A while back, I wrote a ranting post about how Congress should not go around voting on bills like the Patriot Act and new FISA legislation without, ya know, reading up on the subject. I recommended the comprehensive and very readable reference book recently published by David Kris which lays out all of the applicable law and explains how these laws work together. Evidently, nobody in Congress took that sound advice because I keep hearing drivel about how the government needs to expand FISA to deal with the "ticking bomb" or "Jack Bauer" scenario.
Let me introduce to an important legal term we lawyers sometimes use:
BULLSHIT
[Ed. note: My mother always gets really embarrassed and upset with me when in swear in public, or private, so don't tell her I did this, OK?]
Let me tell you a little bit about what the government could do under FISA even before Congress started monkeying with it:
FISA searches without Judicial Approval:
Under 50 USC §1802 and §1822, the government can conduct electronic surveillance and physical searches without judicial approval, otherwise known as a warrant.
Here's some relevant language from the statute:
notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance [and physical searches] without a court order ... to acquire foreign intelligence for periods of up to one year if the Attorney General certifies in writing under oath
Three essential requirements:
1) Exclusivity -- the surveillance must be directed solely at communications channels used exclusively by official foreign powers; or the acquisition of the data must be solely from property owned and exclusively controlled by a foreign power; or the physical search must be directed at property used exclusively be a foreign power.
So, say country X has a nationalized telephone company. The AG can certify an intercept. If country X has a server farm used solely by country x, we can sneak and peek, and so forth Some non state foreign powers composed of non US persons (like the PLO) or cartels made up of foreign states (like OPEC) are considered to be foreign powers. So, Al Qaida would clearly qualify.
2) There can be no substantial likelihood that the search or surveillance will infringe on a US person's privacy interests.
3) The surveillance must be conducted in accordance with minimization procedures that are reported to Congress.
This provision has a one year certification period.
Further under 50 USC § 1805(g) the AG can authorize:
"Training" of US intelligence personnel and testing of electronic intercept equipment of live US carriers using real US citizens as guinea pigs. The testing and training cannot exceed 90 days without an extension by the AG and the information collected is supposed to be destroyed as soon as the testing is completed (or sooner if feasible depending on the testing requirements---basically as soon as possible) but in any case within 90 days unless the AG certifies that it should be kept longer.
Yep, Firepups, if the intelligence agency wants to test new equipment or train their techies in how to listen in, they can get on the wires and listen in while you fight with your mother over the phone, talk sexy with your significant other, write embarrassing email and have a good chuckle over in the lunch room, because there are no minimization requirements on the training. Good to know that an AG---like Abu Gonzales---gets to decide when these intercepts are destroyed. I feel so much better knowing that, don't you? (gosh the snark is all the way up to my knees already!)
Lastly, under both FISA and Title III, specifically 18 USC § 2518, which deals with domestic wiretaps used in regular criminal cases: the AG could ALWAYS authorize emergency wiretaps without a warrant for the Jack Bauer scenario. The sole requirement is that the Emergency he is certifying must:
1) specifically involve immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury, or
2) conspiracy activities threatening the national security interest, or
3) conspiracy activities involving organized crime that must be addressed before a warrant can be obtained.
This is under the regular criminal rules!!!! All the AG has to do under either FISA or the Rules of Criminal Procedure is certify and wiretap, then apply for a warrant within 48 hours.
The AG has always had all the power he needed for the Jack Bauer scenario. The Constitutional justification put forth for this by some legal scholars is that the authority for this rests on the 4th Amendment exception for exigent circumstances, though the legislative history in the statutes is not explicit on this point. The exigent circumstances exception allows other warrant-less searches to prevent destruction of evidence (like flushing the dope down the john) or to prevent harm to a person (so if I hear the hostage screaming inside, I don't have to wait for a warrant before I break down the door to save her).
Another source of authority under existing FISA laws for the AG to authorize warrantless wiretapping and physical searches is under 50 USC §1811 and §1829. Notwithstanding any other law, the AG may authorize electronic surveillance, physical searches, or pen/trap surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information for a a period not to exceed 15 days after the declaration of war by Congress.
Can an argument be made that the AUMF triggers this provision? I would not be comfortable arguing that in court, but maybe John Yoo doesn't suffer from my delicate sensibilities.
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LooseHeadProp!
Wow! What a cool post. Does congress know that they can already do the Jack Bauer stuff?
((((((((( LooseHeadProp)))))))))))
Happy Thanksgiving.
Cassie got the zed!
looseheadprop @ 5
Great post and congrats to Cassie.
looseheadprop @ 5
Yep!
And cassie is being a blog whore for a new thanksgiving post about poverty.
Hey loosehead, wishing you and Little Prop a happy Thanksgiving. And don’t worry, we won’t tell your mom that you said a bad word.
Yeah, they could always do all that stuff, but only with oversight and accountability. Those are anathema to Cheney and Addington.
Cassie - Congrats! Is it your first?
LHP–Wonderful post - well, I got as far as your technical legal term and started laughing (literally) out loud.
Gotta go back and read the post. I really look forward to your lucid yet passionate legal writings.
Thank you and
Happy Thanksgiving LHP
I digg it
LHP, I need a brief reality check…of course everyone, Congress and Admin knows all this…so WHY DO they want all these surveillance powers In your opinion?
No, I got lots of zeds in the summer when I was on the computer more.
Speaking of bad words,
this is exactly why I get so pissed off about Bush and his warrantless wiretap program.
LHP demonstrates, with no wiggle room, above that they already had, have and will continue to have, the ability to obtain as fast as physically possible, any number of information streams and/or sneak and peeks.
The thing that Bush is all pissy about is the accountability, AGAIN.
He feels that he should be able to do all these things at will for as long as he damn well pleases without EVER having to justify them to a judge.
WRONG-O BUCKO.
RonD @ 12
1) they want to spy on companies for other companies
2) they want to spy on political campaigns
3) they want to spy on people from their admin who want to write new books about them
4) they want to know if alexis and joey kissed or if they did a lot more
I think looseheadprop has earned enough reputation to be able to contact directly some the politicians that matter and discuss these issues
we need the bloggers at the lake to have a pipeling to the people that really represent us in washington
SnarKassandra @ 7
Cassie, great post. Thanks for sharing and somehow I know that your comments will make a difference. Happy Thanksgiving.
So LHP if they didn’t need all the BULLSHIT what do they need to pass nude legislation? It must be something else… no?
I don’t get it… and aren’t staffers supposed to bone up on this stuff and give an exec summary to their congress critter so they don’t sound so dumb?
So– if they can do these things already, within old FISA, why are they making such a stink about revising it? Seems to me BushCheneyCo would have been better off pleading exigent circumstances and leaving the law alone, re-certifying the need every ninety days.
If they are really only eavesdropping on terrorists, which I don’t believe for a minute.
Maybe? I think that is taken as given.
Does the United States own a little island somewhere to which we could exile these clowns, like Napoleon on St. Helena? Maybe we could buy St. Pierre et Miquelon from France …
burnspbesq @ 21
Could it be a very small isle with a very active volcano, please.
[mod note: Please do not suggest, insinuate, threaten or wish physical violence or harm on anyone, including public officials, both current and former. It is not tolerated here at FDL. We are not like those on the other side. Thank you.]
I don’t believe they have any decent intelligence from all the chatter they listen to.
How many Al Quada are there anyway? Anyone hazard a guess?
burnspbesq @ 21
You’ve forgotten Cuba. The facilities are all ready to receive new guests…
TeddySanFran @ 19
Wonder if they are eavesdropping on each other.
Bush on Cheney. Cheney on Bush. A loop of noxious intent.
SnarKassandra @ 15
number one and number two nails it on the head, they want to steal information for the purpose of profit and power, that’s what this is really about
they want to have an upper hand whenever they are wondering what political tools a politician will bring to an issue or a vote, and they want to be able to examine bussiness plans they have an interest so they will have the upper hand in bargaining.
they can also use this information to pressure bussinesses into breaking our law.
it’s about money and power, they want to stay in power so they can keep taking as much money and assets as possible
Karl Rove. You are just about ‘a has-been’. The result of your activities and grandiose scheme for a Republican majority for as far as the eye could see has been unraveled. HRC will probably be our next president. Clinton beat the crap out of you. And I’m glad. Mr. Rove, you are a putzmeister. You, Karl, will be resigned to the dust-bin of historical libraries of failed presidents, under the heading of ‘Lee Atwater and company’.
RonD @ 12
Can you say “Unitary
MonarchyExecutive” ????SanderO @ 23
More than there were in December, 2001.
Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Oh heavens, these provisions would require the eavesdropper to do some work, not just scoop up everything in earshot, not to mention, gasp, submit to oversight by that pipsqueak body claiming to be a co-equal branch with the ominipotent president:
under both FISA and Title III, specifically 18 USC § 2518,
2) There can be no substantial likelihood that the search or surveillance will infringe on a US person’s privacy interests.
3) The surveillance must be conducted in accordance with minimization procedures that are reported to Congress.
The other thing they don’t want to admit about the ‘ticking bomb’/24 scenario is that
if they already know it’s been planted, and
they already have caught someone who knows about it,
they have, or should have if they’re at all competent in investigation (let’s not go into the competency, okay?),
the information they need to find the bomb … because they had enough to identify who was involved, and catch them,
and that should tell them which places they should be looking.
And as for you Scott McClellan, words have not yet been invented, as far as I know, to describe you.
I don’t think they are interested in information about regular working people. I think it is possible that they are watching organized crime with connections overseas…also, they may be watching people within the government and their business and personal interactions with foreigners…also, they may be watching espionage suspects….also, they may be watching opposition parties and opposition groups that may threaten the longevity of their control of the country…also, they may be looking for stuff to blackmail those they wish to control. Who knows?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 27
that’s if they aren’t able to fix the machines enough for the next election
in addition they have something planned, we don’t know what it is yet but something big is gonna happen that they are counting on to get some voters to the boothes or to keep people from the boothes
one or the other, time will tell
Oklahoma kiddo @ 32
Overstuffed snake.
JPL @ 22
Or one of those atolls that are already being submerged by rising sea levels:
http://www.iht.com/articles/20.....acific.php
Thanks, looseheadprop, for another great informational post.
‘Tis enough to make one bang one’s head against the wall, repeatedly.
Why will none of our “leaders” call this surveillance scam a scam? And since when are we supposed to be fighting “scenarios” based on teevee drivel?
I guess this is what the twilight of empire is SUPPOSED to feel like, with all liberties and sensible thinking flushed away….it is to weep.
[Love to all Firepups! Must go out, will be back shortly.]
TeddySanFran @ 19
Well, they might be spying on some terrorists as well…. At least maybe by accident
looseheadprop @ 28
Yeah, in addition to SnK’s list, I was just hoping there was another one, something less structurally damaging to the US.
Need ta locate enemies of the govt. and this govt. has a LOT of enemies!
Do they spy on bloggers?
LS–
So, is this the real LS, not the beeping meeping bushbot we saw at Late Night?(welcome back to the real LS)
“Donald Trump was on Live with Regis and Kelly today to talk about his MTV show “Pageant Place.” But before talk went light, Regis asked The Donald some questions about the economy. Donald is enraged at the oil price, creeping towards $100/barrel, and blames it on a failure of leadership. “We don’t have anybody calling these leaders and saying, ‘You get that damn oil price down.’ Because it’s a joke….Between the oil companies and these oil-producing states, what’s going on is a disgrace. And we don’t have the people to talk it down.” Donald then boldly declared, “I’d talk it down to 10!”
Kinda funny- that’s what Clusterfuck said when he was running for prez.
marymccurnin @ 35
Jaekelopterus Rhenaniae
SnarKassandra @ 41
Yes.
As soon as Bush was appointed king I knew we would all be made the enemy.
LHP–
Thanks for the great primer!
And thanks for laying out the “Exclusivity” clause. Now can you please explain to us what DiFi was doing with the Exclusivity clause that got so much attention during the SJC markup of the FISA bill? The other senators were tripping all over themselves praising DiFi for her work on this clause, but I have no clue what they were talking about.
Aloha,
Bob in HI
SnarKassandra @ 41
YEP.
rwcole @ 43
And can we imagine how often we’d be seeing the clip of that campaign promise had it been said by a Democratic president?
tejanarusa @ 42
Yeah, I was trying to escape being spied on by the NSA by wearing my antimicrowave tinfoil hat, so I thought I should act like a good little Homelandian…then I figured they wouldn’t believe me anyway..so I’m back. Oh, yeah…Impeach!!
SnarKassandra @ 41
We would all be insulted if they didn’t *g*
tejan
Yeah- Wish they’d run it nighly as they announce the latest price per barrel- with the chiron “Statement by Candidate Bush when oil was $22 per barrel- TODAY’S prive- $99.57.
marymccurnin @ 25
If Bush was smart (I know, I know…) he’d watch Cheney like a hawk. That he doesn’t is testament to yet another failure of the MBA Presidency.
RonD @ 45
I know that my site has been visited by the DOJ, along with C*FA, from the site logs. And I’m nobody. The DOJ hit followed a comment from me here back to my site.
bobschacht @ 47
I don’t know. They don’t invite little ole’ me to conference committee meetings
76% of americans will have Turkey this thanksgiving….
20% will have ham
3% will enjoy an intravenous meal
The rest aren’t sayin
LS @ 33
They also seem to be interested in political intelligence. As emptywheel sez over at TNH,
I am Shocked, SHOCKED!, that the Bush administration might use its security snooping powers to collect information it can use for political gamesmanship! {/snark}
Bob in HI
RonD @ 54
Maybe they just liked your comment…maybe they were secretly “blogging” on the job!!! s/
rwcole @ 56
How many are vegetarians?
Kassandra
Don’t know- I made up all the numbers after the first one- from Rasmussen.
SnarKassandra @ 59
Are you vegetarian, Cassie? What will be your main dish tomorrow?
SnarKassandra @ 59
How many are having spam. Spam spam spam spam…
RonD @ 54
During the Libby trial, DOJ , CSA and WH ISPs were all over the sie meter. They were followong the rial from the live blogging.
I used to imaine that SHrub (who likes “the google”) was spending his days sitting in the Oval reading the live blog.
That fantasy used to crack me up
How many are having Ramen soup?
Here’s the real study:
Eighty-three percent (83%) plan on spending Thanksgiving either at home or with relatives. Seven percent (7%) say they will eat at friends’ houses and 4% will eat at restaurants. Only 4% do not plan on eating Thanksgiving dinner.
For most Thanksgiving dinners, 76%, turkey will be the main course. Six percent (6%) plan to eat ham and 9% will eat something else. Forty-six percent (46%) expect they will eat too much on the holiday, whole 41% think they will exhibit more self-control.
The price of oil has NOT gone up… if you are pumping oil out of the ground and are forced to sell it in dollars the dollar dips and the price of oil rises and you make the same money and move MORE PRODUCT. The oil exporters are getting screwed by the tanking dollar.
Of course anyone who wants to import anything is getting screwed too.. or who wants to travel over seas.
We stuck here with useless money and nothing to buy except cheap slave labor produced Chinese crap whose currency is pegged to the dollar.
We’re screwed.
This is actually my hope, just someone at DOJ reading FDL and decided to look at it…the other one, C*FA, worried me more.
Hey- we can all buy bigger TeeVees- that’s SOMETHING.
On CNN, Gloria Borger says of the McClellan allegation: “Nobody cares anymore.”
Borger is hereby nominated for worst person of the day. She is also one of the worst corporate journalists ever.
marymccurnin @ 62
couldn’t resist
I am going with my brother and his GF up to Fort Worth. Her parents live there. We’re leaving at 11 tonight when he finishes work. And we’re going to a vegetarian Thanksgiving feast tomorrow with eggplant parmasan and salad and pie and corn on the cob and some other stuff. I already made a tray of brownies to bring and a second tray for my aunt and my cousin to bring to where they’re going tomorrow. And I made cranberry relish with the blender, oranges, cranberries and sugar.
is there a short definition for pen/trap surveillance?
I feel terrible on Thanksgiving since it celebrates the appropriation of native lands and the beginning of their genocide.
White men like their genocide and slavery don’t they?
1,665 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen looseheadprop and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Great post (though my head still hurts from beatin’ it against the wall after readin’ it)…I have said for a long time that the best thing for the Democrats ta do with the FISA bill is ta let this abomination sunset and let the old LAW back in. That would shove the administration to the edge of impeachment in the last session of Congress before a potentially major political power shift.
In my opinion, bringin’ up FISA revision while workin’ under the old law would allow us a clear look at the evidence of what has been done illegally since 2001 and would not only inform a new law but would cement the politics needed ta force the remnants of the Republican Party officeholders ta break with the fascist oligarchy.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN’ AMMUNITION…WE’RE GUNNA NEED A LOT MORE BEFORE THE FIGHT IS OVER!!
Great post. The Administration’s arguments are nothing about a shell game, a bait and switch.
It is one of the aspects of fighting against the horrendous changes in the FISA law that has bothered for a while: that FISA and other statutes already place a really low bar for wiretapping. What the Administration wants to do is essentially do away with any pretense of 4th Amendment protections.
Snarkasandra, eggplant parmesan is AWESOME.
rwcole @ 68
We just got a TV in our room last week. It is an old one that a neighbor gave us so he can get a flat new one. Now Aunt Betsy can have the living room back sometimes. :)
LS @ 64
Well, there’s this lady, whose house is about to be foreclosed on as a result of [extremely] predatory loans. See Bob Herbert’s column today (no more firewall!)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11.....Editorials and Op-Ed/Op-Ed/Columnists
SnarKassandra @ 41
Mostly.
Frank33 @ 69
Ellis Island spelling is all that separates her from her dear ancestor, Lucretia.
tejanarusa @ 78
people are WAY too greedy
Frank33 @ 69
Dam*n. I used to like her, several years ago. Thought she was fairly liberal and sensible. But then, that was before blogs and internet access to everything, and I was much more ignorant than I knew.
“spy on bloggers”
Don’t know if that’s possible- like “spying” on the local newspaper by READING it.
SnarKassandra @ 71
Cassie,
For the next holiday, add a cored apple slices when you make the cranberry relish. I hope you left the skin on the orange as well. Just treat the apple like you do the orange and cranberries in the food processor.
Oh wow- three men arrested in the Natalie Halloway case….
Three more months of wall to wall coverage no doubt.
dakine01 @ 84
yes, I left the peel on the orange. But I used a blender and not a food processor. I will do apples next time.
SanderO @ 23
There are 200 or 2000 or 20,000. If we attack Iran there will be 20 million.
Where are the Al Qaeda? They are in the Carlyle group.
What cable teevee do they have to watch the defeatist Democrats on C-Span? That is classified.
SnarKassandra @ 81
Especially those artifical “persons,” corporations. If you’ve read Herbert’s column, it will break your heart. Again.
Multiply this poor woman by tens, or hundreds of thousands. 2 million foreclosures forecast in a year or two. They won’t all be as destitute as this woman, but there will be plenty like her.
rwcole @ 83
But do they also look at who we send emails to and listen to our phone calls and know if we buy music onlne?
Frank33 @ 69
Minor editing added.
I know from rants, lhp. Thanks so much for the excellent recap of current law and operational realities in this post. [I saw a bit of David Kris on C-SPAN today - sharp cookie; also saw a Bowman of the FBI SES, on the same panel, pointing out that FISA Judges are often very unfamiliar with the modern technologies (how they work, what they are) of today’s spying agencies. If FISA judges are so uninformed, I can only imagine how clueless most Members of Congress are. High-tech crash courses required for Congress and the FISA court, STAT, please, someone.]
Here’s my FISA rant about Harry Reid:
According to a slanted observer working for Dow Jones News Service, who spoke to C-SPAN today:
1. Harry Reid is apparently ignoring Chris Dodd’s publicly announced hold on any FISA legislation that includes forgiveness of past lawbreaking (”immunity”) for the telecommunications corporations to such an extent that the hold doesn’t even merit a mention as Reid announces the immunity bill he “will” be bringing to the Senate floor in December. [Against all precedent and normal procedure regarding holds in the Senate.]
2. Harry Reid plans to bring the Senate Intelligence Committee bill (written privately by Jay Rockefeller and Kit Bond in consultation with the White House, but not with the other members of the Intelligence Committee, until the deal was done and presented, per Russ Feingold) to the floor as is. Those Senators who acquiesced in the flawed and undemocratic process behind closed doors in the Intelligence Committee that allowed the (private) deal-making on that bill are the only members of the Senate who have been entrusted with - supposedly - full knowledge, on behalf of every other member of the Senate, about the warrantless domestic security surveillance, and ought to be acting accordingly, with (far, far more) skeptical caution and care.
3. After Harry Reid brings the Intelligence Committee FISA bill to the floor (with its comprehensive and sweeping immunity provisions), he will then ‘allow’ an amendment to be offered - which may be filibustered and would therefore require 60 votes to pass (ensuring defeat) - by the Judiciary Committee in order to substitute their own version of the bill (probably amended since voted out of committee) for the Intelligence Committee’s version already on the floor (with Rockefeller and the Republicans vehemently protesting the substitute amendment every step of the way).
4. Behind closed doors, I believe the effort right now is to “compromise” on immunity (Leahy was already making noises about that last Thursday) in such a way that 60 votes will approve whatever amendment is worked out in private.
Until Harry Reid reappears from wherever he’s in hiding during the two-week break, and clarifies his position to the contrary, these are the facts that are on the public record, and we should take them at face value, and plan accordingly (as Russ Feingold, for one, already seems to have done with his statement on Friday that Christy posted on Saturday).
If good faith Senators (Whitehouse?, Cardin?, Leahy?) really must “compromise” in the name of forestalling allegedly looming billion-dollar penalties on law-breaking corporations - why must they do it now?? Wait until the process plays out - let the chips fall where they may, and once we know what happened, and the Judicial Branch has done its work, if exorbitant fines are assessed and not voluntarily waived by those bringing suit - then start worrying about passing legislation to relieve the burden on corporate stockholders… But don’t anticipate the worst, when “state secrets” so far has been the trump card (and an obviously welcome one to the corporations, as they haven’t once challenged its assertion, as I believe Mary has perceptively pointed out @ TNH), and not one penny of liability has yet come close to being assessed.
Was looking for turkey recipes in some rather old recipe books- came across instructions for “drawing” your Turkey- no- you don’t need colored pencils—it’s how to remove the insides….People used to actually KILL the turkey and then go from there- IMAGINE!
KASSIE
BEATS ME.
Cassie,
Parmesean is cheese and that is an animal product.
Drive carefully and have a safe return!
Slight interruption for laughter–
my dozing cat on the table next to the desk fell asleep and fell off. Good to have live-in entertainment when contemplating the depressing state of the world.
SnarKassandra @ 86
If you’re doing it in the blender, just cut the apple a little smaller than otherwise. Actually, if you can find access to an old meat grinder, that is about the best way to make the relish. Medium grind alternating pieces of orange, apple, and cranberries then adding the sugar at the end and all mixed up. We always had it at T’giving and Christmas
rwcole @ 83
Of course it’s spying if government agents are being paid to read blogs and report up the chain to their superiors, summarize themes, and identify traffic patterns as we travel from one blog to another.
Sander O - I never said we were VEGAN.
looseheadprop @ 55
Well, yes, but I was hoping you had access to the transcript of the meeting and could tell us from that what was up. Technically, they were having an “Executive Business Meeting” on Nov. 15 & 16 in which the first item on the agenda was “S.2248, Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2007.” Leahy’s opening statement for the hearing on October 31 is online, as are other statements for that hearing, but I don’t see a