Anonymous Liberal went back over Gonzales' testimony before Congress to try and determine how strong an argument can be made (based on what is known) that he lied. The case is pretty compelling.
Basically, as I understand it Abu tried to get cute by saying that the program which Bush confirmed the existence of in 2005 (after the NYT broke the story) was one they called the "Terrorist Surveillance Project" (TSP). Gonzales told Congress repeatedly that it was a different program than the TSP that Comey, Goldsmith and others objected to. As Glenn Greenwald has pointed out, prior to March 2004 the TSP was probably part of a larger, more far-reaching (and more frightening) program than the TSP.
Fine. Let's assume it was. He can't have it both ways. Let's say that larger program, which we'll call "Program X" included programs A, B and some incarnation of C (TSP). After Abu's midnight rendezvous at Ashcroft's hospital, they kill A and B. Gonzales might be consistent in saying that X and C (TSP) are technically different programs. But he can't then insist that the Gang of 8 were briefed on C (TSP) if they were actually briefed on X, and he can't say that "there has not been any serious disagreement about the program that the President has confirmed" (C) because as Pelosi, Rockafellow, Daschle and others have said, they absolutely objected to what they were briefed on.
As AL says:
So Gonzales can't now claim that he was only testifying about the post-2004 version of the program. Both he and the President made it abundantly clear that they were talking about a program that had been in existence since shortly after 9/11. And by all accounts, it is that very program that the entire upper echelon of the Justice Department was prepared to resign over in March 2004. So when Gonzales testified that there had "not been any serious disagreement" about the program and that Comey and Goldsmith's objections related to "other activities," it seems pretty clear that he
committed perjurylied to Congress [again, he wasn't under oath]. If you are going to rely on implicit definitional distinctions, you have to at least be consistent with them. When Gonzales' statements are put in the context of his overall testimony and the President's statement (which he incorporated by reference), it's pretty clear that Gonzales intentionally misled Congress. And about a highly relevant fact, i.e., that there had been massive internal dissent over the legality of the program.
It's complicated, and making a clear, simple case for the public that Abu is an abject liar is going to be difficult But he needs to be in the employment line pronto. It's gotta happen.
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A zed?
Dogs!
Gone-zo begone!
My lady and I have decided that should Al Gore choose not to run, we shall support Senator Hillary Clinton to be the next president.
Actually, I think it’s much easier to make the case (that Abu is a liar) to the public than it is to the legalistic minds in Congress.
Abu - chickensh*t liar extraordinaire…
GordonM @ 5
Ain’t that the truth! All you have to do is show those clips of him repeating over and over and over again that he does not recall if he ever remembered or knew or said or did a damn thing!
Forgive me for disremembering, but since Gonzalez won’t cop to why he and Card were there…not to twist Ashcroft’s IV’d arm, what is the reason he gave for being there, after Comey’s dramatic version of that evening’s events?
And, I heard that Ashcroft spoke to the Oversight Committee, behind closed doors, but has anyone read or heard any of Mrs. Ashcroft’s remembrances of that fateful evening?
I have not read the transcript, or watched the testimony on television, but to allow the Bushies to set the debate by muddying the water with different programs being debated in the WH/Congress, and getting away from Comey’s statements that Ashcroft, in the ICU, was being bullied by the WH thru their lackys, makes the democrats look disorganized and weak. Stick with the bullying, stick with Mueller and Comey’s testimony–it directly refutes Gonzales’. That’s where you get him for perjury, not by letting the Bushies set the debate. Stay of the offensive with this stuff!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 4
Really? I am surprised. That is my thinking as of now; why is she your second choice?
If folks missed Rep Sheila Jackson Lee on Chris Matthews the other evening it is worth taking time to listen and watch her summary of the Gonzales and Muellers testimony. What an incredibly brilliant, articulate, graceful and diplomatic representative. Does not get any better than this.
Fired U.S. Attorneys
go to Gonzales potential perjury problem to watch Rep Lee
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/
“Let’s clear it all up” “The Rule of law has to be the most prominent and most important concern for U.S. members of congress and the President of the U.S. Appoint a Special Prosecutor”
Steve-AR @ 9
Why not Edwards?
Here’s Greenwald on distinct TSPs:
and I still think gonzo looks, in that picture, like a dog waiting for a treat. Or, I would think that if it weren’t an insult to all of dogdom.
I am for Edwards.
Get Tough @ 10
I must respectfully disagree with you. I don’t think they look disorganized or weak. The have a game plan. They have more information than you or any of us do (although many here Did watch or read about the hearings.) I choose to think that they are holding their cards close to their vests and are playing this thing for keeps.
oddmommy @ 12
WTF no need to choose now…what is the rush? Let them duke it out!
TexB @ 15
Me too!
I cannot recall recollecting that at the time it allegedly occurred, and I must recuse myself, as a witness in fact, from refreshing my remembrance of it’s recollectionas as that might unduly influence further testimony on my potential recollection of the events.
Oh, you meant the blood on my shirt? No, I cut myself shaving this morning.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 4
Wowie, OKK. Did Lahona convert you?
Resources for the case for impeachment against Gonzales are summarized on Priming the Pump. I just finished adding a reference to Anonymous Liberal’s case an hour ago.
If I have overlooked any other good resources for impeaching Gonzo, please let me know, or add them yourself in that workspace.
Bob in HI
Loo Hoo,
Who’s your Top Dem Dog as of today?
I am very conflicted by AGAG’s testimony. I am worried that it is a “shiny object”.
AGAG was very direct and determined to get this story out into the news cycle. He was interrupted and patiently asked to finish. He didnt speak off the cuff, but delivered a rehearsed monologue.
Question is, why?
Looking for a blurring of the issues?
Creating an alibi citing the difficulty of discussing classified programs?
Looking to shift diversion onto the program and away from Carol Lam?
I dont pretend to know, but it was a planned “leak”, and leads me to think we’re missing something. On top of all that, Bushco goes on the offensive now citing need for updated FISA. Why now? My spidey sense is tingling, big time.
Woodhall Hollow @ 7
Which Jon Stewart did beautifully. Lots of re-runs of that show, please!
The Democarts need to clear the Gonzales issue off the table as quickly as possible so they can get down to the critical business of bringing home the troops from Iraq. Gonzo gate seems to be sucking all the oxygen out of the efforts to end the war.
There’s also this, from John Solomon in the WaPo this morning:
demi @ 16
Of course they have more information then us. My point is that there is being detailed oriented, and then there is over-thinking and wrapping yourself up in a tizzy that in the end nothing is accomplished. The grownups, as Tweety calls them, are doing a find job, and I think are adequately applying enough pressure to the Bushies. There are more defections everyday. But the whole TSP/other spy program distinctions were Tony Snowjob’s boilerpoint answers at his first press conference after Abu’s latest testimony. Comey’s and Mueller’s testimony, and Jackson Lee’s great direct with Mueller are the keys. Stick to the basics.
Steve-AR @ 10
The environment, the Iraq business and some other reasons make Gore our first choice. As to Clinton? We like the fact she changed political parties and that the Senator worked to elect Eugene McCarthy, and for other reasons as well. We realize there are some negatives with the Senator. But we’re not expecting perfection from any candidate. Including Mr. Gore. ;0)
Loo Hoo. @ 20
Holy cow. I’ll have some of whatever you’re smoking. :)
“It’s complicated, and making a clear, simple case for the public that Abu is an abject liar is going to be difficult But he needs to be in the employment line pronto. It’s gotta happen.”
Maybe in the unemployment line?
TexB @ 15
Moi too!
TeddySanFran @ 26
And since Solomon is one of the finest stenographers in DC, you know somebody is feeding this info to him.
Was this the neo-cons plan?
50,ooo Iraqi’s a month leave Iraq. Close to million dead. Give this disaster 10 years and a good portion of Iraqi’s will either be dead, injured or displaced. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6916791.stm
A dear friend from Athens Ohio Peggy Gish http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4066835.stm
http://vitw.org/cat/voices-from-iraq/peggy-gish/ who has been to Iraq with the Christian Peace Maker Team for close to four years (she was there before the invasion). Has said that the majority of Iraqi people believe that chaos, destruction and death is what the neo-cons wanted. Sure looks like it.
Get Tough,
Who’s working themselves up into a Tizzy?
And, I don’t give a rat’s a** what Tony Snow say’s about anything.
KathieinMN @ 31
Me, too
demi @ 16
Not only that they have 5 trump cards on the Supreme Court. At least that is their thinking.
Jane is right when she says it’s complicated, and that it would be difficult to convince the public that Abu is an abject liar. Here’s more Greenwald:
Abu is lying and telling the truth at the same time.
The NYT also makes the point this morning that one reason for their delay in publishing the story about the illegal warrantless wiretapping — from summer 2004 until December 2005 — is that the government told them repeatedly that there was no internal dissent as to the legality of the program.
I wonder if the Gang of Eight’s objections were lied about, or only internal DoJ objections? Anyway, the lies kept the story under wraps until after the President’s “re-election” and that’s what mattered.
Loo Hoo. @ 20
Well I wouldn’t say Lahoma converted me. But she is the smartest person I’ve ever known. Plus she’s almost always right. I’ve found. It just takes me awhile to figure that out sometimes. ;0)
demi @ 8
Is OfAshcroft allowed to have an independent recollection, within their Pentecostal faith?
oddmommy @ 12
For me, as of of now, I think Hilliary has the motive and the ability to cut the guts out of the Republican Party. For me, that is the first and next nine things that I want a Dem President to do. Expanding the Dem. majorities in both Houses with Progressives is the way for us to shape foreign and domestic policy. As of now, Obama talks like Lieberman lite, he will try to be nice with the Thugs.
The future of our Country depends on the destruction of the Republican party as a National Party.
Kathleen @ 33
Interesting. Run off or kill off the educated, leaving behind an impoverished population to work for “the company”, Iraq Inc. International. That is pretty much what Kuwait is. Cheney was on the board of Kuwait Inc., International prior to the first Gulf war. That would explain the bizarre behavior of building the world’s largest “embassy” from which to run it. Halliburton moving to the Middle East now, perhaps waiting to move to Iraq, once things pan out over time.
demi @ 34
Well, it appears that the grownups are paying attention because they seem to be concentrating on that aspect of the testimony rather than Comey’s and Mueller’s testimony that directly refutes Gonzales. Snowjob is setting the debate with all of this other spy program crap. What do the grownups want from these hearings: more hearings, dragged out for the next two years, and more facts coming out to be investigated, and the Bushies leaving office and laughing the whole way? Or, focus the inquiry, start knocking off the pawns to get to the back row of the board before 2009? I vote the latter.
KathieinMN @ 30
Both work. Employment line: waiting to be employed, to submit employment app. Unemployment line: waiting to collect benefits.
demi @ 16
Lots of reports that the WH is in chaos, barely under control; the DoJ can’t fill 17 top spots, DHS can’t fill a huge number of positions… I believe that Harriet was told not to show up because they didn’t think she was capable of doing the required misdirection (lying)…
Gonzo is being extremely careful and lawyerly in his testimony. In the game he is playing, it takes only one wrong word and it’s over.
I absolutely do not believe they are playing “for keeps”. They are trying to run the clock out. Two years ago they thought they could pull it off; now they’re just trying to save their sorry asses.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 28
Thanks; I value your opinion.
Demi, right now it’s Hillary. First and foremost, it would be a twofer. Bill is well-respected world wide, and would give an immediate signal to the world that Americans reject all things Bush. Hillary is smart. Of the two debates I’ve seen, Wolf and YouTube, she won hands down, and gave the correct answer regarding meeting with Iran, Venezuela, N.Korea and Cuba. She is willing to speak honestly even when she knows (and her staff know) that it may not be the answer that the base wants to hear right now. They know there is a general election to contend with, and that anything she says in the debates will be used in the general election should she win the primary. I think she has proven that she cares about healthcare and education, and aside from the 2002 vote to allow Bush to use the military vs. Iraq (which is no insignificant vote) her voting record has been stellar. She has the experience to do the job.
I am not sure Mr. Bush has the guts to fire his AG.
TeddySanFran @ 40
I dunno, but wasn’t she sort of in charge of who got to see the Mr.?
And, did we ever hear why Mueller called his FBI agents and told them Not to let anyone escort Comey out of the ICU?
demi @ 18
As I’m I, but its early days yet.
Alecia @ 25
If and when our Reps get down to the bottom of potential election fraud and the wiretapping program (and how it was “allegedly” compromised) and who they may have been listening to some rumors say Colin Powell, Kofi Anan, the American people may be for even more shocking news.
It looks like our Reps think this is the way they may be able to take the Bush administration down down down to hell where they belong. The American public and the whole world will be a great deal safer if and when this happens.
We can’t take much more of this groups “compassionate conservatism”.
dakine01 @ 32
Why do we have to believe the admin leaked it. A lot of stuff is coming out now, and it might be an instance of the dam starting to break. Even if this is attempting to distract us from another issue, if this will allow Gonzales to impeached,what do you see as the harm? I haven’t thought this through yet, and I am curious why people think it is one or the other or potentially something else entirely.
Folks, I think AGAG’s dicey testimony is a good start, but, lets focus more on the actual illegality of the Program(s), rather than on AGAG! As Lederman so adroitly points out:
“What Congress and the public should be investigating now is not so much what the meaning of ‘program’ was in the Attorney General’s hamfisted attempts to deceive the legislature since January 2006, but instead just what the NSA (and the FBI) were up to, both between 2001 and March 2004, when the program must have been unthinkably broad and unlawful; and also from 3/2004 to January 2007, during which period it was ‘limited’ in the two respects noted above. What were the legal justifications and theories for both versions of ‘the program’?”
Biodun @ 44
True - but I doubt if he would have any trouble getting new employment! But I like the picture of him standing in line with all of the ‘inferior’ people who need benefits! (-;
Get Tough @ 43
I think I agree with you, but our discussion started with you saying the Dems look weak and disorganized…huh?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 39
Al is going to run, just watching the rest duke it out right now. Smart
Kathleen @ 56
I agree. He’s going to run.
argosfalcon @ 50
Yes these days are early. But, I really like the way Edwards talks sense without being pedantic or preachy.
(oh, yeah, he’s very easy on the eyes)
Micheal Moore basically begs AL TO RUN on Bill Maher’s program. This is a great interview.
I love Micheal Moore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_QoffvYQpw
CTuttle @ 53
In a sane world, yes. But it’s all so deeply classified you can’t even directly ask about it.
demi @ 55
Weak and disorganized may be too harsh, but the grownups are doing a heckuva job right now–they have Spector bitching about Abu on Air Force One!–and I have worked on too many multi-million dollar antitrust litigation cases to see what Snowjob and the Bushies are doing by throwing more facts into the situation than need be concentrated on. That’s all.
LS @ 57
I agree, I think he’s waiting until he wins the Nobel Peace Prize in October :)
LS @ 57
I believe that he will NOT run. Look at the Thompson campaign already falling apart because all the big money is already committed. I think it’s too late for Gore - however much I might want him to run.
janda @ 52
janda,
I’m not saying the admin leaked it, just that someone leaked it to Solomon as he does very little reporting and large amounts of regurgitating what he has been fed.
CTuttle @ 53
good set of questions, it seems they can’t/will not answer specific questions, and thats they weak point. If you ask broader questions the more weasel room (my apologizes to weasels in non-human form).
LS @ 57
A littlewhile back, and FDLer said she has friends who socialize with the Gores who say Gore is not going to run. His family, especially Tipper, doesn’t want him to run.
It’s complicated, and making a clear, simple case for the public that Abu is an abject liar is going to be difficult. But he needs to be in the employment line pronto. It’s gotta happen.
I disagree somewhat. “Gonzo is lying” is not a hard sell to the general public (wingnuts excepted.) He’s already been pushed deep into “what the meaning of ‘is’ is” territory — any normal person who’s watching already knows he’s lying, and the entire administration is on the defensive trying to tell us that what we’re seeing is not what we’re actually seeing (succinctly summed up at TPM by “Snow: Mueller Didn’t Mean What He Obviously Meant”.)
In an administration with the slightest sense of shame, Gonzales would be long gone. The problem is not convincing the people, it’s overcoming an administration that will never fire their firewall, and Congressional Republicans who have long since abandoned law and honesty for party power. It’s proving to the necessary legal standard (impeachment, I hope) what everyone already knows to be true — that our country’s top law enforcement officer has lied repeatedly in violation of the law.
CTuttle @ 53
Impeaching Gonzales may be necessary to fing out anything about the program.
Kathleen
From your mouth (fingers) to Mr. Gore’s Heart.
We can All Pray on that one!
(and, I’m sure Michael says nice things about you too. :))
A little while back, an FDLer said she has friends who socialize with the Gores who say Gore is not going to run. His family, especially Tipper, doesn’t want him to run.
RE: Solomon
dakine01 @ 64
Agree. Where ever the real power in the GOP resides, it is no longer held by Junior.
OfT:
California’s new Secretary of State, Debra Bowen, does her job:
snip
GordonM @ 60
The SSCI and the House Intel Com.’s could get to the bottom of it if they so desired! I think Rockefeller and Harmon could set the record straight without jeopardizing the methods used!
dakine01 @ 64
Sorry, I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth. But I am curious what people think about who leaked it. My naturally optimistic side and my overly cynical side are currently duking it out in my mind.
Make no mistake about this. If Mr. Gore runs Lahoma and I will be on the front lines for Al. But as I indicated, should he decide against a run, then we will be on the front lines for Senator Clinton. The view here is that with every candidate there are trade-offs, practicalities and considerations.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 75
I know slick Willy campaigned hard for Joe Lieberman against LaMont. Clinton=more of the same.
Get Tough,
(whispering) I just don’t like to give any power to what the press secretary has to say…or that male blonde msnbc anchormouth either. shhh…Let’s not bring them up, give them postive or negative credibility. Know what I’m sayin’?
Looks like all the decisions will be made before Texans cast a ballot. I will support the democratic candidate.
Wow, OKK! — I would have though Senator Clinton was quite far down on your not-Al list, with her DLC credentials and all. I’ll happily support her as the nominee, but another President too stubborn to admit a mistake isn’t progress, as far as I’m concerned.
janda @ 74
My guess is the leaker is a senior career DoJ who has been royally p*ss’d at the trashing of the Constitution and the DoJ and has access to the pertinent info.
CTuttle @ 73
Not so sure. With the 9/11 madness, the admin tricked the Congress into passing some extremely onerous penalties for even opening their mouths. Rockefeller writing out a letter by hand (twice) and putting one in the safe? That’s damn near Harry Potter material!
Twain @ 63
Over the last few months Howard Fineman and a few others on Chris Matthews Sunday news program have said that close sources say Gore will run.
RUN AL RUN
Gore will run right over Hillary (her yea on the 2002 war resolution will take her out) and the rest of the candidates. Gore all ready won once, his solid stance against the invasion, and allowing the world to see his deep and sincere commitment to enviromental issues will take him over the top.
A Tidal Wave is coming, and Al Gore will be riding that wave! The wave is made up of Republican, Democrats and Independents disgust and anger about an unnecessary and immoral war and the endless corruption that the Bush administration has been involved with.
demi @ 58
must be that $400 haircut…..
[primal scream]
We voted for Bill Clinton twice. And we voted for Al Gore.
TeddySanFran @ 40
While you are obviously entitled to your own views on religion, making fun of others is a great way to antagonize others and is not particularly effective in convincing them of your political views.
For the record, I like Edwards over anybody. Even Gore. (And I’m in Maine, so southern accents make my skin crawl.)
demi @ 77
I hear you, demi. That’s my point. By delving into the nitty-gritty facts about these other spy programs, which my little voice is screaming probably don’t exist anyway, AFTER Snowjob brings them up makes it look like the “oversighters” are giving him credibility. Set the debate, don’t react. I am an abrasive chap by nature. No hard feelings.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 84
still curious as to why Edwards isn’t your no-Gore choice??
oddmommy @ 83