Yes, it is a lovely thought (via Atrios):
I have a fantasy that at one of these moments, a candidate will say, "You know what, Tim, I'm not going to answer that question. This is serious business. And you, sir, are a disgrace. You have in front of you a group of accomplished, talented leaders, one of whom will in all likelihood be the next president of the United States. You can ask them whatever you want. And you choose to engage in this ridiculous gotcha game, thinking up inane questions you hope will trick us into saying something controversial or stupid. Your fondest hope is that the answer to your question will destroy someone's campaign. You're not a journalist, you're the worst kind of hack, someone whose efforts not only don't contribute to a better informed electorate, they make everyone dumber. So no, I'm not going to stand here and try to come up with the most politically safe Bible verse to cite. Is that the best you can do?"
But that's not an option open to Hillary Clinton. And while I'm sure this will open up the full-throated ire of the "must hate Hillary all the time" contingent, I believe this is where the candidates must operate within a double standard.
I myself get a perfect thrill from sitting down behind a keyboard and tapping out things that make the beat-offs at Red State just insane with rage, knowing full well that my male blogging counterparts can say the same thing and they'll be respected as "tough" and "aggressive" and "forthright." But I'm not running for office, and my career on the receiving end of right-wing rage is rather short and low-voltage compared to what Hillary Clinton has been through for well on 15 years. That she has learned how to project confidence and leadership and at the same time iron out any aggressive body language, any visible signs of anger or moments that could give rise to "the sound bite played round the world" so as not to feed into the narrative that the right wing has so relentlessly tried to sow about her is no mean feat.
The hammering she took from her competitors last night in the debate is not available to her as a means of fighting back. The Mighty Wurlitzer would instantly seize the opportunity to cast her as "cold" and "hostile," it would leap into the main stream media and that would be that. Her opponents took advantage of that fact. As scarecrow noted this morning, it wasn't a particularly high water mark in the race.
And yet, she's the one who had the courage to try to defend Eliot Spitzer last night (and more forcefully today), despite the fact that he's politically toxic at the moment and she knew she'd only take shit for it. Her opponents decided to seize the opportunity to attack her rather than defend Spitzer, and now the media is circling and calling her "shrill."
Her defense was anything but perfect, but it was a defense. Taylor Marsh:
The drivers licenses question at the end obviously surprised Clinton. But when explaining Spitzer's plan Clinton once again showed something that her opponents do not get. She is willing to go to bat for our guy in New York, Elliot Spitzer, who has been trying to deal with the immigration challenge he's facing as governor. The same cannot be said for the rest of the group on stage standing next to Clinton. What's Spitzer supposed to do when Congress shirks their responsibility on the immigration issue? Clinton absolutely got caught up in the subject, but she nailed, without flinching, what Spitzer is trying to do. It's obvious that most of her opponents not only weren't familiar with Spitzer's legislation, which lost out because no one would stand up with him, but were only interested in going after Clinton. As an aside, I think this issue will ignite the wingnuts, just like the anti gay marriage amendments did in '04. I'm against illegal immigrants getting licenses as was proposed by Spitzer (too cumbersome, for one), but I fully understand and appreciate Spitzer had to do something because Congress is not. However, that's no reason to throw Spitzer under a bus. Clinton is getting hammered today, which I predicated, especially on the drivers license question moment, which came at the end of a withering assault from The Boys. But make no mistake about it she stood up and fought back for Spitzer.
Daily Kos diarist Alegre:
Russert asked the panel of 7 candidates a total of fifty-two questions. How many do you figure were about Hillary?
Go on – take a guess.
Give up?
Right – of the 52 questions a total of twenty-five were about Hillary.
Of those 25, how many do you think were hostile toward Hillary?
Go on – take a guess.
Give up?
Right – 22 of those questions were hostile.
As John Amato said last night when we were watching the debate, "why doesn't he just ask her if she killed Vince Foster?"
It is possible to disagree with many of Hillary Clinton's policies and still have empathy for what she is going through and respect that she understands the architecture of a right-wing attack, and the fact that you simply do not repeat Republican talking points or you will only reinforce your opponent. To admire her willingness to stand up for an unpopular progressive official even though she knows it will cost her. The "must hate Hillary all the time" crowd are having a fine time circling with the wingnuts in attacking her today, and it's a sad spectacle, but as a woman this particular impulse has always struck a wrong note with me anyway.
Today -- doubly so.
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Dick Cheney controls Tim Russert.
I’m not a fan of piling on either.
I’m still pissed about that f*cking UFO question…
I think she handled all of it well.
I also really liked that Edwards called out the “Neocons” a couple of times.
The UFO question was funny and just a try to further ridicule Kucinich, but he handled it well.
Russert is just shameful.
The more they pile on Hillary, the more people will be sympathetic to her, so that tactic will ultimately backfire.
She gets points from me for supporting Spitzer.
So MMFA will be shortly recieving accusations of being a Hillary spin zone again?
I think they want her as the candidate because her negs are high and they can pile on her like big time in the general. When repukes want her to run, watch out.
Perhaps I am living in a dream world. I just want all of the candidates to tell us the truth all of the time. I don’t care if it’s Edwards, Dodd, Clinton, Kucinich, Richardson or whoever. And I don’t care about gender, ethnicity, sexual lifestyle, religion or any other non-pertinent info. I would like to see a progressive elected president in 2008, and I don’t give a damn about party affiliation either.
As a man I am sick of most of the men and women in my party. The Democratic Party.
after watching the repugs last week and the dems this week i have decided hillary is a tough lady. kind of reminds me of the Jonathan Swift quote: “When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him/her by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him/her.”
LS @ 4
I rank the UFO Ques, amongst the crass lines of…”So when did you stop beating your wife…?” 8-(
It’s more like thirty years. Your post is exactly what I was thinking the afternoon. If she doesn’t “fight back” or act pissed off..she is weak..do we want a weak Commander in Chief? If she fights back she is a bitch, too aggressive, shrill.
The crap she was getting last night was “play time” to what she has gotten the past or what is ahead. The good thing is she can perfect her game against pussies like Timmeh before having to deal with the VRWC in the up coming death match.
I am truly begining to wonder if this country is WORTH saving. That there isn’t a mass revolt of the electorate against the corporate media and this criminal cabal infecting the WhiteHouse pulls me more and more, like a rip tide, to the conclusion that it is NOT! Maybe we should work towards whatever will come AFTER PaxAmerika goes under? maybe there is some hope that from the ashes of Bush’s armagetun a truly free and democratic society can arise. But I’m not holding my breath. The fact that Rummy had to scurry out the back door and hide out in the embassy till they could get him to the airport in I believe it was France gives me SOME hope. I can see it now, the whole Bush crime family will have to stay here in America or face arrest and trial at the World Court. It DOES give one hope…but not much.
Rube Cretin @ 10
She’s tough, alright, but that’s not the issue. The issue is her authoritarianism, secrecy, and militarism.
I’m no fan of Hillary but after last night she showed me that she can take whatever the guys dish out. The spectacle was painful to watch. Obama did nothing last night to give me a reason to vote for him. Hillary is tough as nails and doesn’t make mistakes. She may have just earned my vote.
The Repubs must be thrilled that they don’t have to run on Bush’s record, just against Hillary.
Jebus. All I care about are the issues. My gawd.
A touch off topic, but still Clinton related:
No matter what bad things the Repubs do, they want you to always remember that Clinton Got a Bl*wj*b.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DAVI16FSjxU
eCAHNomics @ 14
You make her sound like one of the guys.
I agree that Russert/Williams were just awful last night, but I don’t feel sorry for H. Clinton. It’s nothing personal, she’s the leader right now, they would have piled on Edwards the same way if he were the leader. It doesn’t do her or the party any good to shy away from criticism, those softballs she was fielding last night (and I think she did better than most people give her credit for) are nothing compared to what she will have to field if she becomes the nominee and has to face the Republican attack machine. Better to face those questions now and hone your responses than wait until the national election is at stake.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
It’s not Rocket Science… fer christ sakes! 8~)
Is Hillary going through anything remotely comparable to what illegals, the poor, minorities, an Iraqi civilian, the dispossessed go through on a daily basis? And the blog elites would have us crying for poor put upon Hillary?
LS @ 4
He did handle it well - more people believe in UFO’s than support Bush. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I liked that. Biden seems honestly incredulous that Giuliani is a serious candidate.
The Thugs saying Hill is the candidate we want run against is false bravado. Just look at their recent behavior in their “debates” it’s all Hillary. When the Thugs think about President Hillary Clinton they “don’t know whether to shit or go blind”.
Hillary is the front runner and got the appropriate amount of heat.
She’s the front-runner. The front-runner’s gonna get the attention from the moderator and most of the criticism from the competition. She was defended, inelegantly, from “personal attacks” by Bill Richardson. I heard none.
She’s chosen to run an incumbency campaign. Therefore her primary opponents are going to gang up on her.
Saying it has anything to do with gender is wrong. If it was Al Gore at center stage in that coral pantsuit jacket, he’d be getting the same treatment from the others on the stage, including the moderators.
If her co-genderists are complaining about how she’s being treated by The Boys now, just wait until she’s the nominee. Do you think Laura Ingram, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter and Old 60 Grit are going to give her a pass for sisterhood in the general election? I don’t. And none of us should either.
It’s not reinforcing right-wing narrative to criticize Senator Clinton for waffling on her defense of Spitzer’s proposal. In fact, it goes to the hesitation many of us have about nominating her: she’ll triangulate her way out of answering most anything.
Bluetoe @ 20
What’s a “blog elite”?
I am a blog elite?
I don’t feel sorry for Hillary, I thought she did well.
People I know like it that she’s a fighter.
SanderO @ 7
She’s their worst nightmare. Keep in mind that they’ve learned Rove’s art of backwardspeak. Can you imagine the general election debates if Hillary is the candidate against any of those dolts? Hillary will decimate the republican candidate, and hopefully Russert to boot.
I personally felt Hillary did an admirable job, yet, I thought Edwards benefited the most, and, Obama, crashed and burned…!
Rube Cretin @ 17
In Hillary’s & my generation, it really helped a woman get ahead in a man’s world if she had the behavioral characteristics of the guys. I resemble that myself & saw plenty of other women like that on Wall St. Of course, if a woman behaves like a man (there’s a song in there somewhere). she gets criticized for it.
BTW, I was 3 years ahead of Hillary at Wellesley. I didn’t know her, but I know the type very well.
Jane,
I So Get Behind Atrios’s observation, noted above.
Regarding Hillary Clinton, there is Still very much the glass ceiling and a double bar. Women have to do it higher, better and with a smile and a casserole on the table attitude.
Just in my experience.
I also am smiling about Taylor Marsh’s comments. When I first started reading Huffingtonpost, a while before I found Lakesville - *g*, I was anamored with Taylor Marsh.
X O - All
CTuttle @ 28
Obama was like someone at the senior prom who had never danced before.
Beerfart Liberal @ 25
Meant: Am I a “blog elite”? I would think not. Gotta go give out more candy.
CTuttle @ 28
Yeah, I was really uncomfortable watching Obama’s choppiness…he made me nervous. He’s great on the stump, but he’s not good in the debates.
What is really sickening is watching Chris Matthews attack-attack-attack Hillary.
His pro- Guiliani stance is so obvious.
Love that image. It’s perfect.
Loo Hoo. @ 27
I think she would lose the general election to either Giuliani or Romney, and I hope she is not the nominee. Nevertheless, I think she did well last night, as did Edwards. I think Obama is finished. To me, the question of the moment is, will the Obama votes go to Clinton or Edwards?
Bluetoe @ 20
It’s hard to know because she wouldn’t say. I suspect with the cracker fundie preachers saying she is the agent of satan and limpdick et as calling her a commie, soc*al*st, baby killing lesbian for the last 15 years; she is and has gotten a fair number of threat to person.
Twain @ 31
Heh, nice analogy…
eCAHNomics @ 29
we are about the same age and being from the south it took me a while to get use to tough ladies. but over time i learned to respect it and believe you me i believe the tough mind she posesses cannot be anything but a plus in this very complicated world.
la urracca @ 34
Matthews was wigging out about the driver’s licenses tonight. “They’re giving them out like candy. Are we even a country anymore?” Hyperbole, no?
The “public” will go for the “strong, attractive one that is different”. IMHO
That was the first debate I listened to.
For style, I’ll give Hillary 10 — confident, completely knowledgeable, friendly, interested in the subjects, at ease
For content, let’s not talk about it.
BlueMesa @ 36
I hope they go to Edwards; it’s too soon for a run-away..It would be ideal to cut the field to Edwards, Dodd, and Clinton and let them go at each other for six months.
Lahoma advises me that she feels that the most important situation is to have a Democrat in the WH come January, 2009. Her’s is a most defensible position.
Rube Cretin @ 38
Thank you for adjusting. I know far too many men our age who haven’t.
Kucinich has the hottest spouse — and her tongue’s pierced!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 44
Exactly Lahoma. (still dreaming of Gore entering though) /sigh
CTuttle @ 29
I agree and since the MSM gives all the time and attention to Hillary, one can understand Edwards trying to make his differences known.
TeddySanFran @ 45
I chnew thacht.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 43
Since it appears there’s no way to get a Democrat into the White House sooner (”off the table”) I must say that Lahoma’s is a most agreeable position.
triciawrites @ 46
I still think he will.
TeddySanFran @ 25
I did not notice anything like this happening during the Republican debate to Rudy Giuliani.
TeddySanFran @ 45
TMI
As this horse race has progressed, I’ve long since lost my ‘Home-Grown’ enthusiasm for Obama’s candidacy…! 8-(
TeddySanFran @ 45
Where the hell did I see where someone asked if she was a FLILF?
I couldn’t figure out what it meant until I read it and now I can’t remember where.
TeddySanFran @ 45
How Dennis Kucinich Landed Smoking Hot Liz, In 8 Minutes!
link
eCAHNomics @ 46
adjusting hell, i ‘ve been backed into a corner and bitch slapped by too many of them for my ignorant sterotyping.
TeddySanFran @ 45
No shit? I’ll bet she’s got some hidden tatoos then!
/*delurk
Beautifully said, thank-you Jane!
CTuttle @ 11
How I wish, the next time Teh Big Punkinhead asks a stupid question, that any one of the Dems retort by asking Russert exactly that. That’s why Gravel is so useful. Someone should convince him to do it(if he ever gets invited to another debate).
Just saw the Donna Edwards post before this one…
I’m absolutely furious with Pelosi. Al Wynn is who she sticks her neck out for?!? You could not have found a stronger supporter of Pelosi than me nine months ago. My support has been slowly eroding, wanting to give the benefit of the doubt, but this is the last straw.
Go Donna!! In the couple of minutes it took me to enter my info for Donna Edwards at Act Blue, five more people donated. Let’s keep it going!!
Bustednuckles @ 54
http://www.crooksandliars.com/.....r-a-flilf/
Bustednuckles @ 56
Was it on TDS?
Bustednuckles @ 54
Well…don’t keep us in suspense, bk.
Rube Cretin @ 56
Well, whatever it takes, then.
The use of the word ’shrill’ to describe Clinton bothers me, too. Not only is it not accurate, I have never heard it used to describe a man in a similar situation. It’s just plain sexist.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 61
Would someone please tell me why the MSM gets to decide who we will see in the debates. I don’t understand this at all. They whittle down the candidates and we have nothing to say about it?
There is a legal fiction that a corporation is a person,
but in the case of General Electric, it’s true.
That person is Tim Russert.
Let’s start calling Ghouliani “shrill”!!!!
Jane Hamsher @ 52
Hi Jane! If you look at the state-by-state polls, Giuliani is not as clearly a front-runner as people like to say. He trails Romney in Iowa, for example. Also, if you look over time, Giuliani’s support has been steady but hasn’t grown, while Romney has been steadily gaining. It’s still a race on the Republican side. No one knows where the McCain votes will go, for example, which are sizeable in some states. Also I think Clinton doesn’t help herself by having her people leak stories about how she’s a shoe-in, so Democrats ought to just let her coast to victory and let her save her money for the general. That has to rankle anyone who votes, since no votes have been cast yet at all.
esseff33 @ 67
don’t get all hysterical ;)
when The Boys started in on Hillary being a flip-floppin’ waffler for her statements on the driver’s licenses… and while, I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I didn’t feel the least bit confused by her answer and was actually confused by the attacks…
I think The Boys, in the longer run, screwed themselves last night. They seemed dishonest and disingenuous.
Jane Hamsher @ 51
Actually, Romney mixed it up pretty well with Rudi on taxes and NYC as a sanctuary city. When you’re the monkey atop the ladder, you’re gonna be the target.
Of course, should my candidate take the lead, I’ll be the first one hollering “Unity” and telling people not to invoke right-wing memes against my fellah. So I understand the consternation: her supporters think she’s gonna be the nominee, and they’d rather we all fall in line, now.
I’m pretty sure that’s not gonna happen.
Loo Hoo. @ 65
I think it was TDS..First Ladies I’d Like to F***.
Bustednuckles @ 54
Jason Jones, husband of Samantha Bee and Daily Show correspondent.
LS @ 70
I’m for that
i didn’t even watch the debate last night… but i looks like i should have.
for anyone, like me, who wants to see it - it’s on c-span2 tonight at 9pm edt.
Steve-AR @ 73
The link is up at 61. Here it is again http://www.crooksandliars.com/.....r-a-flilf/
LS @ 68
I’m in.
esseff33 @ 67
No, it’s not sexist.
Check it.
Woman’s voices just come off a certain way. Hormones, etc.
Men, come off in a lower toned version of piercing, strident, etc.
Tweety has his tightywhities all in a twist cause today’s Clinton ad makes fun of the debate. The truth is nbc and their ridiculous questions made the debate a joke.
Matthews will look like the gooper fool he is when the Ghoul goes down.
eCAHNomics @ 66
just be gentle
Hillary didn’t attack the character of any of her dem competitors, she showed more class than that…but I sure wouldn’t want to be in Obama’s shoes right about now passing her in the halls of the senate.
esseff33 @ 67
paul krugman is shrill.
senator clinton has a long way to go before she can qualify as shrill.
demi @ 82
but imo shrill essentially translates to shrew. There could be a less loaded word to use to describe her voice. jmo
OldCoastie @ 71
I didn’t like the piling on, I remarked last nite, that it was deja vu of the Repug debate… “Hillary, Hillary…!” 8-(
demi @ 80
Someone’s actually done a study of women’s voices across several develped countries. The pitch goes down as the acceptance of women’s equality goes up. For example, women’s voices were highest in Japan, and lowest in some Scandinavian country, iirc.
I don’t HATE Hillary and resent those (not you) who say that if I don’t support her, I HATE her. Is Hillary my choice? No. But I don’t HATE her. And I am frankly sick of being told that I do. (If it is reverse psychology, that doesn’t work either.)
All the hostile comments at her last night are what a front-runner always gets. And those candidates below her NEED to do that. But Timmi? And the rest of the misogynistic pundits? A different story.
If only the blogs could get some MSM time — like on Timmi’s show — you know, shows that have big ratings. I sometimes see ONE on, but that person rarely, if ever, comes back on. Hmmmm — I wonder why the Timmis of the world never have them back?
eCAHNomics @ 89
well now that’s fascinating, wonder if I can google that up >>>
Brainstorm…
What other names do they keep calling Hillary and or the Dems in general?
We need to turn it around on them.
What if the question that was asked was:
“Senator Clinton, do you think that invading Iraq was a mistake?” ?
Or, let’s ask this question:
“why should democrats vote for a candidate who can’t or won’t name the misery in Iraq for what it is? And why should progressive democrats defend her?”
Because if she cannot, or will not, do that, it means that in the general election, she will be shaving points for the GOP and abandoning the issue on which they are most vulnerable.
As for dog-piling, every frontrunner in every election faces that. Period. Exclamation point.
From what I saw of that last night, she was given too MUCH slack.
I didn’t watch the whole thing, but did anyone ask her about her connections with AIPAC?
I know John Edwards got into her corporate ties some, but did anyone point out just how much she’s received from “defense” contractors?
Did anyone ask her the crucial question of how she expects to go after bush and republicans for dragging us into Iraq, when she has never unequivocally said that it was a mistake to do it?
If asking these questions is “dog-piling”, then: arf! arf!
Because, until I see someone ask her THAT question, I have to say that far from being unfairly attacked, she’s being treated like a sacred cow.
What respect I had for Bill Richardson went down the tube, when he complained about “negativity”.
We are nearly 5 years into a bloody, pointless, war, in which at least a half-million people have died, ours and theirs, with no end in sight. It has cost us more than $400 billion dollars, and counting.
It is a war which Senator Clinton voted to authorize, and which she has consistently supported. And she has never recanted; never apologized; for that support.
There is, as we all know, not the slightest indication of a “good” ending.
At this point, with the MSM and the establishment beltway democrats working hard to orchaestrate a stampede for someone without a dime’s worth of difference between her policies on that war, and george bush’s, we can’t afford a string of talking-goody-two-shoes “debates” with puff-piece questions.
As has been pointed out by several people on here, if she and her supporters think last night was tough, what will they do when the republicans start unloading on her?
To my knowledge, if she were a man named Smith, most of her statements about the war, and her votes relative to it, would never pass muster with either the staff or the posters here. For that support, and for supporting Joe Lieberman against Ned Lamont, and for most of her track record in this wretched war, we would all condemn “him” for being a yellowdog democrat. And deservedly so.
With all due respect, I think until now, she’s been given a hell of a pass on some of the toughest issues, most notably, her support for the war, and the huge problem that will cause her (and us) in the general election, if she’s nominated. That looks to be changing, and it should.
We need to talk about issues. About where the candidates stand, specifically, and we need to think about what kind of campaign they can and will run if we nominate them.
And if pinning each of them down, INCLUDING Clinton, on that, means that we’re being “negative”, then, two MONTHS before a primary vote has been cast; I say bring on the “negativity”.
We need to find out who gives us the best chance of winning this election.
No free rides.
Elliott @ 89
I think this has a link to it:
http://www.marginalrevolution......voice.html
If Bush keeps telling all these lies about Congress and doing administrative orders and such, they might get pissed. If they get pissed enough, they might do something he doesn’t like. Like set the table.
Thanks, Jane, for defending Hillary when its appropriate.
I can appreciate the predicament of “the boys:” very little they have done so far has dented Hillary’s campaign HumVee. Does not the standard campaign playbook say that when an opponent is ahead, you can’t gain much ground by being nice, and the only way that seems to work is to go negative, and hope something sticks?
Obama apparently wanted to conduct a “nice” campaign. So what happened? After an incredible early start, his trendline is down.
Edwards in 2006 conducted a “nice” campaign, and wound up helping Kerry hardly at all. His campaign this year has been fairly positive, and I loved his “No timelines? No funding! No excuses!” theme to end the war. But that hasn’t caught fire the way they hoped.
On the other hand, Dodd went “negative” by threatening to put a “hold” on the Senate FISA bill, and he got more contributions in the next 24 hours than he’d received in the previous month.
So what are “the boys” supposed to do?
Bob in HI