Last Thursday, a Republican punched a Democrat on the floor of the Alabama Senate:
Now it's wrong to say that this sort of thing only happens in the South; but it is right to say that for America, its origin as a tendency is Southern. Punching someone instead of arguing with them -- the instinct to use violence as the first, best answer to a threat not just against one's person, but against one's position or "honor", is something very old, enduring, and ingrained in Southern culture.
"Violence as the first resort" is a basic part of Southern identity and tradition. There's an old study of Southern psychology, The Mind of the South by W.J. Cash that, whatever its other faults, describes the tendency very well:
In focusing the old backcountry pride upon the ideas of superiority to the Negro and the peerage of white men, and thereby (fully in the masses, and in some basic manner even in the planters) divorcing it from the necessity for achievement, it inevitably shifted emphasis back upon and lent new impulsion to the purely personal and puerile attitude which distinguishes the frontier outlook everywhere.And when to that was added the natural effect on the planters of virtually unlimited sway over their bondsmen, and the natural effects on the common whites of the example of these planters, it evenuated in this: that the individualism of the plantation world be one which, like that of the backcountry before it, would be far too much concerned with bald, immediate, unsupported assertion of the ego, which placed too great stress on the inviolability of personal whim, and which was full of the chip-on-shoulder swagger and brag of a boy -- one, in brief, of which the essence was the boast, voiced or not, on the part of every Southerner, that he would knock hell out of whoever dared to cross him.
This character is of the utmost significance. For its corollary was the perpetuation and acceleration of the tendency to violence which had grown up in the Southern backwoods as it naturally grows up on all frontiers. Other factors [...] played their part in perpetuating and elaborating this pattern, too. But none was more decisive than this one. However careful they might be to walk softly, such men as these of the South were bound to often come into conflict. And being what they were -- simple, direct, and immensely personal -- and their world being what it was -- conflict with them could only mean immediate physical clashing, could only mean fisticuffs, the gouging ring, and knife and gun play.
Nor was it private violence that was thus perpetuated. The Southerner's fundamental approach carried over into the realm of public offenses as well. What the direct willfulness of his individualism demanded, when confronted by a crime that aroused his anger, was immediate satisfaction for itself -- catharsis for personal passion in the spectacle of a body dancing at the end of a rope or writing in the fire -- now, within the hour -- and not some ponderous abstract justice in a problematic tomorrow. And so, in this world of ineffective social control, the tradition of vigilante action, which normally lives and dies with the frontier, not only survived but grew so steadily that already long before the Civil War [...] the South had become peculiarly the home of lynching. [...]
Allow what you will for esprit de corps, for this or that, the thing that sent him up the slope at Gettysburg [...] was before all else nothing more or less than the thing which elsewhere accounted for his violence -- was nothing more ot less than his conviction, the conviction of every farmer among what was essentially only a band of farmers, that nothing living could cross him and get away with it.
When Senator Bishop punched Senator Barron for calling him a son of a bitch, he was simply adhering to a Southern tradition. Obviously, Senator Barron was being obnoxious. Yes, and Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts was pompous and conceited (when U.S. Grant was told Senator Sumner didn't believe in the Bible, the general was spot-on in his reply: "That's only because he didn't write it."), but even so, it did not mean that another Southern traditionalist, Congressman Preston Brooks of South Carolina ought to have beat him down with a cane on the floor of the Senate while a Southern comrade held back by gunpoint any attempts at intervention. And indeed, it's only because the majority of American opinion is Liberal -- which is to say, disgusted by manifestations of violent Southern tradition -- that Senator Zell Miller could not follow through on his famous wish to meet Chris Matthews on the field of honor.
Contrast the description in the Cash quote to the perennial claims of wingnuts that the Republican Party is the party of ideas, whereas the Democratic Party is the party of feelings. Actually, wingnuts act the way they do because of feelings, too -- except theirs are the wrong sort of feelings, child-tantrum feelings, impulsive and violent.
Wingnuttia, which knows it is troglodytic, admires the Southern cultural tradition of impulsive violence for exactly that quality. Wingnuttia perpetuates it, inculcates it, exalts it; indeed, it would like to universalize it. As Hank Jr. might say, when wingnuts rage on and want America to bomb Muslims all night long, well it's a Southern tradition. And that tradition of interpersonal, tribalist, and racist violence, acted out of impulse and entirely divorced from reason, entirely influences everything they do.
Like, in foreign policy. The Southern tradition of impulsive violence is part of what Walter Russell Mead calls "The Jacksonian Tradition", named after President Andrew Jackson of Tennessee, a semi-literate hothead who raged against those who offended his honor--and sometimes killed them. Now Mead likes Jacksonian America, and seeks to conflate it with all sorts of simple populist tendencies so as to make it more palatable to the masses; he believes America needs Jacksonians, and so avoids describing in unadorned language what they are really all about -- armed to the teeth, irrational, itching for a fight with anyone, anywhere. But the Freepers can parse his code, see themselves in the Jacksonian mirror. Reading their comments one can almost hear the "yeeeeeeeeee haws" and "tarnations". And Perfesser Corncob of Knoxville, Tennessee, echoes their rebel yells. Oh, yes, America: all your Jacksonian base are belong to wingnuts!
Sigh.
Contra the Jacksonians, the way of civilization is to solve international disputes without violence. Through diplomacy. Though this is not always possible, it is the proper "first, best" response to a problem. This is exactly purpose of the State Department; and only if and when the State Department fails does another executive branch ministry, the Department of Defense (which was originally and honestly named the Department of War before Empire's hardworking euphemists gave it a make-over) take action. Naturally then, wingnuts detest the State Department's whole reason for existence. State Department "realists" versus Department of Defense neocons has been the primary internecine conflict of the Bush administration. For a long time there, you could scarcely read anything by Frum, Perle, Krauthammer, et al. that did not have a sneer at Colin Powell's expense inserted somewhere in the text, usually accusing Powell's State Department of sabotaging the war effort. And now they hate Condi, whom they loved when she was National Security Advisor. Condi has not changed, but her position has; as Secretary of State her job is diplomacy not jingoism. So now that she's not a jingo, she sucks. As an example, here's Michael Ledeen, snarling at diplomats and recommending Joe "Bomb Iran" Lieberman for Secretary of State. As is usual for neocons, Ledeen's formula is to demonize diplomats as "appeasers". Ledeen wants to eliminate diplomats and replace them with jingos; he wants to change the very nature of the State Department so that it ceases to think and communicate and haggle; he wants it to bomb first and ask questions and think about consequences later; and Ledeen is right that Joe Lieberman is no diplomat. Yet, even if Ledeen got his wish and Lieberman were made Secretary of State, it's doubtful he or the rest of the neocons would be satisfied. Even Henry Kissinger, war criminal, is not and was not bellicose enough for their tastes. But then it kind of logically if sociopathically follows that there is a point at which even overkill fails to sate the urges of those who are recklessly and impulsively violent. Neocons are Jacksonians 2.0.
It's a pathetic situation. The Southern tendency to impulsive stupidity is everywhere. The Southern tendency to impulsive violence, however, is mostly confined to wingnuttia -- a deserving home. And it goes without saying that it remains in the geographical South. I'm a Southerner by birth and have lived most of my life in Arkansas and Tennessee. Impulsive violence surrounds me; and I admit that I have sometimes engaged in it or have wanted to. But as Cash says, it's a part of the frontier mentality. Only under special conditions did it survive the demise of the frontier. Those conditions are caused in large part by the desire of people to preserve things that ought to go over the cliff. Wingnuts seek to preserve this part of the Southern tradition because it suits their warmongering purposes. Which is all the reason more why we should let it die. When Rush Limbaugh attacked the First Daughter by comparing her to a dog, the Southerner in me wanted Bill Clinton to storm "EIB" studios and kick his fat ass. But it would have been wrong, and a bad example. Part of being civilized is trying to overcome the nasty habits of one's culture. We may not always be successful, but we must try.
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zed uno
Why am I still all alone here?
Yay Cassie…clearly you’re stalking Late Night.
G’evening, HTML. How do we change a culture that is rooted in not changing?
SnarKassandra @ 2
Patience, young Jedi.
Mutant Poodle @ 3
I probably won’t be on the next two nights so I had to get it in now!
The bottom thread was slow to refresh…maybe they don’t know yet.
Evening all. How’s life in the Lake tonight? I had a bit of a thrill today. I saw a bear. Went for a short hike (2 hours) up a side trail in the Rattlesnake National Recreation Area (just outside of town) this afternoon. Got to the turnaround point and was sitting down resting, when I looked up and saw it crossing the trail about 50 yards ahead of me. Didn’t get a real good look (never saw the head, just from the shoulder back), but it was a big brown bear (the size of a full grown black bear or a young grizzly). As soon as it got out of sight, I got up and left (especially since it was headed my way). Since it was just a short hike, I didn’t have my bear spray and forgot to take my camera as well.
Suzanne @ 4
We don’t. When has any culture ever changed for the better because an outsider intervened?
Suzanne @ 4
Hey Suz…nobody like change, do they? Work on what you believe with an open heart, hope for the best. What else is there to do?
Evenin’ all. Southern by birth, but lucky enough to be raised by enlightened parents. But I too have seen some of the impulsive stupidity around here.
AnnieW @ 7
Are the tech guys still locked in back? I still hang up occasionally on refresh and/or post comments.
Suzanne - after you get that foot iced can you throw them a pizza and see what’s up?
I agree, EDP, the change must come from within. Not from outsiders.
I am a Texan who has never yet left Texas. We talk more southern than people up north, but I don’t know if it is the same culture.
Isn’t it mostly guys that want to punch people when they hear an insult?
Drdick,
Honey, if you live where the bears live…please take care of yourself. One might want to go home with you. So cool. I was excited to see deer up where I live, but a bear? Oh, my.
Good post HTML. I know what you mean about Southern “impetuosity”. I grew up and lived in Oklahoma for 35 years. While I have been gone for 20 years I still get that ingrained urge to violence or stupidity. I refer to it as my “inner Okie” and try to keep it locked up in a closet in the psychic basement most of the time.
SnarKassandra @ 14
Usually adolescents or drunken adults.
Or whiny Republicans.
SnarKassandra @ 14
I would say, no, it isn’t. At least Austin isn’t.
Often, but not necessarily.
SnarKassandra @ 14
Touche, girl! No doubt, it is usually the male half of the species hat gets all riled up about honor.
Women, of course, traditionally had to find more subtle methods of revenge.
And yes, Texas is its “own self” (not sure, that may be a quote from Molly Ivins). Lots of South, a little midwest, plenty of frontier, but still, not the same as Alabama, or even Virginia.
i just checked and downstairs is refreshing fine - sometimes the wheel hangs up when a new post first posts - i’m sure they will be along shortly.
I think the democratic senator missed a golden opportunity to punch back in self defense, and who knows what damage he could have extracted with a well executed upper cut ….
EvilDrPuma @ 9
Particularly, at Gun Point!!! ;-)
EvilDrPuma @ 18
SnarKassandra @ 14
Well yes and no. The South is not monolithic, nor are any of the states that make it up. Texas, like Oklahoma, shares the Southern culture of violence on the whole. There are, however, islands of sanity, like Austin or Norman. As to who punches people. Yes, it is mostly guys (though not all of them - I haven’t hit anyone since I was 16), but there are more than a few redneck girls and women I would not want mad at me.
Suzanne @ 13
I sometimes think the human race is pathetic. We just haven’t evolved far enough.
tejanarusa @ 23
Unless you count DFW (I don’t), Austin is the only place I’ve been in Texas. On the rest of the state, I plead limited experience.
DrDick @ 24
I haven’t hit anyone since 5th grade.
I’m new to late night, so please excuse my nosiness, but I thought snarkass…was a teenage girl. How come she’s hangin’ out with a bunch of old foggies like us? Anyone? I have a 24 year old daughter and I would ask the same if she were here.
Southern women (like my mother) have a very different tactic to punching someone. They are not called steel magnolias for nothing.
Bush displayed this type of agression to the T when he told the insurgents and Al-Quada to “bring it on!”
dmoore @ 28
Cause I like to be here and I am interested in politics and I like the people and I have to be home by 10 anyway unless I am with my aunt or my brother.
SnarKassandra @ 27
How about that - me too!
Suzanne, ain’t that the truth!
SnarKassandra @ 27
Good for you. Neither have I.
Well said. Having been born and raised in the Old South (in the 50’s) I can attest to the chip-on-the-shoulder attitude. What I also noticed was that the more involved a kid was into his education the less he was likely to adopt that type of behaviour. We were called bookworms but left pretty much alone. It did pay to know how to defend one’s self, however.
SnarKassandra @ 31
Cassie’s aunt also posts here, and supervises her quite well, thank you very much.
The undercurrent of imminent violence in Southern culture has fascinated me for a large part of my life. I have long suspected that it may be rooted in slavery, as the paradigm of controlling slaves with violence and fear may have created a corollary paradigm of treating any object of anger with violence.
The cultural anthropologists here may think me out to lunch. If so, I will gratefully accept their correction.
Suzanne @ 29
I always referred to it as the razor claw in the velvet glove. Those ladies can eviscerate you with just a glance.
“It’s a pathetic situation. The Southern tendency to impulsive stupidity is everywhere.”
Well folks….I think this article is the biggest bunch of bullshit I have EVER read at FDL. What next? All blacks are stupid? All mexicans are lazy?
Does Mr. Mencken have a brain? Sadly, no.
Ghostman
EvilDrPuma @ 34
In my family there’s a classic photo of my younger sister (at about age three) getting ready to haul off and belt me (about age 4). But other than that, I can’t recall myself ever striking out at anyone.
SnarKassandra @ 31
No need to excuse yourself to this (I assume) guy, Cassie. He’s clearly ageist. And age should be no barrier to conversation.
OT
about the facebook thing=
i emailed facebook on how to get rid of my birthdate and email on my facepage—they emailed me back that you aren’t allowed to use nicknames, i used dmac dmac, and that using nicknames violates their policy—i’ve been kicked off, unless i use my full real name. for those of you who do sign up-use your fdl name as a middle name so we know who you are. i might re-join with real name, don’t know yet.
h/t to all of you i saw on there HIYAH!!!!!!!!!! I’VE BEEN DELETED, i tried it earlier, i’m out, bummer. =========================================
here’s the letter i received
Hi —–,
Thank you for your Email.
Please understand that fake names are a violation of our Terms of
Use. Facebook requires users to provide their full first and last
names (i.e. no initials). Impersonating anyone or anything is
prohibited. Nicknames are only permitted if they are a variation of
your first or last name.
If you would like to use this profile again, just get back to us with
your real name and we will reactivate the account for you. At this
time I can further instruct you on how to make the requested
changes to your profile.
Thanks for your understanding,
Dori
Customer Support Representative
Facebook
Tarnation, Mencken, Limbaugh compared his daughter to a dog? Any drugs involved?
SnarKassandra @ 14
Used to spend some time in TX (my ex-inlaws lived in Lubbock). Sure there are differences, but people are people and you would recognize the same types everywhere.
(blowing whistle)
DMoore was asking a question, not being ageist. It is a question that has been asked repeatedly since Cassie started commenting here.
No personal attacks are permitted at the Lake. Civil disagreement, of course, is encouraged.
For the record, DMoore is female - not a guy.
dmoore @ 28
We’re still trying to figure out who has no life….
From the wiki:
Austin’s official slogan promotes the city as “The Live Music Capital of the World”, a reference to its status as home to many musicians and music venues. In recent years, many Austinites have also adopted the unofficial slogan “Keep Austin Weird”; this refers partly to the eclectic and progressive lifestyle of many Austin residents, but is also the slogan for a campaign to preserve smaller local businesses and resist excessive commercialization.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin,_Texas
Clean up on Aisle 39, Stat!!!
Dang, Dr. Dick, sounds like quite an adventure! What is bear spray?
CT, Ghostman is a long time commenter here at the Lake.
RonD @ 37
I also have been fascinated by the phenomenon, but am not sure of its origins. I think it derives from a variety of sources. One interesting point is that most of the violence is generally internecine, with perpetrator and victim knowing each other. The difference became glaringly obvious when I moved to Chicago. You are much more likely to get punched out at the country club in the South than in a working class bar in Chicago.
SouthernDragon @35:
My experience as a certified nerd and bookworm was somewhat different. The redneck thugs seemed to think we made tempting targets (the last time I hit someone was in self defense by the way).
Look at this:
Judge Deems Women 20% Less Valuable Than Fetuses
Cassie, I have given your 2 sites to my 12 year old granddaughter and told her to call me if she doesn’t understand something or to Google it.
I think you have more common sense than most adults I know. Keep it up.
PeterK #41,
I don’t think dmoore meant to be derogatory in any way. I think, like many, SnK’s intelligence and eloquence bespeak someone much older, and dmoore was simply looking for clarification.
No name-calling required.
DrDick @ 8
That’s always one heck of a thrill, especially when it’s coming at you. Luckily, I’ve never had it end badly. ^_^
I will tell you that the cougar that was over my head a few years ago scared me even worse, though.
EvilDrPuma @ 36
Suzanne @ 4
You can start by endlessly reminding them that we won the war. As I learned during my freshman year at Washington & Lee, there is no easier way to get under the skin of the true Suthruner.
;-)
dmac @42 — I was able to successfully change from my real name to my FDL handle, FWIW
I would like to say that I agree with much of this post. I was born and raised in Alabama, then went to college in Tennessee and now live in Texas. The hair trigger supremacy violence does appear to be a prevalent part of Southern identity. It also seems to me that the violence is not gender segregated.
That said, I would like to suggest that the inclusion of the statement regarding the South as having become “peculiarly the home of lynching” is less than helpful or accurate. That particular horror was, without argument, largely perpetuated in the South. However, the other parts of the country are not free from a history of lynching.
As for tejanarusa in 23, I would like to say that Austin is very liberal in comparison to the rest of Texas. But- the city is not nearly as objectively liberal as it would like to think that it is. It’s great compared to almost anywhere in the South and anywhere else in Texas, true. But in my experience here, it is not as liberal as many would like to think it is.
burnspbesq @ 56
That is an advisarial approach. I was trying to think of a less in the face approach.
LoudounLib @ 58
I don’t use my real name on Facebook. It’s like wordpress where my name is FRECKLES CASSIE. I also don’t let anyone past HS on my friend list.
SnarKassandra @ 2
Did you join the FDL group on Facebook? And add Jane as a friend? ;-)
Suzanne @ 50
Yes’m, duly noted!!!
RonD @ 53
OK, I maybe put that out too fast, I meant it more as a comment than an attack, but perhaps it didn’t sound that way. But it seems wrong to me that a young person should have to explain why she (or he, for that) is spending time blogging with older people. Why do we focus so much on our differences?
PeterK @ 41
Hi, everybody.
Sorry for the typos and so on in my post. I’m not used to writing for a deadline and it shows. Thanks to FDL and Jane and TRex especially for letting me come here.
See, that’s the thing. With every error and infelicity and grammatical fu*k up and hostile sentence I put into the post, I prove my own thesis. Awesome, huh!
Suzanne, would you email me please if you have a second? I have a * really * dumb technical question ;-)
Loo Hoo. @ 49
Bear spray is industrial strength pepper spray. Tends to discourage them from getting too familiar. Those of us who hike into more remote areas routinely take it with us for just such encounters. Bears are not really very aggressive unless they feel threatened (like if you suddenly come up on one). If they hear you coming, they will generally run away. For camping in the wilderness, however, I take a gun, as the smell of food can attract them to your camp and make them more aggressive. You have to be fairly close to use the pepper spray and bears can charge at 35-45 mph.
Suzanne #59,
I have tried the conversational, let’s-discuss-the-issues approach to analyzing Southern-specific issues with many of my peers( I am a native Floridian, and have lived my entire life in the South)-and what happens is this: when you convince them that they’re wrong, they often then try to punch you in the face.
LoudounLib @ 66
A lot of us here are in no place to judge technical questions!
Welcome, HTML. We have been bickering nicely while waiting for you. Thank you for sitting in for TRex tonight.
james @ 46
James is a great name. My father. My son. There’s no reason that I can see for your comment.
Twain @ 53
I will second that. I think my oldest grandson is still a little young (11) or I would send him there.
oh baloney.
The south is certainly violent, but c’mon: need we forget the violence of Boston Mass, New Bedford, Philadelphia (murder city, USA)?
I’m as happy to pile on dumbass rednecks as anyone else, but this post is stupid. Totally fucking stupid.
PeterK @ 63
As a father of young kids (13 and 11) I immediately understood the question altho I never questioned Snark’s presence here assuming that this site isn’t being lurked by predators and the presence of moderators in the wings.
Unfortunately when there are age differences known too many of us get that instinctive protective instinct going.
I know I piss my kids off when I look over their shoulders while they’re online…too bad.
RonD @ 69
Sounds like the 5th grade or even younger.
DreamingCrow @ 55
Yeah. We have those as well - even wander into town occassionally. Unlike bears, cougars really are pretty touchy and aggressive.
brendancalling @ 74
Are you going to Drinking Liberally in Philly tomorrow? I am gonna try, since I have not been in ages.
EvilDrPuma @ 70
;-)
Y’all have been so civil!
And to the dissenters, hey, I understand. But consider the source of the post, ya know? I’m not saying the South sucks per se, I’m just saying it has some horrible cultural traits. It has some good ones, too.
i only caught last few comments, have to go back and read them, just joined in,
cassie has an intellect and insight that foregoes most of us here…an exceptional intellect and life experience from which she has learned many insights, same as me….has two blogs and knows more about human experience and human nature and politics than most of us here….
my dad always said, always play tennis with someone better than you…….and i did, same as she is doing, learning…..and using it on her next opponent
hi cassie
dmoore @ 71
It was a failed attempt at humour, obviously….why would a kid be hanging out at a computer with a bunch of geezers who are hanging out at computers?
Sorry, it’s late here, or early
DrDick @ 73
Look at this 11 year old.
Snarkie #75, it does sound like a schoolyard, doesn’t it? The sad fact is, many people never shake off the lesons they learn in those schoolyards.
HTML Mencken @ 79
Yes, I (who live in ME) used to visit LA fairly often. One of the things I really liked (besides the food, which is fantastic) was the pace of life. People know how to get things done without hurrying too much. Quite different than the NE, and a very pleasant feeling.
RonD @ 81
Ding! (as NPB would say)
HTML Mencken @ 80
Of course.
Stupid is as stupid does…It’s a worldwide affliction.
james @ 81
Oh, okay, sorry. I don’t always get humour online. If we were face to face, I’da probably got it. I’m big on nonverbal. Thanks for clarifying. I really was just trying to figure it out.
Well, Mr. Mencken, I’m not a Southerner. I’m a Texan. But beyond that, what do you expect when you launch sweeping broadsides like this? Should everyone bow down in agreement?
You sorta kinda remind me of….Joe Klein! There’s been some articles on him recently here at FDL. Mr. Klein seems to also launch broadsides, and then when someone (or a blog) “swings back”, Mr. Klein just says “see there! They prove my point!”
Racism, and violence are always unfortunate. But there are plenty of pool hall fights up North as there are down South. I won’t call you names, but I stand by my disagreement with the content of your article.
Ghostman
RonD @ 68
Well, we certainly have video collaboration of what you say above! Wow. And to think it happened in The USofA in 2007, huh Ron?
blogging question —-
did FDL ever fire a blogger or did anyone ever quit? Do you have to delete their stuff when they leave, or can you keep it if they published it when they were on your blog?
I love it and I hate it. There’s the self-pity (still bemoaning carpetbaggers all these years) and the self-aggrandizement (the South will rise again!) but there’s also real pain (”The Night They Drove Ol’ Dixie Down”) and pride.
Thank you Suzanne! :-)
I’m southern, and proud of it. Not cool.
tommy yum @ 94
Why not? They make great cornbread :)
HTML Mencken @ 80
I have to agree. I actually like the South (except the summer heat), but I also recognize problems there. The same is true for Chicago (probably the most racist place I have ever been) or Montana (where they hate “the government”, but are totally dependent on it for their survival).
HTML Mencken @ 79
You mean like CTuttle always calling Suzanne Maam?
That’s sweet and shows respect.
Racism, and violence are always unfortunate. But there are plenty of pool hall fights up North as there are down South.
I agree with that. But the thing is, it’s not usually done according to a code of honor. Unless of course it is, in which case it’s often done according to a code adopted by criminal organizations — the mob and so on. And even then it’s more about power and material considerations than it is done out of an acculturated idea of pride, I think.
tommy yum @ 93
Why not, Tommy? I’m a born and bred Virginian, and proud.
Twain @ 95
And hush puppies…and fried green ‘matas
SnarKassandra @ 91
You guys pruning your roster?
It