A few days ago, Joss Whedon had a post that has haunted me ever since I read it after I got back from vacation. The post was initially about a horrifying video that had been taken of a young woman in Iraq being beaten to death by her family for daring to fall in love with a boy outside her sect. (WARNING: If you do click on the video link in Joss' post or the one in Digby's, it is very graphic, violent and disturbing.) But it went beyond the video to what it means that someone thought this deadly beating would be entertainment, and then takes it several steps beyond even there:
I try to think how we got here. The theory I developed in college (shared by many I’m sure) is one I have yet to beat: Womb Envy. Biology: women are generally smaller and weaker than men. But they’re also much tougher. Put simply, men are strong enough to overpower a woman and propagate. Women are tough enough to have and nurture children, with or without the aid of a man. Oh, and they’ve also got the equipment to do that, to be part of the life cycle, to create and bond in a way no man ever really will. Somewhere a long time ago a bunch of men got together and said, “If all we do is hunt and gather, let’s make hunting and gathering the awesomest achievement, and let’s make childbirth kinda weak and shameful.” It’s a rather silly simplification, but I believe on a mass, unconscious level, it’s entirely true. How else to explain the fact that cultures who would die to eradicate each other have always agreed on one issue? That every popular religion puts restrictions on women’s behavior that are practically untenable? That the act of being a free, attractive, self-assertive woman is punishable by torture and death? In the case of this upcoming torture-porn, fictional. In the case of Dua Khalil, mundanely, unthinkably real. And both available for your viewing pleasure....Now those of you who frequent this site are, in my wildly biased opinion, fairly evolved. You may hear nothing new here. You may be way ahead of me. But I can’t contain my despair, for Dua Khalil, for humanity, for the world we’re shaping. Those of you who have followed the link I set up know that it doesn’t bring you to a video of a murder. It brings you to a place of sanity, of people who have never stopped asking the question of what is wrong with this world and have set about trying to change the answer. Because it’s no longer enough to be a decent person. It’s no longer enough to shake our heads and make concerned grimaces at the news. True enlightened activism is the only thing that can save humanity from itself. I’ve always had a bent towards apocalyptic fiction, and I’m beginning to understand why. I look and I see the earth in flames. Her face was nothing but red.
All I ask is this: Do something. Try something. Speaking out, showing up, writing a letter, a check, a strongly worded e-mail. Pick a cause – there are few unworthy ones....
A number of other blogs have picked up the discussion on this, but it was this post from Digby which hit the issue squarely for me:
I think what is most amazing to me is that this doesn't take place in some tent in the middle of the desert or a stone hut. These people are not dressed in tribal garb --- they are wearing jeans and t-shirts and the whole thing takes place in a street in what appears to be a modern town. It isn't the Moqtada al Sadr brigade or Al Qaeda extremists ---it's not part of the civil war although according to the article, many Iraqis are trying to rationalize it as such. This is nothing but barbaric patriarchal violence perpetrated by our alleged allies, the Kurds, toward a teen-age girl...There are a lot of manifestations of this particular human organizational style, some much more sophisticated and stylized. The violence becomes more ritualized and the humiliation takes other forms but underneath it all, the same impulse to dominate drives a fair number of people of all cultures. It's just a matter of degree.
This is the reason why it's so important to preserve our secular, reason-based constitution and fight against this horror of government endorsed torture and indefinite imprisonment. It is a very, very thin line between civilization and barbarism and every step we take away from the rule of law is a step toward becoming that primitive mob of killers. After all, I'm sure they felt justified too. (emphasis mine)
I stumbled across this piece in the WaPo, regarding some pushback in Saudi Arabia, by some women who have found a way to express themselves as individuals without incurring the wrath of the ever-patrolling religious police. (Yes, I did say Saudi Arabia and religious police. Where have you been?) I think this is brilliant.
"You cannot separate what is happening with the abaya from other issues related to women, including women's appearance in the workforce and having more say in their affairs," said Saad al-Sowayan, a professor of folklore and anthropology at King Saud University in Riyadh, the capital.Until recently, the abaya was a plain black robe that women kept by the door and wore like a coat over their clothes when they left the house.
Today, abayas are often stylish, personalized wraps that women enjoy being seen in, said Thana Addas, an abaya designer. Addas's creations, many made with material from international fashion houses such as Roberto Cavalli, Burberry and Fendi and decorated with Swarovski crystals, can sell for more than $1,000....
One of the things the article references is that there has been a renewed questioning of the Wahhabi sect of Islam in the wake of 9/11 among a number of classes in Saudi Arabia, because so many of the hijackers came from the Kingdom. The result has been that a number of younger women have begun to push the boundaries a bit and find a way to express their inner selves with their outer garments. This is really quite ingenious, I think, but I'd love to hear the opinions of some of our readers who have lived in the Middle East on what opening this particular public door might mean. (And I'm remembering the Karen Hughes "listening tour" offensive -- and I do mean offensive -- and am shaking my head all over again.)
Saudi women have always been notoriously expressive behind closed doors in terms of clothing and assertiveness, at least in the upper classes, but this appears to be filtering down through the various economic strata. See, for example, this piece in the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, wherein young Saudis attempt to get around the dating restrictions via bluetooth technology and texting at coffee shops based on a glimpse of ankle and the technological means of flirting. No matter the restrictions placed from the outside, somehow human nature finds a way, I suppose.
As with any religious, political or philosophical text, the belief may be used to lift up an individual and empower them, or to gain power for one's self by trying to put those same people under the thumb of an ordering system that one controls from above. The tension between these is the fight in which we are all engaged on a daily basis: what are the terms of our social contract and, once those are realized, do they enable growth and/or forward motion or do they chafe as they pull us backward and away from individual freedom? For women, especially, and not just in Muslim cultures, those questions are raised all too frequently, as Whedon and Digby both discuss. It is often a few steps forward and then a few steps back, as women in Iran and Afghanistan, and here in the US of A, can all attest. We've all read the stories about women teaching other women in secret in Afghanistan in the Taliban days and even secreting banned books in any number of cultures so that they can learn. I always ask myself when I read these whether I would have the courage to do the same in the face of the potential penalties to myself and my family, and the answer always comes back that I'm not sure -- I'd like to hope so, but how can you know?
The key, I suppose, for all of us individually is the ever-evolving struggle. And, in that, the modernization of the abayas in Saudi Arabia is a step that I applaud. Individuality is something to celebrate. So, in the name of our sisters in the Kingdom today, and in memory of Dua Khalil, take a little time to express yourself. Because the freedom to do so should never, ever be taken for granted.
(Photo of abaya and phone bling via happylovesme.)
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hi there!
Morning Tommy Yum. :)
Hey Christy.
Can’t watch the stoning video-just won’t do it.
quatro
Kevster at 3 — I only made it through about a minute. And I’ve seen enough autopsy photos in my day fro violent acts…and I really barely made it that long. That this was intended to be entertaining? Beyond disgusting. Sometimes I wonder how far beyond barbarism we will ever, ever get.
Early societies were based “Mother Earth”, women are the source of life. Ancient Crete Minoan’s were a matriarchal. Navajo Nation is also matriarchal.
It was that mystery of life, that they could not understand it or control it. That is the whole of it.
Christy @5:
Barbarism of various kinds is seemingly part of the human condition and we know many many examples of it. All the more reason for civilized societies to reign in violent impulses. Religious extremism gets blamed for a lot of this violence but it’s my view that religion is a cover for pre-existent violent tendencies. Religious leaders can help tremendously, however, by removing the religious excuse for violence and condemning it wholeheartedly.
Interesting bit about Saudi women. The human spirit always finds a way..
Whedon’s brilliant… but I have to disagree with his use of the word “we” throughout the piece… most human beings are decent and couldn’t conceive of doing what those men did to that girl… it’s part local culture (and I use that term loosely) and part religion/superstition/xenophobia (they’re all the same as far as I’m concerned) that led them to undertake such a sick act… sexism exists throughout the world, but in both directions… interesting, female “circumcision” comes from basically the same spiritual background… what is it with the sex and violence preoccupation of some?
Kevster at 7 — That was what I found so particularly brilliant about the shift in abayas. There is an application of the letter of the law, but bending it to individual spirit - and I just loved that.
I couldn’t watch it either. Hard enough to even read the description.
I used to think that, either because of age or circumstance, that I was getting overly sensitive to violent entertainment. Now I believe that my response is the correct one.
Our culture has, for generations, inoculated us against a rational response to brutality masquerading as entertainment. Little by little, we’ve been desensitized, and that numbness is accompanied by increasing doses of violent, degrading images and ideas.
I had my own awful epiphany when watching Pulp Fiction. People laughed at the scene where a man’s brains are accidently blown out in the back of a car. I felt like I’d been pushed through a mirror (to borrow from CHS’s recent imagery) and was relegated to cultural observer status.
This is pretty silly:
A better approach would be the socio-biological point of view. Males and female have different and competing reproductive strategies. Males, ideally, want to maximize their offspring, females to maximize the success of the children they have. The resources to accomplish these competing demands are limited. Much of civilization can be seen as the working out of these two competing interests.
On Truthout’s site this morning:
Repairing the Damage Done
I really like the way that the Saudi women have taken something that is supposed to oppress them and turn it into fashion. Nothing like taking the rules and using them to piss of the people who made the rules. Wonderful! Fabulous! Awesome!
Wow, very powerful, and very true. Great find, Christy.
lisadawn at 12 — Exactly — I found that sort of cheeky in your face use of the rule so fun, and so subversive at the same time. Truly, it is a brilliant way to make a statement about yourself in that context.
lisadawn82 @ 13
Around where I live we have a lot of Somali people. I really love the fabrics, they’re just beautiful. Rich, vibrant colors and delicate patterns. It’s a visual feast whenever I take the bus to go somewhere.
I am far too depressed already having just given up my registration in the Dem. party. That’s two Dem. defectors from this household, and it’s taking every ounce of my chi to stay centered, and not allow my consciousness to sink to the depths of vile disgust.
Even if it weren’t such an all time low of lows in this bogus democracy, I still would not be able to watch this……….I’ve already heard enough about it to know it would be planted in my brain, and it’s all I can do to numb my way through the day as it is.
Your post was timely and very important. How many woman out there have had the exact same musings, I wonder. I have since I was about four years old.
reading about Dua Khalil (i haven’t watched the video - and don’t intend to) immediately brought to my mind the impuse, in our own culture, to condemn women to death (from botched abortions) by making safe abortions illegal.
does anyone else see an analogy here?
The problem isn’t with women, it’s with men. Look at the incarceration ratios. Look at the way in which we casually accept violence from males. And of course celebrate it in the media.
Our culture is sick. It accepts from males a level of violence that any healthy culture would find intolerable. And when men aren’t committing violence, they are abandoning their partners and children.
We need to challenge the manner in which we raise and nurture men and boys. We need to overcome that most self-righteous statement, “It’s MY family, mind your own business.” We need to stop accepting and celebrating violence.
I realize Whedon’s “What’s wrong with women” was rhetorical - there’s nothing wrong with women, of course. The problem is with men: most men are NOT men, they are overgrown testosterone-poisoned boys, boys who were abused and emotionally neglected as children. Those man/boys need healing, and we need to start focusing on raising the next generation of boys with love and care, and to reject violence.
katymine @ 6
I’m glad you brought that up. Our hunting/gathering ancestors worshipped the moon (the goddess) by which they hunted. I think when agrarian societies became more commonplace, they switched to the sun and to a male figure as the source of power. Although goddesses, in one form or another, still existed, their stature was diminished. I’ve never understood exactly why, however. That’s for the anthropologists to explain. Anyone here who has more information, I’d love to hear what you have to say. Express yourself!
Pach at 14 — I found the Whedon piece the day I got home from vacation, along with the Digby discussion of the same issue a day or so later. But I’ve been struggling to find a voice on the issue the past few days even as it was pushing me to be written. I spotted the Saudi story yesterday evening and something clicked. I’m glad you liked it.
selise @ 18
Oh of course. It’s all about power and control. Some men fear the power that women have to give birth so they seek to control that.
It’s always about power.
Speaking of expressing yourself…From The New Yorker: Many Republicans no longer interested in Rove’s theories.
Albatross at 19 — Be careful with that. I happen to be married to a man that does not fit that description, not by a long shot. We should not stereotype this as an “all men versus all women” issue, because it is not. What it is to me is an empowerment versus disempowerment issue — it just manifests itself in this particular context with women. That isn’t to say that women don’t have to deal with a lot of issues simply because of gender — we do — but I don’t think stereotyping all men is any better than demeaning all women simply because of their gender, and I do think we need to be careful of that. I tried to be careful of it in writing this piece — because I happen to be married to a man who is not only mindful but also very empowering to those around him, regardless of gender, and that needs to be celebrated wherever and in whomever we find it.
Education and awareness about the oppression of women and others is critical for the evolution of all humankind. Beating and killing women due to the violation of the standards is outrageous and criminal.
Turning women into sex objects in the states ( more of this the last 15 years than when I was young) is also a very serious form of oppression and manipulation. Young women in the U.s. are especially under a great deal of pressure from the marketing industry.
Education education..Unite Unite…Change
USA Today’s sobering account:
Taxpayers on the hook for $59 trillion
If the United States government prepared a balance sheet in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles for governmental entities, I wonder what amount of assets (stated at cost) would appear on it.
Mandrake @ 20
Try reading The Chalice and the Blade or any of Gimbutas’ works. Note, not all anthropologists agree with their theories.
Jesus spent a lot of energy railing against divorce. Men could “marry” as many women as they wished and dispose of them at will- leaving humans who had no accepted way to fend for themselves penniless.
Christianity over the years has evolved- the prohibitions against loaning money at interest that was much heralded in Shakespeare’s “The Merchant of Venice” went away- someone found a way to get around the rule and capitalism was born.
Many have been saying that Islam is in need of an overhaul- and that appears to be true- of course they have their “fundamentalists” who will resist any change with violence if necessary- so it won’t be easy- but it IS necessary.
Perhaps there is a way to offer support to the portions of the faithful who are looking for a better way.
kathleen at 25 — There is a sobering cautionary tale about that very issue in today’s WaPo sports section, about a high school pole vaulter who happens to be an attractive girl, and who is now being subjected to a lot of unwanted attention because of a wave of internet postings about her — completely based on a photo taken at a track meet.
it is important to note this young woman was Yazidi a pre islamic sect/tribe. not that there aren’t honor killings and other forms of oppression against women in islamic cultures -(and others for that matter - don’t even start reading about India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh) but read the 1 page wiki about her people - also recall 23 Yazidi men were executed on a bus in March and many believe it was in retribution for her murder
Yazidi - wiki
and no to those not fully caffeinated am I in any way rationalizing her brutal, unwarranted death
As many people have noted over the years, civilization has always been a thin veneer. It seems to grow even thiner as the number of people in a crowd grows. I’ve wondered at times if it tied up with pheromones and is hardwired into our biology.
Albatross @ 19
i’m gonna disagree here… too many confounding factors to make that conclusion.
usually, when there is an institutionalized power hierarchy, we’re (almost?) all suspectable to the moral corruption. i’m thinking, not just of the stanford prison experiment (all young men), but also experments like milgram’s - i don’t think there was a difference between men and women (am i wrong on that? need to do more reading).
anyway, rather than blaming whole groups of people, i’d rather work on the systemic cultural issues.
p.s. amazing post, christy. you make it hard to pull myself away… but i gotta get some stuff done today!
I don’t buy Whedon’s theory, womb envy etc.. I do believe this idea of debasement of human life, our desensitization towards violence, the bleed-over into entertainment, etc..
But I’d hate to think that such an idea (that of a wholesale war against the female sex, being waged by the male sex) would ever take hold. We’re in sad shape if it does.
A more accurate description of the problem, in my opinion, is that the world is full of a$$holes & full of the sh*t they drop.
[didn’t watch the subject video, and won’t. My way of not being part of it in any way, shape or form.]
Nothing in the world is as dangerous as a male who feels powerless. Whether it’s a primitive response to outsize danger or a testosterone deficit, I couldn’t say. But from domestic abuse to horrific scenes like this video to the war in Iraq (started by a president who was a failure before he took office) the common thread seems to me to be a violent response, usually visited on someone even less powerful, from males who feel profoundly inadequate. I’d venture to guess that religion amplifies the response because it offers both the protection and reinforcement of a large group of the like-minded.
cbl — I meant to note that a bit more clearly in my piece. Thanks much for the clarification for everyone.
Ahh but the power of the human spirit though.
Never underestimate it.
Oppression brings out an individuals determination and creativity.The cloaks are an excellent example.
There are always nonconformists in the herd somewhere, I know I’m one.
*G*
I happen to be married to a man who is not only mindful but also very empowering to those around him, regardless of gender, and that needs to be celebrated wherever and in whomever we find it.
It is not all that uncommon in our culture. Although there is much work left to be done, in the western world we have come a long way.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 24
That’s because you are both k-selectors.
The issue has it’s roots in the competing needs of males vs females. The trunk and branches are social and cultural, but the root is biology. In the long run the Y chromosome will probably disappear anyway.
Christy - We recived some additional info on Du’a’s murder from Joanne Peyton of the Campaign to Stop Honor Killing in the comments to my post which ran while you were away: Get the Story Right There’s also info there on the Campaign and ways people can help - as well as some very good analysis of honor killings from several women who are very involved in the fight - and a great discussion amongst our readers that night of culture and religion.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 24
Well, insofar as I am a married man myself, and would likely be described by my spouse as you have described yours, certainly there are exceptions. But look at the numbers: more than ten men in prison for every woman. That indicates a severe problem with how this culture raises men that cannot be explained by biological mythology or any other means short of this: men like your husband and me are the very rare exceptions, emerging despite - instead of due to - our upbringings.
No, I’m sorry - I’m not fronting a sterotype, I’m looking at statistics and outcomes: the way we raise men in this country is broken, as are most of the men. It is a tribute to the innate decency of all humans that the men who are the product of this miserable, destructive culture mostly stew in their own pain and confusion and do not unleash violence on those around them.
The crushing ignorance, especially here in America is very demoralizing.
At a time not long after America had the moral imperative to lead the way towards a better world, the nation took up the sword and the cross and it’s been downhill ever since.
We’ve helped uncork the lid for fanatics and fascists worldwide.
Seeing how both Cindy Sheehan and Andrew Bacevich are both so shattered after losing their children and then losing their faith in America is a strong lesson.
America, as Robert DeNiro would say: “You blew it!”
-GSD
Christy Hardin Smith @ 24
This is a great point. Let us not forget that many, many women also act as enablers to the male stereotypes. Southern women, esp. (Christy, you being an exception, of course!), I think, are afraid to speak their minds for fear of being seen as too assertive and thus not good “marriage material.”
However, I believe men are changing and beginning to appreciate more and more a woman who is confident in her identity and her convictions. It is wildly attractive to men who are secure in their own self-image.
Women in American society share a responsibility to stop undermining each other and to support each other in the efforts to improve our men by expecting, not necessarily demanding, respect. If a man is worthwhile, he will do his best to earn that respect.
Goodness gracious, I love men! As many times as I’ve been hurt by them, I still have not given up on them. And all the pain I have suffered in relationships has been as much my own doing as theirs, because I did not know how to be in control.
In that society, she is seen as the one who took the steps away from the rule of law and they were fulfilling the law. That’s an element that shouldn’t be ignored.
Abiding by the rule of law only prevents a slide into becoming a mob, sadists, fear and hate mongers, etc. when the law has not been perverted. That is, in the end, what has been so demoralizing - in every sense of that word - about the Bush Department of Justice and the Republicans AND Democrats in Congress.
They have chosen to pervert the law so that it can be used a as a weapon supporting secret detentions, beatings, threats, intimidation, coercion, sexual assaults, ritualized group beatings like those used to kill Dilawar, and back-slapping conspiracies to kidnap and torture.
Abiding to the rule of law is not a very sacred or worthwhile task when that law has been degraded into a mechanism of abuse. That’s the insidious evil - bootstraping onto a good person’s belief in adherence to the law (or to the orders of a superior) in order to enlist them into depravity.
And every time we excuse that misuse of law and power, bc this person is a “good progressive” or this person is “really a fine prosecutor” or this person is “one of the good guys” - every time you make that excuse, you choose to become part of the mob.
oldgold - I happened to be spending a lot of time in Jeddah - some bedouin offered the station rep 75 camels for me (hey the going rate was 50!)we were not veiled but were covered up, and always had to ride in the back of a pick up b/c we weren’t related to the driver . . .at the same time the US was debating the ERA - although young and unseasoned, I found it an interesting juxtaposition :)
Women couldn’t own property in 1st century Israel. My understanding is that the anti-divorce position in first century Judaism was because divorcing a woman forced her into prostitution.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 24
Ooooohh Thanks for picking up on that, Christy.
Beautifully expressed!
I, too, am very fortunate, much as you are.
One of my continuing struggles my whole adult life has been to try to urge folks NOT to make blanket judgements of ANY category of people.
I think the same prevailing sentiment is one that that makes the Lake very special. ;->
Christy Hardin Smith @ 21
Christy - your post is beautifully written, and paints a vivid picture. You certainly did find your voice.
Albatross @ 40
There is a war on ethnic minorities and the poor by way of repressive laws and economic isolation.
Pete Bogs @ 8
Being somewhat familiar with Whedon’s work, I think his use of the word “we” was intentional … and correct. No, most of “us” wouldn’t commit that crime of violence against women for that “offense”. But even ignoring for the moment hundreds of thousands of “domestic violence” incidents per year in the United States, there is in fact a general acceptance of little violences against women for all sorts of imagined offenses, even if most of those violences are “only” emotional ones.
No, as easy as it is to tut-tut and feel superior, the differences aren’t as clear as we’d like to think.
John- Quite possibly- it certainly pushed most of em into poverty as I mentioned.
noen @ 38
Hey! There’s no need to make me feel any more obsolete than I already do. *g*
Mandrake @ 20
May I recommend an insightful if infuriating text, The Alphabet vs. the Goddess by Leonard Schlain? While I cannot say that I subscribe to Schlain’s perspective, there are nuggets of value that the text sheds on the shift from matriarchal-goddess-fertility cultures to patriarchal-god-death cultures. Keep in mind as you read this text that Schlain writes from a man’s perspective; he cannot share a woman’s consciousness on what it was that was sacrificed in the shift between these cultures, whether the introduction of the alphabet presaged that shift or not.
Another text worth reading is The Geography of Thought: How Asians and Westerners Think Differently…and Why, by Richard Nisbett. (Again, keep in mind that Nisbett writes as a western man.) I was struck by the description of the differences between Asian and Western thought sounding more like the differences between women and men.
Unfortunately, we are what Chinese have called yin and yang, two parts of a whole, necessary but constantly fighting for balance. We completely separate subspecies divided along gender lines, competing for resources and rights between ourselves, instead of arriving at the conscious understanding that over the long run, both genders seek nothing more than the long term survival of the human genome. How do we begin that conversation without stopping the bloodshed first — and just how do we do that?
GSD @ 41
Sad but true. 30 % of Americans believe the Bible is literally true and nearly 50% don’t believe in evolution.
Albatross @ 40
Sorry, Albatross, I disagree. My brother and I were both badly abused as children. According to your theory, he should be an ax murderer. Instead, he’s a fine husband, a loving father and a successful businessman, not to mention a terrific brother. “The way we raise men” has less to do with this, I think, than the biology of some men and a preponderance of cultures in this world that still worship violence.
Here are some beautiful abayas.
http://www.fashionsera.com/abayas.html
rwcole @ 50
Yeah, sorry rw. It came out less varnished than I wanted.
There was a very good discussion of Du’a’s murder on Al Jazeera English’s Everywoman show this weekend with several Islamic scholars noting that honor killings are not Koranic. The consensus was that these are cultural murders based on tribal traditions which reach back to pre-Islamic days. In fact, there was an honor killing quite recently in Iraq in a Christian family.
The women on the panel discussed the tribal origins of “the need to control women’s sexuality” in broader terms as well. It was a spirited and valuable discussion - much removed from the hype style of our MSM.
Bearpaw @ 48
I don’t agree that “we” in general accept violence toward women… I believe individuals and certain sects do… if wanting to distance myself from monsters makes me come across as “superior,” so be it…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 5
imho, the key to male violence against women resides in the knowledge, held by any and every sexually active male, that any woman can take his best (sexual) shot, and be ready and willing to copulate with another male before the first one is ready to perform again; and that the ‘only’ way to prevent that is to place external limits on women’s sexuality–up to and including physical brutality and murder…
put simply, many men cannot tolerate the knowledge that they and they alone CANNOT sexually exhaust their female mates the way they themselves are exhausted by coitus…
but perhaps i’ve said too much…*lol*
The rise of monotheism pushed out the female members of the pantheon- although it is fairly clear that in early Jewish societies- there was a near universal reliance of female fertility figures.
The total absence of the female figure in Godhead for the religions “of the book” is interesting psychologically. May influence behavior in some way.
wont watch the video - i’ve seen enough violence on american shores so i have no need to view this - my god when will humans understand that violence only begets violence?
Mary @ 43 -
amen!
absolutely critical point to our understanding of our own situation…
“The crushing ignorance, especially here in America is very demoralizing.”
OK- but it isn’t americans- at least for the most part- who are engaging in these “honor killings”.
noen @ 48
Undoubtedly. So then there should be an equal but disproportionately-high number of minority men AND women in prison. Instead the population in prison is almost completely male.
Dalloway@54: And I should be an axe murderer too. The fact is your husband and I prevail despite our culture, rather than due to it. Oughtn’t we be unexceptional rather than unusual? Oughtn’t our culture encourage and protect young men such as he and I were, rather than abusing us and driving us towards violence?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 21
Very compellingly presented, Christy. I’m glad you found the right moment and way to present it. Well worth it!
Helpless Dancer @ 51
But you aren’t obsolete. The long run here is on the order of 100,000 years or longer.
This stoning was the final straw for me. No more discussion, no more educating myself re the issues. No more politicizing and I even decided who I would not vote for for president.This Iraqui culture is the reason dictators flourish. Women are property and to repress them is to show strength and control over the ultimate prayer, the ultimate human act- giving birth. Through the ages we have had witch hunts every 150 or 200 years to reiterate men’s control and to diminish the “Power” of women. Religions do this all the time, the Catholic Church being oppressor in chief. Women know their power and they know enough to apply it with velvet gloves lest they invite their own repression by men. This video is the final submission and Iraqi women knew about it and allowed it to happen. The people we are trying to democratize know nothing about which we are talking. To them, democracy is a state to be laughed at and ridiculed. After all their benevolent dictator supplied their needs. We cant even supply them with eletricity! Submission feeds the babies. That in and of itself is enough to live in a subjucated society. Democracy, to people whose culture has engrained these things,is a joke. Using it as an excuse to allow our own babies to be kidnapped or killed, is obscene. It is time to come home. If we have to fight them here- so be it. At least we will be constantly reminded of what we are protecting and of the values in which we believe. Women need to step up and stop this kind of thing. Stoning a teenager is not civilized. War is not civilized. What on earth have we become? The better question might be, what have we remained?
I would venture to say that the vast majority of men have never committed violence on a woman in their life.
The vast majority of men haven’t had a fist fight since adulthood.
It’s easy to get a little over the top when dealing with this issue.
Yep, this is my understanding too. Most 1st century religions were focussed on fertility. First century human existence was characterized by high infant mortality rates and low life expectancies for women who probably spent most of their post puberty years pregnant. Again, my guess is that the minority of 1st century women made it out of their child bearing years alive.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 59
No, the external limits are there because he feels a need to protect his investment and to ensure that competing males do not cuckold him.
The reason that some men sometimes take violent action against women that they think are unfaithful is well documented in Othello among other places.
Grumbles - the murder of Du’a was not an “Iraqi” thing and, while I agree that we must leave Iraq, seeing this murder as emblematic of Iraqi or Islamic societies is inaccurate. My friends in Iraq were as horrified by this event as we are - and they include very religious “fundamentalist” muslims.
btw, this piece on antiwar art is fascinating. Has anyone seen this exhibit in person? Would love to know your thoughts on it, if so.
LINK
“A designer tugs at Iran’s fashion straitjacket” –Christian Science Monitor
Beautiful clothes!
I saw a still photo of this incident when it first happened… that was enough for me… this “desensitized” male has no stomach for watching the video…
Neon @ 70
Yep - It would kill men to know that another man’s kid inherited his work/stuff.
I remember having a dicussion in college about how women were still oppressed and while the guys thought that they were enlightened and didn’t feel that women were oppressed, it was so sweet, they basically fell back on the thought that if they didn’t or couldn’t control their wives then how would they be sure that their wife only had their children. One older guy just blurted out that thought and the rest of the guys seemed gobsmacked. You could tell that they were working their way through that comment and really didn’t like the answers they got from their guts.
Mary @ 43
Reading that makes me feel like I got hit in the gut.
Regarding women, especially in Middle Eastern culture, I am reminded of the video TRex featured in a late nite post of the Lebanese woman debating a male Muslim cleric about women’s rights on t.v. After watching that, it occurred to me that the empowerment of women likely stands to do more damage to the threat posed by Islamic fundamentalism than all the TNT in the world.
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If events like the murder of Du’a are repellant to the majority of Iraqis, why do not (have not) the majority of Iraqis arise to oppose it, to try to stop it?
it’s my same question to the ‘moderate’ USer Xians who seem to ‘tolerate’ the ‘religious’ excesses of their ‘evangelical’ and ‘fundie’ bretheren?
Selise @ 18: yes, I definitely see an analogy between controlling reproductive freedom and these stories. I was working at a very conservative Catholic church the other day, and the priest spent the entire sermon calling on the parishoners to march down to a specific women’s clinic (in a very poor area of the city) to stop abortions from being performed. He didn’t say what exactly they should do to prevent abortions - what, hold signs and shame the women going into the clinic for whatever reason they may be entering? Do something more active like blocking the clinic or…?
I know Pentecost Sunday is often viewed as a day of empowerment, a day to call people to evangelism. I just find it rather odd that this church would find it empowering and evangelical to shame their poor, desperate neighbors in a very poor area of town. This is the opposite of what I was taught in my Catholic upbringing - God wants us to help and love one another. Why not a call to become more involved in helping the poor in their community? Why not a call to help poor young mothers, help the homeless, help those suffering from violence and poverty - a call to reach out to those who have nothing? No, instead you should march en masse and shame your neighbors.
It is as if many believe that the only way to control society is to control the decision making processes for women. This crosses many lines - not only reproductive choice, but by limiting the career options and pay levels of women, by limiting their roles in society (such as leadership roles in many religions, political offices, etcetera), and by always pressing the societal norm that women must put families above all ambitions in their lives, whereas men do not carry such a burden.
When I read the stories like those that Christy wrote about, I am always amazed at how much freedom women have in America. Yet, there are a lot of subtle things in our society that keep us from having the full right to make our own decisions. Things I rarely think about (as a woman). It’s just an accepted fact that my gender will mean I’m paid less than a man, that I will always be viewed as a selfish woman because I don’t have children (regardless of the reasons for being childless), that society will limit my decision making power because I’m female. I’m guessing it’s an accepted fact in places like Iraq and Saudi Arabia that women’s behavior will be strictly controlled and enforced through violence. Who knows if this type of behavior will ever radically change, if women can truly be given the respect to decide what is best for themselves.
grumbles @ 67
It isn’t just Iraq. Conflict in the middle east isn’t only over oil, it’s also a conflict between an old tribal culture and it’s mores and modern western technological culture.
Change the environment and you change the behavior.