Okay, so maybe it's too early to be thinking about a Democratic President, but David Brooks, William F. Buckley, Robert Novak, Glenn Greenwald, Christy, and, well, me are all predicting a bleak future for a Grasping Old Party that can't get out from under its many epic disasters mistakes. The Iraqupation is having roughly the same effect on Rebubblican candidate recruiting as it is on military recruiting (and the opposite effect on al Qaeda recruiting), so unless the war ends before the election, or the Republicans start running on the Harry Reid The-War-Is-lost-And-I-Will-Get-Us-Out platform (don't count on it), I don't think it's too premature to start thinking about what comes next.
That is to say, after five or six years as a purely oppositional entity, the liberal blogosphere could very well find itself on the same side of the ideological fence as the White House. How will we handle it? Will we cover for our leaders even when they're wrong, or will we hold their feet to the fire to try to keep them honest?
Jonathan Chait believes that we desire nothing more than to emulate the conservative message machine (emphasis added):
The notion that political punditry ought to, or even can, be constrained by intellectual honesty is deeply alien to the netroots. They have absorbed essentially the same critique of the intelligentsia that the right has been making for decades. In the conservative imagination, journalists, academics, and technocrats are liberal ideologues masquerading as dispassionate professionals. Those who claim to be detached from the political struggle are unaware of their biases, or hiding them.
(...)
The prevailing sentiment here, however, is not a distrust of pointy heads. Rather, it's a belief that political discourse ought to be judged solely by its real-world effects. The netroots consider the notion of pursuing truth for its own sake nonsensical. Their interest in ideas, and facts, is purely instrumental.
....To [Salon's Joan] Walsh and other journalists, the relevant metric is true versus untrue. To an activist, the relevant metric is politically helpful versus politically unhelpful.
There is a term for this sort of political discourse: propaganda. The word has a bad odor, but it is not necessarily a bad thing. Propaganda is often true, and it can be deployed on behalf of a worthy cause (say, the fight against Nazism in World War II). Still, propaganda should not be confused with intellectual inquiry. Propagandists do not follow their logic wherever it may lead them; they are not interested in originality. Propaganda is an attempt to marshal arguments in order to create a specific real-world result--to win a political war.
I think I may have missed a memo somewhere. Are we rabidly ideological? Absolutely. But propagandists unconcerned about intellectual honesty? Um, no; I think Chait has us confused with someone else - most of the big-name (and smaller-name) liberal bloggers I know of are actually pretty scrupulous, at least as far as my poor biased lefty brain can tell. It's kind of our brand.
I would hope that if when the Democrats retake the White House and consolidate their Congressional majorities, we will be just as intolerant of lawlessness and unaccountability in our own party as in the Republican Party. Indeed, not only could we then tell Chait to go suck eggs, but the occasional friendly kick in the pants may even save the Democrats from the fatal complacency and inertia which loosened their decades-long grip on Congress back in the 1980s. Perhaps if the blogosphere had started thirty years earlier, the "Republican Revolution" would never have happened.
But my biggest worry is that a Democratic President might decide that because BushCo. has screwed the country over so badly, they need to make use of some of those special Unitary Executive Powers that Dubya grabbed for himself, but they promise to give them right back when everything's fixed. While a part of me would get a kick out of that, I really do want the Democrats to be the party that plays by the rules and respects the Constitution and the rule of law.
What will make this keep-'em-honest effort especially tricky is that the Republicans and media will supply a neverending stream of fake Democratic screwups, as we have seen already with the bogus attacks on Pelosi and Reid. So not only will we have to keep the Democrats honest, but we will also have to distinguish between false charges which must be rebutted, and real charges which require words and action on our part. The good news is, we'll have two years of practice under our belts before President ObamaClintonEdwardsGore takes office, and we're much smarter than the wingnuts. Hell, I bet the MyDD guys have it all figured out already.
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WHat’s up Eli?
Hiya, TM!
Shot any martinis for me yet?
Hey Eli!
No, sorry - I haven’t been around any. There’s a slight chance I might have an opportunity next month, though.
Can we at least get pledges from the Dems that they won’t go on shows like AI and do little Ole and Lena sketches? Guess this was what he was savin’ from the WH Corres. dinner.
Hiya, ccm!
Evening, Eli!
Had a conversation with a friend of mine today, and I told him that it was as much an insider/outsider thing as it was a liberal/conservative thing. I made the analogy of the (mostly) clueless people who work in corporate headquarters and how they get so myopic and attached to their power.
Think I heard that song in a movie once… can’t quite recall the title.
Hiya, Loo Hoo!
Twisted Martini @ 9
I think that’s true, and I have no doubt that if a Democratic president sells us out to corporate interests (i.e., Net Neutrality maybe), we will not sit still for it.
^ That would be a lot funnier if the video didn’t include clips from the movie.
My timing is off today.
The Democrats, if they’re not careful, will be snookered by the Republicans and left holding the bag. On a variety of issues. Most glaringly, Iraq. And the whole Mideast debacle. My party might actually get to preside over the last world war.
Eli, I hope you forgive me but I have to go a little off topic a little too soon…my sincere apologies but this can’t be buried and has to be examined so the democrats are prepared for the inevitable;
the recourse the boyking already told us he would do if he can’t get what he wants in a funding bill is more frightening then anyone has mentioned and I’m surprised nobody picked up on it
he said;
“I will take funding from other programs”
yes, he said that, yes, that means social security, yes that means the pension insurance funds, veterans benefits
yes, that’s what it means
Pat Buchanon thinks he’s a smart cookie. His job is to keep knocking Dems no matter what and then he thinks it wiol open the door for him to slip in and run in 2008. Isn’t there anything we can shut his mouth with and knock him off the air??
perris @ 14
Well, that’s perfectly in character, really.
Eli says:
Well, let’s see: Adam Clayton Powell was a Dem congressman expelled by a Democratic controlled house before winning his seat back. And Alcee Hastings was impeached by a Dem House and Convicted by a Dem Senate so it’s not like it hasn’t happened before.
eli!
i am very happy today to be able to say “you were right and i was wrong”.
i really thought bush would take the money for his stupid endless war/occupation. i thought he’d be nuts to veto a funding bill with such large loopholes for him to use.
i was wrong! yeah!
dakine01 @ 17
Well, let’s see: Adam Clayton Powell was a Dem congressman expelled by a Democratic controlled house before winning his seat back. And Alcee Hastings was impeached by a Dem House and Convicted by a Dem Senate so it’s not like it hasn’t happened before.
That’s what I’m talkin’ about. “We’re Democrats - we don’t tolerate that sort of activity.”
Liberals are just as susceptible to emotional excess as the right is. And I would expect the corporate media to goad us on in that direction.
But we ought not to count our eggs just yet. Let’s win elections first ok?
selise @ 18
Heh. And now it becomes a game of chicken. The troops need money eventually, so who blinks first?
If there is no external accountability mechanism like the blogosphere, then the Dems can become just as corrupted by their power as the Gambinos. If we help elect more outsiders like Jon Tester, they will be more connected to their roots and less likely to get poisoned.
Eli @ 21
2 months of funding at a time. then it’s up to everyone (especially us) to convince enough republicans to vote to end the war and override a veto.
Of course,Perris, that’s if you think Social Security money is still there.
Eli @ 21
That’s right. A blame game of sorts. The Dems were going to do such and such, so I had to do this. And the reverse.
perris @
14
And the moment he does you can kiss the GOP goodbye for a VERY long time.
Twisted Martini @ 22
Not can, *will*. I have no doubt of it.
Public election financing would help - I think a lot of the corruption is a result of the perpetual scramble for campaign funds.
Oh Honestly! We’re bigger than that!
noen @ 26
And the moment he does you can kiss the GOP goodbye for a VERY long time.
Well, okay, but I’ll have to get my lips bleached afterwards.
noen @ 26
Legally — can he do that? I mean I know the law doesn’t mean anything to these people, but is it within the law?
ccmask @
24
I forget which Republic admin started raiding the fund first but I’m thinking it was Nixon. Which is why it’s just a bunch of pieces of paper/IOUs in a file cabinet in the chimpenfuhrer’s words.
Texas Betsy @ 30
He’ll just declare that it’s legal. He’s the decider ya know.
Eli @ 21
nancy has the upper hand and needs to push the “why are you refusing to give the funding for the troops we are providing?”
“why are you under the impression you are the sole “decider” how this engagement is prosecuted, you are not..you work for the American people, they are not happy at all with your supposed military knowledge and they are sure we need a differant direction”
and;
“the American people elected a new congress to procide the military expertise you have lacked.
it is our sworn obligation to exact that expertise and unlike some who don’t take their oath defending our constitution seriously, we intend to fullfill our oath of office”
stuff like that
noen @ 26
You hit the nail on the head. time for a bong.
Well, Oprah on Larry King, just nominated Obama. She said she has nothing against Hillary and likes her very much, but she is for Obama. How big is Oprah’s following???
ccmask @ 24
he will borrow money from future revenue, just as he has borrowed everything and given it to his pals
the democrats have to SLAM HIM DOWN for making this bizzare claim
Eli @ 16
perris @ 14
So it means that rather than fund this through…Hmmm!…deficit spending (hence passing on the trillion bucks for the war to our progeny to worry about)…he will attempt to funnel it out of programs leaving them bankrupt…for US to deal with.
I hate to say this…but THAT sounds like the more honest deal. There is no more hocus-pocus…smoke-and-mirrors.
Here’s the Democratic Congresses response. “You want the money but don’t want timetables? You are going to ILLEGALLY AND UNCONSTITUTIONALLY threaten already mandated programs approved by Congress? Here’s what we will offer:
1) Every two months you will get a spending authorization. It will be pay-as-you-go. No more hiding this in a deficit.
2) The war costs will be paid for by a special tax charged against…not retirees, not children and mothers that need hospitalization, not veterans, not the poorest and weakest, not the middle class, not students who need educations.
The taxes to pay for this war will come from those that are profitting from it…THE OIL COMPANIES making absurd profits, the war profiteers who manufacture the weapons and machinery of combat, the wealthiest five percent.
They will pay for this war, and we will insure that they will pay until ALL the costs of this war are paid back!”
ccmask @ 35
Endorsed? Her following is HUGE.
Evening folks. If Bush robs other programs to fund his war, he will face a Congress that *can and will* override his veto power.
I totally agree about public funding of elections. Levels the playing field in a way that scares the living shit out of the insiders.
bill @ 39
Thank you. That was the answer I was looking for.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 13
The Iraq war belongs to the republic party. It is the republics who want this war to continue in perpetuity. All the spin to the contrary isn’t going to change that fact.
Back on topic:
I think that if the pendulum swings our way again that, sure, there is a possibility that the blogosphere will be susceptible. But we should also remember that we are not living in the bubble that the DC pundocrats live in. It is their isolation from the realities of everyday folk that is their problem and they don’t even know it.
cinnamonape @ 37
VERY very nice, see, we can work it out for the democrats take forward…for instance I am pretty darned certain reid and pelosi’s aids read here at the lake because some of the stuff they’ve been releasing is very close to our wish list here at the lake
Twisted Martini @ 40
Oh, it would be fucking *huge*. It also sidesteps that whole “money is speech” bullshit.
tbsa @ 42
Yes. If the Republicans run on the George W. Bush I-Will-Keep-You-In-Iraq-Forever platform, they are toast. Period.
I’ve been thinking about the future, too, under a Democratic President and Congress. first I would like a chance to tell our leaders what we want - a turning back of all the absolutely evil changes made to our constitution - repeal of the Patriot Act, reaffirmation of the Geneva Convention - a systematic closing of all the rendition camps as well as Gitmo - a turning away from the “unitary executive” concept. In other words, first clean up the dirt Bush has left.
Then, a steering of this nation toward the environment problem, including alternative fuels, mandates on the auto industry to create autos that are not gas guzzlers.
Then, a serious, dispassionate look at health care under a single payer system.
Then, folding up and putting in storage this No Child Left Behind misnomer.
As to attitude toward the people, don’t treat us as morons who don’t understand what’s going on. Be open with the Congress; stop using executive privilege as to information, etc., when at all possible. Be truthful. Work at regaining the trust of the people and of other nations - it will take a long time.
Many many more initiatives. I didn’t have all my thoughts together when I started this comment. I would like to read what anyone wants to add to this. I will compile the list.
Just watched Countdown and couldn’t avoid listening to Bush announce his veto and call the Democrats names again. I’m tired of this.
I agree that it’s important for us to hold the Dems feet to the fire about renouncing Bush’s power grabs, and passing laws to cover all those “no law against it because it’s so obviously wrong” areas that Bush has exploited. I honestly don’t think that part will be too hard, because I believe all of our candidates are people who will listen to the professionals who say these things aren’t worth the cost, instead of think-tank ideologues who are sure they know better.
But in the longer term I think the harder fights will be public campaign financing and media reform. Those will be the routes by which we can save the national Dems from the danger of corporate-fed complacency, but it won’t be easy.
Twisted Martini @ 40
it’s the only way we can keep corporations from buying our law
let’s take this further;
now that the democrats hold the reigns and will get the majority of the money from big bussiness it seems there might be some republicans that will think public funding is a good idea
now that the money is going to go to the democrats a bill for government funding of campaigns might be easier to accomplish then we realize
You are a clever lad, Eli, and I truly enjoyed your post that slowly raises an eyebrow.
My kind of writing.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but my feeling is government is a mechanism to benefit the majority of people with certain pauses to protect certain minorities.
This is the fuel that powers our system, and any attempt to pervert it with money, (big pharma, big oil, NRA, tobacco, etc) short circuits the system. It does not matter if a
Republican or Democrat is assphukking America.
perris @ 44
Perris–
Cassie wants to know if she can borrow that for her letter to Congress, posted on her website.
Eli @ 45
You know that these weasel shits on both sides would find loopholes, they always do. Can you say 503b?
noen @ 43
Yes. And this kind of feedback is something that I don’t think they had the last time around. The collective netroots are harder to ignore than just a few letter-writing “little people”.
OT…
How come we never hear any Iraqis being interviewed about their country?
perris @ 44
Is this just a fantasy though? Would our real Dem leaders actually do this? I wonder, I really wonder.
Another ANTI-Science bushie flees the crime scene:
“Julie MacDonald’s reign of terror over the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is finally over,”
noen @ 43
Seems to me that the value of the blogosphere is what Al Gore called a marketplace of ideas. So long as access is available to the mass of people, it will function as a check in the fashion of the free press as originally described by the founders of our nation.
Jonathan Chait is, of course a graduate of the Marty Peretz School of Journalism,
otherwise known as The New Republic.
As are Charles Krauthammer, Mickey Kaus, Dana Millbank, Andrew Sullivan and Peter Beinart,
to name but a few of the glittering stars in the journalistic firmament which this fine seat of
civil, intellectual discourse has produced over the years.
Flush twice.
Raven, the devil is always in the details, but it seems to have worked in Arizona and elsewhere.
SanderO @ 54
Cause the press would have to bleep out ever single word before USA.
tbsa @ 42
Last time I checked many Dems voted to invade Iraq. Including my party’s front runner. And should the Iraq war bleed into a possible Democratic Administration beginning in 2009, then who’s war is it?
SanderO @ 54
They don’t control the oil so we can obviously discount anything they may say. After all, they weren’t willing to get rid of Saddam so how good can they be? /snark off
Marilyn, I agree completely, across the board.
OFG, thank you! We must never forget who the government is supposed to belong to.
Texas Betsy @ 51
anything I post here at the lake is for all firedogs to do as they wish…however I was quoting another firedog who was responding to my wish list, credit cinnamonape @ 37
perris @ 14
Then he’ll have to be impeached.
allan_in_upstate @ 58
You’re gonna have to break that one up with the toilet brush…
Twisted Martini @ 59
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see it. I’m just a real cynic.
Oklahoma kiddo @
13
It’s gonna unravel before 2008.
-GSD
Texas Betsy @ 38
Well, fer sure. But, don’t you think she came off really bad in Moyer’s special about the media’s role in the build-up (and continues) of the War?
Was I the only one who hoped people who Worship her saw through the Fog Of War?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 61
Well, one big difference is that the Republicans continued to back the war to the hilt even *after* it became obvious to everyone that it’s a total clusterfuck…
allan_in_upstate @ 58
Break ‘em up with a plunger first.
-GSD
dmoore @ 69
Oh, that was cringemaking. I just wish it had been on a more widely-viewed network, but of course, that would be impossible - it’s a minor miracle it even showed up on PBS.
ga DAMN it, I want to go to bed but this thread is TOO MUCH INFORMATION AND TOO MUCH FUN!!
now STOP it soz I can doz
Eli @ 45
That’s another Republican “big lie” that we need to find better ways of knocking down. There are some court cases that support the “money=speech” concept, but the record is very mixed, so it’s by no means well-established. Perhaps, every time a wingnut claims “money=speech” as fact, it would help to point out that it’s much less settled legally than the right to abortion.
P.S. Eli,
I got EPU’ed on the last thread Allow me to cut and paste here. And I would like your input, if possible, which may not be if your demands of time are the same as mine:
I finally broke down and put up a post on my own blog that deals somewhat with this subject of the current sate of journalism. My primary reference was the Bill Moyers piece, “Buying the War”.
I know, I’m about a week behind the curve over here.
It’s a pretty good piece, I think, establishing the current pressures on the media. Granted, I did not go nearly far enough, but as is my habit, I tend to undersell and let the readers sort of fill in the blanks.
It is why I really like the blogosphere, at least the left 90%, where folks do not need to be spoonfed.
Anyway, I hope the lakers over here enjoy it, I intended to send it to the ladies of the lake for first crack, but I was so immensly proud of myself for actually getting back to blogging, I hit the publish button.
I hope the learned and involved people of the lake take the time to read it and add to it if it is worthy. Just click my name for the site, it is the top post.
Sorry for the blatant blogwhoring, but my posting is geting so rare, and fdler’s have been so encouraging to me, I just thought I would let folks know it’s out there.
Thanx.
For myself, abuse of power has no ideological boundaries.
If the ‘Left’ in future emulates what the ‘Right’ currently embodies, they will be treated with the same disdain and scorn by me…And perhaps even worse, for it is about the hypocrisy after all.
‘Set the example, or be the example’
perris @ 64
OK. It’s up. http://youthinkleft.com/2007/05/01/dear-congress/
ccmask @ 35
With all due respect for Oprah, she has been known to be wrong, and has had to retract her advocacy for I believe an author of a book? Sorry, I don’t remember which book or author.
Point is even Oprah can make a mistake. At this stage of the game, I personally have no choice. The verdict is still out in my mind.
I doubt most people are putting much stock in Oprah’s recommendations at this point. But what do I know???? Who knows, Oprah may change her mind too.
Checking it out now, OFG. You have the same template as my old blog…
Eli @ 72
Ya know (doncha?) that Moyers was a Baptist Preacha? So…maybe it was a miracle. But, nevertheless…people are still talking about his piece. (The Lord works in mysterious ways…I’ve heard.)
Texas Betsy @ 41
I was trying to clarify it on the earlier thread, Bush can’t arbitrarily divert funds! He can do it within DoD, but, he can not wave his wand over all congressionally approved funding! Let me reiterate, Shrub has authority to divert funds, intradepartmentally!, not, interdepartmentally!!!
Redshift @ 74
one of the most important things we need to do which addresses the “free speech” issue;
we need to rescind “personhood” for corporations
if a conglomerate wants to enjoy the corporate umbrella and “cone of protection” (forgive me maxwell smart) there is a trade
corporations are not people and should not enjoy “constitutional protection”
that’s etched for “the people”
we are a government “for the people and by the people”, we are NOT a government “for corporations and by corporations”, though that is the intention of the neo fascist movenemt, that is not the American concept of government and it is not a part of “the great experiment”
Time for Mr. Chait to write that one great novel he’s always thinking about. He has the fiction part down.
Eli @ 53
Let me tell you a story about bubbles.
Here in Minn I listen to MPR, on the morning interview show several months ago they had a couple of economists from the east coast. Don’t remember their names. But they blathered on and on until this local farmer called in. He complained to them that they were out of touch and he talked about how he had to turn his thermostat down to 56 degrees because he couldn’t afford to heat his house. They kind of just laughed it off and kept talking about how great the economy was doing blah blah blah…
I wanted to call these morons and ask them to look outside their condo windows and see if they saw any farmers growing food with their name on it. But no, these people will not get a clue until they go shopping and find empty shelves. “whaaaaa??? but but… the economy is doing so well.. what happened?”
That is how they will learn.
I blame my party for getting us into this Iraq thing every bit as much as I do the Republicans. And as to Democratic front runner Hillary Clinton, as far as war and the Middle East is concerned, I trust her far less than I am comfortable with.
Eli, nice post, but, it ignores the simplest and ugliest reality. As does this blog, time after time.
As do most blogs.
It ain’t ABOUT the rethugs.
It’s about the A*P*C’s, it’s about Corporate Americanism, it’s about munitions, it’s about the MIC and it’s about the have’s and have nots.
There is NO Dem running other than perhaps Kuch, Gravel, and MAYBE, a VERY couched maybe, Gore (he’s taken money from places I mistrust, so I don’t trust him like I trust Kuch).
And for the most part, the Dem’s are gonna wage war in the middle east, and claim the Islamofacists are gonna rape our wives, daughters and sisters. Just like the Rethuggery’s.
What manner of bullshit is this all? It’s in DIRECT opposition of the kind of blogging WE THE PEOPLE need to have . . . in order to take action on a LARGE scale, be it electoral, be it campaigning, be it life changing cuz you opened a window and shouted you won’t take it anymore.
The planet’s shot.
It’s overcrowed.
I’ts losing is fishery’s.
It’s losing it’s crop lands.
It’s losing it’s species, one by one, OUT of proportion to history’s annuals other than HUGE planet chanes. These are changes the human race have foisted upon itself.
Now, take them bullet points, and change this planet, for THIS COUNTRY!
Shot to hell, thru and thru.
And more woe on the way.
Someone stand up, and DO something.
Shilary is unelectable, and she’s a REthug.
So are most of the rest of them.
Obama wants to wage war, and keep options on the table for Iran. What fuckery is THIS crap?
Until this country’s people, person for person, figger this out, it’s a hopeless Big Brother Victory.
And THIS blog, is NOT singing the praises of the masses . . . it’s as elitist as any of the other corp pac’s.
Harumph. What fuckery, indeed.
Edited with *’s by Mod
ok, must sleep, must earn tomorrow, cannot earn if cannot sleep
g’night firedogs
Oklahoma kiddo @ 61
The war of the pResident who elected to continue it by his veto of a bill to add timetables. Also, the republics in congress who don’t have the balls to stand up against chimpco and override that veto. The dems are doing what they can to bring this clusterfuck to an end. The republics started this war based on steaming pack of lies, and have voted to continue this war time and again not the dems.
Perris and Cinnamonape — Got the attribution straghtened out.
Oilfieldguy @
75
OFG: Great post but may I sugest an update: The folks who were Knight Ridder are now McClatchey (sp?) but seem to be still doing the same level of investigation/b*llsh*t disinfectant.
ccmask @ 35
huge!
Nancy Pelosi asked for signatures expressing outrage that a good bill was vetoed-
http://www.dccc.org/action_cen.....ce_center/
What bullshit! If someone is lying or distorting the facts, I’ll criticize them, regardless of their politics. Of course, on second thought, Chait is no doubt just projecting. Repugs think that that kind of thing is what power is for, and about.
PeterK @ 92
If a spade is a spade, well….
Guiliani might have touble explaining this to the voters: from Raw Story Dirty Air Rudy