
The problem with these types of theories is the evidence and the facts. If they are fuzzy you can claim WHACKO nutjob and no one will look further.
Then yoiu appoint some commission of bobbleheads to white wash the little evidence which is brought forth, and keep the evidence secret for 50 years and and MOVE ON because the nation needs to heal or in the recent case.. get on with kicking ass and making some money for the MIC and the oil sector… and the Israel lobby.
If it wasn’t for the Jersey Girls there would be no 911 commission and if you ask them.. they don’t buy their conspiracy theory of 19 guys on orders from OBL in a cave.
And OBL is not officially accused of that one by the FBI. Now that’s odd in itself. He’s been made to be uber buggie man and he’s not being sought for 911. Ha?
welcome home madmom
DrDick @ 6
Got your zeddy popped, eh? Was it good?
Really, what the poll shows is simply how little Americans trust this president and his administration. Very few of them may actually believe he orchestrated it, but I bet a majority of them are afraid it might be true and given what shocking things they’ve seen happen … are unable to rule it out. Can’t be laughed out of bounds, because what if ….
It has been well established that Condi Rice was given a detailed report of an immenent attack.
Fuck the Truth. The Necon/Repub manta…
burnspbesq @ 64
Very sweet. I will always cherish the memory. ;~)
Burnsie!
That comment was kinda risque for you.
Hubba Hubba.
That is to say, high officials might not have had exact information about the date, time, and form of the attack, but why in the hell did they have to have that sort of information?
madmommy @ 48
Sorry about ‘Bama, they had opportunities… Hawaii is about to become the only undefeated team, Kansas is down by 10 late in the fourth…
DrDick @ 53
Not as bad as Mark @ 51, but in the neighborhood. My step-sister showed up with a giant Ronnie Reagan tote bag. It took all the strength I had to supress a full-body shudder and a nearly uncontrollable urge to fling the nasty thing into the fireplace.
Former Saudi Ambassador, and good friend to Bushies, Prince Bandar says the Saudis could have helped stop the 9-11 attacks. The “hijackers” were being followed with precision by the Saudi government. But Bandar blames US officials for not being serious and credib le enough. This raises many questions, such as why the Saudis did not try to stop the attack.
There are claims that Prince Bandar (or his wife) aided the “hijackers”. I wonder why Congress would help cover up evidence of this?
jayt @ 35
What do you mean?
My belief is that BushCo allowed 911 happen.
LIHOP, then. (Let it Happen On Purpose). Makes more sense than MIHOP (Made it Happen on Purpose).
The obvious problem with MIHOP is that it imputes a competency to these thugs which is itself unbelievable. And there has been no leak of any such plan. The Immovable Object.
The “official” story, however, doesn’t wash either. The Laws of Physics trump the 9-11 Commission. The Irresistible Force.
Swear on a stack of bibles that the first time, on 9-11-2001, I saw the tapes of the Towers coming down, I said “No fucking way”.
I said a few months ago that if there’s a Heaven, and I happen to get there, first thing I’m gonna do is head for the Information Booth and get myself the true low-down on 9-11 and the JFK assassination.
Peterr @ 18
Actually, if they really are out to get you, it’s not paranoia — it’s caution.
Philip Zelicow was Condi’s deputy and he led the 911 commission and did his best to quosh a real investigation. That report was a joke.
SnarKassandra @ 55
The kiddos had a blast, the pics are on FB. There were no huge fights so in the grand scheme of things, all is well. Did you have an enjoyable Thanksgiving?
Apart from the purple-heart bandaids, the thing that rankled me the most about the 2004 GOP convention was Rudy making a whining apology for Bush. “But he was only President for eight months when 9/11 happened!” Setting aside the fact that a term is 48 months long, and the grown-ups were supposed to be in charge from the outset.
demi @ 59
It was very hard to lurk after participating in the give and take. At least for me, anyway.
Howie’s post with all the links to Jane’s CSPAN appearance
TexBetsy @ 63
Thanks!
SnarKassandra @ 39
With co-conspirators like that … we are well and truly f**ked.
Hee hee. Something like that…
My own personal conspiracy theory (at the level of maybe it could be true) is that the Bushies were behind the anthrax mailings. Then 9/11 happened and they ran with it. It would explain why only Democrats (or suspected Democrats) received the letters, why they never caught who did it, and why the investigation just seemed to disappear as soon as nobody was looking. Not to mention that the reports indicated it was military grade anthrax from a US lab.
CTuttle @ 69
Yeah, I figured the hated Tigers would prevail. Great game by the Warriors last night though! Me and the big kid watched it and he was facinated by the Haka. He likes the cool uniform colors, and the warrior guy too.
madmommy @ 80
What beautiful children in the pics!
FOUR sets of hip waders! How many hips do you go through…?
Yeah, the Bush administration’s secretiveness and participaiton in nefarious schemes like torture and the suspension of basic Constitutional rights tends to make conspiracy theories more believable. Arguing against it is the fact that they are incredible screwups. Katrina revealed it to most of America, but we knew it from the beginning.
I tend to believe that they had no specific knowledge of the 9-11 attacks, but they knew that sooner or later there would be a terrorist attack and they were well prepared to take advantage of it to advance their agenda of middle east war and the expansion of Presidential power negating all those pesky Constitutional limits on the executive’s power.
I think that 9-11 was earlier and bigger than they anticipated, but I give them credit for taking full advantage of it.
DrDick @ 83
it doesn’t even have to be a bushie - could be a sympathizer(s) unknown to the bushies. gov is not a monolith (as much as rove has tried to make it one).
DrDick @ 83
Explaining the dems lack of backbone. Scared stiff.
Speaking of Prince Bandar..Marcie has dirt..
Prince Bandar, a confidant of the Bush family, recently retained the former Federal Bureau of Investigation director Louis J. Freeh, as well as one of the fathers of the F.C.P.A., the retired federal judge Stanley Sporkin, to represent him.
“There have been no charges filed,” Mr. Freeh said in an interview. “The prince denies any impropriety and violating any statutes in the United Kingdom or the United States.”
link
I never understood why Bill had the piece of crap Freeh as FBI Director.
Thers @ 86
you don’t think i’m doing this all by my lonesome, do ya? and i don’t wanna hear one word about what those blasted hip waders do to my silhouette.
About 6 months after the 911 Commission report came out Richard Ben-Veniste spoke at an ACLU luncheon and during the Q&A session someone tried to get some answers about many of the 911 Truth issues and boy did he tap dance.
He was a surprisingly terrible speaker and only when he was answering questions did he improve. It was from that point that I questioned the validity of the 911 report. Can’t remember any specific details now but from that point on, my gut feeling is that there was a lot of politics involved.
bottom line - i don’t have enough info to reach any meaningful conclusions… living with the uncertainty and ambiguity is uncomfortable - but i think that’s were we arel.
The MIHOP theory is more about rogue members of the MIC, the intel agencies doing it and this was probably known as in… chatter. It’s more like a cross between LIHOP and MIHOP because it is more than likely that the people used and blamed were not the one’s who pulled it off, but patsies who would take all the blame… set up.
But the disabling of the defenses was not incompetent bumbling, but purposeful so that the appearance of planes could take place. It’s unlikely that those planes caused the towers to collapse and they certainly had nothing to do with WTC7 which was not even hit.
There is no evidence of a plane in PA… or people… but debris from a explosion spread over many miles.
No plane at the pentagon either. No bodies… no DNA… but it was reported from a military lab in MD that all the people were identified… ha?
It was very hard to lurk after participating in the give and take. At least for me, anyway.
Right. Different strokes, and all.
Even when I don’t feel like sharing, I still like to see what my friends are up to.
Just me.
marymccurnin @ 85
Why, thanks ma’am! The quirks of the gene pool always astound me-average folks like me and the hubby can combine and make such cute younguns!