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At one time I used to believe the Santayana's saying that those who didn't study history were doomed to repeat it. But eventually I realized that's not quite true - rather when the people who have lived history die, the way is open for history to repeat itself.
Back in the early 70's a proposal was made to repeal the securities regulation that required that short sales on stock (selling a stock now, but delivering it a later date, in the hope that the price has gone down by the time you have to deliver) only be done on an up-tick in price of the stock.
Leave aside the merit of that regulation for the time being, it came into existence as part of the New Deal, after the Great Crash.
In the 70's a proposal to repeal it got nowhere. There was a huge public outcry, and it was shelved.
In June of this year, the up-tick rule was ended by the SEC.
No one outside the securities industry cared and it barely made the news.
Likewise the primary securities law which came out of the Great Depression, the Glass-Steagall Act, was repealed in 1999.
Wisdom, I believe, is learning from other people's mistakes. And wisdom is always rare. Most of us have to learn by suffering the consequences of our own foolishness and stupidity.
And when the people who have learned those lessons are no longer around in sufficient numbers (because they're dead), society repeats the mistakes that those fools suffered from and tried to prevent happening again.
It's for this reason that the great age of repeal of the New Deal began in the mid 70's and took full steam during the 80's and 90's. The people who had been adults during the Great Depression were mostly not in power any more. Those from the "Greatest" generation who were in power had generally been children in the Great Depression, and even if adults, did not remember what came before the Great Depression with any clarity - the Roaring 20's. So, step by step, they repealed almost all of the New Deal - leaving only a few great spars left such as Medicare and Social Security, which had strong popular support.
And it's really the twenties that are of interest right now - not the Great Depression, but the era that caused it. The period we're living though today is very similar to that time especially in terms of attitude (business was king in the 20's, for example). There are also some significant differences between America's position and policies then and now, and they're very revealing as well.
So, without further ado, let's examine how the Roaring 20's led to the Great Depression.
Unequal Distribution of Productivity Gains
The vast majority of productivity gains during the 20's went to the rich and corporations. Wages for ordinary workers did not keep up with profits and neither did the money paid to farmers (at that time still the largest part of the population). As a result money rushed into speculation, and while consumer driven buying rose at a merry clip for some time (for example, rising at an annual rate of 7.4% in 1927-28) it eventually collapsed.
Tax Policies Which Favored the Rich and Corporations
The twenties saw a significant reduction in taxation on the rich, including the amount of the estate tax and on capital gains. The result was to fuel speculation in the stock market since marginal new money to the rich goes largely not into consumption (in modern day terms, if you make a million a year, what are you going to do with an extra 100K? Odds are you already own everything material you want. So you "invest" it.)
High Savings Rates
US economic policy heavily favored saving, and Americans saved heavily. The result of this was that the money saved was not used to purchase goods, and thus did not prop up demand. It was used for loans, however those loans were usually for speculation, either in real-estate or in securities and not in primary investment in new business. The result, combined with tax policies and the uneven distribution of productivity gains, was to further depress demand.
Regulatory Laissez Faire
Coolidge and Hoover both believed that industry could regulate itself and as a rule they made sure that regulatory agencies did not interfere with business. As just one example, in 1930 he appointed James Good as head of the Federal Power Commission and in the words of Schlesinger in The Crisis of the Old Order (pg 156):
When the Commission was reorganized in 1930, staff members whose zeal had irritated the utilities were discharged; one of them, the former solicitor of the Commission, told the press that Hoover had personally intervened to prevent the rigorous application of the Federal Water Power Act to the private companies.
Sound familiar? In Coolidge's famous maxim, "the business of America, is business" and the Republican administrations of the 20s believed that business operated best when left alone to work its miracle largely undisturbed by regulation. Certainly there was much less regulation then than there is now (in large part because of the Great Depression) but what regulation there was was often not enforced with any rigor, and even when told of significant problems (as Hoover was, on more than one occasion, about stock market excesses) the response was always that the government should not intervene and often that it could not intervene.
High Tariffs and Loans for Export
The US of the 20's believed in building up industry behind tariff barriers, a policy followed by the US for decades. In the past the US had been a net debtor nation, but in the 20's it became a massive creditor nation, with other nations owing it fantastic amounts of money. Because tariffs made other nations exports to the US non price competitive, for them to buy US goods required the US to lend them the money. This US banks did, in massive amounts, and by some accounts the trigger for Black Thursday (the great stock market crash of 1929) was loan defaults. More to the point, to maintain US exports and thus production required these loans, which had to over time come to seem to those receiving them as being a bad idea; or simply unsupportable. Many recognized at the time that if the US wanted to sell to other nations letting them sell to the US, so they could get dollars to buy US goods with, made sense, but protectionism had built up US industry so successfully over such a long period that the US failed to realize that the situation had changed and the most industries no longer required protection for their survival and growth. Again, these policies depressed demand for US production - both for industrial goods and for farm produce especially (indeed the market for US agricultural exports crashed during the 20's.)
A General Overbuilding of Capacity
The US wound up, because of high investment and low returns to consumers, with manufacturing and agricultural capacity that could produce more than than consumers, or foreigners, could afford to buy. With money flooding into secondary securities (ie. not creating new work, but bidding up the price of already existing companies); with the workers not receiving most of the productivity gains, and with technology clocking in huge gains in production efficiency, the economy wound up with overcapacity. The gains flooded into security markets, bidding them up and when the stock market crashed, most of the profits of the 20's went with it. Consumers had already slowed down their purchases, and they proceeded to reduce them even further, even as business retrenched. The result was a very nasty demand crunch, where there just wasn't enough buying power to keep the economy going at full speed. End result: decession.
The Modern Day
There's a lot we can recognize in the 20's today, but it isn't all in America. The same laissez-faire "business knows best attitude" reigns; the same regulatory capture has occurred, where government simply refuses, at the behest of the executive branch, to oversee industry in any meaningful fashion. There are significant asset bubbles (the stock market in the 90's, the real estate bubble, carry trade, derivatives market and private equity in the 00's) as there were in the 20's. The vast majority of the gains of productivity (over 80%) of the last expansion have gone to the rich and to corporations, with almost none going to workers.
Like in the twenties, consumer spending has kept going despite the fact that consumers aren't getting their fair share. Unlike in the 20's the American consumer, and America as a whole, is a net debtor - Americans have kept consuming by borrowing. Estimates of how much money the US borrows range from 80% of the world's lendable money, to over 100%. (Yeah, over. In other words, all the legal money, plus a lot of the illegal money.) The American public has been running a literally negative savings rate, and so has the US government.
In the 20's the US was the new great industrial power behind tariff walls and with substantial trade surpluses Today it is in deficit. This parallels not the US in the 20's, but Britain in the 20's. At that time Britain had negative trade balances and Europe in general was in negative trade balance with the US. In order to buy cheap US goods they had to borrow the money, and the US was all too willing to lend.
Today that role is played by China and Japan. While China and Japan don't use classic tariffs as their primary economic subsidy for their internal industries the way the US did in the 20's, their strong intervention to keep their own currencies artificially low against the dollar (an intervention that is costing China about 10% of its entirely yearly GDP) functions the same way - a cheap Yuan or Yen makes their imports very competitive against made in America goods, and makes American manufactured goods (and American services) much less competitive in China. The massive gutting of manufacturing jobs over the last seven years is probably at least two thirds the result of these subsidies, and the massive trade and balance-of-payment deficits are also exacerbated by this policy.
The US's consumption is fueled by what amount to Chinese and Japanese loans, and the Chinese internal economy is not sufficient to absorb the products of thier own manufacturing capacity.
Meanwhile, in China, by the end of January, there were 80 million retail brokerage accounts (when you consider the size of the Chinese middle class, this is astonishing). The Shanghai stock exchange is on a tear, real estate in much of China's coastal areas is rising at double digit rates every year and savings accounts are paying 3% or less. Like the US in the 20's, and unlike America today, the Chinese have a huge savings rate (around 50%). And in another, eerie presage of the Great Depression, soil erosion in China's interior, where the majority are still farmers, is out of control and leading to dust storms. (The Great Depression was made much worse by huge dust storms as the prairie top soil blew away after years of being abused combined with a few years of drought.)
History, they say, doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme. If there is to be a new Great Depression, something I believe is probable, it won't occur exactly as it did in the 20's. But the outlines of how it happened last time tell us a lot about how it could happen this time. And what we see - with a rising mercantile power using protectionist policies while the old power engages in laissez-faire business policies; in the way that productivity gains are being concentrated in the hands of the few; in the refusal to use regulatory power; in excessive and repeated asset bubbles; in irrational exuberance and inflation in China; along with the absolutely sickeningly frightening American savings rates and multiple deficits leads one to believe that it's very likely that history is about to rhyme again. When the Napoleonic wars ended it was predicted that there would be no great general European war again for as long as the memory of the memory existed. And indeed, it was almost exactly a century after Waterloo that World War I, that splendid brief war, got underway. I don't think it's going to take us a century from 1929 to finish repeating the mistakes that led to the Great Depression, perhaps because the human lust for blood is only exceeded by the human capacity for greed.
And it was greed that ultimately caused the Great Depression. It is, likewise, untrammeled unrepentant greed, celebrated as a civic virtue, rather than as the vice it is, that will cause the next Depression.
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Ian, I think they have deserted us for facebook…excellent post. I do have one small caveat: I think the next depression won’t happen until we can have a true conventional world war or large theatre was between major powers. At that point, one side will start sinking the other’s mechant shipping, that side will retaliate, and poof! no more global economy. all the tinkering with bank balances and shifting phoney money around won’t make up for no goods on the shelves and no assembly lines running, no salespeople needed to sell non-existent items, and the whole service economy collapses in on itself.
Just my .02…
Ian -
What kind of power were they using then? :) (I know you meant 1930 instead of 1030.)
Fascinating post. I’m going to be leaving to go hear some music in just a little bit. People have to try to stay out of debt. Payoff everything you can.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 3
Woops! Thanks, fixed.
Friday night the stockmarket was down 186plus, but maybe that is just one of those corrections.
LS @ 4
And don’t mortgage your house to buy ipod gear.
LS @ 6
The market would have to lose 4000 points in one day to really hurt us now. Anything else is just random noise by the arbitrageurs. (look that one up on wiki, it’s a fascinating subject all in itself.)
Alfred Kelgarries @ 7
Yup. Better to buy land and pitch a tent, than to have a huge mortgage you can’t afford. People are getting caught up in this right and left.
When the lenders get tight, they call their loans if they can - afterall, it’s theirs until it is paid off.
Thanks, Ian, great meaty post.
LS @ 4
Even though I’m unemployed, when I cashed in the retirement plan this year, I paid off all the plastic, leaving me with just the basics like rent, utilities, food…
LS @ 9
what kills me is that people have a house they bought for say, 40,000 20 years ago, almost paid off. It is now worth 100,000. Do they sit tidy on the value and wait to give to their kids, or use it as a cushion for unexpected retirement expenses? No. they get a home equity loan with ballon payments and go spend that equity for cruises, electronics, gambling. A decade later, when they sudden NEED that equity, it is all gone. Grrrrr. And the titans of congress like Ted Kennedy are very well aware of this. the minute they get their chance they are going to clamp down on it via the FNMA and SLMA (or whatever) in some fashion. we should hit Ted’s web site to see his proposal, I know he did a press conference on it shortly after the dem takeover…
WOW, Ian
I’ve watched with increasing fear the almost systematic return to pre-Crash financial regulations.
Thanks for laying it all out for us.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 13
Well, let’s say you “bought” a house 30 years ago for 160,000. Every month for 30 years you pay approximately 1600 per month mortgage. Do the math. With inflation…bad news. It is the American Myth, not the American Dream.
For many, they are already in an economic depression. And have been for quite sometime.
Outstanding post, Ian. Are there “canaries in the coal mine” we should be watching for?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
Boy, ain’t that the truth!!
LS @ 15
Oh, I never said it was a PROFITABLE investment. But if you have managed to accumulate market equity, it just seems a shame to pee it all away for zip.
We have to get rid of borrowing money and loaning money at interest. It’s like positive feedback on a steering wheel. Eventually all the money ends up in the hands of the interest chargers, yet they have provided no good or service, only access to goods and services. Not a marxist by ANY means, but any good systems analyst can figure that one out real fast. (disclaimer: IANAE).
What about the Fed?
Scarecrow @ 17
there’s a little factory back down behind my house, I can see the workyard from my back door. When I first moved here, it was three shifts humming. I liked that, btw, they literally had my back.
A couple years ago, they got overtaken by a mega-corporation. Wasn’t three shifts very often after that. And now they are closing the place.
$2 billion per week on Iraq.
I was told that 4 or 5 people on my street had their homes foreclosed.
I’m paid off and the house is falling apart, but it’s going to have to do.
My parents were married in 1928, and lived in the Dust Bowl area (OK). Boy, did I hear about the Depression!
Cure the depression have a war. A big war.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 22
Our money against our will. Nice going.
Margot @ 23
Oklahoma! ;0)
LS @ 20
actually, it should be the only bank in existence. and there should be no cash, but also no credit cards and checking accounts. money should be electronic and anonymous. go to an ATM, slide in a cash card (merchants would give em out with logos, like they have been started to do in europe, IIRC) do the ID thing (biometric connected to central FRB servers using massivly secure protocols), pull money from your FRB account into the card and go spend it. Mortgages and time payments (we still need those, just without interest) come out of your FRB account automatically. You also pay a small insurance premium for all time purchases to buy into a sinking fund which pays the payment if you lose your job or have a bad patch in business. None of this is my idea, it’s all been worked out decades ago by far, far wiser people than me. Problem is, they all live in Europe.
LS @ 25
;0)
Scarecrow @ 17
The hardest part, for me at least, is determing when these things will crack up. I was talking about the real estate bubble back in 2003, for example, and thought it would crash by late 2005. I was wrong.
That said - we have two economies right now, the normal one you probably live in; and the financialized one the elites live in where 20% returns in a year are expected, money is essentially free to borrow, etc… Their world is fantastically leveraged, with more money in derivatives and currency trade than the entire world economy (many times more). If that world is every forced to cover it bets, for any reason, than the entire house of cards could start coming down.
As for what the canary is - generalized uncontrollable inflation or deflation either in China or the US, is my guess. It could also easily be triggered by a war - for example an attack on Iran could trigger it, if Iran were to decide to really retaliate and shut down the strait. It could be caused either by an unwillingness of the US to continue borrowing to finance consumption; or of other nations to continue lending to the US for consumption (this happens when someone panics and thinks “I’m never getting this money back if I don’t pull out.”)
But I’m not sure, this is still something I’m thinking on. A friend of mine and I regularly have economic conversations and we always come down to “so, what’s going to cause this edifice of sticks to collapse?”
If many just barely make it from month to month, day to day, after the kids are fed, is that called a mild depression?
Margot @ 23
My dad grew up a sharecropper on a dirt farm at Muleshoe, Texas. My mom was the daughter of the largest chicken farmer in Witchita Falls, Tx until the depression ruined him (all his money was in a bank that failed). he started over with a small barbership cutting hair. He collected coins of all sorts from this trade, and my mom inherited them, and in turn willed them to me. they’re in a bank safety box, no idea how much they are worth…
Ian Welsh @ 29
How much is the world economy propped up on military spending?
LS @ 20
The Fed has been pursuing very inflationary policies for a long time. At the least, about a decade now. This money has gone into asset bubbles, in attempts to sterilize it, and has lead to the divorce of the financial economy from the economy that most people live in.
Bernanke’s life work was trying to figure out how to stop the Great Depression from happening, so that FDR didn’t happen, so that the New Deal (which conservatives hate with a passion) didn’t happen. His conclusion (simplified) was that the monetary authority needed to flood the system with liquidity.
He’s probably wrong, because I think all that would have done is switch the flip from a deflationary depression to an inflationary depression, but he might not be. In either case, he intends to try. (And Greenie was a huge inflationist, for reasons that are less clear.)
Scarecrow @ 17
All things related to homeownership and the mortgage industry have been singing totenlied of late, at least in many key markets. I can hardly bear to try a quick overview at just this minute, but you might want to saunter over to either Calculated Risk, where they specialize in those sectors, or The Big Picture, where … well, you know. There you will find snarkiness at a familiar level, for familiar reasons.
Do our politicians have to worry about not enough money? Picture the money candidates will spend on 2008. And then factor in the 2 billion per week on Iraq. Is there something wrong with this picture?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
There sure is. We let them use our money to do these things that hurt us.
I don’t much like selfish people. How can being greedy make anyone happy?
Hey Kiddo! Yes, my mom the preacher’s daughter lived in so many little towns, because the Methodist church thought 2 years in any one place was jussst right.
From the sound of it, OK was in a depression for years before the Crash.
It sounds like this Bear Stearns hedgefund crisis, blamed for the market’s tanking on Friday, isn’t over:
Oklahoma kiddo @ 30
The average American is a net debtor, and the average American hasn’t seen a rise in hourly wages in about 30 years now. To keep standrds of livings up has required going in debt, extending work hours, etc…
For certain parts of the population then, the economy has been bad for a very long time. The stabilizers put in in the New Deal (things like SS, farm support, etc..) have kept that from errupting into Hoovervilles, but it’s very real.
Whether it should be called a Depression is another matter. Not, I would say, till the lending stops, however US economic figures are so distorted at this point that it’s hard to get a real accurate picture of what’s going on. The late Oldman, who I wrote with, claimed that his figures for inflation, after stripping out Hedonics and other BS, showed that the US economy was actually contracting from the late nineties. I don’t have his spreadsheets, and he died young, so I can’t confirm, but I do know that real economic growth figures would not be as high as the official ones.
My mother never had a credit card. She always told me “kiddo, if you don’t have the money to pay for it, you don’t need it”. Thanks Mom. You were right.
Ian @29:
The one difference we seem to have now (IMHO) is that governments know how to borrow from the future without triggering runaway inflation. During the Clinton years, a major new york bank got bit by a failed leverage on currency transactions. 8 billion dollars vanished before the bank’s senior officers could shut down the automatic trading programs and traders doing it. They were concave, all their reserve gone, all the overnight money from small banks all the way up to maine gone, their currency accounts way in the red. The bank’s president called the head of the FRB on his private line and said, “Get us 8 billion dollars by 9 am or no local bank north of long island will open tomorrow.” Said worthy got bill clinton out of bed, he got Newt and Lott (I think) up and they had ink on paper by 7 am. Never hit the MSM, but was covered as a minor matter by banking trade journals. The FRB took over the bank, cleaned it out and sold it off. The investors were ruined, of course, but the financial system stayed intact.
I think that’s why it is so hard to figure how the current house of card will come down. the normal vectors of failure have been spoofed.
Elliott @ 32
Not as much as you might think. However the US economy is quite dependent on it, as is the British. When the Iraq war ends, there will be a recession as a result. In general military spending is a structural problem - it is mostly not very productive and drains money from productive parts of the civilian economy.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 41
We don’t have a credit card but my brother will get one some day because he says you can’t rent a car without it. But we won’t use it. Just for that.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 24
I think that only works (when it does) if you’re not the country that started it.
SnarKassandra @ 44
No, cassie, that’s wrong. I use Wells Fargo debit cards and Hertz and National take them just fine. And my personal accounts are not large.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
And that’s the exact problem. As Diamond observed, problems that don’t effect the elites in society, don’t get fixed. For the people who run America - not just the politicians, but in business as well, things have, literally, never ever been better. They are richer than they have ever been, everyone they know is doing great.
For them - it’s a wonderful time to be American and the economy is working for everyone they know.
Excellent post, and in my business, so to speak, as an economic historian. One caveat. I, too, believe in the depreciating memory theory of policy mistakes, and to set the record straight, I predicted inflation in the 1990s or 2000s. I guess it is still to early for people to have forgotten the inflation of the late 70s.
That most people have forgotten the depressionis obvious from their spending. I haven’t. For my family it lasted until about 1951 when my father finally got some job security (he was out of work from 1930 to 1938). One big difference, though, is that we know more about the economy than we used to, despite all the efforts of the Universities of Chicago and Minnesota to try to get us to forget that, too.
Ian Welsh @ 40
It just seems again that they use our money to pay for property they know we might not be able to pay in full over time for various reasons, meanwhile they own it until it is paid off; tons of people end up in default, and somebody ends up with a lot of property that someone else already paid for it. It’s gambling. It sounds calculated to me.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 46
Oh OK. I didn’t know that. We don’t need to rent a car but some day if we go away on vacation we might.
if we do have a depression or some kind of financial crisis, i hope we (meaning the whole world) go the FDR route and not the hitler route.
this may be stupid, but our response to finanical disaster scares me just as much as the financial hardship.
The depression played a huge role in the run up to WWII. What will happen if we have an economic tumble while we are all ready fighting wars in tinder-boxes.
I’m going back under the bed now
SnarKassandra @ 50
Yes. I cannot reccommend wells fargo as a bank enough. they were HUGELY helpful to my dad and me when my wife died and when he developed his alzheimers. I know that they do engage in predatory lending and other bad stuff, but all I want is a bank that isn’t out to skin me alive. And they have branches all over the country and a really great web portal system.
selise @ 51
Exactly, the US got lucky with FDR. It very easily could have gotten a fascist dictatorship out of it. I’ve been reading Schlessinger on Roosevelt, and it’s something he makes very clear - people wanted it fixed, and a lot of them were willing to give up their freedoms to have it fixed (the right, of course, would argue that they did give up many of their freedoms. Nonetheless there is a qualitative difference between FDR and Mussolini or Hitler that even they have to admit exists.)
Elliott @ 52
The Iraqis recently found out the answer to that one.
Elliott @ 52
quit shoving. you’re not the only one under here, y’know!
Alfred Kelgarries @ 56
Hey, move over, because my monitor is really big!! Ouch!
Ian @54
Where else do you blog? and have you published anything recently? I swear your name is familiar, but I just can’t place it…
Ian Welsh @ 47
it is this, more than anything, what makes me worried that we’re not going to make it…. and not just financially, but environmentally as well. jared diamond’s study of failed societies does not give me warm fuzzies.
Let them eat grapes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....s&NR=1
Knut Wicksell @ 48
Back in the 70’s I thought a significant piece of the inflation was the doubling, then quadrupling of oil prices, starting from only a few dollars/barrel. An economy running on very cheap oil had to take a hit, as those input price hikes worked their way through every sector that depended on oil. Not much we could do — and Nixon even tried price regulation, controlled gas prices at the well head, and Carter tried to ban oil use in power plants.
But that’s not what we face now. With the economy now pegged to much higher oil/gas prices, and commodity prices mostly deregulated. It’s a little hard to see how we get inflation rates like that again, or interest rates over 10-12 percent again. What would trigger these?
You may want to acknowledge that Chinas industry and growth is mainly based upon the migrant workforce (about 300 million people, working 12-16 hours a day for next to zip, but that’s not the point). These people come from small rural villages in central and northwestern China. Some of these villages ceased to exist, since the young ones wandered off and the old ones died after some pharma companys paid them good yuan for their blood and due to sloppy procedures infected whole villages with AIDS. If you consider how China handled, say, the bird flu or SARS … well, the migrant workforce will be saturated with AIDS in about a decade and Chinas industry will implode. FYC.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 58
ian is managing editor at the agonist, and before that he wrote at bopnews… there may be more, that’s all i know of…
Great post, Ian. It gives structure and details to my what I have been fearing.
We’re the people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....g&NR=1
selise @ 63
That’s it. Excellent!
BTW somewhat OT but not really:
PKK Stages Suicide Attack and Ground Assault On Police Station In Turkey.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 19
We have to get rid of borrowing money and loaning money at interest. …. Eventually all the money ends up in the hands of the interest chargers, yet they have provided no good or service, only access to goods and services. Not a marxist by ANY means, but any good systems analyst can figure that one out real fast. (disclaimer: IANAE).
The main interest charger is the FED, a private bank in the hands of a tiny international elite. I have a good education but was never told that the German Bundesbank was fashioned after it, also being a private bank, contrary to what the name would suggest.
The money people lend to whoever promises interest, hence they lend to both sides in a war. Hence, they are pretty pleased about Iraq, for sure. Also, some island in the English Channel (Guernsey? I forgot which) practices a different kind of exchange. Now there is what would be at the root of true democracy.
Thanks for the post. Feeling strongly economics have to be looked at. As I said, I never knew that there was an alternative to a system based on debt.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 46
fwiw - in april, a friend i was traveling with had reserved a rental car - it may have been Dollar - and we had to put it on my credit card because they wouldn’t take her debit card.
I’m one of those caught up in living check to check. I live fairly bare of fripperies for the most part. I’ve got just enough to pay for my meds that i need so i don’t end up in the ER with an asthma attack or severe pain from my endometriosis. But that’s just becuase i work for a pharmacy that gives halfway decent ’script and med benefits.
But there’s very little money for me to do other than live, not much for pleasureable things like movies more than once every few months. I’d need a second job to more than break even at this point. I keep considering it and then push it away, because i’ve worked two jobs before and i’d rather not. Working as a streaming DJ comes pretty close, though.
Scarecrow @ 61 :
It’s a little hard to see how we get … interest rates over 10-12 percent again. What would trigger these?
if a certain number of small loans don’t get repaid at all, the risk needs to be spread - onto the debtors. and lo, higher interest rates.
greenwarrior @ 68
not all debit cards work, and not all rental agencies do this. but WF and Hertz have been just fine for some years now on debit cards.
I think there is a lot of questionable debt in the market and it is just starting to get noticed. One thing to watch is how much the banking industry up its bad debt reserve over the next two quarters.
The Bear Sterns mess may be the beginning of more troubling problems in housing. Also, I think people are starting the food/fuel pinch; and something has got to give.
In short, the snowball is just starting to roll down the hill.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 71
personally, i’ve never rented from Hertz because their prices are so much higher than some of the others. usually, i shop price for rental cars and often go with Enterprise.
My Dad always said, Oh, they’ll just print more money…they own the mint. What exactly does that mean? Is that some kind of safety valve ultimately?
I am half way through “Deer Hunting with Jesus” which explores many of the same economic areas and also the paradox of the “Bush’s base” whites voting against their own self interest. The first chapter if titled “American Serfs” and sub-titled “Inside the White Ghetto of the Working Poor”. This country is a hollow economic shell and it is starting to crack.
greenwarrior @ 73
Yes, that’s true. As always, a tradeoff.
ok. now that we’re all freaked out and hiding under the bed…
what kind of policy changes would you (anyone) suggest to begin to unwind the imbalances?
how to start to correct the system w/o creating a crisis? what should we be asking our congress critters and presidential candidates for?
Ian Welsh @ 29
i guess my question is, if money isn’t safe in the market, or sometime soon won’t be safe in the market, where is it safe?
What’s really fantastic, is if an economic depression hits again, there will be nobody for you to collect from. If you’ve got money in the bank or a retirement policy, or whatever, you have been paying on for years, forget it. It’s gone. You are on your own.
LS @ 74
Up to a point it is. But if people start thinking the money isn’t worth much, you get high inflation. Really print too much, and you can get hyperinflation.
This is a comment that I tried to put in its proper place in Ultra-EPU-land, two threads back, but the thread wasn’t taking any new comments, for some reason.
I had wondered what was going on in the minds of people on the right, as I could not figure out their motivations from reason, humanism, theology, self-interest, or anything else. Several people responded, and one word popped out at me: ‘threatened’. (Thanks, GordonM AT 104)
Maybe that’s it. 1/25 of the people walking around have never experienced sex, I hear. Whoodathunkit. Maybe 1/4 of the people are terrified that they won’t make it through life, that their little bit is so hard to get and so hard to hold on to, that somebody else (probably belonging to a group which is different from theirs and which doesn’t, therefore, understand their problems).
How are they going to pay the bills if they get sick? How are they going to keep a roof over their family’s heads?
People in that condition would be easily led, witness Germany between the wars.
What is interesting is that this suggests that universal health insurance, the assurance of an income you can live on, a plentitude of good jobs would ease people’s fears AND MAKE THEM LESS SUSCEPTIBLE TO DEMAGOGUERY!
(Darn. I think that that’s important.) No wonder the right thinks that socialism is so dangerous: implement programs that reduce fear in the populace and your mob crumbles.
LS @ 74
Ian will answer this much better, but here is the grisly end result from the past: linky.
greenwarrior @ 78
With you, under the bed!!
Steve @ 75
i think we have to recognize that the economic problems are not all of bush’s making. dems have a responsibility for this too…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 79
That has already happened. Remember the S and L bailout. People who had more than 100,000 were told their “excess” even in DIFFERENT BANKS was lumped into their overall total and therefore lost. Friend of mine who had inherited a number of rent properties and had sold them and put the money into high yield S and L bonds took a real bath on that one.
This is a comment that I tried to put in its proper place in Ultra-EPU-land, two threads back, but the thread wasn’t taking any new comments, for some reason. Now that I look over this thread, it doesn’t seem so OT after all.
I had wondered what was going on in the minds of people on the right, as I could not figure out their motivations from reason, humanism, theology, self-interest, or anything else. Several people responded, and one word popped out at me: ‘threatened’. (Thanks, GordonM AT 104)
Maybe that’s it. 1/25 of the people walking around have never experienced sex, I hear. Whoodathunkit. Maybe 1/4 of the people are terrified that they won’t make it through life, that their little bit is so hard to get and so hard to hold on to, that somebody else (probably belonging to a group which is different from theirs and which doesn’t, therefore, understand their problems).
How are they going to pay the bills if they get sick? How are they going to keep a roof over their family’s heads?
People in that condition would be easily led, witness Germany between the wars.
What is interesting is that this suggests that universal health insurance, the assurance of an inco