The good first:
I went to a Saints game last night. And tailgated! (Well, actually tablegated, but the table was within hailing distance of the car.) I'd show pictures, but I got up late and spouse took the camera with him (with the SD card's contents not yet downloaded) before going out for the day.
The Saint Paul Saints are a independent-league baseball team that have been around since 1993, first as a founding team of the revived Northern League and now in the American Association. They are probably the most successful of the modern independent teams, both in terms of attendance and financial status, a success that is in large part attributed to their marketing skills and their irreverent, family-oriented take on the game. They're not afraid to poke (mostly) gentle fun at various pompous objects desperately in need of deflating; last night's "chase the children" event, a between-innings stunt in which various bad guys chase and fail to catch small kids circling the diamond, featured George Lucas as the children-chaser and butcherer re-editer of his own classic films.
Well, that was the good. And if good's what interests you right now, you might want to skip the rest of this post, because what I have to say might upset some people. (And if in the comments you just wanna discuss the good, that's ok, too.)
So, anyway:
I think I can say with some assurance that most of us reading this wanted the Democrats to succeed in forcing Bush to sign, right now, a bill containing a hard timetable for getting us -- all of us (yes, mercenaries privateers military and "security" contractors, that means you, too) -- out of Iraq. And, after months of trying, they gave up and -- with a number of Democrats dissenting -- gave Bush a three-month blank check.
That's the bad.
And then the firestorm started.
That's the ugly.
Everywhere in what is commonly called the "reality-based" portion of the blogosphere, rage took over. White-hot, righteous, unyielding rage. A rage that had in many ways been rehearsed to a degree, and planned for -- a rational irrationality, if you will.
There's healthy spleen-venting; that's well and good. But this rage -- especially over something that had been predicted would happen from the beginning because of the conventional wisdom, right or wrong, that the Democrats had no other realistic options -- is different. It's all-encompassing and brooks no argument, no temporizing, not even the slightest dissent.
Here's just a small taste of what I'm talking about, for those who don't feel like wading through, say, the last week's worth of DU entries, Eschaton comments threads, FDL entries and threads, or Daily Kos diaries (even those by normally non-crazy people):
Joan Walsh, in a Salon column discussing and largely praising Keith Olbermann's thunderous condemnation of the Iraq cave-in, dared suggest he might have been "a bit over the top" to condemn them all. For that, she got slagged. Heavily. And repeatedly, and insanely.). All because while she agreed with Olbermann that caving was bad, she didn't want to tar all Dems with the same brush.
Meanwhile, at DKos (and I know this comes close to violating the DKos rule about "calling out" Kossacks, but if didn't I'd be slammed for not providing examples), one Kossack went and quit another Kossack's group because while they both agreed that capitulation was wrong, the second Kossack dared to suggest that it was time to quit beefing and get back to work pressuring the legislators. (And at least one other prominent Kossack actually posted a diary condemning the Dems who voted no -- not yes, but NO -- and ordering them off of DailyKos. And he wasn't alone in his thinking: the diary made the Recommended list in very short order.) Repeat that scene a few zillion times, and that's what Daily Kos has looked like the past few days. People who agree on most everything, including that the Democrats were wrong to give in, are now seeing each other as mortal enemies, worse than any Republicans. (And if they're attacking the people who agree with them on what the Democrats did, Lord help those who dare state, as Tomasky essentially did, that the Democrats had no choice in the matter.)
This is worse than the usual circular firing squad. And to me, it's ugly.
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Morning, PW!
hmm. a thought, indeed.
Hey fellow Minnesotan,
I would love a review of our representatives votes. I thought the votes were going to be Coleman: yes, Klobuchar: no, Ellison: no. As best I can determine (and I could be wrong but I can’t find the voting list on the websites) their actual votes were Ellison: no, Klobuchar: YES, and Coleman skipped the vote!
On to the topic…I tried making that point a couple of days ago.
To wit: who would win the most, and be the happiest, to watch all out warfare among the people who support the Democratic party?
Karl Rove and the Cheney administration.
Let’s consider that, and then think about what happened, why, and what is our best response.
I never got the logic that Dems would pay a price for not sending a bill or resending the same bill. 65% of Americans want to get out of Iraq; the slow dance is ugly and every day two Americans and 10 Iraqis die. America hates George Bush, now. He speaks and birds shit on him — yea, I know it is over used, even in a day.
NO ONE believes what he says. His AG is a liar and Bush keeps him and says “I have confidence in him.”
Well, America doesn’t have confidence in either of them.
Bully boy only has his bravado. Dems folded for NO reason.
That is why we are mad as hell.
I am displeased with my party. The Democratic Party.
Morning PW.
I’m with you on this.
Rage over things like this leads to 3rd party night-blind reactionary hiccups. I’ve seen enuf of those to last a lifetime. NO MORE!
We must file our disappointment however we can, and keep on trying to work together as progressives, liberals, Democrats, whatever you need to call yourself, guys….
p.s., I’m too old to care whether i’m a target or not. fire away, anyone who thinks they must… Just make sure you point yer weapon 1st. Don’t make me unleash my attack sparrow again…
Is anyone watching C-SPAN 1 with a repeat of the Monica Goodling, uh, shit?
Yep, I bet Rove and Cheney are REALLY scared that the Democrats will show some resolve and force subpoenas on everyone in the Bush admin. Yeah, right.
If you are going to talk shit……”new sheriff in town”…”rubber stamp days are over”….you better be ready to back it up with action.
If not, people think you are either a windbag or spineless and weak.
Instead we get to drink the “weak tea” that Harry Reid was bitching about.
It is the AUMF vote all over again and the Republican Party will use it the same way.
-GSD
Yes, but. It’s ugly, but here’s one thing: Democrats in Congress should be more afraid of going against their constituencies than they are of having Karl Rove and Co. saying bad things about them.
We must stop allowing the busheviks to define us, and to force our actions. The American public wants the US military out of Iraq, and out now.
I can find absolutely nothing in Mr. Olbermann’s very recent comment about the Demo cave in on Iraq to quibble with.
Wordsmith @ 8
GLAD to hear they’re showing it.
Been there. Saw that. Once is enuf for me, ewwww. But Kudos for the h/t ;->
I agree that it has been pretty rough over on Big Orange. I’ve largely stayed out the fights there, mainly because I was never prepared to tar the D’s with the same brush. That, and the fact that of my three representatives in Congress, only Sen. Durbin voted for it (Rep. Costello and Sen. Obama voted no). So I was actually pleased with my representation for the most part (though Durbin has some ’splaining to do).
I didn’t like KO lumping Obama’s late no vote with Sen. Clinton’s. A commentor on MyDD mentioned that Obama typically is one of the last to vote on any bill, and not just this one. Why he does that, I don’t know–but it certainly does not smack of “calculation” which is always the inevitable conclusion on anything Sen. Clinton does, rightly or wrongly.
Besides, you should have seen Big Orange during the infamous “pie fight” of some months back. That made the current contretemps look like a playground fight between two kindergartners.
Andy
Peterboy, the problem (as I see it) is that the Dems are not a unified block as the Republicans are (see the Monica Goodling hearing, where various Rethug congresscritters stood up and humiliated themselves with inanities in support of lying Monica).
Note that Nancy Pelosi wanted Rep. Murtha as Majority Leader. Well, she got Steny Hoyer. So the problem is not just that the Democrats in Congress do not have enough votes to force shrub to get out of Iraq, it’s that a lot of those Democrats aren’t rowing in the same direction.
We can hate on them and try to throw them out, but unless we can be sure we’re replacing a Rahmbo with somebody decent, it’s the Rethugs who will end up gaining. And they’ve proven they’ll do whatever Karl tell them to.
That’s the conundrum, as I see it.
I was looking forward to Reid & Pelosi’s creative ways to box Bush into a corner, make him squirm, get him all defensive and childish. I was looking forward to the Republican plan to have GIs complain about bullet shortages (as they were planning, and as Gary Trudeau accurately predicted). I was looking forward to the irony.
I was disappointed. Now all I have to look forward to is Republicans pointing at Democrats and claiming, truthfully, that it’s our war now.
Good morning, PW.
How did you find just the right title…
for what I find in the mirror this AM?
I had to leave in the midst of it before - work - and though I had wonderful lies provided to be legends of ‘firepups’, somehow I knew that my having exploding radioactive diarrhea with a dry hacking cough would make no difference to my employers. “We ARE in Radiology. We work around radioactive SHIT all day. GET IN HERE!”
I understand what you are saying. I even intelectualy have some agreement. venting against each other dosnt seem to get us anywhere.
The flipside, for me: I work with Veterans. This war scares the crap out of me. Once you’ve heard a couple people say “I died the day I killed that man”, it becomes a lot harder to keep perspective or accept, in any way or form “inevitability” on this. I have 0 room for conventional wisdom leading us, and even less for us buying into it. So what do we do?
Andy -
Is ‘Big Orange’ - kos?
Good morning, with wishes for a great enjoyable long weekend to all. Before I shut down this computer for the next few days, let me say that am not able to follow all topics as closely as the authors (and commenters) at FDL do.
I have always been wondering about how much leeway the dems have, and why underlying dynamics are hidden behind the ‘troup support’ label.
See contribution in truthout by Ann Wright, the former Colonel who left the army out of protest. Benchmarks, that’s what they are:
“On Thursday, May 24, the US Congress voted to continue the war in Iraq. The members called it “supporting the troops.” I call it stealing Iraq’s oil - the second largest reserves in the world. The “benchmark,” or goal, the Bush administration has been working on furiously since the US invaded Iraq is privatization of Iraq’s oil. Now they have Congress blackmailing the Iraqi Parliament and the Iraqi people: no privatization of Iraqi oil, no reconstruction funds.”
I know the dems basically had no choice but to cave, I’m over it. That being said, I will never stop putting pressure on them to come up with other ideas to get us out of this insane war. IMO the anger is boiling over because as we speak people are dying in Iraq. Americans, and Iraqi’s, women, and children, and for what? We got to Iraq based on LIES. I don’t understand how waiting until September is going to change things one bit. It will be the same story from the Republic party. The general will tell everyone progress is being made, give the surge a chance. They haven’t had enough time for things to work.
I just wish we could find a way out of Iraq yesterday.
Adie @ 7
Heh! Your attack sparrow could probably take me down in a heartbeat right now. I am sick and saddened at all of this. I almost didn’t post this today because I didn’t want the site to suffer on my account, but I felt that I had to speak out.
I also apologize for constantly editing on the fly here; I couldn’t find, among other things, the link to the Tomasky piece (I love The Guardian, but navigating their website is a pain).
There’s no shortage of strife on the Republican side either.
They may have unity on this piece of shit war but they are fired up about Fox News soft-peddling the immigration issue in favor of the Bush corporatists. They are ripshit about it.
In other news Bush is gonna stick it in Tony Blair’s ass on the way out the door and try to destroy any global warming initiatives.
In Iraq Al Sadr has reappeared and is looking to bring Sunni’s into the fold. He also said that for hard-line Muslims to threaten Christians into conversion “is a sin”.
The Brits just killed a reported top Mahdi militiaman in Basra and today their base was shelled.
If Sadr unites Sunni and Shia and decides to bring it on agains the US….it’s gonna be a long summer.
-GSD
Oklahoma kiddo @ 11
now yer gonna think I’M a fence-straddler.
i agree with YOU as WELL as PW.
We need to express our deep disgust/disappointment directly to our congresscritters, & the MSM.
BUT
We HAVE to continue trying to work together, in order to have any hope of success in the future.
I respect you enormously, OK.
I hope you can try to see where I’m coming from on this. I’m disgusted also, but pure disgust does not lead, in & of itself, to anything positive… at least in my book…
Charlie Brown is mad because Lucy pulled the football away…again!
She said she wouldn’t, but then she did…waaah!
same thing will happen in September, then again in 08, then the new (D) Decider will finally have the reins of power in their hands… and then will dither and continue the occupation because they don’t wan’t to be called soft or accused of losing…
so if only the idealism, passion and energy of the left blogosphere could someday snap out of the codependent marraige with the (D) party and cohere around an antiwar, anti neo-con 3rd party, we wouldn’t have to endure this charade every 2 years.
I have not made up my mind about third-party stuff. As to the possibility of my leaving the Democratic party? This 40 year, straight Demo ticket voting Democrat, will wait until after Nov. 2008. Probably.
sporkovat @ 25
oh.gawd……….. ‘ere we go…………….
Oklahoma kiddo @ 26
Now I’m beginning to see how hard it must’ve been for my dad to leave the Republican party in 2002. He’d voted Republican since being able to vote; he was 82 in 2002. He’s been in war; he knows. Christ, I know.
Adie… I hear you and understand what you’re telling me. :0)
Same goes for PW. ;0)
me, I don’t understand why the D’s allowed the votes to take place before the recess.
As it stands now, their trips home, and attendant fundraising efforts, are gonna really suck. The base is MAD.
OTOH, if they’d delayed the vote until just after the reurn from recess, there could have been both a spinal infusion, and better fundraising results.
Not only piss-poor execution, but poor planning pre-cave-in.
tbsa @ 21
Thank you. This I can understand and accept. Attacking people who voted the way one wanted them to, I cannot.
PW
Your posts strengthen this site and community beyond measure. Never hold back. Your instincts & delivery are right on target. ;->
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 4
DING!
Adie @ 27, ignore it….
Since I believe in what is good for America first, I think it is good to see Democrats screaming to thier leaders (and to other dems that don’t see this for what it is) about making a political decision, when they should have been making a moral decision. If this WASNT happening, it would be proof that the democratic party was no better than the repuglicans.
My bottom-line problem with the cave in is more dead bodies.
The Clint Eastwood film title you used above really fits these days. Only I would display the word good in mini 2-4 point typeface and the Bad and Ugly in something like Bold 48 points, and then it would describe my view of the Bush Cabal dominated world. His proteges in my more local world like Steven the Hump brained Harper and the Gordon Campbell Crime Family just add to the the appropriateness of large bold fonts for BAD and UGLY
I only discovered the posting “No Comment” by Lewis Koch this morning, but was fascinated by the discussion following it. Primarily the debate about whether Fitzgerald and Comey were given too much credit for being “good” guys. I think it is a sign of how morally and legally corrupt your (was mine, but I disowned it years ago) nation has become that such compromised figures can be beacons of righteousness.
My feeling is that if the government insists on continuing to ignore the law, eventually it will become the NORM for the people to ignore the law also and that will include a severe lack of respect for “property rights” of the propertied Repuklican class not to mention respect for life where a lead pill can cure the breathing.
I think Jefferson still said it best though he was referring to the transgressions of an earlier King George! The abstract Law is a fragile thing, but the Law of the Jungle is never far from being the real jurisdiction. Unless your government is made to realize it too must submit to the law, even Republicans, then don’t be surprised if people like the Bullshit Express McCain have to wear Flak Jackets to shop at Wal-Mart in Little Rock.
I love the reasoning and writing of lhp, marcy, jane and christy to mention only a few of my favorites here, but like the OKKid, I’m tired of seeing those who consider themselves the elite considering justice a two edged sword, dull on the side that applies to them and seeing Faux Noise keep the masses distracted from their exploitation.
There’s an old saying..”to cut off the nose to spite the face”. That is exactly what will happen if we persist in this circular firing squad. We’ll end up with the repugs back in power, and what exactly is the up-side to that? I’m not saying some dems don’t deserve our scorn, but get real already. If we end up as a fractured party, as the repugs are, we’re screwed.
ifthethunder–
I get that some Dems fear being tarred and feathered with that old cut-and-run stuff,
but America wants to leave, we hate Bush, don’t believe him.
The Dems who quaver need to get over that. In some ways, that the vote took place before they went home is good–they get to hear what we think. The DC bubble is toxic, the WaPost is what they read with their coffee.
Maybe, only a birdee and a great speaker can penetrate the bubble.
kdh22 @ 33
oh, and PW, great post!
I will turn 57 in a few days and after all those years of being against the vietnam war ( yes, even at 17 wrote a letter to my hometown newspaper about the ill advised and morally bankrupt war) waged by a democrat, against the US policy on palestine (aided by democrats), the nuclear arms race, then the regan years of bent knee press coverage starting after the asassination attempt, the contra wars and the deal making with Iran, and insane domestic policies of reagan and ad nauseum, I have come to a point where I am very tired of all the talk about how much we have to work with the system and be patient.
I am a lawyer and worked as a public defender for 15 years and have the gall to think that I know something about working in a system and patience so forgive me that I am not too worried about people getting upset about the way the democrats have handled this one. What scares me is that through all of this there is little appreciation by many democrats as to just how fanatical the current administration and all their lackeys truly are. These are not old syle battles with country club republicans. These new neo fascist repubs are brazen about their disregard for the law and the constitution. Whether driven by ideological belief, the idea that they are doing god’s will, or a fanatical devotion to big business matters not. These people are dangerous and they will not ever play by the rules and we as democrats largely refuse to recognise this and do not fight hard enough to stop them, so perhaps a little anger is needed.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 36
Mine too, but in all reality, this is what we were going to end up with no matter what. Bush would have found an end around whatever passed, and the blood would be on his hands. As it is now. On HIS hands.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 26
The problem with third parties on the left is that they are financed to a large degree by the GOP.
If Iraq or Iran or any other foreign country invades Oklahoma, kills our woman and children and attempts to steal our resources, and I fight back, am I then a “terrorist”?
BAGHDAD — A day after radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr resurfaced to end nearly four months in hiding and demand U.S. troops leave Iraq, American forces raided his Sadr City stronghold and killed five suspected militia fighters in air strikes Saturday.
U.S. and Iraqi forces called in the air strikes after a raid in which they captured a “suspected terrorist cell leader,” the U.S. military said in statement.
:rant:
to me, the problem is most everyone is playing politics instead of serving the best interests of the nation.
are our best interests being served in iraq? i haven’t heard a persuasive argument yet to support that and that’s why we should get out now. every additional death is a crime that will be hung around the war supporters necks forever. how many kids will die in the three months the dems gave the president?
the same reasoning applies to impeachment. high crimes and misdemeanors were committed and therefore impeachment must be pursued for the sake of intellectual integrity at the very least.
do politicians really believe history will judge them kindly for sticking their fingers in the political winds while history’s most reckless and criminal president dismantles the american state and terrorizes the middle east?
for f*ck’s sake, 2/3’s of the country is behind taking control away from the bush mafia. why aren’t they scared of being in the minority of public opinion? i generally don’t support message or issue purity, but we are talking about an illegal war and constitutional abuses that threaten our way of life. it’s time to make our elected officials feel the pain of their foolish decisions.
enough already…
:/rant:
virginia cynic @ 41
great comment.
i think this is right — we just need
to avoid tearing ourselves apart — for them,
saving them the trouble — i think, is
PW’s larger object-lesson, here. . .
Wordsmith @ 19
Yes, that’s Daily Kos. It’s also been called The Great Orange Satan more than once!
Andy
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 4
Exactly. Up to now, I’ve counted my blessing that I wasn’t old enough to remember 1968 and how that sundered and crippled the Democrats. Now it looks like I may get to relive that all over again, this time as an adult.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 29
Thank you for that, OK. It means a lot.
fwiw, when I saw Sherrod Brown in the YEA column, a little part of me died right then & there…
I’m clinging to a slim hope that folks who think “something else is going on, & about to break” are correct. Jr.s acting weird-er than usual, almost frantic, even tho he just got his way on this.
That columnist - whoever it was??? - who described the new war czar as standing there, with a whole line of condi, jr., shooter, etc. etc. all hiding behind him….
The, ahem, D.C. madam’s secret list….
Monika’s squeekyvoice idiocy actually gaining “legs” as a story, in spite of even C-Span initially ignoring her….
meanwhile, the killing goes on & on & on with no letup, and I can’t stand that anymore either. ENOUGH! IT HAS TO STOP! IT MUST BE STOPPED!
I’m still naive enuf to DEMAND IMPEACHMENT of both jr.&shooter N.O.W!
enough shouting by me.
NEXT?
p.s., i’m so proud a’ my lil’ sparruh, i could just hug ‘er. she’s pooped…, s’cuse, exhausted…, oh dang, TIRED! but if she could fly all the way from here to D.C. & back, the rest of us can find a way to keep going. we just HAVE to. eh?
tbsa @ 34
SMACK!
Thanks. i needed that. ;->
Phoenix Woman @ 48
PW — earlier you wrote:
. . .There’s healthy spleen-venting; that’s well and good. But this rage — especially over something that had been predicted would happen from the beginning because of the conventional wisdom, right or wrong, that the Democrats had no other realistic options — is different. It’s all-encompassing and brooks no argument, no temporizing, not even the slightest dissent. . .
in my humble opinion, this won’t be 1968.
i agree with all you’ve written, save that.
i think we — as a party — are better than
that, now. . . and honestly, with the internet,
we are in command of the information-stream,
ourselves — it is up to us to do what we
can with it, to stay united; to move forward;
not to be goaded-into-tearing-ourselves-apart.
just my $0.02.
Good post, Phoenix Woman. As one of those with white-hot rage, I actually think this reaction is a good thing. It is, without question, emotion that will cool, but never entirely pass. Which is a good thing, too — we should never forget that we’re fighting forces that don’t cleave cleanly along Republican/Democrat lines. In large part, this is a fight against the corporatists.
In any case, my rage has cooled into a the tempered steel of a mighty sword of resolve. This is the ultimate good. I will, despite some prior wailings of mine, continue to work with the Democratic party. However, I am reminded that they are not allies, they are the best shot at forming (I intentionally avoid saying “reforming”) a party that represents actual human beings rather than corporate interests. I will stay with them not because I “have nowhere else to go,” as someone somewhere postulated, but because they are, in fact, my best shot. I don’t think this is just a semantic difference.
Some people will leave the Dems over this. That’s a shame, but in the end, I don’t think it will be a major setback.
There’s a great cry of pain (beginning to fade across the board — that level of emotion can’t, and shouldn’t, be maintained for very long), but it’s catharsis. It sends us a lesson. Many of us will change how we work with the Dems. I see this frequently with comments from people affirming they will suppport individual candidates but not the party machine. We will, in the end, be stronger and more successful as a result.
Lets hope the Dems can become a real alternative political party by 2008. Because I’m not inclined to just grin and bear it.
My suggestion to those who say don’t worry about the “cave-in”, would be to enlist. And the sooner, the better.
Ugly is the new Pretty, phoenix woman
As for Joan Walsh she can’t be slagged enough!
Of course I’m speaking from personal experience with the bitch in that she contracted a hit piece of me for daring to “out” the barebacking of her Pet Homosexual Patient Less Than Zero
virginia cynic @ 41
That is the problem in a nutshell — the Beltway Democrats just don’t get it.
They don’t understand why they won last November, and don’t understand that the BushCo GOP is an organized crime syndicate.
The American People understand, despite the nonstop GOP propaganda from the MSM. The country is ready for decisive leadership, and the Democrats give us milquetoast capitulation.
Why was Karl Rove at the Capitol? A victory lap, for his latest rat fuck.
nolo @ 46
That’s exactly it.
It’s one thing to focus one’s rage on deserving targets. It’s quite another to become so rage-addicted that we attack those who don’t deserve it even more viciously than those who do.
Phoenix Woman @ 48
Precisely.
From your keyboard to the Dem leaders’ inboxes, PW.
What (legal acts) must transpire for the Dem leaders to fear their constituents more than they fear the GOP?
And how can they be accomplished well before Denver?
It’s not too late for the Dem leaders to come home to their constituents - but that will require genuine events, not transparent Beltway wordplay and symbolic votes.
should we “sheep” all go back to our normal wanderings? or is some of this emotion good for the country? Bottom line is we are dealing with POLITICIANS ………. remember? Very few put the interest of the USA and the constituion above politiKing. This is a life and death matter for so many ….. but then if we go back to our normal “there is no war” routine we can claim (as the Germans did in 1945-46) that …. gee, I did not know that. …. Sounds like a Bush admin excuse for everything
Here’s the reality…
“While troops are still in Iraq, Americans overwhelmingly support continuing to finance the war, though most want to do so with conditions. Thirteen percent want Congress to block all money for the war.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05.....ref=slogin
The thing that has to happen is to not let the Bushiviks throw the war into the laps of the Dems or anyone else. We need to let the WH fight it out amongst themselves. There seems to be several things going on simultaneously.
1. There may be a rift between the Cheney war-mongering camp and the Bush/Gates Poppy intervention scenario happening.
2. Pelosi and Reid would be aware of 1.
3. I think Bush will attempt to follow the timeline Pelosi and Reid were asking for and try to take credit politically for withdrawal or redeployment of some or most of the troops (but reality is, the U.S. will NEVER completely leave Iraq)
4. Although Pelosi and Reid are getting pummeled right now by their own party, if there is significant movement toward some kind of withdrawal or redeployment in “September”, it will be because of their maneuvering and pressure in an almost impossible situation now. Pelosi and Reid want to end the war because the war is wrong. The Repubs that get on the bandwagon in “September” are doing so because of politics.
This is Bush’s war and the Republican’s war. The blood is on his administration’s hands and on the hands of those (including Dems) who vote to prolong it. The fight for peace is the Dem’s fight, and there is nothing the Busheviks can do to change that.
The crime is that for each month that goes by, about 100 soldiers and countless Iraqis are killed. To delay withdrawal for political posturing is unforgivable.
I still say, hold yer fire.
FWIW, I understand the vote and somewhat understand at least on some level why some of the Dems felt no choice. The reality is the lack of senate votes for anything but the most puerile and limited “benchmarks.”
What I do not understand is the fear of being tarred with cut and run. The reality is, that will happen regardless of how individual Dems vote. We need to accept that as a fact, correctly offer the TRUTHFUL rebutttals and move on. I guess it’s the fear that bothers me the most. It goes to the lack of spine and resolve and is what puts the Rahm Emmanuels in control. It’s also playing directly into the Chimpenfuhrer’s MO:
FearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFear and so on and so forth ad infinitum.
i bet it was pragmatic to support hitler for awhile too…
nolo 51
nicely said ;->
nolo @ 51
I hope you’re right. Maybe it’s because I spend so much time online at all the places I’ve mentioned (and a few others too), and to see the rage just totally take over all of those places scares me.
My husband, who does not spend much time online (thank goodness), is helping me see the non-internet-junkie’s viewpoint. When I mentioned the firestorm over the Iraq supplemental to him last night, he said this:
“It’s not a big win for Bush at all. If it was, he’d be having a big public signing ceremony in the White House. Instead, he’s doing it quietly and privately, in his mini-vacation at Camp David before he goes for his full vacation in Crawford.”
I’d never thought about it that way before. And to me, this might indicate that the supplemental is pissing off a fair number of Republican voters as well as Democratic ones.
I hope he’s right, let’s put it that way!
peterboy @ 38
I’ll go beyond saying some of the Democrats fear being tarred and feathered…some of them are horrible, war-supporting hypocrites. And this is why some of those who might do the right thing are instead afraid being tarred and feathered. Because that is exactly what would happen when the whole effort fails, thanks to the presence of too many Steny Hoyers and Rahm Emmanuels and Ellen Tauschers. (P.S. I get that is what is going to happen anyways, and yeah I’m not happy with how this whole fiasco went down either…but it did.)
But again, what should we do? I’m all in favor of primary challenges, but the reality is a lot of the worst are in areas where you get DINO or a Republican.
How about a list of people we will continue to support (which implies a list of people we won’t, and yet sends a more positive message :-), and a list of people where we think we can make an effective primary challenge?
Bill @ 58
No, no, a thousand times no! The outcry and rage results from the fact that many (myself included, to an extent) looked at the Dems as white nights. This is the outrage of the disillusioned. And disillusionment can be a great thing. It brings you closer to reality.
To those who are enraged, I say GOOD. That’s exactly right. Now, act effectively for change. A very effective path can be to take over the Democratic party, work to rid it of its perverse elements and shape it to represent you better. The religious right did it to the Republican Party (sorry for the comparison), the good guys can do it to the Democratic Party.
But you can’t do it at all when you drop out the game altogether.
I am going, with ‘the people’ to Navajo Cemetery (about fifteen miles due north) which lies at the foot of the Navajo Mountains later today to put flowers on my father’s and his brother’s grave. Each of these guys served in WWII in the Navy and Army. All of them saw action. Big action. That was a war that had to be fought. This so called Iraq War was and is, unecessary.
peterboy @ 5
Exactly!! People seem to forget, Gingrich tried to shut the government down when Clinton’s approval ratings were close to double what the Commander Guy’s are now. With approval ratings in the shitter, does the Commander Guy have as much leverage as people seem to think? Or do Congressional Dems suck at PR(like they always seemingly do)?
virginia cynic @ 41
Amen. After the sound and fury abates a little (and I believe it will)we will regroup and continue to fight. We absolutely must fight these lawless unAmerican cowards at every single turn.
A circular firing squad on our side won’t get that done.
We will fight them until hell freezes over and then we will fight them on the ice.
Impeaching Cheneybush is a pipedream…
impeachment was rendered moot as a tool of accountabiltiy by the Clenis operation. it will not resuscitated in my life-time (another 15-20 years), except unless there is another majority-fascist Congress and a less-fascistic Executive from the other party. any effort by the Dems now to impeach (uproot) the cheenybush will be portrayed by the lap-dog press as pay-back for clenis, no matter what crimes with which the criminals are charged…
impeachment of abu bin gonzo, of course, would be a nice event…but even that might prove to be impossible, given the make-up of the Senate. Gonzo’s main and essential job–as i have been saying for weeks–from now until the election gets into full swing is to be a lightning rod and a distraction. i expect his behavior to become more and more outrageous, not less… he’s not a chastened civil servant, he’s an agent of the vast, right-wing conspiracy to steal america. this will be abetted by the 80 USAttys whose loyalty has already been adjudged (by Monica Goodling) sufficient that they needn’t be replaced in order to facilitate the shenanigans–voter obstruction, mainly–they are charged with effecting.
the dems have just enough power to be blamed for not having enough power to change anything….
and that was fuuuuukin BRILLIANT!
.
President Low Normal telling David Gregory “They’re a threat to your children” reminds me of Tim Robbins holding up the Hula Hoop in The Hudsucker Proxy and saying “It’s for the kids.”
Speaking of baseball. Listened to an interview with Boog Powell last night and one with Robin Roberts today. It’s amazing how these old timers remember every pitch, every hit. They really make Gonzo look like an idiot.
Have not read the comments yet. If otherwise stated here is a duplicate. Any General worth their salt makes sure the troops under his command fears him far more than they fear the enemy. What is occurring now is making sure both Congressfolk and Senators know whom to fear, should they desire to continue their career come 08. And well fear these represenatives should be, they, with a certainty, shall be out of office with any more concessionary foolishness. There may be millions of dollars in a bank, but precious few votes. Paraphrasing Willy Horton, us is where the votes are.
Back to the top of the comments. All the best…….
The cave-in OUGHT to demonstrate beyond even the faintest shadow of a doubt that the efforts of the blogosphere, MoveOn, etc. etc. etc. are absolutely worthless.
You heard me, absolutely worthless. THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN & CAN’T BE FIXED. There’s just one shade or the other of the corporate state, the good cop/bad cop routine. The American experiment is over, chilluns. You can argue all the kumbayah crap you want, exhort people to do whatever, but it’s to zero avail. It’s busted. It really, really, really is busted. You can’t reform it from within. Pressure legislators? What a sick joke. If you’re still at that stage, you’re still blind.
The question then remains, how does one live one’s life? Well, millions of humans before us have lived at such cusps of history and somehow still kept finding someone to love, eating, and washing out their bowls afterwards. I’m afraid this time the change will be rather more catastrophic, but the fact is you just have to cut your egoistic ties to the existing structure and find new paths.
That’s a good thing, IMHO. Best of luck to all…
The one thing that bothers the shit out of me is that people like PW are basically saying there is no way to force Commander Codpiece to get the troops out before he leaves office, because if not now, when? The Decider knows the Dems will just cave next time as well. Rahm and his boys and girls are afraid of the big bad wolf(Rove and his henchmen). If they are afraid now, why would they be less afraid in September?
I agree with the point about not tarring all Democrats with the same feather. Still, 12 no votes in the Senate is pretty disappointing.
Also, however advantageous Rove and Cheney may think this kind of so-called warfare within the liberal and progressive ranks is, it is actually a display of the Democratic Party’s greatest strength, as well as hope for its future. The Democratic Party is diverse, a constantly churning machine, and disagreements like this serve to shift dynamics within it. If people aren’t happy with the Democratic Party they’ve got, they are free to try to change it. Events like this politicize some people further, even while they de-politicize others who may walk away for a while in frustration. I don’t believe it’s wise to give up, or to adopt the other side’s habit of intra-rank alienation over battle loses or disagreements, but I can understand it in the passion of the moment. I just hope that in the end there is a net gain.
Do something that the Dems will feel and see. I call for a general strike against the Democratic party, all of it, for 3 months. Since they see fit to do what they are carping (rightfully) on the Iraqis for doing - going on a summer vacation while the war rages - in response to their ignoring a supermajority of the electorate and giving Bush a blank check, we go on full strike. Cancel your Democracy Bonds. Do NOT give any money to the DSCC, the DCCC, or any other party apparatus/organization. If you receive one of their postage-paid envelopes asking for money, send it back with a letter inside (but NO money) telling them that you are on a Democratic Party Donation Vacation for 3 months. That in response to their total capitulation (and it was total) to Mr 28%, they will be receiving NO money for 3 months. Also terminate your subscription to any and all Democratic mailing lists.
A general strike for 3 months is in order.
They ignore us when we vote them into the majority with a specific and clear mandate. They ignore us when we send faxes, make phonecalls, send emails. Let’s see them ignore a drastic drop in donation$ for 3 months.
Good God, a circular firing squad is the least of anybody’s worries.
Let the dead horse (donkey) lie and move on.
Cozumel @ 59
Exactly. That’s even worse than the recent CNN poll, which showed that 60% of Americans don’t want to end the war by cutting funding for it.
The public wants the war to end, but they’ve been trained to think that the Democrats wanted to “cut funds to the troops” when in fact the bills the Democrats had been promoting up to now provided for a fully-funded withdrawal.
And of course there’s the long-standing belief that the Democrats paid a high electoral price for ending the Vietnam War by cutting off its funding — a belief that doesn’t seem to have much basis in fact, yet is powerful and persistent.
Re: “These new neo fascist repubs are brazen about their disregard for the law and the constitution. Whether driven by ideological belief, the idea that they are doing god’s will, or a fanatical devotion to big business matters not. These people are dangerous and they will not ever play by the rules and we as democrats largely refuse to recognise this and do not fight hard enough to stop them, so perhaps a little anger is needed.”
Anger is needed to counter the unlawful fanatics, but so are well thought out investigations. If the SJC, HJC, and House Oversight Comm. can deliver a shattering blow to the White House over the next four months, I think arguably more could be accomplished by defunding/establishing a withdrawal date then than if defunding had occurred now. As commented above, even with defunding now, there is enough time and wiggle room for Bush to violently respond, potentially with an even worse outcome.
A popular analogy used in this scenario has been if you just punch a bully in the nose, he’ll skulk and back down.
The analogy that keeps popping up in my mind is that Dems are in a fight to the death with Bush/neocons. The passage of the original bill by Congress mandating a withdrawal date was like Dems grabbing the knife in Bush’s hand. Bush’s veto showed he isn’t letting go of the knife. This 4 month funding outcome is like wrestling him down to the floor with both still having a grip on the knife in what remains a deadly situation. Congress defunding the war this week would be like the knife getting jarred out both Dems’ and Bush’s hands with a scramble to be the first to pick it up.
The difference between today and four months from now is that someone else in the room could be there to step on the knife. That’s where the ongoing Congressional investigations come in. The next four months are extremely important. Cannnot let up on the pressure.
Phoenix Woman @ 64
He might be right, but the vote also shows a lack of willingness of those in Washington to do the right thing. Too many of them need a spine transplant.
Muzzy 78,
Yes.
Joe Conason had a great piece in Salon yesterday about what happened this week
http://www.salon.com/opinion/c.....iraq_plan/
I believe this is right. The Democrats keep falling into the same pothole over and over again on Iraq by allowing Rove to frame what the debate is all about. We need a more coherent and disciplined message that not only speaks to the truth about Iraq (there is no military solution) but is also compelling.
The Democratic leadership needs to get its framing act together and shift the terms of the debate. Until they do we will see the very same votes repeated over and over again.
What we suffered this week was a political failure by our leadership. It’s time to get the politics of Iraq right and God Knows we’ve got the American people on our side.
“The Good” one hour with General John Batiste and Amy Goodman at Democracy Now!
http://www.democracynow.org/ar.....25/1456242
THAT is a better situation than Bush with knife still in his hands. That is a better situation in ANY situation. If your opponent is disarmed and you need to scramble to acquire the weapon yourself, that is BETTER than your opponent holding onto the weapon.
The odds go UP in your favor in the latter case. You can also continue to pummel the shit out of the bastard while he’s on the floor while he tries to reach the fallen weapon. One way or another, you draw blood and inflict pain. And that is good.