Another week of our Residual Troop Watch has passed with no specifics from the presidential "frontrunners" on their plans - but Senator Clinton sure had a lot to say this morning on her multiple big media appearances. While the headlines speak of her plans to "end funding for the war," her full comments are more informative.
On Face the Nation she said "there would be a continuing American military presence in Iraq:"
Clinton said she recognized "there will be remaining missions" for American forces in Iraq, but she said they would not require the roughly 100,000 troops expected to be in Iraq when the next president takes office. She listed counterterrorism, protecting U.S. personnel and training Iraqi forces as the other missions.
"That's the right way to go because that is a much clearer definition of what we're trying to accomplish than what we face today," Clinton said.
Bloomberg reports that in her ABC appearance "Clinton said she couldn't promise to bring all U.S. troops home in her first term if she is elected president."
Interesting eh? As David Sanger, chief Washington correspondent for The New York Times, noted on Face the Nation Clinton's position is not all that far from George Bush's:
"It's a very small difference, and when you tick off the tasks she said the troops would do while she was president - if that happened - counterterrorism, protection of the Kurds, training of the Iraqi army and then protecting us against Iran, that's a big set of tasks," Sanger said. "And it's very hard when you talk to Pentagon people to have them figure out how you do that with fewer than 100,000 troops."
Oh, and in case we had thought she supported MoveOn, Senator Clinton also had some things to say - first on Meet the Press:
``I think it's important that we end these kinds of attacks on the patriotism of those who serve our country,'' Clinton said on NBC's ``Meet the Press'' program. ``This is not a debate about an ad. This is a debate about the direction we should pursue in Iraq.''
and then on ... Fox News:
WALLACE: President Bush said that you and other Democrats are more afraid — his word — afraid of irritating the left wing and MoveOn than you are about insulting the American military. Does he have a point?
H. CLINTON: No, he doesn't. But I think it's clear I don't condone attacks on anyone who has served our country with distinction and with honor, and I have been very vocal in my support of and admiration for General Petraeus.
I did vote for a resolution that made it clear I do not condone and do condemn attacks on any American, impugning their patriotism, and that includes people like Senator Max Cleland and Senator John Kerry.
I think we need to call a halt to any kind of attacks, from wherever they come, that would go after anyone based on their service to America.
WALLACE: (snip) So let me ask you specifically. Do you repudiate the MoveOn.org ad?
H. CLINTON: I have said, and I have voted for, condemning anyone who goes after the patriotism and service of any American.
But let's put this in a broader context. You know, there are many people who have assaulted over the years the patriotism and service of other Americans. I think it's time to end all of that.
And what I voted for in the Senate did that. It was balanced and it said, very clearly, we condemn attacks on anyone who has served honorably in our country's uniform. And I am absolutely of the mind that this should not be part of our debate.
While our politicians condemn ads instead of the continuation of the occupation, a new danger has been added to the lives of the people of Iraq. The WHO reports that Cholera is spreading throughout Iraq. The team at GorillasGuides are providing daily updates of this horrific development - you can read them all here. Note the comments from Maryam, the Iraqi pediatric oncologist who visited with us this summer:
I am desperately concerned also by the water supply situation. Since they were bombed by the Americans during the 1991 war the water treatment plants throughout Irak have limped along. Their degradation was further worsened by the adamant refusal of the UN during sanctions to allow the plant and supplies needed to repair them to be imported. There has been no serious attempt made to repair water treatment plants in Irak although many no-bid contracts were dished out to large and politically well connected American firms who took the money and left.
Those plants that are operating operate irregularly and frequently at drastically reduced capacity because they either cannot get the fuel they need to run their generators or if they depend on national grid they get at most a few hours electricity a day.
Additionally they cannot get adequate supplies of Chlorine. Basrah for example has now run out of Chlorine. There have been many statements about plans to ensure the security of Chlorine deliveries from the green zone government but so far little or no Chlorine.
These factors are particularly worrying as they could lead to the formation of biofilms in the pipes carrying water. Bacteria in biofilms are far more resistant free-floating bacteria both to antibiotics and to disinfectants such as Chlorine.
You can help - and help is desperately needed - with contributions to the Red Crescent - click on "Iraq Humanitarian Crisis" to direct your donation to the IFRC teams who are trying to get chlorine and water treatment filters to Iraqi communities - and by demanding once again that our representatives take action to protect the lives of the Iraqi people.
Photo: A man sifts through the rubble of a destroyed house after a U.S. raid in Mussayab near Hilla, about 100 km (60 miles) south of Baghdad, September 22, 2007. Seven people were killed and 12 others were arrested during a raid conducted by U.S. forces in Mussayab on Saturday, police said. REUTERS/Ibrahim Sultan (IRAQ)
h/t Jerid
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Siun!!!!
hello, Siun!
exactly right. i’m ashamed by congress’s actions this week.
HRC…i can’t go on.
Hi Siun!
zedecile
Good evening everyone!
Siunshine, I read you and check myself for scars thinking we must have been separated at birth..)
Hillary really showed her true DLC colors on CNN today and cannot imagine why people are supporting her at all.
I was hoping you were on a happy vacation almost as much as I was hoping you were just showing up a bit late, Siun…
We all know how much I hate this war. Please tell Maryam that I’ve shared her story and truth with as many people as will listen.
ET - I will pass the word to Maryam. She is very upset by the cholera spread and conditions are so bad for fighting it.
ES - the HRC comments were so telling …
(separated at birth, hmmm …. maybe!?)
Senator Clinton did, however, vote Nay on the resolution condemning the Betrayus ad. That’s something (I wish I were certain what).
g’evening siun
you mean bushco with all his “concern” for the iraqis they donbt already have these items?? where’s the funds going?? as if i didnt really know………..
AP - The U.S. military accused Iran on Sunday of smuggling surface-to-air missiles and other advanced weapons into Iraq for use against American troops. The new allegations came as Iraqi leaders condemned the latest U.S. detention of an Iranian in northern Iraq, saying the man was in their country on official business.
HRC is a neo-con owned and operated political machine, and support for a candidacy like hers is bad for your moral hygeine.
If she is the first president to pre-emptively nuke another country since Nagasaki, an option she proudly maintains is “on the table”, how would you feel having supported her?
Least worst is not a valid excuse, nor is ‘just following orders.’
Lynn Lightfoot @ 11
HRC voted no on the coryn amendment condeming moveon. she voted yes on the boxer amendment condmening moveon.
Lynn … The vote that HRC voted for was Boxer’s resolution which condemned MoveOn but also condemned the Swiftboat campaign etc … hence the ability to claim to vote against and for at the same time. This is a tactic being used a lot these days it seems…
Looks like Hillary will be the next prez…odds are at least two ta one in favor.
Good night for kiddo and me.
lahoma
Wait, Hillary’s a DINO? Who knew? After nearly 4 years of support for Bush’s war, she still isn’t willing to repudiate it? I am shocked. And unwilling to stand up either for her base or the First Amendment? Well, none of us could have guessed, could we? Indeed none of us can say afer seeing how she has acted for the last nearly 7 years how she will act as President so I am sure as long as we don’t use consistency as a guide she will do fine.
Siun @ 16
As if wasting their time on one stupid resolution wasn’t bad enough! Has anyone gotten an explanation from Harry Reid as to why he let this debate even occur?
OK Kiddo … we do seem to arrest Iranian diplomats rather often. Too bad we don’t arrest Blackwater thugs instead.
just sayin’
Mincemeat and Parsley. It’s what’s for dinner at HRC’s house. (Mincing and Parsing her words, in case my joke was over yer hed . . . ;~]
Shorter HRC: “I was for the war before I was against the war before I was for the war.”
rwcole @ 17
She is and she’ll find someone’s ass to kick. . .true dat!
I thought the Betrayus ad was reasonably funny- but most don’t share my sense of humor- most people thought it was disrespectful..goopers pretend to be outraged by it. Dems don’t quite know what to do. I’m bored by the whole fuckin thing.
I just had the misfortune to turn on the tv. Hannity is running a program on moveon. Basically, he says that moveon engineered the Lamont campaign (wrong, if memory serves me correctly they were timid, and got marginally involved after the primary.) That we forced HoJoe out of the Democratic party, but he got the “last laugh.” They showed DarkBlack’s graphics of Clinton and HoJoe, implying that it came from the Lamont campaign, which ran a “nasty campaign led by nutroots.” That Lamont has “disappeared into obscurity.” Wrong, he has always been local, and still is involved locally. That moveon is now afraid of the Dem party because of the Cornyn Boxer BS. I wanted to put my fist threw the tv. /rant off.
Lynn Lightfoot @ 11
Yea, but she voted yes on the Boxer resolution, and they where not that different. She is a weasel, always has been.
Oh and Hillary sucked on Pumpkinhead’s show this morning.
HRC will not be the next prez
for two reasons
lots of people hate her
crooked elections
oh, and a third thing, MSM will criticise her
(I’ll be away from comments for about 10 minutes … brb)
Good post Siun.
What I find depressing is the complete inability of the media and presidential candidates to think and discuss big picture. Withdraw the troops, not withdraw the troops? That is the entire debate. The failure of the sruge shows that focusing solely on military tactics will result in failure.
I heard courtly ol’ Bob’s show and disagreed with Sanger’s comment that there is not a lot of difference between Clinton and Bush’s position because it is based on a measure that does not mean much in the long term. We do not know enough about HRC’s approach to ME. It would be nice if she would tell us. But, reality is about more than troop levels.
The important questions are: Will these troops be there with the US attempting a biilateral (US-Iraq) and mainly military appraoch to security in Iraq with the US playing the big daddy trying to call the shots? (if the answer is yes, then 0, 30,000, 200,000, 400,000 troops will fail, so ought to go with cheapest number in terms of lives and dollars, which is 0).
Will there be comprehensive regional negotiations with all of Iraq’s neighbors. Will there be pressure put on Saudi Arabia to stop support of insurgency in Iraq, as well as pressur put on Iran? (If the answer is no, then whatever we do will fail, so then might as well just leave and let things take their course).
Will future president cut out the Cheney-Bush US crony capitalism, and lawless behavior? (if no, then we will never ever get any meaningful buy in for substantial help from UN or allies.)
The fact that cholrea is spreading in Iraq because ’security measures’ prevent sufficient chlorine from bring used in water treatment plants, that is talking big picture. The implications of that get to some big picture issues. Why was that not mentioned?
I found the level of discussion on Face the Nation dpressing. HRC and Sanger and ol’ courtly Bob sounded like grade schoolers playing with GI joe dolls in the backyard. Nothing they discussed would make much difference in terms of improving vital US national security interests in the region, or improving chances that Iraq can emerge from its current nightmare soon.
And in my opinion “vital national security interests” does not include things like “The US is an empire now and it would be nice to have airbases next to the oil.”
Siun @ 30
Oh boy, can I talk about the Bear game? (just kidding)
Siun @ 21
follow the money
HRC just gets all the media.. i for 1 dont think she’s all that electable..she surely doesnt have my lil vote and according to a friend or 3 she doesnt have theirs either…
Siun @ 21
But…but…Siun?
Doncha know there are bad terrorists and there are good terrorists?
And how does one tell them apart?
Some wear boxers and others wear briefs. Depends I guess on which side you sit.
The world is a funny place that way.
juslin @ 34
Maybe everyone can just throw away there vote on Nader. . .that’ll show em.
We’ve established what kind of woman she is, and now were just quibbling over residual troop levels.
sporkovat @ 14
Brilliant.
[and OK, sleep well :) ]
wesgpc, I left ya comment on the prior thread…
wigwam @ 37
Great!
ohhhhhh is ralphy running again lol
If any other candidate is gonna stop Hillary- he’s got about two months to eat into her lead- and that’s gonna take some big firepower- not a little teasin. Once we get into the holiday season- it’s about over.
raven @ 40
Heh, Richardson, in the last debate said no troops, except the embassy’s marines would remain…
CTuttle @ 43
That’d be some great fuckin duty!
raven @ 44
Glad, I was Army… ;-)
it’s going to be interesting to me to see how many here on FDL argue for and against her if she gets the nomination
i’m pretty sure how her 4 years would go
It seems that the Iraqi occupation question has been settled. We will stay forever. How did this happen? Who’s promising we’ll actually leave? I know Richardson and Kucinich are. Anyone else? Are we supposed to just accept this? Iraq forever?
CTuttle @ 45
Engineers, first in last out!
rwcole @ 42
Most polls show a three-way (or four-way) race in Iowa, with Edwards ahead. Hillary has a very slight lead in New Hampshire. This doesn’t portend well for a Clinton sweep. National polls mean nothing at this point. Her inevitability quotient with TradMed will go way, way down when she loses Iowa and the victor in Iowa gets enough of a bump to tie or beat her in New Hampshire.
(Remember, the media needs to sell papers and get eyeballs to the tube; a humdrum primary, with the “frontrunner” winning it all, does not serve their purpose. Building up a frontrunner, only to have her stumble, does.)
Then it’s anybody’s game. Once the “frontrunner” ain’t anymore, there’s no telling who gets nominated.
ymmv
Clinton said she recognized “there will be remaining missions” for American forces in Iraq, but she said they would not require the roughly 100,000 troops expected to be in Iraq when the next president takes office. She listed counterterrorism, protecting U.S. personnel and training Iraqi forces as the other missions.
“That’s the right way to go because that is a much clearer definition of what we’re trying to accomplish than what we face today,” Clinton said.
So Hillary says the Iraq occupation is a good thing. Other then OIL, OIL, OIL, OIL, why would we still be in Iraq?
mui @ 26
the senate opened the crack. we can expect the RWNM to do everything they can think of to drive the wedge in.
raven @ 48
Yer right, somebody has to clear the path…! Didn’t like that aspect much…!!!
selise @ 51
Inside everyone of those Haji’s is an American trying to get out.
CTuttle @ 45
ROFL….let’s make sure they’re not just Jarheads, but fundamentalist Jarheads, eh, raven, CT?
I am leaving to watch TIVO Meet the Press. Before I go, I want to say that I hope that people will see that the worst democrat is many times better than the best republican.
HRC may very well be the worst democrat. I certainly felt that way after seeing her health care program.
I wanted to put this comment up before I watched MTP, because HRC may just piss me off so much, as she is wont to do, that I am unable to summons the strength to remind friends here that even if we have to hold our noses, I hope all of us will work hard to see the Dem nominee elected.
Hannity’s Sunday nite wee programme is harmful to the health of the viewer.
It’s nice that Hannity has moved on
from spending all his time in Sandy Berger’s pants. In all of the polling done since the ad it is the Republicans and supporters of eyerack that have lost numbers.
The msm is just lying now not even pretending to use facts. Tweety slobbering all over the president’s press conference said Bush was setting the agenda for the 2008 campaign. This weekend the ap tells no one speaks Shrubs name on the campaign trail and no one wants to be seen with him
A poll in the Louisville Courier Journal said in the history of the paper Shrub has the lowest ratings.
Teddy
Well- the most recent polls show Hillary widening a lead in the early states and in the big states. Your comments about national polls are accurate- but even the state polls are goin her way. I have to say that she’s runnin a damned good campaign.
Ed*ard Teller @ 54
I thought that was the Fly Boys’ problem…!!! ;-)
TeddySanFran @ 56
not if one doesn’t watch TV
my unscientific survey of a train full of music lovers traveling through copper canyon mexico this past week showed not one hillary supporter.
to a person they did the nose scrunch, sour face “guess i’ll vote for her if i hafta…” thing.
not a presidency that inspires.
(ot: the roots rail musicians entertaining us were dave alvin, tom russell, laurie lewis & tom rozum, butch hancock and terry allen. heaven heaven heaven)
Shh- My teevee doesn’t know that there IS a fox network.
kirk - I think it was a post of Siun’s a month or so ago which featured heartrending tales from an Iraqi Doctor… this doctor had some strong condemnation of Americans, saying we are all stained with the blood of her people.
I agree, and it seemed like most of the commenters did, but a few made protestations of cleanliness, and it seems like the analogy is functional.
CTuttle @ 59
I want to put the fun back in fundalmentalism!
Holy shit.
Bush and Cheney meeting with Freepers at the Whitehouse.
I now declare that Godwin’s Law be revoked posthaste. These mofo’s are In The Bunker.
Their aint now way around it.
-GSD
BigMitch @ 55
Should she win the nomination (which I do not expect) and the election, I very much look forward to seeing her primaried in 2012 by Dennis Kucinich, among others. Dennis won’t have to re-write his platform one bit, unfortunately. We’ll still be in Iraq, we won’t have universal health care, we won’t have marriage equality, and we won’t be on the road to energy independence.
A Hillary presidency will be used by the rightwing to tarnish the Clinton brand irrevocably, with recession, stagflation, high unemployment, terror attacks, and war. Her presidency, through little fault of her own, will make Jimmy Carter’s look positively successful. And, like Carter, hers will be followed by a “morning in America” re-ascendance of the GOP.
ymmv
From the Face the Nation quote above
Ever hear of Camp Bondsteel?
Like husband, like wife
Darkblack made the Hannity Show!
That just made my night.
-GSD
sporkovat @ 63
Yes that was Maryum who is linked in this post. She is working on the Cholera problem in Iraq.
BigMitch @ 55
There’s gonna be a big market in “nose-holders.”
I think I’ll write me a business plan to corner it.
Do you think the Venture Capitalists will go for it?
Ummm-ummm good! A fortune to be made and it’s all mine. All mine, I tell you!
Along with my basic opposition to leaving any troops in Iraq (except Embassy if the Iraqis would like a US Embassy … hmmm) I am astonished at the idea that removing the combat troops but keeping support troops - to do all the things George already says they are there doing - is a good idea?
The insanity of this on so many levels just baffles me.
And yes, Richardson says no troops but Embassy - and is trying to get the others to answer how many and how long? so far, they all duck.
What is the best idea presented here on FDL?
Jonathan @ 29
Pumpkin head asked about Hsu. Now I ask about Jack Abernathy Ceo Fox TV. James Carville, Richard Ben-Veniste, Alan Dershowitz, Jamie Gorelick, Rupert Murdoch, Pfizer CEO, ceos and more ceos. A progressive Dem does not want the new Democratic president to be beholden to insurance, Rupert Murdoch and BigPharma. I mean really. She really has a lot in common with Hojoe.
TeddySanFran @ 66
Dayam, Teddy, quite the rosy optimist, eh…???
selise @ 51
The Rethugs cultivate outrage over a faux slur (MoveOn quoted Petraeus’ own troops)
And the Dem “leaders” can’t be bothered to attack the Rethugs over the GOP Brownshirts’ violent physical attacks against a dead veteran’s father and young women.
It’s Mourning in America - for the Republic.
TeddySanFran @ 49
Thank God and Goddess. I really want this country to move ahead.
so let me see if I get this… a wallow in a lagoon of cowshit is not as bad as a bellyflop into a trench full of pigshit, so clearly we must “hold our nose” and dive in the cowshit?
nonsense - if you are worried about your moral hygeine, you refrain from either one.
what is one translation of mealymouthed reduced troop levels proposals? = more Air Force missions = more indiscriminate death from the sky.
You support that? try looking at a few photos of the horrific, Guernica-like consequences of airstrikes on civilians, and proudly salute and say “My candidate did that! Go (D) Team!”
Siun @ 71
Can we get this asked at the next debate? When is the next debate, anyway?
katherine Graham Cracker @ 57
The OSM (Old-Stream Media) does things via scripts.
And the script they got says they gotta continue to “pretend” that Junya and the Repugs are not Weasels of the 1st Order (awarded by Dame Thatcher, doncha know?).
When the script changes, the cradle will fall.
Down comes Junya and unfortunately, that’s not all.
Hillary is no leader.. She is following a carefully failed DLC plan of catering to the corporate fascist right and ignoring war crimes, shredding of our constitution, sanity, principal, or reason in governance as a sitting senator.
I say impeach her now so she doesn’t have to face the Hague later with Bush and Cheney.
TeddySanFran @ 56
Is that the view of the Surgeon General. Should be.
You know sometimes you want to do a little reconnaisance. It’s sort of like a challenge to the one’s fortitude like holding breath underwater. About a minute or so is all I can take.
But noone warned me that I might try to slam my fist through the screen.
Hil was attracted to Bill because she saw he had what she wanted but lacked.
sporkovat @ 63
I agree too. The US population was silent while Irak’s civilian water treatment were destroyed in Gulf War I….and silent when US sanctions after GWI ensured the water supply (and health system) would stay broken.
After WWII America and the Allies hung German leaders for “collective punishemant” of innocent civilians.
Blood, blood, blood. Clings to every surface of every Senator who and Congressman who voted for GWII.
And every American who has not spoken out agaist these war crimes - and the US unprovoked war against a soveriegn nation for their oil.
Re the unavailability of chlorine in the wake of the ineffectual chlorine WMDs in semis. Can a modern city with piped water exist without chlorine for long? I’m afraid the casualties from the water supply contamination are higher than reported, especially among the elderly, very young and those already ill.
Thanks for this Siun. Du was talking to gor earlier tonight - says that the Cholera situation in Irak has all the makings of a major catastrophe and Maryam’s fears seem to be being borne out. This is from our latest sitrep (Number 13):
why stay in Iraq other then the OIL?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 13
Um.. please tell me that the shrubbies aren’t actually crazy enough to try and arrest Iran-shrub when he comes to New York are they?
TeddySanFran @ 78
TeddySF,
Ask questions here for the next debate which is Wednesday 9/26 on MSNBC with Mr Punkinhaid the “moderator.” (I know they won’t ask MY question)
punishment, not punishemant.
jeebus - wish I could get spell check to work with the blue “f”
Jonathan @ 72
that we needn’t be victims if we stand up, get informed, spread the word and ATTACK!
Ed*ard Teller @ 84
Cholera epidemic. It’s like the f*ing 19th c. and it’s all our fault. I mean that. I feel we Americans will bear a collective guilt for all this for a long time to come, even though we as citizens were powerless to stop the Chimp. Congress is another story.
O.K. so I am overwrought. G’night all.
CTuttle @ 39
Thanks. I will try to find Jerusalem post article. Haaretz should be following it too. Where did the overall quote come from?
The basic objections to the story in your quote make sense. And we know that there are elements in US and Lik*d that have been trying to scuttle any peaceful progress on anything with anybody. Spooky, scary and sad that high brass in militaries in both countries have been more voices of reason than high civiliarn leadership.
Very scary and very sad the the US media seems to have learned nothing. Or that their corporate masters seem willing to sign on to another disastrous war that I think would sink the GOP for decades should it occur. What will the media corporate masters do when they see their sugar daddy party sink like a stone in the next election after the Dunkirk on the Euphrates that I think will occur after an attack on Iran? Maybe they have gone insane.
Congress next year! that is our hope.
[Mod Note; edited to clear the moderation filters.]
kirk at 83
i screamed, literally, against the invasion of iraq before it occurred
don’t have blood on my hands but have some guilt about not trying to do more with friends and acquaintances to stop the invasion
but not too much guilt
i tried
Blub @ 87