Today I was reading an article in the NYT's science section, about the possible biological/evolutionary underpinnings of morality, and these two paragraphs jumped out at me:
...Dr. [Jonathan] Haidt combed the literature of anthropology and psychology for ideas about morality throughout the world. He identified five components of morality that were common to most cultures. Some concerned the protection of individuals, others the ties that bind a group together.
Of the moral systems that protect individuals, one is concerned with preventing harm to the person and the other with reciprocity and fairness. Less familiar are the three systems that promote behaviors developed for strengthening the group. These are loyalty to the in-group, respect for authority and hierarchy, and a sense of purity or sanctity.
I was struck by just how perfectly the "individual" moral systems describe progressive values, while the "group" moral systems describe conservative values. Progressives believe in equal opportunity and protecting the rights of the individual against more powerful entities. Conservatives are absolutely loyal to their leaders and frequently use religion to claim the moral high ground.
And yet... and yet... Why is it that the GOP is the party of selfishness and corruption and id incarnate? Shouldn't they be suppressing their individual egos for the good of the group? I can think of three possible explanations:
1) Their loyalty is to "the in-group," not to society as a whole. They pledge their allegiance to the Republican party or the conservative movement, not to the United States of America. So they are fiercely loyal to their party, but care not a whit for their country. And the only demands their party makes on them are "Stay in control" and "Get what you can."
2) While conservative and Republican leaders make a big deal about their religiosity, they use it solely to oppose individual freedoms and camouflage their own moral failings (see Swopa's previous post). Loyalty and respect for authority are the only group-oriented "values" that they truly possess.
3) Haidt's "group" moral systems are not actually moral, because they do not consider the morality of the group itself. The Nazis were the perfect embodiment of Haidt's vision of group morality, and they were evil incarnate. The pro-group values are a measure of unity and efficacy, not morality, and they are less than worthless if not combined with pro-individual values.
Progressives may disagree on a lot, but the core values that we share are those of protecting the little guy, while conservatives are unified in their dedication to protecting the big guy. Progressives want to look out for you; conservatives just want to keep an eye on you.
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Eli!
Eli!
Ann!
2?
Laura!
howdy Eli!
They’ve been informed downstairs; now back to read the post!
Howdy, LL!
Ann, you beat me upstairs ÅND down. Plus, I think I owe you a coke. Hi again Eli!
Eli, love your last paragraph. Boy, do the conservatives ever want to keep an eye on us — in so many ways!
Some argue that liberals or Progressives if you will, somehow took to heart what the New Testament teaches.
LoudounLib @ 10
I had to tie the title and the video together…
There’s also a difference between listening *to* your constituents and listening in on them.
Damn, Eli’s kicking butt around here lately. Nice post.
Thanks, Swopa!
Nicely done, Eli.
I love FDL.
Do we want to give to progressive candidates?
Focus your anger.
Get pissed.
Fight against the mold.
“I was struck by just how perfectly the ‘individual’ moral systems describe progressive values, while the ‘group’ moral systems describe conservative values.”
Herein lies the crux of the problem…! The chasm…!!! 8-)
Thanks, BigMitch!
I do love the Science News…
Jonathan @ 16
Or, as Mr. Tweedy in “Chicken Run” puts it, “Mrs. Tweedy, the chickens is revolting!”
“Less familiar are the three systems that promote behaviors developed for strengthening the group. These are loyalty to the in-group, respect for authority and hierarchy, and a sense of purity or sanctity.”
That reminds me of the authoritarian personality that John Dean describes in his book, Conservatives Without Conscience. Maybe not exactly the same thing, but similar.
Conyers ,Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties Commmittee hearing on C-Span 1 as we speak.
CTuttle @ 17
The ironic part goes both ways. The thing about the “individual” moral values is that they’re about how to treat *other* people, so they promote selflessness rather than selfishness.
Read John Dean’s “Conservatives Without Conscience.”
It looks like 25% of the population is hard-wired to be an authoritarian leader or follower (and in US political terms, Republican).
No coincidentally, look at Bush’s poll numbers.
In effect, if he dips below 25%, he is running negative to his natural starting point.
Toby Wollin @ 19
Right on!
neurophius @ 20
I actually did a quick search to see if Dean referenced Haidt’s research, but I didn’t see anything.
albert fall @ 23
Bingo
albert fall @ 23
Probably because he’s not being authoritarian enough…
I wish John Dean were lurking tonight, maybe he could make a comment!
Hey, Eli! Nicely put, sir.
Hey, Teddy! Thanks!
Of course, I am looking forward to the inevitable conservative hand-wringing about how I compared them to Nazis…
Eli @ 22
True, that’s why greed is a sin…!!! 8-)
I see repukes as simply selfish people. They care first about themselves, next about their family then the organization which brings and protects their wealth.
The philosophy of the party is unfettered free market let me make it and keep it and who needs to worry about the slackers approach to the world.
It is a Moore said they are the me me me people and the progressive seem to be the we approach.
Progessive see society like a ship with a crew.. all jobs are important to get there… some are cooks, some are nvaigators, some helmsman, etc, but all are in it together. Winger see themselves on a cruise ship and everyone working there is to serve them and make their time pleasurable and comfortable.
It’s not too complicated.
Me or We
albert fall @ 23
Alfred, have you seen any current polls on Death Cheney you could also share? Tanks!
John Dean is one of the very few people I look up to these days. Pardon him.
Eli @ 31
Well, after all, that is not an appropriate subject to discuss on this blog…
Eli @ 27
There’s always the 15% or so who follow Coulter, Limbaugh and assorted fauna and believe San Fran should be blown up for being too liberal, and openly advocate for most of the people here to be designated enemy combatants and dealt with accordingly. At least I hope that’s only 15%…
Eli, that’s real interesting!
All “groups” of life that live in herds or flocks, or whatever society, have a hierarchy. The lead male fights its way to the top using force or manipulation. The leader “appears” to lead to the necessities of life, i.e., food and water. Under the leader, are those that are comfortable at their level, because the leader lets them have perks, like eating first or drinking first. The females control procreation - they usually breed with the leaders. Once they have offspring, they sometimes (except in cardinals and swans, who partner for life) reject their partner in favor of raising their offspring, and the power positions change. The most powerful breeding females rule, because they are defending the young, and end up dominating the lead males. In any case, even in bees, they all protect the queen. What does it all mean? Democrats want to protect the “little guy”, Repubs want to fall in line behind the “big guy”, but in order to do that, they need to keep an eye on you, because they are always afraid the little guy will rise up and take their position in the hierarchy. They are always afraid.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
But, they didn’t…!!!
I like your post very much, Eli. I think that it might be helpful to distinguish between conservatives and what might be called authoritarians or totalitarians. The latter group being those folks who–whatever their place on the spectrum, seek to control others, both within and without of their group.
The reason I suggest this is, in keeping with LHP’s Sunday post, I hope we can keep a channel open between us progressives and our conservative non-authoritarian brethren, who are more apt to listen to us if they’re not feeling beat up and sneered at.
Not all conservatives are authoritarians–or vice-versa, for that matter!
i think b/c of the onslaught of rightwing media across the land most people have access to only winger opinion thus feeding this authoritarian streak…i dont understand how any reasonable adult would want to be watched 24/7…and willingly give up civil rights….ughhhhhh
SanderO @ 33
Or, as Martin Buber put it, “I and Thou” rather than “I and You”. The GOP/conservatives feel it is ok to betray the trust and beliefs of groups of people for the goal of getting those people to vote for them so that they stay in power and enrich themselves. They are using those people - so to a certain extent, they see them as things - what Buber felt was “I and You”. Liberal/Progressives look for people who have natural affinity for core beliefs that are shared among the group so that the whole group can move foreward - that is what Buber referred to as “I and Thou” - in that everyone looks at everyone else as equally cherished and appreciated.
SanderO @ 33
Well, yeah, that works too. Republicans are exploiters and looters and hypocritical moral scolds.
If all in my party were progressive; what would the world be like?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 44
Quieter??? *g*
Troll trash warning on 45
Laura Doty @ 40
This is true, to a degree. Kirk called me out for a similar generalization about Republicans. Unfortunately, principled Republicans and conservatives seem to be very hard to find these days. But they could just be laying low…
John Dean’s book is based on Bob Altmeyer’s The Authoratarians and it is required reading.
While I have no problem with the structure as posted, I think it also overlooks an important dimension: courage and fear.
It’s hard to deny that conservatism is a philosophy of fear: any change is viewed in terms of its worst possible outcomes, and opposed. Progressivism is a philosophy of courage: risk is seen as a necessary step to a reward.
The tribalism of conservatism is also fear-based: the Other is a threat. Progressivism demonstrates the courage to embrace the Other.
Finally conservative fear leads to disrespect by those in power towards those NOT in power: those not in power cannot be trusted to make decisions, fear suggests their decisions would be disastrous, hence those not in power must be stupid. Conservative fear suggests that those in a position of power must have achieved that power through merit, since the natural superiority of the individual is the only guarantee against the fear that one might make a disastrous mistake - a point of view that matches nicely with the sense of sanctity in the main article.
Progressives, meanwhile, exhibit courage both by showing faith in democratic processes - trusting your neighbor to make good decisions rather than fearing bad ones - and by recognizing their own fallibility, and being willing to consider that they have made mistakes. This makes progressives appear less certain, in direct correlation to the degree that progressives are less self-deluded.
Conservatism is the philosophy of fear: progressivism is the philosophy of courage. Now if only we could get some courageous Democrats to take a stand on progressive issues, maybe we could get somewhere…
Melanie @ 49
John Dean’s book or Bob Altmeyer’s book?
moving on…. the world would be more diplomatic for sure…
Who’s game? Hmmm… Eli? It’s your party!!! 8-)
juslin @ 41
That is probably the single most important factor in everything we are all experiencing. The “afeared” leaders have put in place worker bees, happy to work for there perks, in order to survive, and will sell their souls in order to do so. Thank Goddess, that a lot of that has started to change with the internet, Democracy Now (kudos to Amy Goodman, because she was there first), Olbermann, Stewart, Colbert, and AirAmerica as examples. We’ve come a long way, and I think we are prevailing.
Eli @ 31
Bill Orally rode that one outta the barn; FDL has a lifetime exemption from Godwin’s law now.
Albatross @ 49
I’m sure there’s all kinds of dimensions that can be considered; this was just the one that crossed my transom today.
The fear element also explains the bullying and bluster and endless need to demonstrate toughness through violence and cruelty.
Eli @ 48
They’re likely to feel a tad shy these days! Kindness may bring them ’round!
neurophius @ 46
?
CTuttle @ 52
Eh?
My comment at 46 can be deleted now.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 57
It’s gone, the mods are on the job.
TeddySanFran @ 55
Is TRex gonna use OralB to floss his teeth tonite??? ;-)
As I read this paragraph, I couldn’t help but think about my theory on what’s wrong with the Democrats now. This theory came from the recent FISA vote that caused the Dems to capitulate without even trying to do their job, and ended up giving up our civil liberties even more than before. I couldn’t believe with the slim margins we have in the Congress, that 57 members could atually vote to betray their constituents like that. But my theory is that Dems lack party loyalty, party discipline, and unity of purpose. Until they somehow forge a better bond that includes these three qualities, I’m afraid we better prepare ourselves to lose a lot more. I’m just wondering if there isn’t some magic formula to produce the desire to forge that better bond. I thought it might be anger, with an underlying desire to fix what’s wrong with our political system, but there may be a number of tipping points.
Sorry to leave this promising discussion, but I’m off to the dojo to practice bringing mine attackers into harmony. Peace everyone.
newspaperbrat @ 34
I haven’t seen any recent Cheney polls, but about a year ago I think he was running 11%, just ahead of Satan and just behind the annoying guy in the Burger King mask.
Who’s looking out for you?
That’s easy.
The President.
Laura Doty @ 64
Kick *ss, Ma’am!!!
Ann in AZ @ 62
I really *wanted* to divvy the moral values up between Democratic and Republican, but I just couldn’t. Not without a lot of caveats and qualifiers on the Democratic side. Sad.
neurophius @ 61
*pout* We can hone our skills…!!! 8-(
I would describe myself as Bland-American.
albert fall @ 64
Dude, I want the Burger King as my president. And Subservient Chicken could be his VP.
Eli @ 55
You’re doubtless correct. Another dimension that comes to mind is the role of Projection in the conservative mind. What they fear in themselves, they project onto their opponents and criticize. The all-too-common hypocrisy of anti-gay conservatives being caught in homosexual relations is not so much hypocrisy as self-loathing combined with projection.
In the case of bullying and cruelty, a lot of that is in fact self-loathing and projection being inflicted on some hapless target - can anyone doubt after watching him that the person Bill O’Reilly hates the most is Bill O’Reilly? And Bush’s well-known bellicosity is no less a product of his own realization that, even as President of the United States, he remains an unlettered loser of the first caliber.
CTuttle @ 68
I didn’t even get to see it :’(
OT, but things seem to be heating up for the Alabama AG, who filed the complaint with the justice department that landed a former alabama governor in prison for 7 years. KKKarl was involved…as were two DOJ prosecutors.
twȝk @ 72
Didn’t miss a thing. Just a random piece of nasty behavior.
CTuttle @ 61
My understanding is that Lady Jane gets first swat at BigGiantHead; she was directly insulted, after all. But she was traveling today. The front-pagers are all chomping at the bit, as you can imagine.
Eli, they are like Nazis. They are paranoid and power driven, dellusional, driven by ideology, and will go to “any” lengths, including killing millions of innocent people and justifying it. Bush’s family background is “grounded” in Nazi sympathizing - Prescott Bush. It is what it is. Call it whatever you like. In the 1930’s it was called “Nazism”…now, same thing, different name. Screw sympathizer O’Lielly and his stupid, unwarranted characterization of Jane’s advice to the Dems to not repeat the Republican talking points. Jane is brave. Jane is the antithesis to a Nazi. These people act out of fear, like a very hungry dog (for oil) that is a fear-biter at the same time; it destroys anyone that rivals it.
twȝk @ 73
Dang, I had to stop and ask permission, and, *poof* there it went!!! (Note to self: Don’t mess with the Mods!) *g*
TeddySanFran @ 75
Not me; I suck at the attack stuff.
Great post Eli. Love this part!
Toby Wollin @ 74
ah, glad i missed it then, this topic is more interesting.
LS @ 76
They’re not Nazis, but they’re definitely on the same side of the authoritarian continuum.
TeddySanFran @ 76
That, I’ll put in the bank!!! 8-)
No, but I think it’s actually enough to say that the difference is between the Democratic Progressive’s “we” society and the Republican Conservative’s “me” society. I think that says it all.
Thanks, Betsy!
Eli @ 81
ooo, why is it I have going through my head that bit from “Dune” — “Fear is the mind-killer.”
TexBetsy @ 80
Howdy, Ma’am!!! Is Cassie bogged down with homework?
Eli @ 47
i don’t think there are very many principled politicians in general… but i do think the Rs have really suffered lately because more of their non-authoritarian pols have been rejected or have left the party (see Jeffords).
in our past, authoritarians have lived on the left side of the spectrum too… but now they sure do seem to have piled up on the far right. and the conservatives haven’t organized themselves to reject the ideology of the authoritarians in their midst. i hope they do that…
CTuttle @ 86
Yep. Just look at her facebook mood.
Toby Wollin @ 85
Conservatism is the little-death that brings total obliteration…
LS @ 76
And just think of what the nazis could have done with things like electronic surveillance! I’ll always remember my dear sweet neighbor, died a few years ago, who had concentration camp tattoos on his arm.
I don’t think Democrats should worry about Republican talking point and just say what they think.
TexBetsy @ 89
Hah, That I shall…!!!
I’m sorry, I forgot. What is the War on Terror about?
The starry-eyed (*_*)
Those who spy (@_@)
The money minded ($_$)
The sleepers (=_=)
The core percenters (%_%)
The unseeing (^_^)
The true believers ( _ )
The empty ciphers (0_0)
The evil pounders (#_#)
And the rest (&_&)
A Pictographic Rendition of Republicans Val-yahs. For your viewing pleasure.
Their loyalty isn’t so strong either: Look at the treatment of Craig. Look how Bush’s enablers write “I didn’t do it” tell-alls once they retire.
Litany of Fear *grins* One of the more interesting Dune tidbits i’ve ever known. Useful too, if you’ve the gumption to use it personaly.
thanks to repug rule fear is the mantra…FDR told us the ONLY thing to fear is FEAR itself!! how quickly we’ve forgotten and so here we are…in a word - fucked!!
Everythingseemssoneat @ 93
scaring you
Laura @ 40,
I agree. This area of Ohio is pretty religious, has some of the other things that Ian described, and for many years put great Democratic senators and congressmen in office.
Dayam, She doesn’t mince words…!!!