James Risen and Eric Lichtblau, the New York Times reporters who originally broke the warrantless domestic spying story, report further on the recent legislation gutting the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Their report on two recent meetings between Bush Administration/Department of Justice lawyers, concerned members of Congress and others opposed to the FISA gutting have confirmed that the statute the Administration stampeded Congress into passing goes well beyond the so-called intelligence "gap" reportedly created by the FISA Court when it declared that foreign-to-foreign communications routed through the US could not be monitored except under FISA's warrant requirements.
Broad new surveillance powers approved by Congress this month could allow the Bush administration to conduct spy operations that go well beyond wiretapping to include — without court approval — certain types of physical searches on American soil and the collection of Americans’ business records, Democratic Congressional officials and other experts said. . . .The dispute illustrates how lawmakers, in a frenetic, end-of-session scramble, passed legislation they may not have fully understood and may have given the administration more surveillance powers than it sought.
It also offers a case study in how changing a few words in a complex piece of legislation has the potential to fundamentally alter the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, a landmark national security law. . . .
Several legal experts said that by redefining the meaning of “electronic surveillance,” the new law narrows the types of communications covered in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, known as FISA, by indirectly giving the government the power to use intelligence collection methods far beyond wiretapping that previously required court approval if conducted inside the United States.
These new powers include the collection of business records, physical searches and so-called “trap and trace” operations, analyzing specific calling patterns.
I don't know which claim is less credible: Is it the Administration's argument, which Risen/Lichtblau report without comment, that they never intended such an overly broad gutting of FISA and do not intend to interpret the new statute that way, even though we know the DNI McConnell reportedly agreed to a narrower statute worked out with Congressional Democrats, only to have that version replaced by a much broader bill written by the White House? Or is it the Democrats claiming they are surprised that the Administration so badly misled them? How many examples of total duplicity does it take before the Democrats learn they cannot trust this Administration on any matter and should never cave to any Administration threat, especially when Constitutional rights are directly at stake?
The facts reported by Risen/Lichtblau are appalling on several levels. Above all, they confirm that even ignoring the leadership failures to coordinate their strategies in the final days before passage, Congressional Democrats were recklessly irresponsible in hastily passing a bill they failed to read and understand and still cannot explain to the public. They passed it even though they knew that the bill's subject matter involved critical issues of Constitutional rights, individual and business privacy, and problematic domestic spying by the NSA, an organization that was never meant to spy on American citizens.
The Democrats also knew the Administration's history in willfully violating the warrant requirements of FISA, and they knew the Administration has yet to explain what it is doing and how it can be legally justified. They knew the Administration had engaged in activities that were so blatantly unlawful that the previous Attorney General, the acting Attorney General and the Director of the FBI were prepared to resign if the activities continued. Yet knowing all this, they passed a bill written entirely by the Administration and never vetted through hearings that gutted FISA, a 28 year old statute that had been carefully crafted and updated after extensive public hearings. They recklessly gutted a statute designed to protect our rights against government abuses that had occurred during the Nixon and prior administrations, abuses that, given the Bush/Cheney regime's history and statements, the Democrats knew were probably at risk here.
Second, the article confirms the suspicions that the Administration knowingly misled Congress, claiming a limited FISA amendment was necessary to correct the foreign-to-foreign intelligence gap when in fact they knew that the bill language they drafted went far beyond that limited fix. The Administration denies it would ever interpret the statute in ways that pushed an extreme view of executive power; are we to believe this from an administration that has never held back on pushing extreme views of executive powers?
Third, the article reveals that in the Administration's view, there never was a foreign-to-foreign intelligence gap at all. The Bush attorneys told meeting attendees they believed that the President had inherent Constitutional Authority to gather foreign-to-foreign intelligence without complying with either the new statute or FISA's warrant requirements. This means that if Congress had done nothing to change FISA provisions that arguably limit foreign to foreign surveillance, the Administration believed it could have continued warrantless surveillance of foreign-to-foreign communications, just as it had been doing all along without Congressional objection. (There is a separate question whether statutes other than FISA restricted the executive's authority to conduct strictly foreign communications, but even it that is true, it would not require that FISA be gutted.)
To be sure, the FISA Court had reportedly held that foreign-to-foreign communications that are routed through the US fell under the FISA definition of "electronic surveillance" that triggers FISA's warrant requirements. But it can be argued that this result was a consequence of technological changes that Congress never considered or intended. FISA was designed to deal with "electronic surveillance" of communications in which at least one party was lawfully in the US -- the protections were meant for persons in the US, not persons outside the US. If Congress never intended exclusively foreign-to-foreign communications to be the types of "electronic surveillance" Congress intended to regulate through FISA, that fact would seem to affect the arguments about the President's inherent Article II powers.
So I'd like to see more legal discussion of this issue. The argument would be that under Youngstown, where Congress intended to regulate in an area and did so, such as by stating expressly that FISA's warrant provisions are the exclusive method when dealing with electronic surveillance of communications involving persons within the US, the argument for inherent Presidential power to do otherwise -- without a FISA warrant -- is very weak. But where there is no clear indication that Congress intended that result to apply to foreign-to-foreign communications, the arguments for inherent Presidential powers is much stronger, because there is no clear Congressional intent to limit the President's authority.
To be sure, given the ambiguity, a limited FISA carve-out for such foreign-to-foreign communications would have been appropriate -- not that the Administration would have accepted such a limited fix; it rejected that during the discussions with Congress. That limited fix would have provided clarity and avoided dispute and legal risks. But it is simply not true that the Administration believed intelligence gathering of strictly foreign communications could not occur. The Administration's argument that we were confronted with a dangerous gap in our ability to conduct foreign intelligence, an argument leaked to the media by the Administration and Republican Congressmen and which was used to stampede Congress into enacting another unconstitutional law, gutting long-time and carefully thought out protections for individual rights, was simply a lie. How many times will Congressional Democrats allow themselves to be stampeded by an Administration that simply cannot be trusted to deal in good faith on anything that matters?
If this analysis is correct, it may be that the best course of action in fixing this mess is to do nothing; let the awful statute expire, rather than engage an untrustworthy Administration in negotiations that could extend the worst provisions further. The Democrats could attempt to pass a "clean," limited fix and nothing more, but there seems little hope that the White House or their Congressional supporters would agree to pass it. The Democrats should have the good sense to say, "fine; we tried, but you're asking that we do something that violates the Constitution and we won't even consider that. Let the law expire."
Until then, we have a another unconscionable mess to clean up when the lawless Bush/Cheney/Gonzales regime is finally removed from office. Don't count on it happening before then, because nothing truly important to the public welfare that requires the regime to stop its lawlessness and lying is likely to occur as long as this dishonest gang remains in office.
For other useful background and perspectives, start with emptywheel here and the links at The Next Hurrah, Anonymous Liberal here, as well as Marty Lederman here and here, and Glenn Greenwald here.
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
Scarecrow! caw caw!
Scarecrow!
Good morning Scarecrow!
Morning S’crow
Uh, Scarecrow, in the title, wouldn’t that be “duplicity?”
I’m trying not to think too much about it, it fills me with despair. We are becoming East Germany day by day…
Congress will yet again allow themselves to be bullied into extending (and worsening) it.
Wanna bet?
montag @ 5
Probably. Dublicity means twice the lying.
But I’ll fix.
No, that’s a sucker bet.
I am hoping the Democrats are getting an earful about their rush to adjourn. As I recall Risen came out with an article a full week before the duplicitous deed.They cannot plead ignorance.
per Greenwald’s article (last “here” in post),
sure wish Dodd were climbing higher in the polls.
Seems like he would actually do something to
restore integrity to due process and behave
as a leader entrusted with the Constitution
should behave.
Does anyone else sense Dodd’s brand of genuine commitment
out of the other candidates?
What I find genuinely curious is that, in the case of strictly foreign intelligence, the standards for obtaining a warrant are much lower than for domestic criminal warrants (and this would seem to be borne out by overwhelming tendency of the FISA court to approve government warrants in the last thirty years).
So, why, ultimately, does it matter that foreign communications are routed through a U.S. switch, when the warrant process enables taps?
What the hell was Congress thinking in the first place? FISA is pretty much wide open in this regard, and the time limits to apply for warrants after the fact has been extended in other legislation, as I recall.
It seems quite clear that the administration has been determined to do away with the FISA warrant process entirely, and that means, quite simply, they are up to no good at all. Given all the extra storage and retrieval capacity that NSA has been adding over the last couple of years, it seems obvious that what they really want to do is just snag everything in the pipes and sort it out later.
Yo Congress: would you please READ this stuff before you vote on it? Especially when you are ripping up the Constitution? Thank you.
George Bush is a voyeur.
With Rove almost gone to do dirty GOP election missions, which means Cheney is taking over the reigns of gov’t completely, wonder how long before we’re in Iran. Up to our neck. Iran is coming. Make no mistake.
Congress will cave - again - because they haven’t figured out yet, in spite of everything (including being told what will happen if they cave) that standing up to Bushco will help them at the next election as well as in those polls they’re so fond of citing.
I’d like to see a gigantic political demonstration at every federal office building in the country, all on the same day, preferably at the same time, with people making noise (clapping in unison, stamping feet in unison, pounding pitchforks and torches on the ground in unison). Just to make them see how many people are against the way things are being run. (If it takes people there with boomboxes playing ‘We Will Rock You’, then get people to do it. It’s the noise level and the feeling of unity.)
montag @ 12
The Administration was hardly crippled, even under FISA. Note that we have never been given a satisfactory answer to the question, “why can’t you comply with the warrant requirements (and its delay variations) already in FISA.”
But I’m making a different argument, though I’m not a practicing attorney and certainly not a Constitutional lawyer. Some very smart person may explain why this argument is all wet.
OKK –yep
AP - American forces are tracking about 50 members of an elite Iranian force who have crossed the border into southern Iraq to train Shiite militia fighters, a top U.S. general said Sunday. The French foreign minister, meanwhile, arrived in Baghdad on a groundbreaking visit after years of icy relations with the United States over Iraq.
I can only accept the “I didn’t know it was thaaat bad” so many times. It was the Dem’s responsibilty to know what they voted for, the R’s I’ve completely given up on, if Bush asks, they just cave. I have no doubt the R’s would vote to make Congress honorary only (as long as they could keep some perks and pork).
off topic, jackaroyd and christy, here’s a pic I took of a green footed booby and it’s chick a few years ago… Green foot
AnnieW @ 20
I don’t regard discussions of green-footed boobies as OT.
AZ Matt @ 14
He best loves to watch torture snuff vids with Rove… Until recently that is, Rove is gone.
Scarecrow @ 18
I guess I’m belaboring the obvious again–perhaps my argument predates even the initial Patriot Act. What’s been going on for six years, at least, with regard to intelligence law has nothing to do with the logistical and bureaucratic errors leading to 9/11, and yet, yelling, “booga booga!” works like a charm, every time. *sigh*
Shorter Bush administration: All your data belongs to us.
If the Dems were smart, they won’t commit any vital campaign strategies to e-mail. What we’re looking at here is a virtual watergate break in.
How many examples of these “mistakes” does it take for people to realize that the Democrats are just as complicit in bringing about the tragic situation this country is in as the Cheney Admin?
And that their leading Presidential candidates, if elected, most likely would not end the war, restore habeas corpus, and roll back the abrogation of the Constitution?
I thought the cleanup was supposed to begin when the (D)’s retook control of Congress?
If you ponder just the hypothetical that the (D) Party is actually working in concert with the neo-con (R) Party to consolidate a corporatist, authoritarian State in the husk of the American Constitutional Republic, does this provide a working explanatory framework for all these ‘mistakes’, missed opportunities, and procedural kabuki?
Oh, and by the way, it would only take 41 Senators to end the war with a courageous filibuster.
And it would only take a simple majority to pass a Resolution of Impeachment in the House.
Let them stand up and be counted, or be considered complicit.
This legislation needs to be trashed- no one in congress covered themselves with glory in this botched 11th hour bill. The only good news is that it has a sunset provision- so it requires affirmative action by both the congress and the white house to keep it going.
Dems can threaten to let the thing die if clusterfuck doesn’t go along with something sane.
Just what is needed- another bullshit theoretical conversation! Come on folks- wake the hell up. What does the chimp have to say to make it clear- HE WILL DO WHATEVER HE WANTS TO DO AND ANYONE THAT WANTS TYO CHALLENGE HIM CAN GO SCREW THEMSELVES!!!!!!!!
That is all and you all can talk till you turn blue!
That is why he has to be impeached now. Not later, not tomorrow , not next week but right now. Reid should call congress back and initiate actions need to Impeach this lying son of a bitch.
I saw the thread from the night they passed this.
If all of you knew that this bill was dangerous and you knew it had stuff in it that wasn’t necessary, why didn’t congress know?
rwcole @ 26
Nah, they can threaten all they like. Then we’ll have another unspecified terrorist threat against Congress and they’ll cave again.
SnarKassandra @ 29
They probably did know, Cassie. What’s going on now is some rather inelegant and obvious ass-covering.
DiFi’s was the worst.
I need to be clear on this. Are we saying that the ‘greatest’ nation on earth, chock full of rugged individualist, Republicans, and conservatives, and fanatically protective of their privacy is worried about a silly little thing like FISA?
AZ Matt @ 15
let’s think it through, shall we?
With the limitless types technology (to wit, the slip the other day about wireless wiretapping surveillance — was that a reference to this?)
and
that the EQ of those with access to use it is apparently far outstripped
by the IQ of the technology, (what BoR?)…
sometimes it seems that the endgame cannot be something along the lines of
satellites down or off — ain’t gonna happen
instead, we’re all gonna have to get real comfy with
Teh Nekkid — ultimate transparency.
in the meantime, it’s a hoot to think that someone would find
my conversations with my cats anything resembling national interest.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 33
Umm, I don’t think Republicans’ privacy is in jeopardy here….
thanks scarecrow. great post.
they do know this. it’s just that the number of dems in congress that act like they care, is very, very small. (see jeralyn’s important post on this). she tells the story of another last minute push to undermine our rights just before the august recess, this time by a democratic president aided by democratic congressmembers. that time the conservative republicans were successful in pushing back.
i hope everyone will read jeralyn’s reminder of what happened in 1996. her conclusion:
Scarecrow -
What connection, if any, do you see in the timing of the FISA stampede and Karl Rove’s impending departure from the White House?
Want to pick on someone? Pick on Reid for allowing Lieberman to pluck the fruits (caucus, etc.) of the Democratic vine. And of course there are some very bad Dems out there.
Lieberman, appearing on CBS’s Face the Nation, said, “I think we’ve got to be prepared to take aggressive military action against the Iranians to stop them from killing Americans in Iraq. And to me that would include a strike over the border into Iran, where we have good evidence that they have a base at which they are training these people coming back into Iraq to kill our soldiers.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....60705.html
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 36
See how much y’all are teaching me about how to ask good questions!
Once a technology exists that provides useful information to the govt.- the odds are that it will be used. It would require an organization with 100 times the strength of the ACLU to stop it. The ingredients of a police state are already available. We will have one soon.
Records of fingerprints
Cameras in public places
Satelites
Govt. access to all forms of electronic communication and financial records.
The govt. trusts itself to do the right thing.
In just over a year we will probably have a dem in the White House- goopers should consider that.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 36
I don’t see one. Marcy probably had the best speculation on timing/reasons — he may be one or two steps ahead of two or three different investigations.
I agree with perris that the question of *business* privacy might interest a lot of mainstream Republicans.
The government has all their business data and communications and is prepared to sell to the highest bidder. Ok, strictly speaking not the government, but only because they put it out to contractors.
Does anyone listen to Lieberman who doesn’t ALREADY agree with him? Not exactly an opinion changer in my opinion.
rwcole @ 39
What leads you to believe that this isn’t already a full-fledged police state? I’m asking this sincerely - not from a point of reference of sarcasm.
montag @ 12
I did some research into this at the time when NYT first exposed it, and it’s even worse than an “overwhelming tendency.” Before GWB’s illegal program began (or at least, when it began to the best of the public’s knowledge), the FISA Court had approved every single warrant request made of it since its inception. There were two (I believe that’s the right number, iirc) that were initially rejected, but approved upon revision.
How badly did this administration’s shit have to stink for the FISA Court–which had been rubberstamping requests for almost 30 years beforehand, ultimately giving the green light to every single one–to start rejecting them?
Scarecrow @ 17
Classified.
N
I don’t yet see people who disagree with the administration disappearing in the middle of the night never to be seen again. If this were a full blown police state- it would be happening.
One aspect of this law and the implications of the law being over looked is that of plain old fashioned industrial espionage. The administration is now empowered to alert cronies of the adminstration insiders to what their competition is doing, when, and how. Of course we know they wouldn’t ever do that either. Now excuse me while I stand up and let the monkees fly out of my ass.
rwcole @ 46
Unless they are in Iraq or any muslim nation and they disagree. Then they are enemy combatants.
If the police state comes, it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a bible.
The FISA “thing” is just another “shiny object”. We need to focus on getting these criminals out of office. From TPM:
But just as striking as the sloppy lawmaking was the administration’s response.
…Bush administration officials have already signaled that, in their view, the president retains his constitutional authority to do whatever it takes to protect the country, regardless of any action Congress takes. At a tense meeting last week with lawyers from a range of private groups active in the wiretapping issue, senior Justice Department officials refused to commit the administration to adhering to the limits laid out in the new legislation and left open the possibility that the president could once again use what they have said in other instances is his constitutional authority to act outside the regulations set by Congress.
That’s the important thing to remember: the White House considers the legislation “just advisory,” so it doesn’t much matter whether or not lawmakers gave up too much authority to the president. He’s going to do what he wants to do.
–Steve Benen
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/024639.php
rwcole @ 49
We have a book about that!
rwcole @ 46
Maybe they have disappeared in plain sight - like a Congress that approves anti-Constitutional legislation without any apparent reason for doing so….
We’ve had the age of reason, the age of enlightenment and so on. But this has got to be the age of hypocrisy. Thinking about Rudy the G and the GOP family values thingy here.
And while I’m on Rudy’s case (and secrecy), I think I’d like to know a lot more about Giuliani’s super-secret business dealings. Calling for Bernie here.
Helpless Dancer @ 24
If the Dems were smart they’d begin making a BIG STINK claiming that this is being used to spy on THEM.
That the voters will understand.
The police state will protect us from the enemies of the flag and the bible- dirty moslem hippies.
Apparently Harry Reid listens to Joe Lieberman.
Most americans could care less about interception of messages from outside the country…They’ve never BEEN outside the country- let alone called there. It’s damned hard to get the general public to take this one seriously. For that reason, we’ll probably lose.
SnarKassandra @ 29
and add in selise at 35
then try my new framework for a fit … they knew it would be bad, but not how bad, and they didn’t care.
This whole “they were afraid the meanies would call them soft on Terra” figleaf is less and less functional, with the Dear Leader at under 30% approval rating, and rampant electoral gains looking un-fuck-up-able for 08.
But we know the Cheneyites are, shall we say, very strongly motivated to retain their hold on power, and are acting rather blase about their dismal poll numbers, at least in the Presidential race…
perhaps the (D) hare should not be relaxing and coasting into 08 on the momentum of having passed a minimum wage bill and having initiated some investigations that are predictably stonewalled?
perhaps impeachment proceedings are the only way they will get to grasp the levers of executive branch power? could they be motivated by that?
rwcole @ 26
The bill may expire, but as I understand it the targets of the surveillance brought in under this iteration of the the bill will not expire.
Anyone have anything on this?
Gotta say it. The planet needs Gore. This nation needs Gore. Gore in ‘08.
Steve Pordon @ 45
As I recall, there were four turned down, and two of those were eventually approved later, out of something like 24,000.
Quibble with the words, but I thought “overwhelming tendency” pretty well covered it. :)
It’s not an idle question, though, about why warrants are so onerous to this administration. The implementation of national security letters is a subset of this phenomenon, and the volume of those has been truly extraordinary. That suggests that the breadth of their indifference is extraordinary, as well.
M’self, I think we’re probably not going to find out the details of all this until long after I’m dead, but those details will show that this administration’s fanatical determination to keep Republicans in power forever also extended to using the intelligence services for domestic political purposes. The one thing these guys really learned from Nixon, Watergate and FISA is, “don’t get caught.”
SnarKassandra @ 28
in many cases it may just be that the leadership didn’t give them time to read it (or have their staff study it). for example, on friday afternoon (aug 3) the house leadership brought up h.res.600 (the rule to allow voting on a fisa bill - but not specifiying which one) for a vote before they could even tell the congress which bill it would be (or what would be in it). it was such a fracked up process, those of us who were watching it were shocked and outraged.
bottom line though - at least the leadership knew (and the people on the intelligence committees). from them, the “we didn’t know” is an attempt to disown responsibility…. sorta like when alberto gonzoles doesn’t “remember”.
GW Clusterfuck has been rollin hisself up a giant power snowball. If a dem moves into the White House- the snowball will be there for em to use.
montag @ 34
I do, when things happen like the GOP controlled Senate Judiciary marching in lock-step with war lies… It happens for a reason: Carrot and Stick, Rove style with Hoover era (plus 25) intel resources.
I don’t think that people here understand the careful consideration that our extremely legitimate chief executive is giving to operating within Constitutional limits.
You see, Bush is operating under the precisely crafted Theory Of We Get To Do Whatever The Fuck We Want, and so he’s doing whatever the fuck he wants. Simple, when looked at in the right way.
A few questions about the act:
1. Is “physical search” as contemplated in the law a term of art? What does it mean? Luggage? DNA? Body cavities?
2. Is the act’s sunset provision really for only six months, or can it be extended to a year?
3. And a more meta question: I’ve always understood that Reid was a master of the legislative art and the arcana of Senate procedure. How on earth did he come to pass a Republican bill?
Finally, I think the post missed the quote of the day from an unnamed administration official: “The intent here was pure.”
Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!
sangemon @ 59
Marcy has said that one of the provisions allows Gonzales to authorize surveillance for up to a year. It this is correct, arguably some surveillance could start the day before the statute expires, and continue after that for some time, under the expired bill’s authority.
Scarecrow @ 8:58 am -
I agree with your comment and suspect that he will be embroiled in more than three investigations after Congress returns from its August recess.
SnarKassandra @ 28
sort of reminds me of the debate going on now about WMD. Dems trusted and believed the Busher and lots of us outside didnt.
N=1 @ 52
hundreds of muslim immigrants were disappeared right after 911. i think (hope?) most of them were seen again - even if they were deporting illegally and to the wrong country.
so the US can surveil, wiretap - whatever -anyone who isnt a US citizen in the US without a warrant. And UK can do the same to US citizens in the US…then MI6 MI5 - whatever - shares with CIA, RNC–no more privacy any way any how.
lambert strether @ 65
Several quotes in the article could use a point by point rebuttal. It’s written from the point of view that everyone was working in good faith, so gosh, we didn’t mean for this to happen, and we’d never exploit it.
Attention Democratic party:
I’m watching. I watched as you caved on the war votes, helped to pass the MCA, and with the FISA vote. I also heard you when you said that you don’t have to worry about losing the progressive vote because we “have nowhere else to go”.
Well, screw you. If you want my vote and support, I need to see two things. A serious push to repeal the MCA, and to let this FISA expansion expire. If those don’t happen, then I’ll damn well find somewhere else to go, because to continue to support you is no different than supporting the Republican party.
As it stands now, it’s hard to escape the notion that you’re playing us all for fools.
(Yes, there is a difference between the parties — but not enough of one. The problem, as I see it, is nonpartisan: both parties are being run by people who are corporatist and couldn’t care less about the US, its citizens, or the Constitution, so long as their rich benefactors keep raking in the bucks.)
Yes, I’m furious at you, Democratic party. That I’m even angrier at the Republicans doesn’t help you one little bit.
peterboy @ 70
There is no limit even if you are a citizen; I think the AG and DNI have to determine it’s reasonable to believe that the conversation you’re in is related to foreign intelligence. Citizens can be part of the conversation, as long as one party who is the “target” is reasonably believed to be oversees — and it may be you.
Scarecrow -
Have you read Marcy’s most current TNH post? Why Rove Resigned?
Steve-AR @ 50
i think the FISA “thing” is very important, because it gives us a reality check on where our dems in congress are - and it’s ain’t pretty…. but we needed to know this.
If we had kept up the work that President Carter started (Camp David) in solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, then perhaps we would not have found ourselves in the Middle East mess (of our own creating). Who knows? Perhaps there would have never been a ‘9-11′ if peace between the Palestinians and Israelis had become a reality. I don’t have a lot of faith in my party’s front runners to solve this situatuion.
If the GOP captures the WH again in 2008, it won’t be Republicans who put them there. It will be ‘Democrats’ and ‘Independents’ who do.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 74
I have now. I wish the woman would slow down — you know, only one scandal a week or something.
Seepeesate @ 72
ding ding, da ding ding!
But what if we nominate a neo-con in (D) clothing who says that first-strike use of nuclear bombs against a country that doesn’t threaten the USA is an option that is always “on the table”?
would that help?
montag @ 61
Not to be pedantic about it, but I believe there is a strong (small though it may be) difference between “most” applications and “all” applications when discussing this with people. In 1997, FISC denied one application and asked the government to revise it, but the government withdrew the request voluntarily because it was moot by then. In 2002, two requests are listed “approved as modified” (presumably denied the first time around). In 2003 they rejected 4 requests outright, which were not modified by the administration, probably because the administration had their illegal surveillance framework in place by then. The annual reports can be read here: http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/#rept
Again, I’m not trying to be an ass about it. I believe there’s a small but very important distinction to be made, and the fact that FISC approved every single request thrown at them for 25 years until GWB came along is striking.
The government, the Republicans, the Democrats, and who knows who else, are watching everything that gets posted on any and all blogs.
sporkovat @ 58 -
i don’t think any other explanation works - they just didn’t care.
but the party isn’t a monolith - i do think we have evidence that there are people who did care (feingold and whitehouse, for example)… but, they were undermined by their leadership.
if we can find a way to make them care (not about our rights - about the consequences of undermining our rights)… then we can expect better behavior. that’s one reason i’m very grateful to christy for her “they work for us” campaign.
This morning on NPR, I heard a clip from Hillary calling the Republicans a bunch of Yo-Yos. She said their leadership has basically been that the American People are on their own.
YOYO= You’re on your own
I was in a meeting with Sen Dodd that weekend and he made it clear - very clear - that the bill was no surprise and was extensively discussed and caucused … the claims they did not know what they were passing are false.
Sangemon - the bill allows them to extend warrantless wiretapping of targets for one year after initiated … so Gonzales can start whatever he wants at the end of the six months - and it will continue for a year.
The problem is; is that my party, the Demo’s think there is no place for me to run. It’s either going to be HRC or Obama, or the GOP. And they could be right. And I resent it profoundly.
Well, I just watched Kit Bond (E. Liar Maximus-Missouri) tell Leslie that he personally wrote the FISA Bill and everybody who said it gave the Administration expanded powers to spy on Americans was just flat wrong. He suggested that we needed to read the Bill so we knew what we were talking about.
EPU’d from last thread–cite to article about troops’ eye view in Iraq:
One quote that caught my eye:
A few nights ago, for example, we witnessed the death of one American soldier and the critical wounding of two others when a lethal armor-piercing explosive was detonated between an Iraqi Army checkpoint and a police one. Local Iraqis readily testified to American investigators that Iraqi police and Army officers escorted the triggermen and helped plant the bomb. These civilians highlighted their own predicament: had they informed the Americans of the bomb before the incident, the Iraqi Army, the police or the local Shiite militia would have killed their families.
Iraq is not going to be a whole and stable country during Bush’s term, or maybe ever.
Bush has not provided an honest definition of what the military mission is…and likely he cannot…and in the absence of defining a mission, every statement of success, or exhortation to “victory” is an utter lie.
Siun @ 84
wow. that’s even worse than what i had inferred from the evidence - that it couldn’t have been a surprise to anyone on the intelligence committees or in the leadership (unless, of course, they didn’t care and so weren’t paying attention).
Folks are always telling me: kiddo there IS light shining between the two parties. And I respond; not on fundraising techniques there isn’t. The Democratic Party. The party of choice? Sure, if you choose the DLC and their candidates.
selise @ 75