David Frum very seriously explains that The Problem With Karl is that he answered the wrong question:
The question he answered so successfully was a political one: How could Republicans win elections after Bill Clinton steered the Democrats to the center?
The question he unfortunately ignored was a policy question: What does the nation need — and how can conservatives achieve it?
Well, in all fairness to Karl, I don't think you can say for sure that he ignored that second question. He might just have answered it, "Who cares?"
Or maybe Karl realized that conservatives can't actually meet the nation's needs, which is why he relied on dirty tricks and manipulation over actual governance, and why Bush and the GOP rushed to settle as many scores and reward as many allies as possible before the gravy train derailed.
Also in fairness to Karl, I have a hard time picturing any conservative asking Frum's second question. "What does the GOP/religious right/chamber of commerce need - and how can conservatives achieve it?", sure. "What does the nation need or think it needs - and how can conservatives exploit that for electoral and financial gain?", absolutely. But to actually ask themselves how they might help and improve the country, they clearly have "other priorities."
And in further fairness to Karl, Frum makes it pretty obvious that he's nursing a serious grudge for losing the immigration argument - quite possibly the only policy Rove was actually right about.
Wow, look at me - I love Karl!
(I also feel obliged to point out the hacktacular, concern-troll premise of the first question - that the Democrats are nigh-invulnerable when they wear their Magickal Centrist Longjohns Longbroders.)
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First? Good points Eli. I can’t envision Karl ever asking himself “What does the nation need?”
zed?
Oooh. almost!
zed?
zedless in MN
So many zeds, how can I choose?
Conservatives? Did/does Rove care about conservatives?
Eli!!!
TexBetsy @ 7
Alas, no. He has Let Conservatism Down.
Hiya, CTut!
The question was: How can we win?
The answer was: I’ll fix it.
LS @ 11
Fix is the word, all right.
The conservatives have to lie, cheat, steal elections, and use Orwellian language in order to get ANYTHING.
If they tried to present their programs and positions honestly and straightforwardly, they would lose in landslides nearly every time (I’ll give them an occasional victory because there are few absolutes in electoral politics, even those conducted honestly).
I just love the concern trolls.
They’re so damn cute.
Here’s a question, but not a very serious one. Can you guess who this is?
My rich friends are all happy with the administration’s policies and they’re the only ones that really count.
Son of Zed
Zed Revisited
Zed XVII
Hey Eli.
dakine01 @ 13
Well, sure - but you can’t expect them to *admit* to that…
The whole Frum piece is quite a piece of work, like where he claims that the Democrats are the party of the top & bottom, and the Republicans are the party of the middle(!), rants about immigrants, and gloats about how we’re falling into the same polarizing extremist trap as Karl.
Eli @ 10
Why on earth would ya; “Wow, look at me - I love Karl!” I’m aghast…!!! ;-)
Hiya, egreg!
They, and Karl, only know how to get elected. They don’t know what to do once they get there.
Except pillage.
Eli @ 12
…Brooks Riot… …Ohio RNC Servers…!!!
Renee in Ohio @ 15
Too cute to be an actual repub
The only reason Rove was considered a genius was he got an ape-like adolescent elected twice based upon smoke and mirrors.
Now that we know (we knew it of course in 2000)it’s all a big fraud Karl’s gettin’ no love.
Of course he had to cheat to get W elected-not the basis of a lasting majority. The majority actually believe the exact opposite of everything you stand for, Karl-of course ya had to cheat. And cheat you did.
Only semi-OT - did anyone see that the WH went after a Hillary ad - calling it, among other things, unconscionable.
The ad in question merely pointed out that to Bush, average folks were invisible - fair comment, I’d say.
It seemed dopey to me that they’d engage, and I wonder if that isn’t more of Karl’s
brillianceego coming to the fore?wangdangdoodle @ 22
That was their only intent.
But he’s got a *name*, TexBetsy.
Renee in Ohio @ 15
Why..that looks like Karl the fascism bear wrapped in the American flag!
Kevster @ 25
Well, in all fairness to Karl (heh), getting Dubya elected, or even *close* to elected, *is* a pretty incredible achievement considering just how unfavorable his positives/negatives balance sheet is.
I don’t understand the David Frums of this world. For them, the serious question is not how many angels can dance on the head of a pin but what were they wearing. I don’t know how to respond to that kind of thinking.
Kevster @ 25
I am sorry but you are not correct. That idiot son of an asshole was NEVER elected.
Hugh @ 31
Mmm… Angel cleavage…
I’m going to Hell, aren’t I.
Mutant Poodle @ 26
…and Hillary’s saying; ‘Bring it on!’ ;-)
Hey, egregious
:)
Hugh @ 31
For that sort of mentality, see the previous thread.
Eli @ 19
Just for fun, here’s Andrew Sullivan on Rove:
Rove is one of the worst political strategists in recent times. He took a chance to realign the country and to unite it in a war - and threw it away in a binge of hate-filled niche campaigning, polarization and short-term expediency. His divisive politics and elevation of corrupt mediocrities to every branch of government has turned an entire generation off the conservative label. And rightly so.
Eli @ 33
Already there.
Renee in Ohio @ 28
…err, serious baggage…!!! ;-)
Mutant Poodle @ 37
I just realized what it was that Karl built.
A dam.
Okay, big hint. His first name is Stephen.
Stephen ColBEAR?
Renee in Ohio @ 41
Col-bear?
We should ignore Frum but not Rove.
Frum makes his living off people like Rove. He is significant only to the extent others make him significant.
Rove does, in this world, create reality.
He is not dead politically.
If I were a scumbag repub looking how to win an election, I’d grovel to hire Rove.
Renee in Ohio @ 15
Stephen Col-bear?
Eli @ 40
…thats’ sprung a bunch of leaks…!!! 8-)
Heh. Yep–that’s it!
TexBetsy @ 42
Jinx!
Mutant Poodle @ 26
Only more evidence that they want Hillary to be the nominee, in my view. Her ad strikes me as very “general election” and as her husband says, You never should look an election ahead. Focus on the election ahead of you. Which in this case is the primary election.
Mutant Poodle @ 37
It sounds convincing, but this still sounds like more “Conservatism didn’t fail, Rove failed conservatism.”
When Sullivan starts saying that conservatism itself is a corrupt philosophy based, essentially, on feudalism, maybe I’ll start paying attention.
Colbert/Colbear zed!
Mutant Poodle @ 26
The people are not invisible, they appear as teeny tiny specks inside Air Force One, as for instance over New Orleans.
darkblack @ 35
Hey db. Keep up the good work.
Eli @ 33
Or heaven, depending on how she responds to you.
Maher, on King, saying Freddy is headed back to ‘L&O’!!! ;-)
Jonathan @ 44
I agree. Rove is not down for the count. He isn’t even on vacation. He is running his special numbers and fixing the next election via fraud or disenfranchisement.
egregious @ 54
I generally find that disbelief in someone’s existence is a very poor basis for a relationship.
TeddySanFran @ 49
I think that’s right, but part of her burden now is for people to see her as electable, so I think it makes sense in a way that going after Obama or Edwards doesn’t.
Hillary does makes me nervous, but the more the white house is in the fight, the more it’s about them and not whoever the Repub nominee is, and I think that’s a good thing.
My $.02
Is this the foul-mouthed fem blog?
If so, coolio! Now I’m off to find the anti-Semitic Daily Kos that urges “Jew gassing.”
Wow. Who knew the left blogosphere was filled with extremist wackos? It always seemed very rational to me.
Mutant Poodle @ 26
the CNN-bots were all over that this evening. Dunno if it’s the, heh heh, “last throes” of the retreating Rovester, but it also struck me as dopey. (Also Sleepy, Grouchy, and Sneezy.) I mean, you dignify an opponent by responding to them…..any fool knows that.
Or not…..
lisa @ 59
Hey, all you damn men! Um, get offa my frickin’… lawn! Yeah!
lisa @ 59
We were gonna tell ya tomorrow.
Eli @ 57
Not if you’re open to persuasion.
egregious @ 63
Well, if they can prove that they’re tangible…
lisa @ 59
You just have to dig deep. We’re all filled with an irrational hatred of America.
And manly men.
Welcome aboard!
oddmommy @ 60
Ah but KKKarl and Company are not just any fools…
When do the people really harmed by Rove get to weigh in with their own op-ed pieces? When, for instance, will we hear from John McCain’s adopted daughter about how she felt about the campaign in South Carolina in 2000? When will we hear from the hard-working Texan staffers of Ann Richards who were slurred by Rove in W’s first gubernatorial campaign? Why hasn’t Max Cleland been given newsprint real estate to speak out about the “morphing” campaign against him in 2002? Where is Tom Daschle? Where is John Kerry? Where, for that matter, is Mary Cheney?
Why have only the admirers, or once-admirers, of Rove been given the opportunity to opine on his legacy? Why have we not heard from those whose Gulf Coast he has neglected for almost two years?
The first-person voices of those Rove has hurt — ordinary Americans whose political discourse he debased as well as those who became unemployed or are still without a home — are the ones I want to hear from about Rove.
Fruck David Fum. His parsing of what Karl did or didn’t do is worthless to me, and to America. He’s just trying to find his way under the tent-flap again.
Eli @ 57
Calvino’s Il Cavaliere inesistente had the opposite problem.
TeddySanFran @ 67
Excellent point!
I can arrange some interviews with people who have been living and/or working on the Mississippi gulf coast, if you’re interested. Don’t know any of the more famous names on your list.
TeddySanFran @ 67
My initial impression was that he was trying to establish some kind of Principled Conservative street cred, but his little hissy fit about immigration suggests to me that he has a genuine grudge against Rove for not making Dubya kick out all the Scary Brown People.
I’m proud to be a fan of the foul-mouthed fem blog. Woo Hoo!
TexBetsy @ 69
Yes. My parents, brother and sister. New Orleans natives all. They all suffer from Katrina brain. I have a special personalized hatred for Rove.
Eli @ 61
Was I on it? I thought I had public access to the beach, at the Lake Shore??? WTF??? *g*
lisa @ 59
Well, it’s like that old Far Side cartoon, about what dogs actually hear.
You say: “Uh, y’know, maybe, just possibly, Israel has gone too far bombing most of Lebanon–again.”
What the wingnuts hear: “Gas them fuckin’ Jew bastards.”
You say, about a mess: “This fuckin’ mess has gone on too long. It’s time to fix it.”
What the wingnuts hear: “We fuckin’ ought to stick the right-wingers’ heads in the oven.”
In or out of power, the right-wingers are always the victims. That’s how they hear things.
I’m a f-m’ed f, and I’m married to a manly man. And he likes kitties, too.
montag @ 74
Well, also, any criticism of Lieberman is a criticism of all Jews.
I wonder if AC360, with his special passion for New Orleans, will interview anyone there about Rove’s departure. It seems to me that the discussion among the chatterati has been entirely focused on the opinions of the chatterati. They aren’t even pretending to report on the actual impact of Rove. They are simply reporting on his impact on themselves.
Here’s the ACLU petition for folks who haven’t weighed in on the FISA vote. It’s to Harry and Nancy.
cons cant govern - they only serve to increase power of the meritocracy.. us peons be damned
Eli @ 64
Wouldn’t it be equally important for her to find you tangible?
I would love to see Rove and Frum forced to live in the Ninth Ward with no health care and no special protection. Do you think their unique survival skills as gop operators would help them much? I know one thing, they would be sweating a lot.
marymccurnin @ 56
I would like to second this. I don’t believe for a moment Karl would be leaving were it not for some perceived strategic advantage. Rasputin does not just walk out the door.
TeddySanFran @ 77
Who else matters??
egregious @ 80
Absolutely. But I don’t think my tangibility is in dispute… is it?
Woo-Hoo, the first caller to Bill was; “…now that half of Bush’s brain has resigned…!!!” ;-)
Eli @ 76
Lieberman himself, too, is always the victim–of unfair and unproductive partisanship….
Yeah, right.
montag @ 74
You almost have to look at their base as having some fundamental psychological problems imo.
RonD @ 82
Remember what happened to Rasputin in the end.
and who thinks karl is done? not me - he’s free now to make real trouble for the country - he’s being sought by repugs who’re in trouble in their districts to guide them to victory …or so they think
juslin @ 89
“Do for my popularity what you’ve done for Bush’s!”
TeddySanFran @ 67
I ask you in return why these persons do not speak up. Do they have nothing to say? Are they weak? Are they burnt out? Don’t they not care? Have they written off the U.S.?
TeddySanFran @ 67
Well, we did have Sidney Blumenthal’s column today calling him a “political serial killer.”
I agree, the coverage of Exit Karl has been bizarre….almost like the m****f****r suddenly dropped dead and everyone was trying to give him a decent eulogy.
But good heavens, child…….surely you don’t expect anyone bearing the name of Cheney to do the right thing? Least of all Miss Mary, Smirking Simperess in Chief (”this is a baaaaby…..gift from God……not a political issue……..so WHAT if I live in a state where he’s an abomination………EVERYONE knows the rules don’t appy to rich, well connected lesbian mammas such as I….”)
juslin @ 89
I doubt if he’ll be out of work for long, but I imagine he’ll be keeping a pretty low profile….
Speaking of manly men, Condi hit the top of the 50 most influential list.
Eli @ 84
Anyone here ever touch Eli? Any proof at all that he exists? That he is tangible?