Doesn't anybody here want to end this war? That was the question Matt Yglesias asked on Monday:
That we can be in the midst of a primary campaign during which the candidates are supposedly looking to "pander" to the dread damn dirty hippies of the base and yet none of the front-running candidates will make a clear promise to leave Iraq and attack his or her rivals for failing to do the same is rather astounding.
This was in response to a comment by Atrios, who replied shortly afterward:
. . . "residual force" isn't just a grand idea favored by press wankers, but also many presidential candidates. Without getting into the minutiae there is a difference between a residual force in neighboring relatively friendly countries (Kuwait) and a residual force sitting in the middle of the crossfire, but nonetheless the idea that we need to be sitting there just in case is a widely embraced idea.. . . I would like the people who advocate this 50,000 forever model to actually spend a few seconds thinking about just what they imagine those troops spending their days doing.
To be fair, though, the New York Times ran an interview-based article on Hillary Clinton a few months ago in which she did exactly that:
In the interview, she suggested that it was likely that the fighting among the Iraqis would continue for some time. In broad terms, her strategy is to abandon the American military effort to stop the sectarian violence and to focus instead on trying to prevent the strife from spreading throughout the region by shrinking and rearranging American troop deployments within Iraq.. . . “We would not be doing patrols,” she added. “We would not be kicking in doors. We would not be trying to insert ourselves in the middle between the various Shiite and Sunni factions. I do not think that’s a smart or achievable mission for American forces.”
And, as it happens, on Tuesday all three candidates took turns making similar arguments (helpfully documented, with video excerpts, by TPM Cafe). Conceptually, Edwards and Obama came from the same angle as Clinton -- that while the U.S. cannot remain in the middle of Iraq's civil war, we have an interest in helping prevent the one catastrophe that is still avoidable: a regional war where Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other countries in the Middle East involve themselves directly as a way to influence who wins the power struggle inside Iraq.
There are valid reasons to favor a 100% withdrawal (which I'll get to in a moment), but it's important to recognize that Clinton, Obama, and Edwards are neither crazy nor victims of neocon mind control for leaving the door open to a "residual force." Indeed, the fact that they cling to these stands despite the clear 2008-primary benefits of taking a stronger antiwar stance should be taken as a sign that they really do believe what they're saying, and don't want to make a commitment now they might have to renege on in the White House in 2009.
The simple truth is that, probably as a conscious Bush/Cheney fallback strategy, Iraq has no meaningful air force or other infrastructure for protecting its borders. So if, after a complete U.S. withdrawal, Turkey decided it might be a good idea to grind Kurdistan into a fine powder, they might just take a swing at it. And while it's far too late to keep Iran from a major role in a post-occupation Iraq, it's not clear that Saudi Arabia and other neighboring Sunni countries are willing to accept that fait accompli. So all the ingredients for a regional war are there, unless someone is willing to set up an unofficial fence around the Iraqi abyss until the dust, smoke, and blood of the factional infighting has settled.
The only remotely accurate analogy between the situation in Iraq and our longstanding presence in South Korea is that a tripwire of U.S. forces on Iraq's borders could be an effective deterrent to a wider catastrophe, just as it's prevented war between Pyongyang and Seoul. Then again, though, it might not -- and this is the reality that Edwards, Obama, and Clinton need to face.
After all, we've long since lost our ability to impose our will on Iraq or the region (though that hasn't seeped into Dick Cheney's brain yet). So any residual presence will need to depend on establishing a non-intervention agreement among Iraq's neighbors that we can then police... and since this relies on Turkey reconciling itself to Kurdistan's existence, and Saudi Arabia facing the reality that Iraq's Shiite majority will govern the country, no such agreement may be possible. Similarly, if our remaining troops become targets for Iraqi factions wanting to draw us back into the fray, a full withdrawal is inevitable -- the American public won't stand for an endless stream of coffins flying back to the States, no matter what the candidates say now.
Also, however morally compelling it might be to try to prevent the worst from happening, it's already a given that our troops will have no choice but to stand aside and watch the escalating carnage whenever we pull our troops back, either completely or partially. So very painful choices are going to have to be made in any event.
The way that Obama, Edwards, and Clinton ought to frame their stances, to avoid boxing themselves in on either side, is not by promising to keep troops in Iraq or to take all of them out. Rather (as I've been trying to say for two years now), we need to reinstate the Powell Doctrine, which used to be the essential contract between our government and a volunteer military. If there's a mission that we can be essentially certain of accomplishing with minimal casualties -- and clear ground rules for when that situation no longer holds -- then I'm fine with some troops remaining in Iraq. If not, then every last one should come home. That's a simple standard I think voters across the political spectrum will find easy to grasp.
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Hey Swopa!
Stupidity. Just pure, unadulterated stupidity put us into Iraq in the first place and keeps us there beyond all evidence of how our presence exacerbates the bad situation and makes it worse.
Let me be crystal clear on this. I want out of Iraq now. Completely out. This is why I voted Democratic last November. Democrats. What part of this do you not understand?
IT’S NOT A WAR IT’S AN OCCUPATION
This is an important point. Occupations cannot be won, only ended. And you go to war for entirely different reasons than you conduct an occupation. We REALLY need to stay on-message about referring to our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan as Mid-East occupations, because that’s what they are.
Calling these occupations “wars” lends them a moral weight and legitimacy that they do not deserve, against which any opposition is at an increased disadvantage. You can be a traitor for not supporting your country in war - not so much when it’s an occupation.
So… why does any candidate support the continued occupation of two Mideast countries? What do we gain from occupying Iraq and Afghanistan? What does the occupation of these two countries cost us?
We pulled out of Nam. I’m fed up with business in Iraq. And with my party.
dakine01 @ 5
Or maybe it is stupidity and most of the candidates are bought and paid for by Big Oil.
Democrats. Are you trying to force me to stay home on election day, 2008?
If someone could truly explain the mission in iraq, you know, in complete sentences that infer thinking and strategy and #### like that, then I would listen. I may not change my mind, but I would be hopeful that someone somewhere in our government is actually acting in a responsible manner.
Slogans like “win the peace” “protect iraqi people” “fight against evil” is not a plan or a strategy or a goal. It’s bullshit.
Our govt is playing pretty fast and loose other people’s lives (US and Iraqi). Let’s embed our leaders in with some troops to help them with their decidering.
Do you think big oil influences the DLC?
Unless Kucinich is elected, there will always be a number of U.S. troops and/or advisors in Iraq, unless Iraq expells the U.S. completely.
Well Swopa, I was sailing along with you (grumbling) and you had to whack me with the Powell Doctoring… You can’t buy something until you get the bull out of the China Shop… We are the bull. And how many times should we pay for something before we get the fact the item is not for sale, but the shop will keep taking your money.
Israeli General Oded Tira said,
“We must turn to Hillary Clinton … for support to attack Iran.”
Doesn’t Hillary have anyone in her circle who has studied military history and is willing to be honest? That plan of hers is a recipe for disaster. Steve Gilliard wrote quite a bit about the experience of French defeat at Dien Bien Phu. The French had a “base” there that was supplied by air only and it was isolated and crushed.
How’s this for a cheery foreshadowing of what can happen to us in Iraq, from the a military analysis:
what will they eat, sand?
this residual force will need to be supplied, those convoys will be attacked, they will need defending, so American soldiers will continue to come under fire… why?
Because a president Obama or Clinton will be afraid of going down in history as having lost Iraq, so will want to hunker down and pass the problem off to his/her successor.
As albatross said, it’s an occupation, and colonial occupations have not been very viable recently, have they?
Fewer and fewer people are deceiving themselves that the Democratic Party will do anything to really end the illegal, immoral, costly, destructive and useless occupation… so it’s time to start allowing discussion of alternatives if you beleive in the cause of peace, rather than just rooting for the (D) team to win.
From here on in for me it’s the Dems election to lose. The message is that America is fed up with Congress and the the prez.
I’m with Oklahoma Kiddo. It is beyond unconscionable to let one more of
our soldiers die in Iraq. What part of bring them home is so hard to understand?
Something I have never seen addressed is the future monetary costs of this occupation. We see what it has cost us so far, but what will the tab be for endless occupation? We have almost 9 trillion dollars in debt right now. Can we just keep borrowing and borrowing? Will it matter that our debt be 50 trillion dollars?100 trillion dollars? Can we just keep this going on indefinitely?
It may sound cold to talk about the financial ramifications of the war when there is such a high humanitarian cost to it, but it does need to be addressed. Doesn’t it?
“…all the ingredients for a regional war are there…” Yes, I agree, and the candidates must address how that eventuality could be avoided.
Mary McCurnin @ 9
I think you’re both right on the money. ;0)
fwiw, here are relevant parts of a letter I received today from Jim Webb in reponse to my inquiry about his vote on the supplemental:
I think the bottom line is that the military doesn’t know how to get out. If the order came to leave today..it would take, best estimate, thirteen months to extract people and equipment. That is if no one is shooting at the trucks driving down the single road to Kuwait. (Good luck with that hypothesis). What a fucking mess and it is going to get a lot worse.
i think they are addicted to the imperial world view. at this moment i do not trust virtually any of the dems to get us out of iraq - and i’m not just refering to the presidential front runners… today we had levin’s bs (thank you feingold for an awesome smack down)
and yesterday, in the house, via bernhard at moon of alabama, this important story about the house of representatives moving us closer to war with iran with yesterday’s vote on h.con.r.21.
the resolution begins:
but juan cole has said this charge isn’t correct.
the resolution had 103 co-sponsors. virtually the entire house voted for it, with only kucinich and paul voting against it. pelosi voted for it , mcgovern voted for it.
Albatross @ 7
You’re right. Afghanistan was a War, although a rather one-sided war. Iraq was a naked imperialist conquest, followed by an occupation.
BTW, Bush likes to talk about how we’re spreading Democracy throughout the world. But have you taken a look at our main allies in Bush’s Favorites?
*Pakistan
*Egypt
*Russia
*Iraq
These are mostly fake democracies: They have the trappings of democracy, without much of the substance. Except for Iraq, they’re all essentially dictatorships.
Bob in HI
There’s only one thing that impacts me more than mentioning Hillary and Obama. That’s showing me pictures of them.
This “domino theory” of Iraq as a failed state is also proven by history to be an imaginary bogeyman. it’s what drew us into the Vietnam War, where we were defeated. When the British were driven from Iraq it didn’t collapse. Somalia has been without a functioning government for over a decade, there’s no wave of evil moving through Africa (not any worse than there always is, sadly).
I’d say the motivations, whether vocalized or not, for thinking we need to “protect” Iraq and the region is all for the oil, primarily Saudi Arabia. How nice we’re providing the army for the filthy rich Saudi royal family. It’s a short-sighted lack of imagination by these candidates to desperately cling to the status quo even after Bush and the neocons destroyed the region.
Bob Schacht @ 25
and then there are the bush family’s BFFs the Saudis, who are an unabashed dictatorship.
Ask yourself. Who’s really spliting the Democratic Party. Is it Dodd, Biden, Richardson, Kucinich or a couple of others? Or is it Obama and Hillary?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 12
Big everthing influences the DLC. That’s why the netroots are in conflict with the DLC. The DLC was formed before Howard Dean showed that you could raise significant funding from the grassroots. The DLC was founded on the proposition that you could live on Big Money without being beholden to it. Fat Chance.
Bob in HI
Steve @ 23
Withdrawal to Secure Positions Under Enemy Fire. For thirteen wonderful months!
What’s behind door number 2, bob? I don’t think I like door number 1.
Gore.
oddmommy @ 28
a Theocratic Dictatorship, please note. Just not Judeo Christian.
All well and good, Swopa. And thanks for rounding all that up.
But let’s ask a few questions about “residual”, shall we?
Will the residue be staying in any of the permanent bases, or will they be in Kuwait and the (mostly) Kurdish north? Because, they can just as easily intimidate (and that IS what we’re talking about) Iran or Syria or Turkey from there, as they could from the Fort Apache-cum-Dien-Bien-Phu’s.
In fact, they could probably do a lot of it, from the carriers.
Plus, it’s going to take a lot of “residue” to keep the green zone functioning as the “seat of government” for the Iraqi parliament, and as the world’s largest CIA station.
Bob Schacht @ 31
Good. ;0)
puppethead @ 15
My guess is that everyone knows that the residual force, fortified embassy and bases is bullshit. We are loosing militarily now, even with reinforcements, a residual force of 50k will be creamed without using air cover. The problem is that the American public has been feed propaganda for so long that they are not ready for reality. Right now, a candidate who tells the truth can’t be elected. Hopefully that will change; but change will be driven by increasing US dead.
The parallel to Korea might be legitimate, if all you are talking about is the presence of US troops in a foreign country over a period of decades. When one considers the mission of the US forces in Korea, however, the analogy breaks down.
Fast.
In Korea, the US forces stand on a border with a friendly host nation to the south and a hostile nation to the north. Their mission is deterrence: if the North tries to threaten the South militarily, they know they have to threaten the much larger and more powerful US as well.
In Iraq, on the other hand, the US forces are in the middle of neutral-to-hostile territory. Even if their mission were to become that “trip wire” mentioned in the post above, they would still have to be guarding their flanks and rear.
At the DMZ in Korea, the only direction the US forces need to worry about watching is North. If the US forces in Iraq were to try looking only toward Iran, they’ll end up dead.
Fast.
Politicians: make your case for or against keeping troops in Iraq based on their mission, not on misconstrued historical analogies.
this is a worthwhile thing to do… but, it can’t be us. we have lost all legitimacy to act in the region. no one will believe we’re not there for our own purposes to control the oil.
maybe we could contribute in some other way… but it can’t be our mission and it can’t be directed/controlled by us.
that the majority of our party pols (contrary to the people) don’t get this, and instead hang on to their imperial ambitions is profoundly wrong.
The Democratic Party is trying to put me into a straight jacket. What’s next. Thorazine?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 33
I can’t heeeeeaaaaaar you.
This is important because the “interests in the region” always come back to oil. My question is this: given the diminishing production of the major Saudi oil fields, is it a feasible question to ask whether continued US occupation of Iraq is in essence a “service” to the Saudi royal family so that they are in position to grab Iraq oil by some means (war, terrorism, bribes, purchases and corporate deals - oh and officially - diplomacy)?
How do the people get the elected representatives in the legislative branch to do the will of the people?
What exactly would a residual force do then that 160,000 troops are not able to do now?
I can not bring myself to vote for another individual who will not promise to leave Iraq completely. Richardson and Kuchinich are the only two who’ve made that clear at this point.
Steve @ 23
Whose best estimate? Has the Pentagon even tried to plan an end to this occupation? Does any one know?
I’ll offer some random thoughts here.
1. If we vacate ground forces, remember, we still own the air. This means:
a. if Iran masses at the Iraq border, we will annihilate their forces swiftly.
b. same can be said of the Saudis, if they try to invade….same as well for Turkey.
2. We’ll probably need some type of garrison for the embassy, but a small one.
3. Al queda won’t be able to turn Iraq into a huge training facility. Remember, we’ll still own the air. Training camps will be spotted, and creamed.
4. Al queda WILL be present, to some extent, in Iraq. The question would be what danger do they pose to USA? In my opinion….little.
5. Iraq will become a bloodbath….what’s new?
6. If we must have a base, I’d suggest one up in Kurd-land. It’s relatively peaceful up there, and we can also keep a sharp eye on the Kurd-Turkey border mischief.
7. And, the political angle: in this case, the American political angle. Bear in mind, for better or worse, the Israelis freak over Iraq. And so the Israelis send forth their minions (can you spell “Lieberman”?) to urge us all, including various presidential candidates, to STAY in Iraq. Iraq maybe poses a security threat to Israel. But I have my doubts as to whether even a chaotic Iraq threatens USA national security.
How any, or all of the above fits in with the Swopa article I’ll leave up to others.
Ghostman
Alfred Kelgarries @ 32
I think the thing we have to get used to is that there will be no good ending to this mess. What’s behind door number 2 is just as bad as what’s beyond door number 1, only different.
The Republican talking point is to build up just how horrible things would be if we “cut and run.” This is just exactly what the proponents of War in Vietnam said. Remember the “Domino theory”? Well, it didn’t happen. We must constantly shoot down the Middle Eastern domino theories as nothing more than wild speculation.
This has been a slow-motion train wreck that has been unfolding for about 3 years. It began when the UN decided to pull its mission out of Baghdad for security reasons (and it started then because of prior idiotic decisions). But most people haven’t paid much attention to the inevitable train wreck because (a) BushCo did everything they could to hide it from view, and (b) BushCo kept saying, “Look! Over there! Shiny Object! Isn’t that shiny object interesting!!!” …and the MSM has compliantly been herded, hither and thither, ignoring the impending disaster.
I think that one of the reasons that there is so much public support now for getting out of Iraq ASAP is that the public realizes, at least unconsciously, that we just need to cut our losses and get out.
And in the background you can hear the Bush spin doctors trying to dumb down what “win” means.
Bob in HI
whatever happened to rallying around a standard-bearer? lead, please, Dems or get the F*CK out of the way.
Can someone set me straight? How come we pulled out of Vietnam just fine, but the military can’t figure out how to pull out of Iraq? And not incidentally, I’ve heard the Iraq and Nam situations are not comparable bit.
Albatross @ 7
Amen. And I’ll raise you a Holy Ghost.
We leave when the oil runs out.
TiredFed @ 47
;0)
Even if they try to pull out of Baghdad, where are they going to go, Kuwait?
It would take some serious carpet bombing just for them to get back to the airport.
Steve G had a good post on this a while back, our people are FUBAR wrt moving in and out and on top of that, they recently bombed more bridges, effectively cutting them off.
It is going to be very, very ugly.
I am a total peacenik and it is for this reason that I would support such an action. There may be things I do not know or understand about our presence in kosovo but it seems that B.C did a pretty good job of helping and not making us the enemy or the center of attention. If that doesn’t work to save lives, then we must leave.
punaise @ 41
Say it Loud and Say it Proud
punaise @ 41
;0)
SeamusD @ 44
I think I first saw a similar number posted by Gilliard. I heard the thirteen month from Tom Ricks on NPR a few days ago. That number was based on the number of convoys per day that could move all of the stuff and people, under ideal conditions.
SeamusD @ 42
I don’t see evidence of any such planning. The mega-embassy and the mega-bases are intended to be survivable enclaves where we bivouac, supplied by road if possible and by air if not. We keep from 40K to 80K troops in the enclaves, with basic firepower, artillery, humvees, small tank detachments, and of course helos and warthogs and other aircraft. We position the heavy armor in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia along with rotating deployments of NG (all the forces in Iraq proper will be full time servicepoeple, requiring either major enlistment incentives or some form of draft.) The northern base is to prevent Turkey from getting frisky with the Kurds, the southern bases do the same for Iran, and the Baghdad Embassy and last base do the same for SA if anything goes wrong. Then we let the shia more or less exterminate the sunni, and they take over BD and southern iraq, the kurds get the north. SA is allowed to annex most of Anbar and whatever else it needs to provide border security for its territory. Eventually Chalabi can emerge from the shadows and replace saddam as a “benevolent dictator” backed by our armed forces. Oil begins to flow again, with the appropriate Production Sharing Agreements in place with the Big 5. QED.
Now let’s watch and see how close my prediction is to what happens…
punaise @ 40
Why is it that when I read that, it always sounds like Tim Duncan of the San Antonio Spurs in an ad from a year ago? I can’t even remember what the ad was about, but the ad plotline had something to do with Duncan’s contract renewal (but that’s not what the ad was supposed to be “about”. I don’t remember what product we were supposed to buy.) Another part of that ad featured Duncan with his hands over his ears, saying “La-la-la-la” over and over.
Bob in HI
Nader says on Hardball about Bloomberg, “more voices, more choices”. How do I argue w/that?
TiredFed @ 46
What TiredFed said.
the thing i find so distressing is that i want to DO something about ending the iraq occupation and preventing an attack on iran.
… and i’d prefer to act via electoral politics. but, right now i don’t see how.
last year there was lamont’s campaign.
where to put my energy now? back to the street?
Albatross @ 7
Nice shot! All net. A three pointer and from way behind the line.
Out now. Out completely. No compromise. No bullshit. That, too, is why I voted Democrat in 2006. That’s why I spent a couple thousand dollars on candidates suggested by this site, Atrios and others. Right now, my checkbook is closed and I have nothing but disgust for the whole thing.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 55
Its called “Split The Vote”. The Rethugs are toast (even Novakula writes about it) so the only way they can win is to siphon off a whole lotta people like yourself and myself who are just disgusted at the current dem crop of candidates. Problem it, all it does is give the Electoral votes to the rethugs.
What we need is for bloomberg to be the DEM nominee. That would shake things up nicely!
Ian @ 61
Word, word, and WORD!
Alfred Kelgarries @ 55
I agree that that is the real plan and it will work as well as it did for the French in Indochina.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 47
Because we did NOT pull out of Vietnam just fine. Don’t you remember the footage of helicopters over the US embassy in Saigon, with people hanging on for dear life so as not to get left behind? That was a humiliating image, and one that Al Qaeda is eagerly hoping to repeat.
Of course, it turned out that the Domino Theory was bogus, so the ending wasn’t as bad as feared, but the “evacuation” of South Vietnam was nothing short of humiliating. And no General wants that to happen on his watch.
Bob in HI
[dear mods/techs - what ever you just did, thank you… refresh comments and preview comments is now working without hanging for me.]
Elliott @ 51
GORE!
there.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 63
That’s interesting. But I am a Gore fan. Perhaps Gore/Bloomberg?
OK, I see I have to do some major correcting here.
Swopa, things do not seep into Cheney’s brain. They seep out of it.
On a more serious note, and with a regard to force withdrawal, this should be coordinated with the Iraqi government. Doesn’t mean it will happen but the effort should be made to reduce power vacuums. Whatever happens some American forces will and should remain in the Gulf area (although not necessarily in Iraq). This would include countries like Bahrain, Qatar, the UAE, and Oman where we already have agreements of various kinds. American special forces probably could operate out of Jordan, and some limited cooperation with Saudi Arabia is also possible.
Within Iraq, things are very dicey. It all depends on what the mission is.
Training is something of a joke, but if it were to be done, it could be done from bases in the relatively safe Kurdistan or camps near Kuwait.
Placing limits on the civil war? Again very hard to do, especially because the central government would have to give permission and it might be deeply involved in the killing.
Going after al Qaeda? Possible but difficult. It could be done out country from Jordan or Kuwait with special forces or in country from Kurdistan or possibly the South. The trick would be to work out an agreement with the central government on strikes and that might be really, really difficult.
There are lots and lots of layers to this problem. The policy has failed. Bush’s war has failed. What is left is to leave. There are adult ways of doing this and dealing with whatever nasty situations develop. It won’t be pretty but it is in our nation’s interests.
Is anyone else having problems today with wordpress? i.e. am writing this comment refresh has disappeared. Oh and one last thing
ReElect President Al Gore in 2008. Accept no substitute. ;~)
Apart from the blood and horror, the IEDs and suicide bombers, the blown-up bridges and attacks on the green zone, the treatment of Iraqis in Abu Garaib and in their own homes, you know what I think would be almost as damaging for our troops? The miserable and unending summer heat they have to endure in their uniforms, body armor and boots while carrying their equipment and rifles. I cannot imagine spending even one day in their situation.
Swopa does point out the disappointing fact that all three frontrunners are not actually anti occupation candidates.. And every time I let that sink in, its as if I have been treated with a defibrillator, by my own party.
Bob Schacht @ 66
I have forgotten nothing about Vietnam. Especially my buddies who did not return.
cathy @ 20
If my memory serves me correctly, I recall seeing that the cost of just the U.S. Embassy in Iraq would cost $1.2 billion per year.
With that kind of money in hand, we could bankroll Albatross, Webb, or Richardson as the FDL candidate.
Bustednuckles @ 49
Busted,
I remember that post of Steve’s. I wish everyone in the country could read that so people will get that this is urgent. As in, really really time-sensitive ASAP.
That’s why I’ve been so adamant about this to my rightwing acquaintances.
They have no family or friends going over there, and it’s not urgent to them.
Steve @ 62
no! it WILL work. that is the serious problem here. Indochina didn’t work because of many reasons, but the largets was the lack of effective air power. We no longer have that problem. And also, please note we now have some badass directed energy weapons of all sorts. they are funded and available in small numbers but will ramp up once the bivouacing has begun.
And there is increasing technology to take out mortar rounds mid flight and MANPADS from both aircraft and ground stations mid flight. If there is no patrolling IEDS are worthless. A grounda assault over mined borders covered from both non-lethal and lethal weapons turrets? I don’t think so.
That’s why I emphasized air supply. Once you get the THEL and other systems in to take out the MANPADS you can supply by air easily from Kuwait or even SA or Incirlik In Turkey. We could be in iraq a LONG LONG TIME in strictly military terms, unfortunately.
However, casualties will drop very very sharply once this happens. Costs will reduce some, and may be offset by payments from the Iraqi oil. But the deal-breaker is the castkets. When the jets stop flying home every week with about 40 to 80 caskets, calls to get the troops out will also drop, except for die hards liks us. Unfortunately, our political power may be limited.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 66
DING DING DING DING DING!
Get out of Iraq now. What’s the alternative? To stay there?
Hugh @ 68
i fear that an “adult” version of withdrawal will be as elusive as the “adult” version of the occupation.
sorry, that was really out of character for me. I guess I’m just getting impatient. btw, accept no substitutes.
another example of how hanging out at FDL may ultimately lead to my professional demise: I’ve taken to responding to client emails with quick, pithy, snappy, blog-comment-style missives. not sure they all appreciate the scintillating wit expressed therein.
Nader might stay out if Gore runs.
Run, Al, Run!!!!
GORE
GORE
GORE
WE NEED YOU NOW!!!
punaise @ 82
that’s funny
“it would take, best estimate, thirteen months to extract people and equipment.”
Bullshit. It’d take one month. Destroy the equipment and pull out the troops.
Where do you get these numbers? For people who don’t want to pull out?
Alfred Kelgarries @ 75
and when the next 911 happens, will we understand it as retribution for our continued presence/occupation?
there are likely to be costs (of the casket variety) - it’s just that we won’t understand why… again.
swopa, a VERY nice read..I’d like to comment on this;
you know how nicely it would serve ALL democrats and totally democralize the republicans runnig for president?
when they say we need to get out, tag this friggin war on those idiots…EVERY time
this is not “the war in Iraq”, this is “the republican war”, it’s “the corporatists war”, it’s the “war profiteers war”
they need to create the proper vernacular and pound away with it, time and time again and again…things like
“bush’s depravity”
“the diversion from the war against terrorism”
“the presidents malicous obsession which has made the fight against terrorism almost impossible to win”
“the maniacle plans of a sick fraternity to steal the treasure of Americans and the middle east”
I want to tag every referance to the war with something that describes WHO is responsible and the damage it’s done to this country
Eureka Springs @ 73
For me, not a lot different than realizing that my party’s Senators won’t back the Democratic primary winner in a North Eastern state.
punaise @ 82
That’s a scream. ;0)
Why is it that t