One of the oddest experiences for me in watching US foreign affairs is how much I agree with Patrick Buchanan, a man whose politics I don't share. It's not just that he was against the Iraq war, it's that in his bones Buchanan actually seems to understand how America looks to the world. Strange thing to say about someone who is as nativist and racist as Buchanan, but over and over again I've seen it be the case.
Perhaps the most striking example is his writing on the election of Hamas.
For a textbook example of why we are hated, consider Gaza and the West Bank. There, a brutal Israeli/U.S.-led cutoff in aid has been imposed on the Palestinians for voting the wrong way in a free election.
Immediately after Hamas’s victory, Israel halted the $55 million a month the Palestinian Authority received as its share of tax and customs revenue. Israel demanded Europe and the U.S. also end all aid to the PA until Hamas renounces terror, recognizes Israel, and disarms.
President Bush, though he was conducting a worldwide crusade for democracy and had urged that the Palestinian elections be held and Hamas participate, obediently complied. For months now, U.S. and European aid to the PA, half its budget, has been halted.
The early returns are in. “Surgeons at Gaza’s biggest hospital,” says the Financial Times, “have suspended non-essential surgery for lack of sutures, laboratory kits and anesthetics.” Environmental protection agency workers have no money for petrol to monitor sewage and industrial waste entering the water supply. Some 150,000 civil servants, 60,000 of them armed security personnel, have gone unpaid for months.
Of course, since then the later returns are in, and it's fairly safe to say that for “voting the wrong way”, after the US had asked Hamas to join the elections, Palestinians are essentially being starved into submission.
America says she wants one thing, democracy, then punishes those who actually engage in it. If I were a Palestinian, would I hate the United States? Of course I would. And if you're honest, and you aren't Gandhi, odds are you would too.
What is so infuriating about America, to outsiders, is the inability of Americans to look at the world through other people's eyes. Michael Scheur, the ex-CIA analyst who wrote “Imperial Hubris” first wrote a book called “Through Our Enemies' Eyes”. Interesting that a (good) analyst would first seek to understand how his enemies saw the world, don't you think? It's not because Scheur is some pansy leftist, either, in his books Scheur has suggested that winning against Islam may require killing many many millions of Muslims and he doesn't have much of a problem with that. It's because if you don't understand your enemies it is much harder to either defeat them, or make peace with them.
And the odd thing about Through Our Enemies' Eyes is that it shows a lot of respect for the enemy. There's no bullshit blather about how people who are willing to die for their cause are cowards, for example. Indeed Scheur compares bin Laden to one of the greatest anti-slavery crusaders: John Brown, notes that he led troops from the front lines, is a trained engineer and ran successful businesses.
None of this isn't to say that Osama Bin Laden isn't a mass murderer who both Scheur and myself would be happy to see dead, but it does mean that even in a man like bin Laden there are things one should respect – bravery, intelligence, a willingness to give up wealth for the cause and an ability to inspire people so much they're willing to kill and die for him and his cause.
Now certainly I wouldn't quibble at calling him evil (nor would I quibble at calling Bush evil, as far as that goes) but I brought up bin Laden precisely because he's such an extreme case.
Let's walk back to our first example – Hamas's electoral victory. Why did Hamas win against Fatah? Well, a large part of it is that Fatah was irredeemably corrupt, and Hamas wasn't. Hamas runs schools and clinics (indeed it started out as a non-violent charity movement and moved into violence when its founder became convinced that non-violence was insufficient.) Its founder, who was assassinated by Israel along with some people unfortunate enough to be near the missile blast, once said that he would be willing to consider a 100 year truce with Israel.
Fatah had the stronger patronage operation, Hamas had respect. Hamas, because it had respect, had more control over violence against Israelis than Fatah did (Fatah can't stop it, because it has neither the military strength or the respect).
Which is to say, because Hamas was not compromised, because it had respect, and because it was the enemy of Israel, it might have been possible to make some sort of peace with them. You can only make peace with your enemies, and more specifically, you can only make peace with people who have control over those fighting you. One of the biggest problems France had when it decided to leave Algeria was finding leaders to make peace with and hand power over to – it had been too successful in killing them off. In the same way, killing the founder of Hamas was probably a mistake – because he could have signed a peace treaty – and made it stick. I doubt, at this point, that Hamas could make a peace treaty stick – they've been weakened too much.
This pattern – of being unwilling to deal with the people who actually have popular support, is a long run one for the US. The most tragic recent example is Somalia, and the Islamic Courts Union. The Islamic Courts Union swept into Mogadishu, tossed out the Warlords, who were rapacious murderers who, among other things, used to break into tin shacks, kidnap barely pubescent girls, gang rape them until they got bored, then send them back to their families.
Mogadishu had been “controlled” by these warlords for years – when the ICU took over they instituted Islamic law, and opened the port and airport for the first time in over a decade. While they weren't perhaps the ideal rulers from our point of view (that Islamic law thing) there was a huge drop off in rape, murder and assault when they were in charge. And, by and large, they appear to have had the support of the majority of Somalis in the regions they controlled, who were tired of the violence and rapine under the warlords.
The US, and indeed the West in general refused to acknowledge them as government and insisted on recognizing the provisional government set up under a UN mandate – a “government” so weak it couldn't even locate itself in Mogadishu and controlled all of one town. Then the US gave Ethiopia the green light to come into Somalia and invade, and even helped them with air power. The ICU, not having an army suited to operations against a battlefield supremacy army, was destroyed, and the survivors reformed into a resistance movement. The “government”, many of whose ministers are Warlords, took control of Mogadishu and violence returned to it.
Oh, joy. So, let's characterize this the way it should be characterized – a government with popular support was overthrown by a foreign mandated puppet government with so little popular support that it had to bring in a foreign army to fight for it.
How was all this justified in the US? The ICU was called an “Islamic Militia with ties to al-Qaeda”. Y'know, if I were bin Laden I'd fantasize at night that I had one-tenth the influence and power that the US claims I do. While al-Qaeda had some presence in Somalia and some ties to the ICU, they certainly weren't in control of it.
And then there's that phrase “Islamic militia” which seems to be code for “Islamic terrorist fanatics”. Well, y'know, there are a few major Islamic militias, of which the ICU was only one. Y'know what they all have in common – they all run (or ran) the schools and the clinics. The strongest one, Hezbollah, picks up the trash, gives out pensions (pensions!) and has a far stronger army than the nominal government does.
What do you call an organization which runs the schools, provides health care, pension, picks up trash, is supported the majority of the population (in Hezbollah's case, the Lebanese Shia it represents) and has an army?
You call it a government. In fact, you have a hard time not calling it a State, if it's walked far enough along the line. Hezbollah, in particular, is probably a stronger government and state than the official Lebanese one.
To Americans, to the extent they were even aware of it, the ICU was a bunch of terrorist thugs menacing the official government. To Somalis it was the first government in years that was able to bring peace and order to the capital and able to reopen the port and airport.
Now some might argue that while this may have been hypocritical and despicable, it was in the U S's interests. They'd be wrong – here's the deal. A recognized ICU running Somalia would be a government amenable to all the bribes and pressures a government is subject to. You could offer it loans, sell it weapons, give it food aid. You could threaten to bomb the port closed, or embargo it. You could make the case “we can give you things that al-Qaeda can never give you.”
The guerrillas who are the remnants of the ICU, and who are engaged in a guerrilla war they will probably win (the force with the support of the population usually wins such wars) now have no one they can go to for help except Eritrea... and al-Qaeda. They hate the United States and blame it for the fall of their movement and the deaths of their friends and family. If they win the war and re-establish some version of the ICU despite the US and Ethiopia they will be much more implacably hostile than they would have been otherwise. And in the meantime, a Somalia that is in the flames of anarchy makes a perfect host for al-Qaeda. If the ICU, actually controlling Somalia, had been convinced that hosting al-Qaeda wasn't in their interests, they could have easily kept al-Qaeda's influence to a minimum. That chance to deny al-Qaeda is now lost.
Let's move on, or back, to another Islamic militia. Hezbollah. Imagine you're a thirty year old Lebanese Shia. How do you view Hezbollah? Well, when you were a child, the Israelis invaded your country. The Lebanese central government was completely unable to stop them, and frankly, basically didn't even try. The Israelis then occupied the south of the country (where you live) for almost twenty years. Foreign occupiers. The only people who fought them successfully were Hezbollah. And Hezbollah didn't just fight them, it took care of you in other ways – it ran the school you were educated in. It ran the clinic you went to when you broke your arm. If someone stole from you, or harmed your family, you went to Hezbollah to get justice. And, eventually, it succeeded in driving the foreign occupiers out. At that time the Lebanese government came back in and said it was in charge of all of Lebanon, including the south. But Hezbollah still runs the schools, still runs the clinics, still picks up the trash and still gives out the pensions. And somehow the money that was used to rebuild the capital by the Lebanese “government” never seems to get to the Shia slums. But Hezbollah money does.
And what does the US, and the US media, call Hezbollah. Terrorists. Which, of course, they are. If you're Israeli. Hezbollah actually has a policy of not attacking Americans and has since the early nineties. But, of course, they killed a lot of US marines back in the eighties.
Ever wondered why?
Well, the US Navy was offshore, and they shelled Shia villages. In retaliation, Hezbollah killed a pile of marines.
Not a story you hear much, is it?
So what is Hezbollah? A resistance movement to an occupation which turned into the de-facto government for most of those who were occupied. A movement which has a stronger military than the supposed Lebanese “government”. An organization with the support of a million Shia.
For Americans as a whole there seem to be two operating theses “our enemies are always unmitigatedly evil and America is good, therefore whatever America does is good.”
There's quite a bit of variation in Islamic militias, but what they generally have in common is that they fulfill many of the roles of government, they tend to have the support of a large chunk of the population, quite often a majority, and they don't tend to be very corrupt.
On most metrics of who you'd want to be ruled by they're better than Saudi Arabia or Egypt, two governments that the US has gone to great lengths to prop up.
A sane foreign policy would stop pretending they don't exist; would stop pretending they are illegitimate and can't be talked to . The ICU wanted nothing more than it wanted peace and acknowledgment and was willing to go far to get it. As usual these days, State wanted to talk, the Vulcans wanted war, and in this case the Vulcans got what they wanted. As a result a country that could have had peace; that could have rebuilt; that could have been carefully brought back into the family of nations in a way that would deny al-Qaeda a nesting ground, has been turned into a festering war zone, returned to being a failed state, and seeded with hatred of America. It's now a perfect place for al-Qaeda to grow and thrive.
In Palestine, the US has decided to give money and arms to Fatah to try and crush Hamas. Fatah has never been able to guarantee a peace, stands a better than even chance of losing to Hamas, and if it does win due to American and Israeli aid, it won't have legitimacy in the eyes of Palestinians. Hamas, if actually destroyed, will odds on be replaced by organizations which are even more radical and violent and less amenable to peace (the pattern in Palestine hasn't been to move towards more moderate organizations over the years, to understate the case.)
In Lebanon, a US wink and nod to Israel lead to a war which humiliated America's chief ally in the area, as the supposedly most powerful military in the Middle East lost a war to a militia. Hezbollah was strengthened, not weakened. And for what – because of a kidnapping? How many Lebanese are still in Israeli jails, called “terrorists”. Well, as the Israelis themselves should know, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Hezbollah had made prisoner exchanges before, they regard Lebanese held by Israelis not as criminals or terrorists but as prisoners of war, which is entirely reasonable if you think that resisting an occupation is war, and not crime. (Occupiers tend to think it's crime.) And yet, the irony is, that what Hezbollah wants – its people back, a very small amount of land, and maps to minefields, is so minor, and so little a risk to Israel's actual security, that one has no idea why it isn't simply negotiated in exchange for a formal peace. The answer that Americans and Israelis might give is that “we don't negotiate with terrorists”. Whatever – the violence ended in Northern Ireland when terrorists were negotiated with. Hezbollah has the support of a million Shia. It isn't going away, it can't be destroyed short of committing genocide against its supporting population. And if there's one thing that's clear, it's that Hezbollah's army is professional. Nasrallah can probably enforce a peace with Israel.
And once such a peace is made, the Iranian spur against Israel, using Hezbollah, is largely a thing of the past.
In all three cases, then, talking to the “Islamic militias” would probably have produced better results than fighting them. But in all three cases, apparently talking to them was “out of the question.” In all three cases they were (and are) dismissed as illegitimate terrorist organizations, when they actually had the support of the population.
When you decide that who the population supports is unimportant, that you don't give a damn about the will of the people – the people wind up hating your guts.
America needs to stop treating its enemies as EVIL and MONSTROUS and HITLER. It needs to stop assuming that just because a movement is Islamic, it can't be negotiated with. It's not just that demonization often leads to horribly immoral acts, it's that it often leads to very bad foreign policy and to blowback which hurts the U S's interests.
And above all, Americans need to start seeing the world through the eyes of their enemies. They need to understand why others often hate them. Understanding something, in the US, is often taken as excusing it. Being judgmental comes before judging, and as soon as a regime is labeled “evil” suddenly they can't be talked to. (The definition of evil, of course, is very flexible. The Saudis and Egyptians, who supplied most of the money and men for 9/11 are good American allies, after all.) But “evil” isn't an analytical framework, and all it does is close down opportunities to actually have peace. Organizations like Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah have much less in common than they have differences, but in American discourse you'd never know that.
And that's a problem, because while one needs to be destroyed (Al-Qaeda), the other doesn't, and probably can't be. And while you can't make peace with one of them, you probably can with the other.
If America wants to be safe and secure again, Americans need to learn to start making these distinctions and needs to stop insisting on making enemies out of people who would be willing to live in peace with America. Hezbollah doesn't attack Americans, the ICU was never going to send suicide bombers to Manhattan. Palestinians wanted to have the right to choose their own government and not be punished for it.
When America stops doing the Muslim=bad short circuit, peace may be possible. When America stops saying one thing (we believe in democracy) and then doing another (but not when you vote for the wrong people), foreigners may stop hating America. In the meantime, if the US insists that every Islamic militia is its enemy – then every Islamic militia will be its enemy.
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FDL !
I am in agreement with Buchanan’s views on the Iraq War and his opnion on the undue influence the Israeli government exerts on this country’s politicians. Republicans AND Democrats.
If it was right to give the Jewish people a homeland in 1948, why then is not right to afford the same to the Palestinian people over fifty years later?
When America kicks these neocon thugs out, then we may be able to try to undo some of the horrific damage done, not only to Iraq and the whole Middle East, but our own country as well.
Ian,
Thanks for a great article!
Along the same lines, what you’re writing about here is the kind of ability to see ourselves as others see us that President Carter possessed, and which helped him to get a Nobel Peace Prize.
Unfortunately, your article will probably be lambasted by that asterisked organization whose acronym we dare not spell for fear of the filters. You will be accused of all manner of vile things for daring to tell the truth. So I hope your hatches are battened, and your timbers are shivered, for the attack that will surely come.
Thanks again,
Bob in HI
Second time today I coulda hada zed if I hadn’t stopped to read first. But that’s OK!
Bob in HI
Bob,
Carter gets a lot of flack, but bottom line - he’s the only American president to broker a lasting peace between Israel and one of its enemies. Perhaps that is because, as you say, he’s able to step outside of himself and see the world through another’s eyes.
Those who claim to be Israel’s friends should remember that Carter, whom most of them seem to despise, did more for Israel’s security than any other president.
Ian
Test 1-2-3, test, 1-2-3,…
Just checkin’ to see if everything’s workin’ OK. :o)
Best essay on US foreign policy I’ve read in a very long time.
I sure hope Carter is still healthy and active past the Bush Administration’s “Sell By” date of 1/20/07. Whoever takes over is going to need someone with the reputation of a Nobel Peace Prize winner to help reweave the tatters of the US reputation around the world.
Thanks for the post, Ian!
excellent post.
just wanted to add one thing…. it also feels like shit to know that i (throught my gov.) am responsible for causing harm to so many people.
Jimmy Carter tells it like it is on apartheid and downright racism which the Israeli government has been for decades practicing against the Palestinians. And the neocons, Republicans, blue dog Democrats and war hawks hate the former president for it.
man, you ’bout break m’heart, that’s so clear-thinking and comprehensive…
well done!
This is an outstanding post, Ian.
Thanks so much.
did i just have a post gulped?
alls it said was that that was an especially clairvoyant analysis…
.
One of my friends has just returned from a trip that included the Al Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza. She wrote,
So, you see, something as simple as trying to visit a hospital in Gaza is controled not by Palestinians, as is their right, but by Israelis, who can say Yes or No with impunity.
I recommend Jimmy Carter’s book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid
Bob in HI
Ian Welsh @ 6
Ian, Superb Job!!! Carter is the best ‘ExPrez’, he shouldn’t have had to apologize for his ‘Apartheid’ reference, he truly framed the issue properly!!! Now, if we could only shed ourselves of A*P*c’s vast influence,we could then address the Middle East’s foremost problem; the plight of the Palestinians!!!
Mods, pls edit my comment!!! *g*
Thanks so much, Ian.
Ian’s going to be posting on a regular basis here on Saturdays. I think this is an extremely auspicious beginning.
CTuttle @ 17
Thanx!!!!
I’m probably off the wall on this, but I don’t believe that the U.S. Administration gives 2 cents about Israel or anyone else. Who benefits - those who profit from the natural resources of any area that they can profit from. Same with Africa - allow genocide to take place so there are less people to have to deal with. I think it is that simple. I think they “use” Israel as an excuse to invade the middle east just like they use 9/11 to invade the middle east and will use it as an excuse to takeover any place they see potential $$$. 9/11 is their ultimate money shot. Look at the past culture of the ancestors of our fearless leader - apparently not sympathetic to future citizens of Israel. These are not “nice” people or “concerned” people that we have in office. The sooner this is dealt with the better. I know, I’m on the no fly list again…hey, but with company like Cat Stevens, I’m okay with that.
Thundering post - thanks so much, Ian.
The Palestinian suffering we’re seeing is so reminiscent of Iraq during sanctions, among other humanitarian catastrophes - when will we learn?
Jane Hamsher @ 18
Masterful entrance!!! :-)
Is Ian Welsh, Welshman?
Ian, thanks for this great round-up of our middle eastern/world problem attitude.
The right of return for Palestinians has finally got to be addressed. I always think how much more fair and, incidentally, how much cheaper it would have been to just BUY OUT the Palestinians who were willing to sell, then give aid to the small countries who took refugees in.
But, then, I thought it would be cheaper and nicer to go into North Viet Nam and offer each Viet Cong $50K to start a business rather than bomb them.
OT They’re that sensitive in alluding to them, Eh??? Whew, some kind of mojo they wield!!! HMMMM….
The real problem is simple. Again and again - if fact, almost exclusively - America has sided with tyrannical, not democratic, forces around the world. They have supported oppressors, not liberators…in El Salvador, Panama, Nicaragua, the Phillipines, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Chile, Argentina, Paraguay, Venezuela, Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, South Africa, Vietnam…
And they have done so because their puppet dictators keep their populations docile and completely helpless to stop the rapacious extraction of resources needed to fuel the American industrial miracle.
Pay off some tin pot dictator, arm him with WMDs, train his secret police, deny his human rights abuses and attempts at genocide, look the other way while he invades and terrorizes his neighbors…and then, when he becomes a liability, demonize him, turn on him, call him a war criminal, oust him, execute him or lock him up in a Florida prison.
Rinse hands clean with propaganda, and repeat.
Pinochet, Noriega, Marcos, Somoza, Shah, Saddam, Osama.
Isn’t it worth asking, at some point, why America’s friends - and the CIA’s clients - end up cast as America’s worst enemies.
Once and for all, they don’t hate you for your ‘freedom’…they hate you because, in almost every case, your goverment sides with those who hate freedom and are committed to its destruction.
“Democracy at home. Tyranny abroad! Peace for us. War for them!”
Now, there’s a slogan.
Which Democratic candidate for president would do the best job of overhauling U.S. Middle East policy and work toward a fair and just settlement of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? If my party wins in 2008, will anything change respective of the Middle East?
The Israeli governmant is lucky I am not Palestinian.
Freaked-Out Canadian @ 26
Speaking as an ExPat, I couldn’t agree more with Ya!!! ;)
LS @ 23
I’m Canadian actually, and mostly of Irish extraction, as it happens. Though I imagine there’s a welshman in the background somewhere :)
LS @ 20
israel is today–in the west, at least–what ‘jerusalem’ was in the time of saladdin: an imperial outpost of the ‘west’, a foothold in the region, a base from which to extend ifluence, and a bellweather for islamic unrest or stasis…
What is the basis of the “special relationship” we share with Israel?
It’s about time I read this on FDL. Thanks Ian.
An important correction. The Hizb are by no means exclusively Shia. Many of their best fighters and officers are Christian that’s always been the case.
You might be interested in this by Declan who writes on my site here’s a teaser:
Guest Posting by Declan: “What I Did At The Weekend”
(The link is to my old site as the photos of the Hizballah rally are important.)
PS: I served in Lebanon with UNIFIL as a felix during the civil war. Beirut and South Central Sector. My son who quite a few people here know was largely brought up in Lebanon and largely by GASP! Shia Muslims.
Leave a comment on my place would you? I’d like to get in touch.
PPS: Three comments with links coming up
Ian Welsh @ 30
I actually have spent some time in Canada. I loved it. Novi Scoti and Algonquin Park.
I don’t know who Ian Welsh is and his bio link doesn’t go anywhere. All I can say is dude didn’t just hit it out of the park, he hit it so far into the truthosphere that it’s now a bright light shining on this country’s long held general “wisdom” on all things “foreign” as it circles our internet planet. Thank you, Thank you Mr Welsh.
no kidding, kept wanting to jump down and say hello after being away from y’all all day, but could NOT stop reading . . .
this is for you Ian - it’s at the lower end of the salary scale I requested for you - but apparently there’s some flexibility wrt final grade :)
welcome back to the Lake Ian !
Oklahoma kiddo @ 27
Either Richardson or Edwards, is my guess. Richardson has excellent foreign policy chops; Edwards is the only guy to renounce the “war on terror” and “long war” tropes, and has also refused to get on board with “we need X thousand more troops.”
Dont’ like Richardson too much domestically, but in foreign policy terms he rocks.
Pete & Sun @ 34
!!!!!!!!!! yay-ya
Oklahoma kiddo at #27
Ron Paul’s the most likely from either field. And from the Dems…
Clinton’s too establishment and beholden.
Gore has some credibility.
But I’d put my money on Richardson because of his diplomatic sensibility and experience.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 31
The influence of that lobbying group that shall not be named?
Brilliant work, Ian. I’d say that it should be required reading for Americans, except that I fear they’d misunderstand it and read you as an apologist. Which is kind of your point, really, and it’s damn sad.
Cheney delivers call to arms at West Point
These are to an analysis I did during the most recent war waged against Lebanon. You might find some of it useful:
Getting Inside Their Heads (Part 1)
Getting Inside Their Heads (Part 2)
Thanks for the concise, illuminating short course in foreign policy and American lack of it, Ian. This one’s going in my study file.
Getting Inside Their Heads (Part 3) Dr. Rice’s Pangs
Well all I can say to that is wooooo hoooooo
LS @ 33
Pugwash, NS, is my ancestral home, one of the first families to colonize the North Shore(Late 1700’s, Early 1800’s)!!!
mods?
whassup guys?
i know perfectly well i just put up a post, and it aint even there waiting moderation?
about how israel is today what jerusalme was a thousand years ago: a western foothold in the region, an outpost of the colonial empire, and a barometer of “arab” opinion: if it wasn’t getting sacked, things were goinjg pretty well…
que pasa, amigos?
Cheney: winner of the ‘five-time Vietnam War deferment non-service award’. Says:
WEST POINT, N.Y. - Vice President Dick Cheney on Saturday urged the 978 new graduates of the U.S. Military Academy to provide leadership to troops fighting terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan.
He received standing ovations before and after he spoke to a crowd of about 20,000. To the emerging Army second lieutenants, Cheney appealed for them to defend freedom against those who would destroy it and carry forward the academy’s values of duty, honor and country.
Great post.
Whenever I see us (the U.S) doing such bone-headed stuff, I have to think we’re sabotaging any chance of peace on purpose. That always leads me to the next thought, that there’s much more easy money to be made in war than in peace.
Anybody ever hear of U.N. Security Resolution 242?
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 46
I’m telling Ya, Big Brother, is doing an end-around on this thread!!!
kurt (the late and vastly lamented) vonnegut, in a nutshell…
.
Ian said:
I would say that holds true domestically as well.
I take exception to Scheur’s comparison of Bin Laden to John Brown. Both saw violence as an acceptable option, but Bin Laden is the kind of person John Brown would have fought against. Brown’s inspiration for fighting slavery came from the Bible, but he supported women’s rights and didn’t care much for religious conservatives.
CTuttle @ 46
One of the best nights I ever had was camping at this amazing beach (I think it was called Petit Riviere), anyway we walked out into the water and picking mussels and seaweed. We cooked the mussels over the seaweed on the campfire and drank a bunch of Molson beer. Wow. The sky and the water were both silver. Everything was silver. I’ve been there several times. It reminded me very much of Norway. Very fragrant. I found out that geologically they had been attached at one time……
Hearth Moon @ 53
I still think it’s a fair comparison, OBL utilizes, similarly, the Kuran, although, to be fair, Mohammed never dictated suppression of Women’s right, to the contrary, his wife was a very accomplished Merchant and Literati within Mecca, prior to marrying him!!!
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 47
i read it refresh the page
Idealistic Pragmatist @ 40
*waves Hi IP * :)
LS@54, don’t let Petrocelli know you drank Molson’s, he won’t let you live it down!!! *g*
There’s great line in Conrad’s Heart of Darkness. As the boatload of colonialists approaches the African shore, Marlow sees a group of local blacks paddling in the surf and comments,
I’ve often wondered why it is just taken as a matter of course that the US can meddle in the internal affairs of almost every developing country - invading, sponsoring coups, effecting and attempting assasinations, building military bases (over 700 worldwide), bribing officials, sanctioning and blockading countries…….when any one of those would be seen as an act of war if inflicted on the USA itself.
Pick any country outside the continental US and merely ask, “What is the American excuse for being there?”
Local insurgents may be bad guys, but they have the moral advantage of being…well…local.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 52
I think he corrupted me for good.
/s
AP - Americans have opened nearly 1,000 new graves to bury U.S. troops killed in Iraq since Memorial Day a year ago. The figure is telling — and expected to rise in coming months.
markfromireland @ 42
Thanks Mark. You know more of the details than I do, and this is indeed useful. I left a comment over at GG’s as well.
CTuttle @ 59
It was soooooooooo goooooooooood.
This is Ian’s blog The Agonist
Ian, great post.
Ian has posted at FDL before. Same thoughtful commentary.
(OT And Ian, thanks for getting the info posted on your blog as to his on NARAL natl. board of directors.)
So, Ian, fix that link ;)
Ian- okay- I see you fixed the link.
VIENNA — As Iran races ahead with an illicit uranium enrichment effort, nearly a dozen other Middle East nations are moving forward on their own civilian nuclear programs. In the latest development, a team of eight U.N. experts on Friday ended a weeklong trip to Saudi Arabia to provide nuclear guidance to officials from six Persian Gulf countries.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 61
A thousand since last Memorial Day??? Stop This Madness Now!!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 62
I, for once, am speechless, and that is probably a good thing at this moment.
If I may give a perseonal example - “Gorilla’s Guides” is mostly written by Irakis from Irak most of them work for humanitarian organisations. This week my friends and colleagues, people I�ve known since I was a young man, attended 23 funerals.
If you ever want to know why America is so hated - that’s why.
One of the writers on my site in the last 3 years has endured the following:
His grandfather shot in front of his eyes - he was 13 at the time. Here’s his description:
This year:
His brother along with many of his brother’s rescue team were killed in a cascaded bombing attack as they ran to rescue victims of the first bombing.
Hussein was 17.
His father killed during this year’s Arba’een massacres.
His mother died of her wounds sustained during the same attack the next day.
Aged 16 Mohammed Ibn Laith is the head of a household consisting of himself, a sister who is in full throes of a nervous breakdown, and his younger brother Ali who is 8.
This is what he had to say to American visitors to our site:
Really it’s about time America and Americans started behaving like civilised human beings in the Middle East wouldn’t you say? Because as Ian points out -
good post Ian, thx.
markfromireland @ 33 -
so very, very glad to see you here again mark. have really missed your comments.
Hearth Moon @ 53
I agree. However, Scheur’s points of similarity, airc, were that both saw what they considered an injustice; both were able to rally others to their cause; and both were willing to use violence to achieve their ends.
One episode I didn’t mentionion in the post, but that really got a lot of Muslims worked up, was the Iraqi sanctions and more specifically Albright, when asked if half a million Iraqi children’s deaths were worth it to keep Saddamn pinned, said “yes.”
The cry that Bin Laden makes (maybe I’ll analyze some of his speeches for FDL one time) is fundamentally this - “why is your blood red and our blood meaningless?”
And Iraq, in which American casualties are detailed down to the last soldier, while Iraqi casualties are deliberately not even counted, has just continued to make his point with other Muslims.
Bin Laden’s a mass murderer. But one shouldn’t underestimate his appeal, or the way that US policy keeps confirming what he says. America plays into bin Laden’s hands over and over again. It’s like watching a matador fighting a mastadon - the mastadon should be able to trample him under, but somehow it doesn’t happen.
MarkfromIreland 70,
We get it. We are fighting.
Ian, thanx for a most informative post. 2 minor items -
1) Osama did run successful businesses. Compare and contrast with GW. Arbusto & Harken Energy anyone? Plus didn’t he trade some a-list ball player for nothing during his tenure as head of the TX Rangers or something? And weren’t the Bin Ladens business partners of his?
2)Pat Buchanan a “voice of sanity” compared to these damned bushies - yee cats, never in my wildest…
Great post!
You won’t see me again here for a while Selise :-( , and thanks for the welcome, I’m back home in Denmark just for a short trip and go back to Irak in a few days.
darms @ 75
Wasn’t Osama’s brother W’s roomate at one time. Heeeellllooooo!!!!!
Markfromireland, let us pray for the Iraqi Assembly to assert their will and request our prompt departure!!! Since, we failed so miserably within our own House!!!
markfromireland @ 77
blessings to you and your family mark.
(i hope you don’t mind that i say that)
markfromireland @ 77
Hvis du bor i Danmark, da kan du vel sjonne hvor vanskelig det her nu it dette landet. Ikke sandt?
What? Link please.
‘n I think Zippy the Pinhead nailed it on 02/03/2007
Eureka Springs @ 82
I’ll go find it…I know he has about 50,000 brothers or something…:}
Ian thanks hope you find it useful. Declan who wrote the piece on the Hizb rally was btw the best sergeant I ever had the honour of commanding he’s a very shrewd observer of the Lebanese scene. He’s being way too modest about his command of Arabic which is excellent.
Thanks for the comment at my place - I’ll be in touch :-)
No Selise I certainly don’t mind I am after all a practicing and believing Catholic a word with the man upstairs on my family’s behalf is always welcome :-)