I'm loathe to take issue with Heather Havrilesky and Michael Berube and sound like a hack at the same time, but there is another factor to be taken into consideration when assessing the "did Tony die at the end of the Sopranos" question -- crass commercialism.
Artistic considerations are well and good, but The Sopranos exists for HBO primarliy as a profit center. And while killing Tony Soprano off may have been the most artistically sound ending (and I think it was -- not only was it karmic justice, but sending him off to jail or putting him in the witness protection program really only engender more questions than closure) it would also be killing the goose that laid the golden egg. For now contracts may be expiring, participants looking forward to greener pastures and everyone is no doubt burned out and looking forward to "moving on." But all those things can change over time as creative juices start flowing again the idea of a reunion payday starts to look good to everyone involved (and I think David Chase's comments support this view).
Berube:
Now, the fact that Chase didn't even give us a gunshot to go on, no clue that Tony really dies -- well, so what? Are there really ghosts in The Turn of the Screw, or is the governess mad? (That debate has been going on for more than a century now.) We're left to wonder whether we've been duped into thinking that Tony dies because all the staging in that final scene -- the brief shots of each of the restaurant patrons, the focus on the guy going to the men's room, the closeups of Meadow having trouble parking the car -- feels like the generic suspense-creatin' mechanisms that precede a catastrophe. We stop and ask ourselves how much of our reaction depends on those narrative mechanisms. And so the ending becomes, in a meta- way, not Chase's "final fuck you" to the viewers (as so many pissed-off viewers have said) but, rather, a form of what did you expect? -- except that it's a real question, not a rhetorical one.It might not be utterly brilliant or anything, but it works for me. . . .
Considering the fact that Chase's hands were probably no doubt tied by the necessities of a financial future (his own as much as anybody else's), his ability to work around that and at the same time deliver an emotionally satisfying ending may in fact qualify as brilliant. Tony dies and lives at the same time. It's a tough to serve two masters in a case like this and make them both happy, but I think Chase managed just that.
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zed?
bada bing!
zed lives….
numero tres for Hillary?
/quatro. Hi Jane, Kirk and Edward!
kirk murphy @ 2
Thank God! I was worried the tradition was lost within the Lake!!!
I thought it was a brilliant ending. Here is my take on it.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....93520/2142
No HBO here, so not much to add except that Leahy has a meeting Thursday re: issuing subpoenas about wiretapping. That’s a good thing.
http://thinkprogress.org/
I have no idea of this was Chase’s intent but the phrase “Banality of evil” is what comes to mind. Just showing Tony and family in the most mundane, day-to-day type situation as possible and then fade to black.
Schroedinger’s Mobster.
Hah, Mickey Kaus on w/Lou Dobbs, talking about immigration…
It’s the old “who shot Jr.” thing. They’ll probably be back I’d guess, depending on demand and money.
I LOVE Jane and hate to nitpick but this is the second time I have seen this word misused online, and I have learned through this site to appreciate others for gently and not so gently correcting my mistakes:
Loathe is a verb meaning “to hate intensely.” It ends with a soft th like the sound in smooth or breathe.
Loath is an adjective meaning “unwilling.” It ends with a hard th and rhymes with growth or both.
Examples: He was loath to admit that he was included in the deal.
(Unwilling)
Alex loathes spiders. (Hates them)
pontificator @ 6
I gotta concur.
Laura Flanders on Dobbs.
Call your reps tell them to support Senator Webbs Senate Bill 759
Senator Webbs Senate Bill 759
Prohibition on use of funds for military operations in Iran.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.759:
I wasn’t following it too closely while it was on, but wasn’t there a part about the Sopranos not wanting their son to enlist? Does that mean Tony Soprano (corrupt killer) was supposed to be an anti-war Democrat? I know…probably a reach..
No HBO here no MSNBC either but all the hype has convinced me to maybe visit the video store and rent the series.
Ha! They just compared immigration to the Sopranos…
LS @ 16
Yeah they had a sit-down with AJ and talked him out of it…
I heard somebody on the radio mention Nancy Marchant as Tony’s mother. She made the show worth watching the first few years. The NJ Black Widow…and the only character who Tony really feared.
I like the theory that is based on Tony’s conversation with Bobby earlier in the season, when they were talking about how it probably was to experience being whacked. Tony sais something like, “You don’t see or hear anything…it just goes black.”
Well, what happened was David Chase “whacked” the viewers. Think about how we were all waiting for something to happen, and suddenly it goes black. No noise, no nothing. You’re dead.
Also, Ned Lamont is live blogging at Kos right now.
Jane, we so rarely disagree - but on this weighty matter we do! I found the ending far from satisfying. I was joking when I wrote that it was a hit on his audience from the Democratic Party for not supporting their war wimpiness - but I DO think it was a hit on the audience in one sense.
He seemed to make the statement that “in life we all fashion our own endings.” Sorry, I’ve heard it before. For me, it was coitus interruptus after eight years of foreplay.
Connecticut Bob @ 21
Good point!!!
Okay, this time I read the thread from the beginning. The Sopranos. Hmmmm. Since I’ve been OT all day, here’s another:
AP says Lynne Cheney’s spokesperson (got all that?) would not deny that Mrs. Darth might be a candidate for the Wyoming U.S. Senate seat. Oh, lordy, I’m gonna hurl for sure.
I loved the ending. My brother said as soon as he saw the last episode was written and directed by David Chase, he knew we would be in for something unexpected. I thought the last scene was brilliant…it raised our pulse rates and sense as dread, as everybody who came in became a threat. It is what Tony’s life has become…treating every strange face as a possible threat. Alan Sepinwall at NJ.com has had some pretty good analyses.
Reid Pledges Amendments On Iraq Timeline, Readiness Standards, Feingold Bill
Post on Think Progress
http://thinkprogress.org/
For the lawyers out in FDL land.
So now that the A*P*C trial has been delayed for the 5th or is it 6th time, and McNulty’s resignation is active as of late June (I believe)
How does McNulty being taken out effect the trial?
If Fitz had been taken out of the Libby investigation/trial that would have been huge right?
So is/was McNulty as integral apart of the A*P*C Rosen espionage investigation trial as Fitz was/is to the Libby trial?
stupid question…
so, does this mean that i should, or should not, consider watching the series via netflix?
Connecticut Bob @ 21
Which thread?
A freind sent me this:
I guess we’ll have to go back and whatch those old episodes, but if this is correct it would be very cool.
Loo Hoo. @ 28
Whoops! Here it is:
O.k. for Bush administration to hold Iraninan Diplomats but not for the Iranians to hold Americans. Monkey see Monkey do!
http://www.alertnet.org/thenew.....233783.htm
Beth #9,
I totally agree. “Schroedinger’s Mobster”. That was my take on it as well. I was reading through, going to post that, and there you were.
I have never seen the Sopranos, but the argument about the story’s ending doesn’t really require that. Our tradition of tying up loose ends in stories isn’t the only way to tell stories. Ambivalence, cyclical, magical realism, all of these are other ways to tell stories. Must we know if he dies there? Ever since I was a child “They lived happily ever after” sounded like a cop out. Justice, poetic or otherwise, might satisfy a certain urge — but maybe we shouldn’t always get what we want. Satisfaction isn’t necessarily what we need in our storytelling. We should be open to a wider range of style and artistic expression.
It was a great ending.
I am reminded of the fact that Kafka’s novels were often left unfinished.
I’m still hanging out downstairs because I don’t care about the Sopranos, and am more interested in what to make of the Mudcat scramble. I found the official Edwards Facebook group, and since there wasn’t anything on Mudcat in their Discussion board, I decided to open up a new thread on it. I’ll post any response downstairs.
Bob in HI
Hey we have some great POV’s on the North Jersey single-bullet theory over at newcritics:
Bada Bye by Dennis Perrin
Sopranos Watch: This Thing of Ours by MA Peel
The Sense of an Ending by Chuck Tryon
I agree with Jane - Chase kept his options open, like Roger Clemens does when he “retires.”
Jane, from a person who has never seen the Sopranos, I have to ask, were you as addicted as Jeralyn from Talk Left? Her post about the series was amusing.
catalexis @ 34
No doubt. The happily ever after thing gets boring as you grow up. Makes you lose interest in storytelling when every ending is the same. I’ve always sought out non happy endings and non linear styles of writing. They’re incredibly satisfying after a childhood of happy endings. Just seeing other ways for things to end or even not end? Makes it worth the read. Or the watch, in TV series that do the work for that kind of ambiguity.
New Jersey newspaper intverviews David Chase, who says that nobody in the diner scene was in a previous episode.
Late to the party due to reading the comments resulting from Mudrat’s blog debut. Feels like I just finished an unusually delicious “helping” (now there’s a Southernism for ya) of kick-butt pie. *g*
Edwards actually hired this idiot?
I think Chase indicated that he is the real Tony Soprano. He shit on those who supported him for seven years and gave him a ton of money.
And therein lies the rub — to perform the same act on screen, Tony would have gone into witness protection. Is this any different than Donny Boy Rumsfeld or Weasel Wolfowitz? Once they are out of site, they are out of mind. Still corrupt, still sucking on a juicy goverment teat, but professionally identified as a “consultant.”
This is good.
Marcy Wheeler is reporting that Waxman has written to Condi to tell her that he has postponed the hearing for which her testimony was subpoenaed.
Waxman needs more time to prepare for the hearing because the “CIA and State Department have begun to provide important documents to the [Oversight] Committee” and “the documents are illuminating the Committee’s inquiry and will provide the predicate for a more thorough hearing [with Condi].”
OT my rep was just on CNN complaining about earmarks. Dr. Price is a joke…
Anyone notice anything different????
I got me a new Toshiba Satellite Laptop!!!
WooooooooooHooooooooooo
I loved the ending too and I’m amazed people really thought their cable had gone out. That’s crazy.
It was a completely brilliant way to end the series!
The whole last scene was from Tony’s pov and think about it… if you were in film school and had the assignment to convey a death, wouldn’t you turn the screen to black? That’s the obvious solution.
But Chase is covering his bets if he decides to do a film. Although it would surprise me because it would diminish his *artistic integrity*… but what the heck. I really think the ending clearly implied the main character’s death.
The show was magnificent.
The joke’s on me as I try to participate in the Virginia Democratic primary today.
“No you can’t vote here” is what they told me at my own polling place. After some polite questioning, I left to make inquiries. It turned out to be a mistake on my part.
Takehome lesson:
Now I have more sympathy with people of color who are turned away unfairly from their polling place, after missing out on the day’s wages, waiting in line, and then being told they can’t vote.
As a veteran of 50 films over my lifetime I say the ending was horseshit.
The bigger picture to me is television in general and the way they regard the audience these days.
Reality shows have replaced decent programming and even if you start watching a interesting series the chances are that the show will end suddenly and leave you hanging without wrapping it up just like the Sopranos.
I remember the days when the new season started in September and ended in June without any breaks or reruns. Now the networks start in November or later and play games with reruns after only a few weeks take entire months off and act like they are doing us a favor by showing us “fresh” “all new” episodes once in a while.
Fuck the Vast Wasteland.
Nothing happened to a man that deserved the worst. Just like life.
The viewers got wacked ; )
Hey–what happened to Tony’s shrink? Was she in this episode?
Well, for me the electricreally did go out. At 8:00 on Sunday night we had a very bad electrical storm. My son hooked up his battery backup and got the television goingat9:00. We had 36 minutes until the backup went dead. It really pissed me off.
FWIW, I loved the last Sopranos show. But then, I hate tidy little endings for the most part, too — leaving a bit to my imagination is appealing, especially given the possibility of a later revisit with some of the characters. (Hang in there, Sil. *g*)
I just love Paulie.
I cancelled my HBO subscription on Monday morning after realizing the only reason I kept it going was for the Sopranos. I think Time Warner got a lot of those *cancel my account!* phone calls after that show’s finale.
HBO really could be programming some more interesting movies or something. Weird.
Tony’s shrinkerator was in the second to last episode and she fired him.
Chisty sez: “Hang in there, Sil”.
Bwahahahaha!
Paulie’s best line was when Tony told everybody he took peyote…Paulie says “back in 1968, somebody put acid in my drink and I saw laser beams shooting out of your Uncle June’s eyes!” Classic Paulie!
For those uninitiated, if you can handle misogeny, profanity, violence and lots of other bad behaviors, I would definitely recommend it. The characters and story is strong. A network show it is NOT however.
I think they should of ended it with previous episode. Tony sitting on a mattress, with a gun
*xyz @ 43
Waxman is my Hero!!! Sighh… The barrage of subpoenas must be weakening Foggy Bottom’s Stone Walls!!! I’m sure there are some highly incriminating, err, I mean illuminating papers being provided to Waxman!!! Pass the Popcorn, should get mighty interesting, even better than Tony’s demise?!!! LOL *g*
I really liked John From Cincinnati. It was soooooo California. Southern that is.
ccmask @ 45
As If…!!! ;-)
So will the Sopranos show up on TNT or USA or do I have to rent it? I feel so left out without HBO?
RonD @ 33
Just arrived and had to say me too. This is clearly a superposition of the dead and alive states of an uncollapsed wave function and sometime mobster.
FYI, Mudcat has another post at the Swampland..
Also this leaves the possibility open for a Sopranos Christmas special.
Sopranos Intro - Alabama 3 - Woke Up This Morning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV998KL38IE
LOL
Wolf Blitzer just said Michael Moore’s film is called “Sick of”. Maybe I heard it wrong, but if true, it reminds me of “fuck you very much”.
I haven’t had much time or energy for blogging this week, but I just had to take a few minutes to say Happy Loving Day!
Hugh @ 66
Haaaaaa!
It is on A&E and they have ADR’d it for “family” consumption. Paid Gandolfini alone a mil for the dialog replacement.
Sorry to go “off topic,” but I’m somewhat serious about this:
Can we quit referring to Dave Saunders by his self-imposed “folksy” nickname? Personally, I’m referring to him as Dave “I Focus-Group Tested This Nickname and the Ratings Were Off the Dial” Saunders, and I think you should, too.
Using that bullshit “nickname” of his is just playing into his whole fake “bubba” persona.
My Aunt Marie is buried in the cemetery they show in the opening credits, and we drove past Pizzaland on the way there. Hilarious!
How about Dave the douchebag?
CTuttle @ 62
I tells ya and I tells ya; ya shoulda gots the Mac… ;})
Well, when you think about it, it’s a typical last episode for The Sopranos
Remember when Pu$$y got taken out on the boat and got whacked by the guys, which was a really weird show with the talking fish and all. I know it had “closure” but it was really strange
And The Pine Barrens with the disappearing Russians
Doctor Melfi not telling Tony about the rapist
Not seeing Adriana being shot
etc …
I loved the ending too and I’m amazed people really thought their cable had gone out.
HA! We did!
BTW, I’m sure none of you kids remember this, but I saw a lot of parallels between the reactions to the last episode of “Sopranos” and the last episode of “The Prisoner” - including the creator leaving the country ’til things cool off!
Even after posting a comment on Swampland, I’m beginning to feel bad for Mudcat. What will his post say tomorrow?
Haven’t watched the show in years. No HBO.
Twisted Martini @ 74
I would say shortened to “Dave the Douche” but that would be an insult to the previous holder of that paraphrased name (obscure movie reference)
Dave:
HA! Guess I’m in the minority then. :)
kathleen @ 27
Ma’am, can you provide any background Linkies? I’m not a lawyer, but, I am a Paralegal, and, I’m very interested in the case!!! *g*
JPL @ 63
You can probably getiton Netflix. Sign up for a month and watch the whole thing. I think they are running a free trial right now.
FREE TRIAL HERE
fuhgeddaboutit - There’s too much money involved. Here’s how it’s gonna be -
Next Fall - A new series will begin on HBO called “Paradise.”
In the pilot, Tony will ‘wake-up’ in a hospital bed with DeLay, Frist and Ken Lay leaning over his bedside.
The setting will be a super-secret ‘gated’ island in the Northern Mariannas, euphemistically called Club Paradise by the residents.
Despite having everything desirable to excess on the island for the uber privileged, something essential is missing…
dakine01 @ 75
I am a creature of habits. But this 17″ screen is the best, I swear. The good thing about it is that if you belong to Netfloix, you can go to the website and hit “watch now” and now with this big screen, it’s great. I’m not used to Vista yet.
LS @ 68
It’s Sicko
PS All you Cali people, contact your State Senator to support SB 840
With McNulty being the lead prosecutor in the “A…c” trial, it makes sense why they iced him out of everything. Maybe that is why he’s going to testify again to shed some light on motive for being cut out of operations. If not, they should ask him.
john in sacramento @ 86
I know it’s Sicko. Blitzer seemed to say Sick of.
ccmask @ 85
Vista is Mac OS X from ‘01. Nothing at all new, just the usual MS 5-6 year lag time.
Wolf is constipated ;-)
Most likely I will drop my HBO too. Other than the Sopranos, they show nothing but old stuff over & over again. The new movies they have to put on Pay-per-view to try to make all the money they can before putting it on HBO. And frankly, I’m getting tired of paying 70 bucks a month for it.
john in sacramento @ 86
John,
Do you know about itsyourhealthcare.org?
Guess I’m in the minority then.
Maybe not… I’m just a believer in Murphy’s Law.
And for the record, count me in the “Tony Got Whacked” column. Weird guy at the counter coming out of the toilet with more than just his dick in his hands…
I thought it was a crushing end to the series….
Mary at 92
I do now, thanks
dave @ 93
Was that Michael Corleone? (strains of Godfather theme playing in the background)
Phil Leotardo @ 94
LOL Phil!
I was disappointed in the ending but I’m so happy Tony didn’t get whacked. For me, they were just another family eating at the diner.
I thought for sure the three of them were going to get it and Meadow would miss it. So it had me on the edge of my seat.
If someone shot you, would the bullet reach your head before the sound did?
AJ got wierd fast. I love how they didn’t want him to go to Iraq.
Elliott @ 99
Yuk.
Elliott @ 99
Not if there was a silencer on the gun!
Depends on if you were facing the shooter or not.
Elliott @ 99
How would you know???
Depends on if you were facing Cheney or not.
I’ve only watched one (1) episode of this show early in the run. Didn’t do it for me. However, I’ve got a couple of movies to recommend highly starring the Sopranos’ two main leads-
Edie Falco- “Sunshine State” (John Sayles)
James Gandolfini- “The Man Who Wasn’t There” (Coen Bros.)
BTW, if you’re into perplexing endings, check out Sayles’ “Limbo”…
Marie Roget @ 106
Limbo and the Soprano’s ending were almost exactly the same!
Oh geez! Countdown without KO and the woman sitting in uses the tease of paris’ parents going by the PRISON to see her. SHE’S IN JAIL NOT IN PRISON! They are two separate and distinct entities.
edit: sorry for the rant…
Actually if it had been my choice for a last scene for the last episode, I would have had Tony go out to get the paper in the morning and heard, then shown, some ducks flying overhead, and as they fade away into the distance, two big black SUV’s coming down the road, one from the left and one from the right … then go black.
What about the DUCKS?
I need closure about the ducks!!! ;-)
john in sacramento @ 109
LOL
raven @ 107
Yup ;-)
Elliott @ 99
Typically, the bullet travels faster than the speed of sound!!! Any other Questions??? *g*
I feel so much better. At long last I now know the reason for our gross failure in Iraq. It’s the bureaucracy. Not the fact that the occupied want the occupiers out.
AP - Two years after the nation’s commando forces were given broad authority to attack terrorist networks, the elite units remain hampered by uncertainty over coordination, says the admiral chosen to head the U.S. Special Operations Command.
It wasn’t so funny for me, though!
;)
Cozumel @ 97
The Gonzales story sure died a quick death.
CTuttle @ 112
Aha! so if it’s all from Tony’s point of view, then he wouldn’t have heard the gunshot, hence the silence when the screen went black.
OfT: Bush wore a yellow tie on Capitol Hill for the GOP lunch today.
Not sure I’ve ever seen him wear a yellow tie before.
Not sure I remember what wearing a yellow tie means, anymore….
john in sacramento @ 109
Don’t let it get in your head, john…!
:D
Interesting that someone’s going after Mueller. Where is that coming from?