In response to Scarecrow's post on impeachment, I wrote at Needlenose on Tuesday, updating my previous qualms about needing to build a popular consensus:
Before yesterday, there was a public consensus that Dubya is a bad president — but not that he can’t be tolerated in office a moment longer. . . . Now, an easily digestible, commonsense argument about Bush's lack of a moral compass has been laid out clearly for everyone to see: We have a president who coddles the criminals in his own administration.
Which isn't to say that the mere fact of the Libby commutation will convince the public of that argument by itself, particularly with the invisible whisperers of the Bush regime fanning out to spread their misinformation, and their loyal press courtiers doing their best to help. Someone needs to make the case, and to do it in a visible public forum.
One problem here is that an overt impeachment inquiry carries so much baggage that it can become a distraction by itself, changing the subject from Bush's corrupt action to whether it genuinely warrants removing him from office. And while fact-finding hearings can help fuel our rhetorical fire, testimony from "legal scholars [and] pardon experts" may cause the moral focus of the issue to be lost in a sea of minutiae.
A motion to censure the President, however, might be the right tool to cut through the clutter. It would make a simple declaration -- that even if Bush has the technical right to commute Scooter's sentence, in the view of the Congress, he has sent the most corrupting message a president can possibly send to his administration ("If you break the law while working for me, I'll make sure you never spend a day in jail"), and it was morally wrong for him to do it.
It's a message that needs to be sent for future generations, so that Dubya's pseudo-pardon isn't treated as an accepted precedent. On a practical basis, it begins to lay out a public case for a possible impeachment. And on a purely political level, it would firmly establish Bush and his apologists (including the craven supplicants campaigning for the 2008 Republican nomination) on the wrong side of a clear moral divide -- an absolutely essential step in debunking the essential GOP mythology of firm, paternal rectitude.
The Republicans will respond as they always do, with counter-accusations and smoke machines. But if the Democrats speak plainly and insistently, they can repeatedly drag the subject back to its core: That when an official in his administration breaks the law, the President has no business interfering in that official's punishment. And he should be censured for it.
Update: Talk about getting results!
Rep. Robert Wexler, D-Fla., plans to introduce a resolution that would censure President Bush over his decision to commute the prison sentence faced by former vice presidential aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, the congressman said Thursday.
"This presidential intervention is an unconscionable abuse of authority by George W. Bush, and Congress must step forward and express the disgust that Americans rightfully feel toward this contemptible decision," Wexler said in a statement released by his congressional office.
That's putting it exactly right.
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18.2441
zed!
oops. Hi Steve.
zed?
Always liked the idea of censure. Russ Feingold as a hero for promoting it. Still irked at those who Sista Soulja’d him for their own political gain.
Zed - I read
Plain speaking!
Censure is something.
Steve @ 1
That’s 18 USC 2441 - right?
Wexler introducing censure in the House.
Ain’t no myth, they wrecked it, dude.
When it said
Liby, Libby, Libby
at the trial, trial, trial,
“Guilty!” “Guilty!” “Guilty!” “Guilty!”
No denial, -nial, -nial.
Let’s have
Censure, Censure, Censure
on Decider-, -ider, -ider!
(OK, many of you are too young to remember the commercials.)
Robert Wexler’s office is putting together a censure motion at this moment.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 8
The real charge against Libby et al
For the benefit of anyone who has not seen this story mentioned in the prior thread, here is Raw Story’s version: Judge lifts injunction on ‘DC madam’ phone records
Censure would surely be easier to accomplish right now. But impeachment, after more Dems get elected in Nov. should be the goal. More dirty laundry will have piled up by then. The more we push, the faster something will get done.
Here’s the text of Wexler’s censure resolution:
Resolution relating to the censure of George W. Bush
Whereas President George W. Bush has failed to comply with his obligations under Executive Order 12958 concerning the protection of classified national security information in that the covert identity of Valerie Plame Wilson as a Central Intelligence Agency operative was revealed to members of the media, and in June 2003 Bush Administration officials discussed with various reporters the identity of Ms. Wilson as a covert Central Intelligence Agency operative;
Whereas on July 14, 2003, the name of Ms. Wilson and her status as a CIA operative was revealed publicly in a newspaper column by Robert Novak, and on September 16, 2003 the Central Intelligence Agency advised the Department of Justice that Ms. Wilson’s status as a covert operative was classified information and requested a federal investigation;
Whereas knowingly leaking the identity of a covert agent is a criminal violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act (P.L. 97-200);
Whereas Arthur Brown, former Asian Division chief of the CIA, stated that, “cover and tradecraft are the only forms of protection one has and to have that stripped away because of political scheming is the moral equivalent to exposing forward deployed military units”;
Whereas Vice President Cheney’s former chief of staff, I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, effectively stopped the investigation into this potentially grave national security crime by lying to FBI investigators, and Mr. Libby’s perjury shielded the Vice President Dick Cheney and President George W. Bush from further inquiry;
Whereas on March 6, 2007, in U.S. District Court a jury found Mr. Libby guilty on four counts of perjury, obstruction of justice and making false statements to FBI investigators regarding an investigation into the actions of the White House regarding leaking the identity of Ms. Wilson in retaliation for her husband’s contention that the Bush administration twisted intelligence facts to justify the 2003 invasion of Iraq;
Whereas on June 5, 2007, Mr. Libby was sentenced to 30 months in prison and fined $250,000;
Whereas President George W. Bush had appointed both the Special Prosecutor, Patrick Fitzgerald, and the US District Court Judge, Reggie Walton, who were involved in the trial of Mr. Libby;
Whereas in February 2004, President George W. Bush stated that if anyone in his Administration “has violated [the] law, that person will be taken care of”;
Whereas on July 2, 2007, President Bush commuted the portion of Mr. Libby’s sentence that required him to spend thirty months in prison;
Whereas in commuting Mr. Libby’s sentence, President Bush has finally and unalterably breached any remaining shred of trust that he had left with the American people and rewarded political loyalty while flouting the rule of law: Now, therefore let be it —
Resolved, That the United States Congress does hereby censure George W. Bush, President of the United States, and does condemn his decision to commute the portion of Mr. Libby’s sentence that required him to spend thirty months in prison, his unconscionable abuse of his authority with regard to the deceitful chain of events concerning the falsifying intelligence on Iraqi nuclear capabilities and the exaggeration of the threat posed by Iraq, his involvement in the clear political retaliation against former Ambassador and Ms. Wilson, and his decision to reward the perjury of Mr. Libby, which effectively protected President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and other Administration officials from further scrutiny.
Swopa, i think you’re right about Censure, but only if it’s considered and cast as one more piece of the impeachment puzzle. Because censure alone won’t stop these thugs from further damage to the world. Stopping them in their tracks is far more important than sending message to future generations.
Admittedly the impeachment question is very complex, and censure is a relatively simple step. But in a very real sense we’re fighting for our lives here, and we must keep our eyes on the prize.
Censure has a lot going for it. It’s quick and easy, unlike impeachment. So Congress doesn’t have to put the rest of its’ agenda aside while they go through involved proceedings.
You can issue multiple censures as desired. They put an asterisk next to W’s stats forever. Not that he hasn’t managed to make a place for himself in history already…
It doesn’t preclude impeachment later on, if need be.
It’ll piss Bush off. He’ll do something to respond that will compound the disgrace; he’ll be off his game and the public will see more clearly what he’s made of and what he has done.
It’s all good.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 14
this might get interesting.
i’m sorry that was really long… don’t know how to link :(
I think they should go for the censure motion, if for no other reason than I’ll enjoy watching all the wingnut conniption fits. :-)
Seriously, given the American public’s opinion of the commutation, if Congress chickens out of censuring the President, 2008 is going to be a grim re-election year for a lot of people. If they do pass a censure resolution, Bush will not be a happy camper, even though the punditocracy will do their best to pass it off as a meaningless gesture.
this is great stuff
if censure fails we win because the bill will be written with language that will be damning to people that think libby should be above the law
if it passes it is the end for the administration
win win
I am in agreement with John Dean. He says there is a strong case to be made for impeachment hearings directed at the Vice-President. Now that, is a “distraction”, I support.
OldCoastie @ 9
Holy crap… do I get results, or what?!?
Swopa @ 24
I’m impressed!
perris @ 22
we need to help them there, we need to come up with language that makes it impossible to vote against censure
like;
“libby was found guilty of obstucting the investigation that would find out who committed treason against this country”
etc
include language like that and see if any republican has the nerve to vote against
jmba @ 20
Here’s a link from ThinkProgress: Wexler plans to introduce censure measure
The Supremes appointed a criminal and his associate, Beloved Leader. One has to wonder if any case (executive privilege etc…) which reached them would be heard in favor of “We the People”, or as with bush v gore they would already have a pre-determined outcome in mind when they granted cert.
I suspect that they would further assist in the cover-up, given that the 5 justices Thomas, Scalia, Roberts, Alito and Kennedy seem to have no love of either the constitution, the average American or the Republic they are charged to protect as the Constitutional third branch of government.
It’s a shame that it has come to this. At least an impeachment hearing would provide no legal or judicial cover for Cheney and his puppet.
Avoid the Rush. (heh) Impeach NOW!
Swopa @ 24
who knew?!?
Swopa @ 25
If we built you a time machine, could you go back and do this a couple of years ago?
ooo - Bob Shrum, kicking Ron Christie in the shins on Hardball!
Bob’s a Dem today? Who knew?
Think about this for a second before drafting the impeachment motion. While Dick Cheney is alive and functioning as VP, we need George Bush to remain a healthy (albeit incompetent) president. Otherwise we are going to nuke Iran five minutes after George leaves office.
I like this tactic — and it invites discussions about whether it goes far enough. That is a good conversation to encourage.
Swopa @ 24
GO Swopa!
I agree with CrazyHorse. Censure only as a precurser to impeachment. Toothless, nonbinding resolutions make me think the dems are flacid.
On the other hand, every little bit of shame heaped on the Administration helps.
LBrowne @ 32
Watch out for low flying pigs!
Scarecrow @ 34
I like your logic.
Impeachment might be a ‘Hail Mary’ pass but Censure is definately a first down using a running game.
Don’t forget to remind the citizenry that ‘President Bush is America’s Greatest Conservative President’ ever. There’s no contest and we need to keep telling ‘the people’ why that is so.
For every minute he stays in office let’s make the ‘conservative’ movement bleed.
It’s the correct thing to do and it’s very good politics.
OldCoastie @ 19
If you are on the Deborah Jeane Palfrey list, raise your hand.
jmba,
To make a link, with a PC not a Mac,
left click with your mouse on the link address you want to link to. Then press Ctrl and C, then click down here in the message box. That’s how i know how to do it, and there are other ways.
We can only hope that people who have dedicated their lives to the rule of law (ie. the judge waltons, fitzgeralds, etc) will rise up to speak truth and rule of law to the neo-cons who are dismantling the country.
so, censure is on the table?
yellowsnapdragon @ 37
Don’t be surprised if you see a lot of pushback from the Wurlitzer on this. My outtamyarse guess is that the White House wouldn’t like Congress to get the idea that they can band together and call the President to account in any way, even if it’s a just a censure.
Swopa @ 24
You should have asked for mass resignations and voluntary submission to world court. Go for it.
Frank33 @ 41
it was only a massage. more of a conversation really. barely any touching at all. just a 250.00 ‘chat.’
Too Cool!
Mitt the Porn Man!!
If you are on the Deborah Jeane Palfrey list, raise your hand.
Which list? The client or the escort list?
I like the idea of framing the crime in simple terms…but rather than just say “Bush coddles”, I think it is *extremely* important to say that he commuted Libby’s sentence to protect the primary leaker in the Whte House this is the key I think… most Americans don’t get it and the Repubs keep framing it as “Bush is protecting his friend”…
glaringly sidestepping the fact that Bush is protecting his ass, or at the very least Cheney’s…. this is what could cause the house of cards to crumble.
Also… I’m not for censure… it is like a non-binding resolution… who tf cares?
YES!!! (sorry I had to shout. it’s a great idea)
yellowsnapdragon @ 36
I think it’s called a shot across the bow, which, you know, isn’t meant to hit. It gets the attention of the potential target and makes sure all the spectators are looking.
For when the next shot is fired.
Whereas Arthur Brown, former Asian Division chief of the CIA, stated that, “cover and tradecraft are the only forms of protection one has and to have that stripped away because of political scheming is the moral equivalent to exposing forward deployed military units”;
Could not put it better. No underlying crime my arse.
People in Spain really know how to demonstrate.
Yeah, which is why–I hate to say it–I’m not so sure censure will pass. Those Bushies really stick together when their a**es are on the line.
AZ Matt @ 47
Hottmitt
Censure is not enough…
Censure might actually work for those “moderate ” Republicans who are trying to distance themselves from W in anticipation of the 2008
debacleelections. They’d never sign on to impeachment proceedings but censure…now there’s a thought.i wonder if this could become an election issue ‘meme.’
you know my opponent supportedthe Libby pardon and I’m wondering if he’d/she’d care to explain why
If censure passed I fear it would be successfully pushed as an accountability job well done.. bad president, bad boy. Now lets bomb something.
If I could be convinced censure was a step to impeachment and war crimes court I would support it wholeheartedly.
Margot @ 42
Or you can go here for some simple instructions on writing html code. It includes how to write out the code for a link.
no censure isn’t enough. neither is 30 months.
but hey sometimes a cup of weak tea beats no tea.
cc in nm @50…The Republicans “framed” the crime in 1996..This law was directed at the North Vietnamese..now it’s time to “hoist the Republicans by their own law
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 118 > § 244
§ 2441. War crimes
(a) Offense.— Whoever, whether inside or outside the United States, commits a war crime, in any of the circumstances described in subsection (b), shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for life or any term of years, or both, and if death results to the victim, shall also be subject to the penalty of death.
(b) Circumstances.— The circumstances referred to in subsection (a) are that the person committing such war crime or the victim of such war crime is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act).
(c) Definition.— As used in this section the term “war crime” means any conduct—
(1) defined as a grave breach in any of the international conventions signed at Geneva 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party;
(2) prohibited by Article 23, 25, 27, or 28 of the Annex to the Hague Convention IV, Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, signed 18 October 1907;
(3) which constitutes a violation of common Article 3 of the international conventions signed at Geneva, 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party and which deals with non-international armed conflict; or
(4) of a person who, in relation to an armed conflict and contrary to the provisions of the Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Mines, Booby-Traps and Other Devices as amended at Geneva on 3 May 1996 (Protocol II as amended on 3 May 1996), when the United States is a party to such Protocol, willfully kills or causes serious injury to civilians.
I have to dissent on this point. I think that censure will be shrugged off (correctly) as purely symbolic. Look at what happened to the Vote of No Confidence for Gonzo. If that had been a bill of impeachment he would have either been convicted of the dissenters would have had to go on the record saying his actions were OK.
The only meaningful action is impeachment.
I’m very disappointed in Henry.
Elliott @ 56
last week it was Mitt’s mutt, now it’s Mitt’s smut
Other Pat @ 11
I remember them. I’ve seen the giant can of fruit cocktail they had at their cannery in Sunnyvale, too. (It was a paint job on a water tower: a really big can of fruit cocktail! And it said Libby’s Libby’s Libby’s on the label label label.)
I want the censure (and the impeachment, assuming it gets that far) to say Libby Libby Libby, as well as Bush and Gonzo and Cheney.
I fail to see the serious and oh-so-profound lesson future generations (including future generations of elected officials) will learn by reading that an attempt was made to censure a president for commuting a sentence. Not when the same president has broken multiple laws in plain sight. FISA. HATCH.
If other FDL bloggers are correct, he is also exposed to Obstruction as well.
And what, pray tell, would an impeachment effort distract from? The huge volume of wonderful progressive bills being pumped through the Senate?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 23
OMG!!!
I had no idea! Thanks much for the PurpleMath linkie.
realworld @ 64
Steve T. @ 52
I’ll accept it as that. Scarecrow’s comment above has persuaded me that it would be a good conversation starter with the right framing.
AZ Matt @ 48,
Porno, gay marriage, and school prayer are exactly the kinds of issues that Republics want for the coming campaign. They definately do not want to have to run on their records. I only hope that the Democrats are enough of a party to keep the campaign focused where it belongs.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 69
punaise @ 65
And Fred was Nixon’s stoolpidgeon:
Fred the Fink!!!!!!!
sorry for taking up space. my comments are not posting.
Nixon wasn’t forced to resign because the rethugs failed to band together. In fact they were trying to save him behind the screens the whole time. They were force into it because the facts were so stark they knew they would sink with him if they didn’t abandon his ship.
Impeach!
punaise @ 65
snork!
punaise @ 65
you know, punaise, I’m just gonna bite my tongue on this one…
Just an observation…Called the White House today (just to let them know the furor was not a one day thing) and a young man answered. Unlike the usual people who answer the phones on the comment line, he was ready with the GOP talking points. Must have had to recruit the ditto heads to man the phones to blunt the anger. Maybe those fools, college Rethuglicans, were recruited to tell us that this was the same as what Clinton did. I did point out that a blow job and treason were entirely different reasons for lying. A blow job is not illegal, while treason is… at least it was in all other administrations.
Hmmm . . . that was fast, wasn’t it?
For all the pondering about “what is a ’swopa’?”, perhaps the answer is simple. Could it be that “Swopa” is actually Wexler?
;)
Censure makes a lot of sense, as a “sense of the house” resolution of condemnation. Conyers will enjoy leading that discussion, perhaps as part of his hearings.
Don’t settle for easy just because right is harder.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 74
MWS, are your words showing up inside realworld’s @ 72?
Mitt’s latest misplaced sop to the fundies:
“Hallelujah! I’m porn again!”
jmba @ 21
Click on the http bar at the top of the screen. Once it’s blue, go edit to copy. Come back to FDL, write your comment, and go edit to paste.
That’s not the fancy way of putting a word instead of a link, but it works. I don’t know the better way…
You know, I’m for whatever it takes to end this MADNESS! Bring it all on.
casual observer @ 67
I don’t see a censure vote as excluding other efforts at impeachment. They’re not mutually exclusive. A censure vote forces Republicans to defend special treatment for Bush cronies — something the’ll be loath to take into the 2008 elections. And anything that calls attention to the regime’s disrespect of law and unfair admin of justice works for the Democrats. I don’t see a downside.
And you can’t impeach for the commutation per se, because a Pres has the right to do it. It’s only relevant if you can prove it’s part of a conspiracy to obstruct justice — I believe it is, but proving it to the pubic requires more than we have, IMO.
The most important outcomes in the next year and a half are beginning the end of the occupation of Iraq, avoiding an attack on Iran, and winning the Presidency while maintaining the majority in Congress.
One thing is certain, Bush is very unpopular right now and the commution of Libby needs to be seized as an opportunity to further expose Republicans who align with backwards Bush policy.
I think there are different ways to achieve the above. Impeachment might also carry the greatest risk for the same desired outcome. Censure fits. Censure also does not exclude the potential for further action.
Censure is a high profile way to [b]amplify/b] how wrong McCained, Ruudy, Mitt, and Fred are. Incredibly, they all support the various unpopular stances Bush takes. Censure arguably looks like the best way to kill two birds with one stone.
The most immediate need is to build the momentum to defund the war this Sept. The Libby commution could be the break we’ve been looking for. A censure could be an efficient and effective pivot bewteen now and then to realize this goal.
perris @ 26
The only thing that I thought would be a valuable addition to Wexler’s version would be to mention of the 12 jurors who unanimously (and beyond doubt) found him guilty of the charges. It would fit in well in the paragraph mentioning Judge Walton.
The Wurlitzer is warming up as I type.
Censure works for me as it is the one thing these spineless people can build upon.
I’ll take any action that sticks to a single Republican. Fight on all fronts. Weaken them however we can. Never give up. Censure is a fine beginning. And make them wear every single crumb. No More Bygones.
1. Censure.
2. Impeach.
3. Firing Squad.
4. Big bowl of popcorn.
Yum.
[Mod Note; let’s try to avoid the references to forms of capital punishment. Thanks.]
Oklahoma kiddo @ 23
There is a strong case to be made that by cummuting Libby’s sentence Bush has abused the pardon power in a way which the framers saw as grounds for suspending the president from office while conducting the impeachment investigation
how do you like them apples? Like the firing of the US Attorneys, the President can do this for nay reason or no reason EXCEPT a reason that in and of itself is illegal.
So, if the president fired a USA becasue that person refused to bring indictments unsupported by evidence–that would be an abuse of his power to fire.
If the president commuted Scooter’s sentence to take away any pressure on Scooter to “flip” and cease his conitnuing obstruction of justice (remember folks, it ain’t just perjury), then the very use fo the pardon power in this manner would itself be a form of obstruction of justice and would constitute an “abuse” rather than a “use” of the pardon power (from which, by common law, the power to commute is derived)
Sparkles the Iguana @ 90
1. Censure
2. Impeach
3. Send in leg-irons to the Hague
4. Make reparations to Iraq
5. Dance in streets
de-lurk
OT, but only slightly
Could someone please re-post the HR # for the bill to impeach Cheeney? I want to call my rep and urge him to support it. I called his local office on Tuesday am, but didn’t know at the time that there was a bill in the works, so I only urged him in to support any investigation into potential impeachment (and at the time, I meant Chimpy, but Cheeney is a worthwhile target as well, IMHO).
Thank you very much, Firepups! I’m having a blast here, lurkin’ and learnin’ and laughin’!
And I also had Uncle Visa pony up $100 to support the outstanding reportage here.
Funnydiva
/delurk
Loo Hoo. @ 83
Loo Hoo, check out myy link at #61. It describes how to do the html without using the little buttons so conveniently provided by FDL. I have found that typing everything out works easier for me than trying to manipulate the buttons correctly. And generally far more forgiving of my errors.
Scarecrow @ 85
Impeachment requires public pressure. The congressional discussion and debate over censure for the commutation would really ratchet up that pressure on every GOP member of the House.
And in contrast to the Senate, the house members are all up for election next year — every one of them would have to answer for his or her vote next fall, and in many cases, that is not something that they will enjoy thinking about if this resolution makes it to the house floor. Some are in safe enough districts to survive voting to support Bush on this, but others will be treading on very thin ice.
As a next step, I like this a lot. As a final step, not at all. But from what I’ve seen of Wexler, this is NOT a final step.
:)
The more votes by Congress critters the better. Force K-Street and Republicans to defend Cheney, Rove and what’s his face, as many times as possible.
dakine01 @ 94
remember: Preview is your friend, and she is looking out for your best interests.
punaise @ 65
Last week it was Mitt’s poochie, now it’s Mitt’s c**chie.
Bustednuckles @ 88
Geez, people are criticizing Clinton as though he pardoned people who broke the law on his behalf, too.
The bowtied puke Tucker is on. How can Clinton criticize a presidential pardon? he pardoned a child molester, etc. puke.
Funnydiva2002 @ 92
Tell your Uncle Visa thanks, and don’t be shy about jumping in!
As for finding specific resolutions and bills, THOMAS at the Library of Congress has a wonderful search engine for just that purpose.
looseheadprop @ 91
So how to we get this in motion?
Scarecrow @ 85
I believe there may be some misreading here. The original post gives the opinion that impeachment would be a distraction. One of my points is–a distraction from what?
Also, I mentioned HATCH and FISA violations as basis for impeachment, not the commutation. But if the commutation does in fact look like obstruction to congress, then why could they not add that in impeachment article as well? I note that the very first objection listed in the Declaration of Independence is: “He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.” If it is good enough for Thomas, it is certainly good enough for this congress.
Just go home and watched Tweety who (loving to trash the Clintons whenever and however he can) allowed
Uncle TomRon Christie to get away with blah blah blah about Clinton’s pardons. Excuse me but could someone who represents the Dems please make thepoint that Ronnie Raygun issued 393 pardons (DOJ Reagan pardon statistics) while Clinton opnly issued 396 in the same time period (see DOJ Clinton pardon statistics.) And pardoning Cap Weinburger and other Iran-Contra criminals was worse than pardoning Cisneros and Roger Clinton. And Libby was Marc Rich’s pardon attorney fer chrisakes.I know we have to stay on message, but until somebody with the facts jams them into the Wurlitzer really hard, organists like Tweety will continue to (and get away with) declaring debares about Bush’s obstruction of justice and previous pardons as “ties.”
thanks swopa.
censure-well, at least it would be more documented historical evidence that he’s the worst president ever…….
anyone know about past censures? i’m on dial-up, so, google is not my friend……..
AND al gore is on larry king tonight.
now back to catch up on threads from today……..