Remember when George W. Bush and his minions boasted that Saddam's 'rape rooms' were shut down?
As Christy has already pointed out, they weren't shut down, they just changed hands.
Here's some testimony about what US uniformed military personnel were doing to Iraqis at Abu Ghraib back in 2003 (for photos that back up a good bit of it, go here and here). This will be old news to those of you who've been following Seymour Hersh's stories over the past few years in The New Yorker, but I think in light of Hersh's latest story, we could do with a little reminder:
TRANSLATION OF STATEMENT PROVIDED BY Kasim Mehaddi HILAS, Detainee #151108, 1300/18 JAN 04:"In the name of God, I swear to God that everything I witnessed everything I am talking about. I am not saying this to gain any material thing, and I was not pressured to do this by any forces. First, I am going to talk only about what happened to me in Abu Ghraib Jail. I will not talk about what happened when I was in jail before, because they did not ask me about that, but it was very bad.
1. They stripped me of all my clothes, even my underwear. They gave me woman's underwear, that was rose color with flowers in it and they put the bag over my face. One of them whispered in my ear, "today I am going to fuck you", and he said this in Arabic. Whoever was with me experienced the same thing. That's what the American soldiers did, and they had a translator with them, named Abu Hamid and a female soldier, who's skin was olive colored and this was on October 3 or 4, 2003 around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. When they took me to the cell, the translator Abu Hamid came with an American soldier and his rank was sergeant (I believe). And he called told me "faggot" because I was wearing the woman's underwear, and my answer was "no". Then he told me "why are you wearing this underwear", then I told them "because you make me wear it". The transfer from Camp B to the Isolation was full of beatings, but the bags were over our heads, so we couldn't see their faces. And they forced me to wear this underwear all the time, for 51 days. And most of the days I was wearing nothing else.
2. I faced more harsh punishment from Grainer. He cuffed my hands with irons behind my back to the metal of the the window, to the point my feet were off the ground and I was hanging there, for about 5 hours just because I asked about the time, because I wanted to pray. [PW notes: Observant Muslims pray several times a day, facing Mecca.] And then they took all my clothes and he took the female underwear and he put it over my head. After he released me from the window, he tied me to my bed until before dawn. He took me to the shower room. After he took me to the shower room, he brought me to my room again. He prohibited me from eating food that night, even though I was fasting that day. [PW notes: During the holy month of Ramadan, Muslims fast during the daylight hours and eat only at night.] Grainer and the other two soldiers were taking pictures of every thing they did to me. I don't know if they took a picture of me because they beat me so bad I lost consciousness after an hour or so.
3. They didn't give us food for a whole day and a night, while we were fasting for Ramadan. And the food was only one package of emergency food.
Now I am talking about what I saw:
1. They brought three prisoners completely naked and they tied them together with cuffs and they stuck one to another. I saw the American soldiers hitting them with a football and they were taking pictures. I saw Grainer punching one of the prisoners right in his face very hard when he refused to take off his underwear and I heard them begging for help. And also the American soldiers to do like homosexuals (fucking). And there was one of the American soldiers they called Sergeant (black skin) there was 7 to 8 soldiers there also. Also female soldiers were taking pictures and that was in the first day of Ramadan. And they repeated the same thing the second day of Ramadan. And they were ordering them to crawl together while they were cuffed together naked.
2. I saw [name redacted] fucking a kid, his age would be about 15-18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard the screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn't covered and I saw [name redacted], who was wearing the military uniform putting his dick in the little kid's ass. I couldn't see the face of the kid because his face wasn't in front of the door. And the female soldier was taking pictures. [Name redacted], I think he is [ethnicity/nationality redacted] because of his accent, and he was not skinny or short, and he acted like a homosexual (gay). And that was in cell #23 as best as I remember.
3. In the cell that is almost under it, on the North side, and I was right across from it on the other side. They put the sheets again on the doors. Grainer and his helper they cuffed one prisoner in Room #1, named [name redacted], he was Iraqi citizen. They tied him to the bed and they were inserted the phosphoric light in his ass and he was yelling for God's help. [Name redacted] used to get hit and punished a lot because I heard him screaming and they prohibited us from standing near the door when they do it. That was Ramadan, around 12 midnight approximately when I saw them putting the stick in his ass. The female soldier was taking pictures.
4. I saw more than once men standing on a water bucket that was upside down and they were totally naked. And carrying chairs over their heads standing under the fan of the hallway behind the wooden partition and also in the shower.
Not one night for all the time I was I there passed without me seeing, hearing or feeling what was happening to me
And I am repeating the oath/I swear on Allah almighty on the truth of what I said. Allah is my witness."
TRANSLATED BY:
VERIFIED BY:
[signature][signature]
Mr. Johnson ISHOMr. Abdelilah ALAZADI
Translator, Category IITranslator, Category IITitan Corporation
Titan CorporationAssigned to:
Prisoner Interview/Interrogation Team (PIT)(CID)(FWD)
10th Military Police Battalion (CID)(ABN)(FWD)
3rd Military Police Group (CID), USACIDC
Abu Ghraib Prison Complex (ABPC)
Abu Ghraib, Iraq APO AE 09335
And this wasn't just done by a few "bad apples", as Bush's Pentagon people proclaimed, but was tolerated and sanctioned and directed at the highest levels of the military:
Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba said that he felt mocked and shunned by top Pentagon officials, including then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, after filing an exhaustive report on the now-notorious Abu Ghraib abuse that sparked international outrage and led to an overhaul of the U.S. interrogation and detention policies. Taguba's report examining the 800th Military Police Brigade put in plain terms what had been documented in shocking photographs.In interviews with New Yorker reporter Seymour M. Hersh, Taguba said that he was ordered to limit his investigation to low-ranking soldiers who were photographed with the detainees and the soldiers' unit, but that it was always his sense that the abuse was ordered at higher levels. Taguba was quoted as saying that he thinks top commanders in Iraq had extensive knowledge of the aggressive interrogation techniques that mirrored those used on high-value detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and that the military police "were literally being exploited by the military interrogators."
Taguba also said that Rumsfeld misled Congress when he testified in May 2004 about the abuse investigation, minimizing how much he knew about the incidents. Taguba said that he met with Rumsfeld and top aides the day before the testimony.
To emphasize the point, here's a snippet from Hersh's article:
"From what I knew, troops just don't take it upon themselves to initiate what they did without any form of knowledge of the higher-ups," Taguba told me. His orders were clear, however: he was to investigate only the military police at Abu Ghraib, and not those above them in the chain of command. "These M.P. troops were not that creative," he said. "Somebody was giving them guidance, but I was legally prevented from further investigation into higher authority. I was limited to a box."
Oh, yes: And most of the folks Bush's buddies brought in to run the Pentagon are nice good hyper-moral Evangelical Christians, just like Monica Goodling and her friends over in the Bush Justice Department. Wonderful.
Oh, but surely the prisoners that got this treatment were the lowest of the low, right? This wasn't done to innocent people, right? Don't be so sure about that: At the time that the US torturers were having a ball raping and beating people and taking pictures of it all, it turns out that between 70% to 90% of all the prisoners in Iraq were arrested 'by mistake'. And guess what? Torture is not only useless as an interrogation tool, it produces bogus information as its victims wind up saying whatever they think the torturers want to hear. So there isn't even a utilitarian justification for this. Unless scaring and angering the people whose 'hearts and minds' you're trying to win is your goal -- then it works wonderfully, as a tool for creating enemies.
As for the photograph from Abu Ghraib that graces this post of mine: That's about the most mild image I could find that still brought home the truth of what Taguba and Hersh are talking about. Most of the others are worse. Much, much, much worse.
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
zed!
w00t!
Thanks PW
And now, can I just take a shower and try to wash this stuff off? Who are these people?
I am, uncharacteristally, without words.
All of us are our troops.. Silence equals complicity… and America has been far to silent.
I keep asking myself..did Bush have to order this or at least sign some sort of approval or was it only Rummy?
No matter how many times I read about this, no matter how many times I see pictures - it absolutely disgusts me.
America is supposed to be a beacon of liberty for all those oppressed people in the world. Sometimes I have a hard time accepting the fact that this country is now the “bad guys” - well, the government, that’s for sure.
Torture, rape, and the like, is totally repugnant to the ideals of a free society. It’s morally wrong, and there’s nothing in the constitution that allows these people to do this.
period.
Some follow up reading if anyone’s interested:
“Should the U.S. Military be Allowed to use Torture?”
http://www.populistamerica.com.....se_torture
May the good Dog/Goddess/Gaia/(insert name of supreme being of choice here) give these people who perpetrated these acts in the name of my country their just treatment for their actions.
I can only read a little bit before my brain short circuits.
I constantly question myself: at what point do I resist all of this? I work everyday and pay taxes for this behavior to be done in my name. What shocking images or stories will it take for me to quit my job and stop paying taxes?
Mutant Poodle @ 4
——————————-
These people are
George W Bush
Dick Cheney
Condeleeza Rice
Donal Rumsfeld
Orchestrated by Karl”miss Piggy” Rove
i remember back in dec 2000, i was traveling and i woke up and heard the local news and got word of the elections and supreme court decision back home, and i thought, “holy shit, we just screwed our country”… i had no idea how much of a ridiculous understatement that was…
i remember all the interviews of people after 9/11 and a common question was “why do THEY hate us?”.. i guess if you’re ill informed of the world, you can ask that question… except now its multiplied ad infinitum…
we live in a much different world, much more dangerous world, and not because of 9/11, but because of g.w… unfortunately, there’s no rewind, and no matter who next buys their way into office, that’s a done deal.
amy goodman interviewed sy hersh for democracy now! today.
In Bushworld, the more enemies the better. Infinite enemies=infinite war=infinite profits for BushCo. It’s as simple as W.
Here is what is really striking me…(smacks forehead, ouch)
There….is….not…one….reference…to…any…interrogation…questions…being …asked…anywhere…in…this…testimony.
This was not about gaining intelligence. This must have been about setting an example…go tell your friends, if you survive, how badass the U.S. is. This is an act of dominance, shock and awe. It goes along perfectly with the M.O. of the Neocons.
High Crimes and Misdemeanors. I’m sick.
Those tapes need to be released. Somebody needs to leak ‘em.
These techniques come from the North Koreans. They became part of Navy Seal training, where they were exposed to these techniques in order to be better able to resist them.
It is very important to realize that these techniques were not used by the N Koreans or the Vietnamese (or the Soviets or the Spanish Inquisition) in order to elicit accurate information. They were used to force people to make false confessions.
This is not, and never has been, about intelligence. These techniques, especially when they are essentially randomly applied, are intended to instill terror into the populace. They are not intended to extract accurate information, as anything you read by interrogators will tell you.
Saying “take the gloves off” is not a statement that means “get accurate information.” It’s a statement that means “get me something I can use.”
The criminality of these people doesn’t really beggar the imagination. The 20th century was a very rough time in this regard. But I never thought it could happen here. And to see the media, the democrats and the courts wringing their hankies while these thugs destroy my birthright has me pretty frickin’ angry.
Don’t ask, don’t tell.
Don’t ask (yourself what you are doing if you are ordered to torture), Don’t tell (Rumsfeld in a way that makes it hard for him to deny it).
Not really OT but more good lord save us. Andrew Sullivan from HuffPost: Scalia uses Jack Bauer to explain constitutional efforts “Jack Bauer saved LA…”
Phoenix Woman:
You say:
“And guess what? Torture is not only useless as an interrogation tool, it produces bogus information as its victims wind up saying whatever they think the torturers want to hear.”
I’m skeptical of this assertion, though if you point me to empirical studies — if such things exist — I’m all ears. What’s indisputable, however, is that torture has been historically used to elicit false confessions, and our current rulers seem to feel they have plenty of incentives to seek them, too.
LS (13) pegs it. This was not interrogation. This was criminal abuse, justified by an illegal war.
dakine01 (17) — Oh, I wish Scalia would say things like that just a couple more times. Then I’d say we have solid grounds for impeachment because Scalia cannot separate fantasy from reality.
brendan @ 18
Aren’t you agreeing with PW? Sounds like the same difference to me.
dannyM @ 8
I heard Chris Hedges (author of American Fascists) say he was going to stop paying taxes - I wonder how that’s going.
It is a sad simply fact that our current rulers relish the torture being carried out in the name of the citizens of this country. There is no other explanation for it.
LS @ 3
Thank you for being willing to read it.
LS @ 13
Of course. That’s the only reason to torture people. You don’t get any useful information out of anyone by torturing them.
Impeach now. And send the lot of them, including those who have left office already, to the Hague.
They’ve forfeited any claim to being law-abiding citizens; now they can forfeit their citizenships. (And their ill-gotten fortunes: give the money to those they’ve injured.)
LS @ 20
And if Brendan clicks on the link, there’s the evidence he seeks.
alan shore on Gitmo:
“Brilliant!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEI8u0GlVHk
Guess there won’t be any substantial “investigations” about this shit- it would bring the house down in Iraq if the Iraqis ever get the complete truth- including who ORDERED this shit.
Clusterfuck has been a teflon president.
It’s also pretty sick how they’ve gone after Taguba. They retired him! For doing what he was ordered to do! wtf is that?
And the other sickening thing about this torture is that they spun it in the press so that a lot of people wanted it to go on. Americans were cheering for this stuff because they were told it made them safer and they thought it was tough. If you opposed torture, you were weak.
Michael Boldin @ 6
You know a similar line of questioning was going on on the Washington Journal this morning.
What blows my mind is that we are even discussing the “question of torture” - why are we even having a discussion about whether it should be used or how much abuse equals torture, how much torture is too much, etc.
It’s a staggering indictment of what we’ve become thanks to the creature currently inhabiting the office of the president of the united states and the countless fools, both prominent and pedestrian, who followed his lead and fell headlong into war fever.
Franco @ 9
“These people” do this in the name of protecting me, my family, and my country. But there are no words to express my shame in being “protected” in this way-through humiliation, torture, rape.
Our government has used these techniques with impunity against our supposed enemies. What is to stop them from using it on us, the citizens who oppose this government? For it is down this road that fascist governments seek to consolidate and enforce their power. And they do it in the name of protecting us from some unseen, but horrible, enemy. But is there anyone who doubts that the Bush government is intent on establishing a fascist dictatorship? Rove’s permanent Republican majority is simply a polite way of saying dictatorship.
That is the true horror of “these people”-that they would not hesitate to torture, humiliate, and fuck their own citizens.
Phoenix Woman @ 23
Maybe you should send this directly to Pelosi and Reid etal. This must be dealt with. No more Mr. and Mrs. Niceguy. Anyone with the power to stop these people, but who allows them to remain in power, condones this behavior and is on some level complicit. This administration needs to be appropriately charged to the highest degree of the law. Start with Gonzo and work our way up. This is not politics, this is not American.
Mandrake @ 21
again, I give you alan shore:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osl2sIerAbk
Leahy, Waxman, Conyers. Get Taguba in for an “interview” ASAP. Then throw the book at the lot of them. Throw 10 books at them.
Great post, PW. How shameful.
If you’re looking for some images, I think Fernando Botero’s art is quite powerful.
We need to keep this torture topic up front and center, until we see them held to account for this. If some politician starts with the “let bygones be bygones…thingy, I’m gonna blow a gasket”. I’m serious.
selise @ 11
Selise — were you able to track down a feed for the confirmation hearing on the CIA counsel?
LS @ 13
Yup. Remember, these are the people who say things like this:
There has got to be some kind of legal followup on this. The criminal investigations have to be re-opened, and the already convicted underlings have to be persuaded to talk. I have no idea who makes investigation/prosecutory decisions in the armed forces, but this whole thing stinks cover-up to high heaven.
And wasn’t Gen. Janice Karpinsky making similar allegations when she was speakng out?
They go after our citizens. They really are living up to Prescott Bush’s allies. First they start with the smaller stuff, then they up the ante. This link is to retaliation of an American soldier/citizen:
http://www.alternet.org/story/50191/
There was a “regime change” in Iraq.
It plainly was not for the better too.
Donald Rumsfeld. American War Criminal.
When does his ordeal begin?
These photos leave one numb.
American Empire. Here is what it looks like to the Iraqis in the millions for certain.
That new “citadel embassy” the Americans plan on holing up in now being completed in Baghdad?
It surely will be the focal point of much Iraqi resentment,hatred and desire to undo.
These photos are what we are seeing. How much as been done otherwise in Iraq under American control or influence? By official American units? By the American mercenaries?
G.W.Bush,Dick Cheney and the gang of warmongers they run with should all have to be in one room together and view these terrible photos together.
Then be asked how they would feel about having this stuff done to them or their family members?
The Bush/Cheney war gangsters should all have to in public formally apologise to the Iraqi nation for this deplorable,reprehensible conduct.
Americans should pay war reparations for this.
Americans should leave Iraq. We have done no good there. Desecrated our own flag while at it.
Then ongoing,deep and wide investigations started to excavate the real chain of decision making that led to this barbaric conduct.
I hope the G.W.Bush “presidential library” has a prominent display of these photos.
They surely will belong on display there.
These Bush people are absolutely despicable. I don’t know what else to say. They almost make me ashamed to call America home.
And people are even considering Ghouliani????
Ghouliani Time:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/14/police.torture/
I cannot believe that the military of the United States of America would engage in this type of barbaric behavior. To this very day, I feel a burning shame. I want the people high in the chain of command who are responsible for this in prison for the rest of their lives.
scarecrow @ 37
this is what i learned from my phone calls this morning:
- senate intelligence committee doesn’t do feeds.
- capitolhearings wasn’t going to do the audio (they chose the senate foreign relations committee hearing instead)
- cspan was scheduled to do video of the hearing, but not for live broadcast… the plan is to show it on c-span tv later, but the schedule had not been set when i called this morning. i’m going to wait until after 4pm this afternoon and call back to see if there is a schedule yet.
- once c-span has shown their video on tv, it will be placed in their online video archive.
I continue to be stunned by this torture and rape. It appears that these soldiers - or whatever they were - did enjoy this and seemed to not be asking for information at all. I go all the way back to the Roosevelt administration and I have never seen anything like this. My heart hurts for my country and it sickens me that this is being done in my name by people I detest. WE MUST STOP IT NOW!
LS @ 20
Of course I’m agreeing. I’m just saying there are two separate arguments, one of which seems stronger but isn’t often addressed in what little public debate there is about this torture.
I sent the link for this to the Speaker’s e-mail, along with some comments (including asking for impeachment back on the table).
P J Evans @ 48
Do you have to be from CA to send it there?
brendan (18) — Study says torture doesn’t work
Granted, this study applied game theory to obtain its outcome. But if humans have been challenged to obtain empirical evidence in the two-thousand plus years they have been using torture to obtain intelligence, does this not suggest that torture itself is so iffy that it is not worth the downside?
If we have to even consider applying a moral question as to whether it is effective and whether the price is too high, is this not enough of an indicator of torture’s inappropriateness for the stated purpose of intelligence gathering?
Another point that bothers me in the entire argument for/against torture is that the subjects are objectified, dehumanized even in the course of discussing torture’s effectiveness. We don’t talk about their physical pain, their mental anguish, permanent or temporary damage to the physique and psyche, to the family and community of the tortured.
Agh. It’s just plain wrong. No studies needed.
LS @ 36
We have to or this behavior will escalate to be considered the norm. Just like those who reply to surveillance of phone calls and internet communications with “it’s ok, I have nothing to hide.”
As I said above, right now we are all the torturers… soon we will all be Jose Padilla.. if indeed we are not already.
So much of this behavior, I think, goes back to the total destruction of critical thinking that has been one goal of the right wing. Our public schools have been systematically purged of Social Studies, History, Creative Writing, Languages, Art, Music and anything else that might help kids to think outside the box created for them. This is how they get their Grainer’s, and England’s. And I believe that this is no accident. Dumbing down schools yields automatons, unable to sympathize with anyone who is different, and who make no waves. Good corporate slaves, who think unions are for weaklings and misfits who want to take their jobs away. Fox News-hounds who think that Bill-O is always right and that George W Bush is a hero. And that torturing Iraqi’s is their “Christian duty”. This is all part of their class war, producing a whole population of incurious worker-bees who won’t know, or care, that they are second-class citizens. Just look at the people who for the TSA, making life miserable for anyone who doesn’t own a private jet, and convincing all who visit this country that we don’t want them here.
Sorry, just had to get that out of my system. I get so angry it makes me physically sick.
Not if you go to the one for the Speaker www.speaker.gov/contact/ , not her congressional page. They ask for zip code, but I think it’s just to make sure you have one.
This all goes back to a president who is WAY over his head, intellectually, managerially, morally, and most importantly- spiritually. He’s out of his depth- he can’t think about details- so he just orders up the BIGGEST reaction he can think of.
Jesus Christ.
I’m so furious I don’t know what to say.
Furious.
This needs to be exposed and investigated till the cows come home. Then people need to be prosecuted for war crimes,LOTS of people,all the way to the top.
This is what my country has become,unspeakable.
AP:
WASHINGTON — The Army is considering whether it will have to extend the combat tours of troops in Iraq if President Bush opts to maintain the recent buildup of forces through spring 2008.
Woodhall Hollow @ 39
Yup, yup and yup.
P J Evans @ 53
If you need a zip code for Nancy P. just 94115.
When this subject is brought up to the torture supporters, they always counter with the, “Well, what if they have a nuclear bomb that they are going to detonate in your city tomorrow, don’t you want to get the information????” bulldooty. The thing is, this is about dominance. It is about terrorizing a nation into submission. The Shock and Awe booklet describes their agenda and M.O. If it works over there (which it isn’t, hence the resistence), they will use it here. They need to be stopped and arrested. Now. Before they bomb Iran. There is plenty of evidence out there of their heinous acts and cover-ups.
It must be pointed out that these people were not being interrogated, they were being dominated and tortured, period.
Iraq has been destroyed by these people. Cavelierly and intentionally. In my bones, I knew this would be the outcome of this war when I woke up one morning in April 2003 to the news that the Iraqi museum was being looted.
Everything that has either been done by US forces, or been “allowed” to occur by US forces seems to be part of a conscious strategy to break the will of the Iraqi people.
Sick, perverted, and criminal. And Evil, as in Hannah Arendt evil, in that it seems to feed on itself, for its own sake, without any rational rhyme or reason.
There is really no reasonable doubt that under Bush torture bacame a deliberate policy of the United States of America- there is a paper trail- a track record., The bastards each blessed the thing all the way up and down the ladder. They have no excuses.,
Did they order up rape? No- but they ordered up behaviors that made it clear that there were no more rules- which opened the cages of the beasts- and the rape followed as night follows day.
The Middle East is exploding.
WASHINGTON - President Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Tuesday sought to bolster Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, calling him a moderate voice and the only true leader of the Palestinian people.
“I’m going to make every possible effort to cooperate with him,” the prime minister said. Bush called Abbas “the president of all the Palestinians” and “a voice for moderation.”
Of course we have recently learned that everything Bush did- he did because he believed that it was in the best interests of the US of A.
Sadly- this might even be true.
rwcole @ 61
In other words, they ordered up rape, torture, death, destruction, ethnic cleansing and other assorted genocidal mayhems.
Anyone may contact Speaker Pelosi here..
http://www.speaker.gov/contact/
“Son, you got a panty on your head.”
No wonder these people hate us so much….
Woodhall Hollow @ 64
Death, destruction and ethnic cleansing also apply to NOLA.
Franco @ 9
——————————-
These people are
George W Bush
Dick Cheney
Condeleeza Rice
Donal Rumsfeld
Orchestrated by Karl”miss Piggy” Rove
You left out Gonzales & Yoo (and as much as I despise him, probably unfairly included Rove).
LS @ 59
To which I reply, If they have a nuclear weapon in my town that they are going to use tomorrow, somebody f*cked up their jobs a hundred different ways to Sunday LONG BEFORE that weapon ever arrived my town, and torture isn’t going to fix those f*ckups.
How freaking lame an argument that is. They need only look at the 9/11 timeline, at all the opportunities that we had to change the critical path…torturing the 20th hijacker was closing the barn door after the entire herd was auctioned off within the borders of a neighboring country and eaten for dinner.
Mary McCurnin @ 68
And by death, I meant murder, which applies to both Iraq and NOLA.
I just keep hearing those compassionate conservatives clapping & cheering when torture & Gitmo came up during the debates. Where is the social conscience of these people? Where are their spiritual leaders?
Gunga Djinn @ 69
Also Addington
and General Odierno
I read a few months ago the guy with the torture dog who was almost prosecuted at one point.. was at that time free of all charges and headed back to Iraq, with his dog.
We shouldn’t think this is not happening today.
Rayne @ 70
My response is that if they are so concerned about nuclear weapons, then something needs to be done about Pakistan, which has multiple weapons and is a time bomb of a disaster waiting to happen, and much more dangerous than any potential “dirty bomb” threat.
Rayne @ 70
Well said. I just fired off an email to Pelosi’s office, with a link to this post.
LS @ 59
Especially since, as I mentioned in the post, between 70 to 90% of the people in Iraqi prisons and jails at the time had been arrested “by mistake”.
The other thing the righties say when you attempt to talk about this stuff is “Oh, NOW you’ve done it! The Iraqis now know all about it, because YOU talked!” Which is utter bullshit, because the Iraqis know more about than we ever will — they hear about it from their jailed loved ones. No, the righties aren’t afraid of the Iraqis finding out; they’re afraid of Mr. and Mrs. America finding out.
We should find all of the Iraqi consulates and demonstrate our solidarity with their people and apologize to them for the immoral and horrid behavior of this country toward their citizens.
Israeli tanks enter Gaza
Wounded Palestinians remain inside the crossing point terminal at Erez [Reuters]
Israeli tanks have crossed into Gaza near a key crossing point where at least 500 Palestinians are trapped, trying to flee from the territory since Hamas took it over.
http://english.aljazeera.net/N.....B9A719.htm
Rayne @ 50
Believe me, I’m not in favor of torture, but let me explain why I’m seemingly quibbling. I bet most people who haven’t thought much about the question think “if someone tortured me, I wouldn’t be able to stand it and I’d tell the truth right away”, without entertaining the possibility the victim of torture might not know the “truth” or might even just be a victim of sadism or terror. I’ll warrant that the “ticking time bomb” scenario seems compelling to Americans (interestingly enough, John McCain uttered the best refutation of this stupid sophistry I’ve ever heard), and the “ineffectiveness” argument is just as uncompelling to them (as well as empirically debatable, probably). Personally, the far more compelling, and chilling, argument against it for me is the knowledge that the administration’s ends are evil — that they really are interested in false confession, and a bureaucracy of sadism and terror to rule Iraq. That’s all, I’m just trying to make the point that there are different arguments.
Let’s put some history on the events. I think the torture had two roots. The first was getting even for 911. Otherwise very sensible people I know thought we should invade Iraq ‘to show the Arabs we mean business’. I believe that this was also the view of Mr. Kissinger. Send that message down the food chain to the troops and you get abuse, because its the same message, just more personal. That explains at least in part their brutality.
What explains the opportunity to exercise that brutality on the scale it was (and probably still is) executed goes to the summer of 2003 when the ‘dead-enders’ were beginning to kill some of our troops and Saddam was still at large. We know from the reports of how they caught him that the US intelligence apparatus had constructed a huge ‘family tree’ linking people to other people who might be distantly linked to someone who might know someone who knew where Saddam was hiding. To get at these people they had to go through their families, and we know from the same reports that they humiliated and tortured these innocent people to get to the people who they thought had the information they wanted.
The torture was an information-gathering device, but it was via extortion. Very few people are prepared to see their family members rapped. The Nazi’s had this technique down to a “T”.
I had to force myself to read this post. I wish with all my heart and would be willing to do whatever it took to see the perpetrators in the Bush administration be sentenced to hanging by a War Crimes Tribunal for this.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 78
It is like watching your dog run across the street in traffic.
Woodhall Hollow @ 74
191 entries on “Pakistan ISI” in the 9/11 timeline. Even more than the Saudis at 156. You’d think DeadEye would catch a f*cking clue.
Mary McCurnin @ 77
Mary, I really like this idea.
And everything was going to be just fine once we brought Saddam down.
I dream a lot. I told M. de Plume this morning that one of my fervent dreams is to see a C-130 at Edwards Air Force Base on January 20, 2009, loaded with all the “leaders” and enablers of this regime, in chains, fly off to the Hague.
Eureka Springs @ 83
Do you think we could organize this in a week?
this should read “tolerated, sanctioned, condoned, and encouraged
it should also read;
“the president knew with precise detail what was happening to these children and he encouraged it”
and they should continue;
“whoever thinks this is a man of god needs to be disabused from that opinion”
and they need to point out the following;
this president is a direct descendant of Prescott bush, a strong supporter of Hitler and his tactics…this president follows in those footsteps”
you want to see the base call for impeachment, we do things like that
When the torture story originally broke, I thought to myself “this will lose the war for us”. Now I say to myself it DID lose the war for us.
I think it’s the single greatest factor responsible for creating & fueling the insurgency (along with our other degrading, humiliating and horrendous acts such as slaughter & rape of Iraqi civilians). And it’s the reason we will never win the trust & respect of Iraq. They will fight us for a thousand years before forgiving us for these inhuman crimes.
It also confirms my belief that George Bush is a fake Christian. No real believer would ever risk facing judgement day with baggage like this.
Having said that, I personally feel ashamed as an American every time I look at this story.
Channel 4 in Britain did a program on the
“enhanced interrogation”torture techniquesvideo here
Brendan @ 18 There are studies just use the google. If I can find them — there are military reports I’ve read, where they explain on how useless
“enhanced interrogation”torture is.Perris 87,
“this president is a direct descendant of Prescott bush, a strong supporter of Hitler and his tactics…this president follows in those footsteps”
Also, there is a connection with the Nazi regime by the Brown and Root people (ex-Halliburton subsidiary), I believe. They were connected with Prescott Bush in those days. I’d have to look it up again.