
Good morning firepups!
Back here at Prettyman Courthouse. The old rules apply. Don't refresh wildly. I'll timestamp updates. If you haven't bought my book, buy that. If not, buy the new book out today by our own Jeff Lomonaco and some guy named Murray Waas.
If you haven't already read it, I recommend you read this post by Jeralyn, describing the normal process for someone turning himself in. Shorter Jeralyn: Libby's not getting a frogmarch today, so don't get your hopes up.
And just a reminder--here's the scope of what people are talking about. The PSR has recommended a sentence of 15 to 21 months (though the PSR also recommended that Libby get time off because he incurred such big legal bills and his friends had to pay for it). The Defense has asked for probation. And the Prosecution has asked for a sentence of 30-37. We'll start with a discussion about what the appropriate range for sentencing will be, and then we'll talk about bumping that up (because public officials and lawyers shouldn't lie) or downward (because Libby tried really hard to protect the country).
The courthouse is filling up--most of the prosecution team is here, several of them wearing nice springy suits rather than the dark winter ones (though Debra Bonamici is wearing a dark jacket--methinks she's determined to win her book-throwing argument). Fitz is wearing his favorite seer-suckery suit and bright blue tie.
Okay, the defense is coming in now--with everyone who has ever been associated with the case. It looks like Harriet is getting hugs right off. They're all wearing dark suits. Presumably because they get paid more and therefore dress more corporate. Libby is maintaining his cool, smiling, shaking hands. I couldn't see who came in with them, but they seem to have a bunch of people with them.
Some nervous joking between Wells, Fitz, and Jenna. Walton in.
9:29
Walton: [Walton is no nonsense, seems almost tired today] First matter calculation of appropriate guideline. I assume that both sides agree that if cross-referencing is no appropriate then guideline is 15-21 months.
Fitz: no your honor.
Walton: You're saying 3 levels
Fitz: Substantial interference with justice.
Walton: and if cross-referencing is held to be applicable, is there any disagreement that guideline is 30-37 months.
Fitz: Not from govt.
Jeffress: govt has suggested in papers and argued at trial given admission of non-disclosure that one of the issues was negligent disclosure. If your honor applied cross-reference to statute, punishing negligent disclosure under espionage, the guideline would be 2m3.4 and guideline would be 12.
Walton: Let's deal with the easier of the three issues. Anything the govt wants to add to false statements. Govt acknowledges that is the toughest argument to make, it would be inappropriate to cross-reference. In reference to perjury and obstruction offenses, there is different language used in guidelines related to those two offenses. While I appreciate that in the guidelines those are treated similarly, not identically, the language suggests that the perjury guideline is not as broad.
[Well, Walton is thinking really seriously about cross-referencing]
Walton: Let's look at obstruction. I've looked at Defense filing and cases, while none of the cases may be factually directly on point, it does seem that [names a bunch of circuits] have all indicated that you don't look at weight of evidence, you only make assessment whether there was an appropriate investigation and if that determination is made, all circuit courts seem to indicate cross-referencing is mandatory.
9:35
Walton: [reading from circuit decision] It makes no difference whether the case is proveable.
Jeffress: Queen, Arias, do suggest what your honor says. I would point out that there was no question--there was a question whether the defendant had participated in underlying offense, and some cases where nobody had been convicted. In each one of those cases, there was an offense charged or clearly established by the evidence. We do not argue here that defense has to commit offense. But in none of those cases did the courts face a situation such as we have here, where no one was ever charged, no one pled guilty, and two, the govt didn't establish the commission of an offense.
Walton: Your position would seem to promote someone engaging in obstruction and therefore impeding govt's ability to prove, [Reggie's not buying this]
Jeffress: that's not the case. [Jeffress emphasizes the "for an offense" language in all the cases] The problem with taking the cases to the extreme that the govt wants to take them is that a defendant who is tried for plain obstruction, is to be sentenced based simply on what he was told when he came before GJ. Then a defendant who is found to commit perjury if a murder was suicide.
Walton: What if you can never establish whether there was a murder or not, and the person impeded the ability to make that assessment. There's a suggestion that at some point Plame was in a position where her job was classified.
Jeffress: [laughs] that is something I'll need to address when we get to other issues. If the defendant's lies actually impeded the successful prosecution of
Walton: A defendant who was under investigation relating to missing person,
Jeffress: in that event, the case would fall under commentary under guidelines where defendant prevent establishment of case [kind of like this one, Jeffress] Let's says someone is brought in on plot to blow up Brooklyn Bridge, which turns out to be a teenage prank. if someone lies about knowing that teenage prank, he'll be put away for a very long tim.
Walton: He knew the nature of the investigation he was obstructing.
Jeffress: The intent argument is contrary to what was established in this case. The only offenses we're talking about here deal with GJ testimony.
Libby is siting half facing the front of the courtroom.
Jeffress: the jury has never made a finding that IIPA was committed, and the facts don't support this case. Nobody has said that Libby or the witnesses who testify were aware Plame was covert. As to the issue of covert.
Walton: is that something the jury has to determine? Does the jury have to make a factual determination? I don't think that's the law.
Fitz: for purposes of sentencing guideliens we thought it appropriate that he disclosed info on covert agent, he was given information concerning a covert agent. [this is a distinction between whether he normally would have known Plame's identity or whether he just stumbled on it]
Jeffress: what IIPA requires is that agent has to have served abroad in past five years. We were given no discovery other than statement prepared by CIA stating she had traveled abroad on temporary duty, TDY, there's never been a case, any discussion whether that
Walton: [Getting animated] I think here they have a legitimate concern about this info being disclosed. CIA contacts justice. Justice goes about to seek to investigate that. They make inquiries of high govt official and he prevents them from investigating that case. You seem to be suggesting that cross-referencing doesn't apply. [He's pissed]
Jeffress; they need to establish there was an offense.
9:47
Jeffress: to have defendant sentenced as if there was an offense of murder is irrational. The govt admits that. We're talking about the rationality of the guideliens. We submit to your honor that it is fundamentally unfair, in a case in which defendant ... it's not just that there was no proof at trial, the fact is that there were tons of circumstances, Harlow's conversation with Novak, Harlow doesn't say she's covert. Handwritten notes of interview in which he told investigators that he inquired and Plame not undercover. State memo, which says she's WMD managerial type. YOu have fact--or at least published reports--that she was a covert agent that she was brought back in 1998 after her cover feared to have been blown. Witnesses willing to come that Mr WIlson himself revealed his wife's place of employment with almost total strangers. And besides that, the number of people who were told is inconsistent with, as Armitage said in a published report, with the way CIA treats covert agents. [Actually, Armitage talked about the INR memo, whcih is not CIA, but facts don't matter] We're still in the position where we don't know if she was covert. It is fundamentally unfair when we try a case, we don't get discovery, we exclude it.
Walton: I don't think we can equate relevance of my ruling wrt culpability if you felt that info was important for your client to obtain fair sentencing. I would have entertained that, but I got no request as it relates to sentencing.
9:53
Jeffress: if you honor concludes that factual finding on that matter needs to be done, certainly we'd like to see that, it never occured to me CIA would be willing to disclose that, and the govt would be willing to share it.
[Jeffress has fucked up, and he's trying to hide the fact that he now realizes he should have asked for that]
Walton: I looked at Arias case, it seems a clear statement of court's perspective that
Jeffress: What court is talking about is whether it was provable against defendant.
Walton: they didn't say that. And if you look at the other, it looks at what GJ was investigating. Otherwise obstructors of justice would benefit from obstruction that prevented govt from investigating.
Jeffress; nobody claims that Libby prevented them from finding an obstruction
Walton: No one may ever know--and that's what the instruction goes to--they don't want people to benefit from obstructing an investigation to prevent this from ever being rpoved.
[Jeffress goes back to his teenager lying about blowing up Brooklyn Bridge again, but Walton points out that if the teenager told the truth about it.]
Walton: Further comments, govt?
Fitz: I think your analysis is exactly right. In arias: No court of which we are aware would permit discovery into evidence behind it. In McQueen they said, when it came to whether cross-reference applied, claim is meritless, in other words, all that mattered is that he's indicted for it. If a jury finds someone innocent of charges that were brought, the guideline is applied. If a jury finds someone innocent, but accessory applies, but if underlying offense isn't tried to jury, you also make accessory. Another case, they literally said whether he used flashlight matters--notwithstanding a factual finding by jury, the enhancement should apply. Your honor is exactly right that policy reasons justify it--you shouldn't reward someone for obstructing justice by being so good at obstructing that they were sensitive. [Fitz now rehearsing the evidence that supports the argument witnesses were concerned about the sensitivity of Plame's ID] This case is actually stronger, because in other cases, the people didn't know what was being investigated, here, Libby was told what was being investigated.
Jeffress: Let's look at the Arias case, if you look at that, they're talking about whether the defendant participated.
10:02 Going to new thread now
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
fitz!
Fitz!! Jane!! Marcy!!
FITZ !!!
Arguing sentencing guidelines. Walton says it’s 15-21 months, Fitz says no — cross-referencing charges should be held to be applicable which should mean 30-37 months.
Justice!
Bonamici!
Will Judge Walton throw The Book at Libby hard enough to hurt the Leaker hiding behind him?
Firepups wanna know! I’ve just made my sixth consecutive monthly contribution of $25.07 to support FireDogLake’s history-making Live-blogging, insightful articles and the best commentarial analysis in the Blogosphere - and it feels great!
Please join Jane and Marcy for Libby Sentencing Live-blogging from Judge Walton’s DC Courtroom Right Now!
And Please Donate Today!
Had to reboot, where’s the gabbly?
CNN: Jeffrey Toobin says Martha Stewart case good example of likely sentence (6 months served, 6 months house arrest), leans towards lighter side of sentence.
Jeffress is arguing this. Looks like he’s going to be up for Team Libby rather than Wells. That’s smart.
Whoa! Fitz came charging right out of the gate!
madness madness madness!
Teach him a lesson he won’t forget, Judge Walton!!!
Rayne @ 8
that sucks!
no stream on this, right?
This is one of the things fdl does best. Thanks, Jane and Marcy. Thank you very much!
Walton says scope of perjury guideline is not as broad as obstruction guideline. Fitz agrees but says thinks both apply.
ww @ 15
You are in the stream. This is where the action is.
And no, the courthouse is not broadcasting this.
Arguing sentencing guidelines. Walton says it’s 15-21 months
Crap. This is no way to start the day.
Elliott @ 14
That was Jeralyn’s analysis as well.
Rayne @ 9
Ya but Stewart’s crime was orders of magnitude less serious!!
“You are in the stream. This is where the action is.”
lol, thats why I’m here. =)
Walton says the 11th, 9th, 1st and 4th circuit have indicated that you don’t look at the weight of the evidence and the underlying offense in assessing cross-referencing, you only make an assessment as to whether an appropriate investigation has being done, and all the courts seem to agree that cross-referencing is mandatory.
So what would happen if Libby started singing after the sentencing? Even though I believe he was an integral part of outing Plame and should be held accountable, I do feel bad for his kids and wife.
What would happen if he started telling the truth NOW?
Fitz
“Truth is the engine of our Judicial System.”
Please Please Please
Thank you for the continuing Libby Show.
Deep breaths, everybody.
Jane, Christy, Marcy!
dakine01 @ 20
Bad vibes everywhere this AM
Toobin is in Scooter’s/Cheney’s camp. What a joke Toobin is. He does not believe in the law although he professes to be an attorney.
I have a high suspicion all of a sudden that the feds indicted Jefferson yesterday so that would be the top news instead of the Libby sentence. Call me cynical!
EPU’d:
Neil @ 150
YES! Marcy, you must.
That’s just too good an idea to pass up.
.
Emptywheel @ zed-1: “Fitz is wearing his favorite seer-suckery suit and bright blue tie.”
This tie? Pic
Toobin is a “Celebrity” Attorney. He must protect those in the celebrity class.
Jenna works for the court and is about the sweetest person alive.
FLPeach @ 30
Watch for a terror arrest or vid from OSB
FLPeach @ 29
And you’re right!
If only walton would take into consideration what a putz scooter is, He’d get 10 years.
FLPeach @ 29
Nope, realistic. They always do that.
“makes no difference whether the underlying offense could be proven or not.” (Walton quoting from another case)
Jeffress saying that no underlying offense charged here, as they did in the cases he thinks are prescident.
FLPeach @ 28
at least for the Faux News crowd, this way Fox can ignore Irve’s sentencing or at least counter it with Corrupt Democrat
What is cross-referencing?
S.O.S. from MA @ 38
Nope, realistic. They always do that.
Olbermann did his update of the Nexus of Politics and Terror last night. Next one should be Nexus of DOJ corruption and bright shiny objects.
C&L has an Olberman vid of 15 just such instances; linking terror news releases with otherwise bag news for the admin.
Elliott @ 39
Exactly!!!
Folks, just a reminder: please, for the love of the servers and to keep Marcy’s new thread starting to a minimum, please think before you throw out a one-liner or a nonsensical comment or shout out. Thanks.
Also, no comments about violence or corporal punishment or torture or prison rape — not only is that sort of thing in poor taste, but it will not be tolerated.
Of course Jefferson indictment was handed down as a distraction to the Libby sentencing. One thing we now know about the Justice Department is how far it has been politicized to serve the interests of the Republicans Party.
RevDeb @ 40
that’s worth seeing! it’s over at Crooks & Liars.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 45
come over to gabbly and run your mouth
http://gabbly.com/http://www.firedoglake.com/
ps, not you Christy
Much better said, RevDeb
help, ??? cross referencing, which way does this cut?? what is it?
Hmm. That sounds like a good start.
“A number of circuits: cross-referencing mandatory”
Oh, yeah, baby!!
So far, sounding good…
KathieinMN — Cross referencing is the adding in and/or taking down of enhancements or departures for sentencing. Enhancements add more time, departures take it away. They are arguing about where Libby should fall as the baseline area for the sentencing guidelines calculation from which the judge will start in his considerations today — this is really, really common as the start to one of these hearings — Team Fitz is asking for a higher bump, Team Libby for a lower one.
Jeffress — jury was only told that they were investigating obstruction. They have made no findings of intent by Mr. Libby to out agent under IPAA and facts would not support that argument.
Keep crashing, somthing tries to animate off the page?
Christy, the IE crash you discussed…
My hope- 3.5 years for the counts, plus maximum applied sentence towards probation.
Thus, when other charges surface on discovery in looking at Cheney, he faces a longer sentence.
Mr.Murder @ 55
Try Firefox.
blueheron @ 49
Blue, cross-referencing is what Fitz is urging the Court to do in order to apply the tougher sentencing guidelines for the offenses he was investigating — Intelligence Identities Protection Ac and Espionage Act.
RawStory.com is reporting that Senator Craig Thomas (R-wyoming) has died from leukemia at the age of 74. His replacement will be selected by the state’s Democratic governor from a list of three chosen by the state Repub party.
RawStory.com (one of my favorite news sites) is also showing an article which says Frank Luntz (Republican word man) followed the Dem debate with a Dem group and they tracked the candidates — in the end they showed John Edwards winning (narrowly I’d guess). Is that to be believed? Who knows.
[Mod Note; To help keep the FDL servers running smoothly, please remain on topic during the Libby sentencing liveblog threads. Thank you.]
I think difference between 15 months and 37 months is largely academic for Libby is going to get pardoned in November 2008 anyway. What is important is that he is sent to jail in a week’s time so that at least he spends some time in the slammer.
Jeffress arguing that plame didn’t serve abroad over past five years, but they weren’t given anything but a statement from CIA that she traveled abroad and they weren’t allowed discovery.
Rayne @ 9
Because non-material perjury regarding a stock trade is equivalent to perjury in the service of covering up the Vice President’s and one’s own actions in outing a CIA agent?
Christ, where do these people come from?
.
For those folks who are using IE, there is some sort of interface problem with the ActiveX control that is causing problems today. Turn off your activeX componant, and that may solve the problem — that has worked for me today. HTH!
I just gotta say “Fitz!”
I am a student at Univ. of Colorado, I am 19 years old and my mother has convinced me to ask the question I have been asking her for quite some time about this trial.
Can anyone explain to me why there are people across our nation who get sentenced to years in prison for far less serious crimes than Scooter Libby or the others who outed Valerie Plame will get. I am trying to understand our justice system.
Do I need to just accept that our justice system is unfair and seriously flawed? Is this what most people have accepted in our country?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 52
Thanks, Christy!!!
Walton:
If the CIA believes that one of its agents was inappropriately outed, and have sufficient concern that there was a problem in this regard, and I think they do have, and they contact the justice department, who make inquiries of high official who lies, then it applies.
Oh man, Walton is PISSED.
dakine01 @ 20
and then he’ll be pardonned at the end, in any case, to have his record expunged…
so he can go his merry way as a a highly-reimbursed member of many distinguished corporations, including Carlysle???
ya reckon???
.
Strong circumstantial evidence of a casualty result from outing(star on the memorial wall).
Jeffress says that to have the defendent sentenced for obstructing a crime that was never proven is irrational.
RC @ 57
RC, if the longer sentence is imposed it’ll make a big difference in public perception, because the stories tonight and tomorrow will be “Judge Lowers the Boom on Scooter Libby.”
Do I need to just accept that our justice system is unfair and seriously flawed? Is this what most people have accepted in our country?
yes.
Alana @ 62
No one has yet been convicted of outing her; Libby’s conviction is for obstruction of justice.
Jane Hamsher @ 64
OK, that got my pulse rate up !
EW BRINGS US LIBBY LIBBY LIBBY
SITTING AT THE TABLE TABLE TABLE
AND I SEE IT SET IT SEE IT
THROUGH MY CABLE CABLE CABLE
Jane Hamsher @ 64
. . . but Victoria Toensing said
IANAL, but if the IIPA-charge is still unresolved due to the Obstruction, then Scooter should have the cross-referenced time added to his sentence.
Otherwise, Scooter’s ’skinny’ firewall will have succeeded in de-railing the main effort of the entire investigation. To sentence him on a more narrow basis would be a highly selective ‘looking away’ from all the relevant issues.
Would I be correct in thinking Walton has already come to a conclusion and he’s just looking for arguments to validate that conclusion, to make sure he’s on the right track? Sounds like Scooter is going to definitely do time.
Jeffress: there was no proof at trial as to whether she had covert status under IIPA. Harlow doesn’t say she was covert with Novak and says later she wasn’t.
KathieinMN @ 40
Cross-referencing to the charges under investigation that were blocked by the perjury / obstruction.
JGabriel @ 59
Exactly. I had the same reaction, posted earlier.
Jane Hamsher @ 65
I think Walton has had enough of this particularly wankerous talking point.
Jane Hamsher @ 58
“Service abroad” not abroad who gives a rats ass. Cheney and his criminal team outed an undercover agent whose job it was was to find WMD’s. Crime in Italy (Niger Documents). They undermined National Security, Brewster Jennings is no more (I assume) Who gives a “Cheney” whether she was presently ’serving abroad” or not.
They undermined National Security by outing Plame.
Alana @ 62
basically, keed, you don’t have any choice in the matter…
the ‘justice’ system in this country exists mainly to keep the proles in line; if occasionally a member of the elite gets caught up in it, it is malleable enough to permit them a lotta slack…
money, as they say, doesn’t talk, it bellows…
.
Jane at 64 — Walton has dealt with a LOT of classified amterial cases in the DC circuit. And he also sat through every damn minuteof the CIPA hearings. He and all the attorneys there know exactly what was included in all of the voluminous material that was not discussed publicly. And Libby’s Team ought to have known better than to try and mitigate on the outing of a covert CIA agent by her own damned government.
Walton is right to be pissed. They have taken the “not responsible for the consequences of my actions” line too far on this. And that is not going to be helpful for them in terms of sentencing. Contrition is always the way to go in these hearings — anything less is likely to just piss off the judge. But Team Libby has been going for a public PR strategy and not a sentencing argument. I think it is going to come back and bite them.
Libby’s folks seem to be saying: Why trust the word of the CIA?
-GSD
Jane Hamsher @ 77
I thought they weren’t allowed to bring this up in the trial?
Catch 22?
Citizen Alana:
“Do I need to just accept that our justice system is unfair and seriously flawed?”
Yes dear sister, but the of a blind and equitable
IDEA of a blind and equitable system of justice lives on with us here and in the hearts of millions of poor and disenfranchised.
KEEP THE FAITH BUT WORK FOR A BETTER WORLD!!
Alana @ 62
welcome to a fellow buffalo!
my daughter just finished her
freshman year there, as well!
i hate to seem cynical, here,
but the rule is called “capital
punishment” — that is,
those with all the “capital“
rarely, if ever, get all the
“p u n i s h m e n t. . .”
however, that is why we’ve gathered
here, today, in the hopes that this will
be an exception to my admittedly rather
cynical “rule”. . .
my bet: 33 months, of which he’ll
serve about 16 months. . .
welcome!
Jane Hamsher @ 68
it wasn’t proven who as a matter of litigation, but that Plame was outed is an obvious fact.
I’ll say this in defense of Libby. He’s an exemplary liar.
Alana @ 62
is our justice system unfair and seriously flawed? - sadly, yes.
but - not completely… there are many people working hard to correct injustices.
never, never accept injustice.
A note on the process…
The first issue Walton is handling is whether “cross-referencing” (i.e. considering the severity of the crime being investigated) is appropriate. The references to 15-21 months and 30-37 months establish the alternative baselines depending on whether “cross-referencing” is found to be required (if it is, the baseline is 30-37 months).
Walton then declares that precedent on cross-referencing in pure perjury cases are ambiguous at best, but that in obstruction cases there is clear precedent that requires cross-referencing.
Alana @ 80
sorry that was my comment not my youngest daughter Alana.
Jeffress using this to argue in front of the press, not teh Judge.
Walton just said that if Jeffress had asked for government to submit info as to whether Plame was covert (for the purpose of sentencing) he would have probably ruled in their favor. Jeffress said it frankly never occured to him that the CIA and gov’t would do that, and assumes he would have to make it under CIPA.
Jane Hamsher @ 67
There was a crime committed. Libby made it impossible to find the perpetrator.
Jane Hamsher @ 67
How can one prove a crime if the investigation of it has been successfully obstructed :)
GSD @ 83
That has been Cheney’s MO since the Cold War-so of course Scoots thinks the CIA sucks too.
Is that Toe-’stink’ I smell coming from Jeffress? We must remember that Reggie was pissed at the trial because Scoots didn’t take the stand. Maybe that is stuck in his craw. Man, I hope so.
Jane Hamsher @ 93
(Inner Jeffries) “D’oh!!!!”
yellowdogD @ 94
I made the same point in my letter to the Judge.
Jane or Marcy -
Do you see any of the jurors in the courtroom?
I am just hoping that Mr. Libby is incarcerated pending appeal. And pardoning Libby while he’s jail might be fun.
bg @ 92
And I bet Judge Walton won’t like that much. Scooter just might be about to get what he deserves.
Several Murders occurred after the Plame outing on people in the oil industry formerly stationed abroad in business capacities.
Two names. Todd Staheli for Shell in Brazil as part of the emerging OPEC influence in South America.
Paul Johnson in Saudi Abrabia who worked for Lockheed Martin.
Fitz says Walton’s analysis is exactly right.
2 Things: Why is Walton pissed?
Can anyone explain to me why there are people across our nation who get sentenced to years in prison for far less serious crimes than Scooter Libby or the others who outed Valerie Plame will get. I am trying to understand our justice system.
Do I need to just accept that our justice system is unfair and seriously flawed? Is this what most people have accepted in our country?
Yes, some of the system is terribly flawed, esp. where the factors of race & wealth come into play. Imperfect, in a word. I think many people became deeply cynical after the Gore case in 2000 where the Supremes were truly partisan and distorted law and precedent. It seems to me that eras of injustices have ebb and flow. We are in a very cynical period because the highest levels are being trashed. You are young and can hold on to hope and work ot make a difference like a lot of the people here.
nolo @ 86
Thanks for responding to my question. ( I am nervous), but my mother has convinced me to participate. It is really discouraging to think that so many people fully accept that our judicial system is corrupt.
I went part time to U/C this year, working part time also. Studying Enviromental Science (great program).
Wonder if Judith Miller is watching today?
The above two names, and circumstantial confirmation via the DC star, could weigh in on sentencing.
More than like one could assume the Judge looked that info up in closed sessions, classified, probably as evidence not submitted in court, to the point it’s possible neither lawyer was empowered to view it for this trial. (Fitz is probably well aware).