
Yes, it's all Rosie O'Donnell's fault:
O'Donnell wasn't the only one to suggest religion had influenced the justices' approach. The Philadelphia Inquirer published a cartoon Friday entitled "Church and State" that featured the five Catholic members of the court wearing bishop miters.Joseph Cella, president of the Catholic-based organization Fidelis, called the cartoon "venomous, terribly misleading and blatantly anti-Catholic."
"The Supreme Court did not 'follow marching orders' from the Vatican or the bishops in the United States," Cella said. "Instead, the court deferred to deliberative judgment of the people's elected representatives protected by the Constitution."
But academics, including the former dean of the University of Chicago Law School, also have said the Catholic faith of the five justices influenced their thinking in the case Gonzales vs. Carhart.
"All five justices in the majority in Gonzales are Catholic," wrote Geoffrey Stone, now a professor at the law school, in a faculty blog. "The four justices who either are Protestant or Jewish all voted in accord with settled precedent. It is mortifying to have to point this out. But it is too obvious, and too telling to ignore."
Stone said it was "sad" that the justices in the majority had "failed to respect the fundamental difference between religious belief and morality."
University of Chicago Law School professor Richard Garnett wrote a critical response, saying Stone "misses the mark" in suggesting the justices imposed their religious views on people who do not share their beliefs. Garnett earlier had strongly criticized the Inquirer cartoon.
Garnett said what troubled him was the claim that the justices voted to uphold the ban because they are Catholics "and not because they think, as intelligent and engaged lawyers, that the Constitution does not disable legislatures entirely from regulating what most people (not just Catholics, fideists, and sexists) regard as a particularly gruesome abortion procedure."
As Dr. Suzanne Poppema noted yesterday on the Warren Olney show, she doubts that there are any abortion procedures that would not be considered gruesome and unacceptable to the right-to-lifers. Medicine is icky, and the notion that women just sashay in and order up a D&E like they would a mocha java latte is nuts. It's a rarely performed procedure and only a doctor would know if it was medically necessary. And to classify Kennedy's sexist, patronizing language as that of an "intelligent engaged lawyer" is a bit of a stretch.
I don't know for certain if the five Catholic justices were influenced by their religious beliefs, nobody can, but it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that their decisions -- which in Kennedy's case seemed highly emotional, irrational and buying into extreme mysoginistic right-wing canards -- may have been influenced by the fact that they subscribe to a faith that thinks abortion is both murder and a mortal sin. It's not anti-Catholic bigotry and those who want to shut down the conversation by screaming that it is just don't want to argue on the merits because really, they probably have none.
This cartoon posted with express permission to Firedoglake from Tony Auth of the Philadelphia Inquirer.
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C H O I C E !!!
Jane, you will love this Sargent cartoon: Sargent. It gets to the point.
It’s not that they’re Catholic. It’s that they’re all fundamentalist Catholics. And they’re all male fundamentalist Catholics.
The only bigotry here is the anti-woman bigotry. They mustn’t be left to their own choices.
and aren’t we glad we have all that dry powder now.
Today, whyy’s radio times discussed the issue. PA State Representative Tom Yewcik was saying that he supports requiring women seeking an abortion to view sonograms of the fetus. he said it was for “educationla purposes”, but when the host asked why, Yewcik couldn’t explain himself. he is a truly odious man who kept babbling about sanctity of life,.
You can listen to the show online: listenign to Yewcik get smacked around by pretty much every single caller was a pleasure. He also claimed that intact D&E is NEVER medically necessary, only to be countered by a caller who had an intact D&E, for a baby she wanted but wasn’t going to live.
Interstingly, he mentioned the effectiveness of adoption, so in a moment I’m goign to call an ask how many kids HE’s adopted personally. The answer is almost certainly zero.
It is obvious that Kennedy could not seperate in his mind science and sentiment. Science seems to lose out with this administration and it is affecting the court too.
women either
(a) have choice
(b) have forced pregnancies
end of discussion …
any quetions?
sorry Jane. you probably don’t ever want to hear that lame excuse again.
I suspect their religious views did influence their votes.
I wouldn’t go as far as saying they do what they’re told - but the RC hierarchy has been pretty open about pressuring politicians to vote ‘the right way’ rather than with the constitutional rights of their constituents in mind.
And the RC hierarchy is assuming that church members support the official positions. My understanding is that those official views are held by a minority.
(I like that cartoon.)
OT.
Anyone else know Nancy Pelosi has her own youtube channel? Good stuff! Lots of Tillman hearing posts.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=NancyPelosi
How fair can it be when you consider yourself to be choosing between Heaven and Hell?
As far as the Catholic Justices are concerned, they did vote along settled precedent.
radiofreewill @ 11
Huh? How exactly did they do that? Settled precedent is that such decisions are a matter of doctor-patient privacy.
How exactly does Kennedy’s majority opinion even address that settled precedent?
Will open-heart surgery next be denied on the grounds that it is life-threatening and “gruesome”? (Have you ever seen one on television?) Since when does “gruesome” have any standing when it comes to making medical decisions? You wanna talk about gruesome, let’s talk about the side effects associated with any number of drugs that have been approved by the FDA — many of which are still on the market. Let’s talk about how grossly understaffed the USDA inspectors are and how limited their authority is in Bushworld. That’s gruesome.
btw, it’s “sashay”. “Sachet” is something you use to make your underwear drawer smell nice. Sashay is what you do to let folks know you’ve got sweet-smelling drawers. ;-)
Jane,
You’re right, we can never know if the justices in the majority voted their religious beliefs rather than their legal judgment, but it is certainly eerie the way the voting broke down with all the Catholics voting to overturn precedent and all the non Cathloics voting to maintain precedent.
It certainy LOOKS suspicious.
looseheadprop @ 15
Time to check Kennedy’s ass for scourge marks.
Brava, Jane, and I also think this is worth noting:
Slothrop @ 3
It’s a valid point to note that if the majority were all fundamentalist protestants, you’d get the same result, or worse.
hang the traitors at 7 — On point comment. But we don’t allow violence in the comments, and that includes in nicknames on posts. If you could modify your nickname, I would very much appreciate it. Otherwise, our moderators are going to have to pull comments and I hate for them to have to do that. Thanks.
Just out of curiosity, was “asscribe” a deliberate typo? It could also be used in reference to decisions handed down by jurists who have their heads lodged firmly in their posterior(s).
The cartoon says it all! It isn’t venomous, it is so true that it’s hilarious.
“sashay”, I think, Jane………
You are right on the money…. using the word ‘gruesome’ is deliberately emotive. Personally, I find needles being stuck intop someone else in front of me very gruesome, and a bloody great surgical slit for taking out a gall bladder gruesome too. Removing three charred bodies from a burnt-out armoured car was pretty gruesome too.
I believe the five justices in question are, or have claimed to be, practising their roman faith. In which case, surely, they should have recused themselves as unable to separate Church and State as far as they themselves were concerned.
Since time immemorial there have been abortions. (Check the Ancient Egyptians!) If some form of abortion is not legal it will continue to be available, illegal, unregulated and unsupervised, conducted by the unscrupulous.
I am really rather religious but I find it easy to consider an unviable foetus not a human being, but then I began on farms where one gets quite realistic about life quite quickly..
I am interested to know how far the loonies will go. Should not only the doctor and the mother, but also all the accessories before and after the fact be convicted of murder and in death penalty states, be executed?
radiofreewill @ 11
I wonder if they got specific, secret orders? The threat of excommunication would be an effective persuader.
“” Cella said, “Instead, the court deferred to deliberative judgment of the people’s elected representatives protected by the Constitution.”"
Let’s dissect:
“court deferred to…” Wait a minute, they are an independent body.
“deliberative( involved in or characterized by deliberation and discussion and examination ) judgement of the people’s elected representatives…” So, with the majority of congress pro-choice, I guess he is referring to the minority of elected representatives…
“protected by the constitution.” Roe v Wade? Huh, I’m confused.
montag @ 15
Or his thigh for the cilice scars.
Our former DA here on LAwn Guyland used to be a super numerary in Opus Dei. They guy was crazy when it cam to abortion, would go potest in front of Planned Parenthood and refused to prosecute wingnuts who were arrested for assault for attacking women trying to get into PP.
He also attacked the other LI DA for daring to do a Grand Jury investigation and report into priest pedophiles.
It is terrifying the abuses of power that can occur when folks lose sight of the seperation between Church and State
Just remembered something else….. Is it now the case that women will have to revert to carrying a dead foetus to term?
UPDATED: RNC’s Smartech took over Ohio Election Servers on Nov 3, 2004″
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....142611/673
quick o/t
FYI - the Tillman/Lynch story is front paged at all major news sites including Pox
Christy - ‘Lou Bobbs’ is going to spotlight FDA story on his program tonight -
radiofreewill @
11
I think what was meant was the precedents set by the church hierarchy.
OT but silly crap from the GOP’ers. Smells like PANIC!
Republican puts out ‘action alert’ claiming Rice will be subpoenaed tomorrow GOP Rice Subpeona Alert
GOP may target Clinton Administration e-mails
GOPThreaten Clinton Administation E-mail probe
TiredFed at #4 has it: that “deal” with the filibuster screwed us royally. We got two wingnuts on the court, several on the appeals courts, and nothing, I repeat NOTHING, in return.
And now, if we get a Democrat in the White House, we’re still saddled with the filibuster.
We have to go at these creeps with the metaphorical machetes from here on. If Stephens has to resign, I don’t want a SINGLE Dem who isn’t willing to “run out the clock,” as Gonzales is doing so effectively. Bush gets NO more appointments.
Speaking of which, how about if we stop approving all his judicial appointments entirely? “No more judges for you, Junior.” And let’s haul every single recess-attorney up for a grilling. This is take-no-prisoners time. Grover was right: bi-partisanship is another term for date-rape.
when mario cuomo was gov of ny, he took pains to say that despite what the catholic church says about catholic politicians being obligated to follow its orders, he chose not to
the catholic church *does* require members to follow orders, or no communion for them
it says so right on their website
http://www.catholic.org/featur…..php?ID=886
and they made a big fuss over it re john kerry
So am I gonna need a Justice’s signed permission slip to have any other medical procedures performed? Since I’m just a poor, unfortunate woman who can’t think for herself, and needs the Big White Men of the Court to protect me from my inability to make what THEY and THEIR GOD (not my god) believe to be the right decision with regards to MY health and MY bodily autonomy?
lhp @ 23
It is terrifying the abuses of power that can occur when folks lose sight of the seperation between Church and State
There’s a paragraph in Dune about when religion and government are yoked to the same cart, how it goes faster and faster until it runs over the cliff it didn’t see. I wish the various flavors of fundy (all of them!) would recognize the danger on the path they’re trying to drag us down.
maunga @ 20
Everywhere I have lived I have always planted a rue plat in the garden. Even in States like NY, where pre- Roe v.Wade, it was illegal to posses oil of rue or tincture of rue; it has never been illegal to grow a rue plant.
I give rue seedlings as gifts to fellow Planned Parenthood members. If you know how to use it they can never force you bear an unwanted child.
Emphasis on know how to use it, research is important. Also, if you grow one, keep preganant women who want their babies away from your garden or anyone (including pets) who has recently been in it.
From Bloomberg via Raw Story on article coming out in the NewEngland Journal of Medicine:
Story Link
LHP @ 32
Just give them time….growing rue will be on their radar, and outlawed, precisely BECAUSE it can be dangerous to pregnant women.
looseheadprop @ 32
Wow — Is this serious? Learn something every day at fdl — where did the expression, “rue the day” come from? As in, “he will rue the day, somebody named him Oliver,” from the musical.
What gives me a giggle in all of this is that there has been lots of discussions within the hierarchy of the Catholic church suggesting that public officials who do not vote along the lines of cannon law (read pro-choice btw: I’ve never seen this discussion in relation to the death penelty) should be somehow considered bad Catholics. So the church thinks they should vote as Catholics but to point that out is to be anti-Catholic. You can’t make up stuff this good.
1,496 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen **** The traitors @ 7:
Ilove yer “handle” but it ain’t gunna fly here ‘cuz FDL keeps a bright line on “violence” on the blog…and I agree with that policy. Actually, I rely on the moderators ta keep me in the ballpark sometimes.
So even though hangin’ is in the statutes for treason…we gotta jest get the bastards ta trial and let the law do the rest. Hope ya ken find a handle that gets the point across…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE BASTARDS WON’T HESITATE TA HANG YOU IF THEY CATCH YA!!!
I was just shocked that a judicial opinion seemed to be right out of the wingnut talking points.
Talking gruesome surgery, after 34 yrs of nursing, Orthopedic procedures are really nasty. Saws, nails and pins…..hammering …..
Or a memory from 1971 in my third year of nursing school while I held the hand of a 14 yr old girl who was bleeding out from an illegal abortion while she is saying over and over again “I promise I will never do it again”. She never did because she died. I was 20, it was Missouri, just a few years before Roe V Wade was decided. Weirdly, abortion was legal in Kansas then…..
AND I never forget….. watching the life drain from a child because she found no other avenue but to risk her life… and lost
leinie @ 35
But in so many places, it grows wild. How will the eradicate it all.
Veritas78 @ 30
and dont call another recess, please! we cant take any more of these heckuva job appointments! they last until 2009!
looseheadprop @ 39
I believe it was called paraquad. Oh, wait. Wrong plant.
Exposing Republics who have had or been a partner in an abortion is a necessary, if unfortunate, step. It’s similar to exposing gay Republics. It’s the only way to get them to stop the political posturing.
I always thought Pope John Paul II was a pussy for accepting a blood transfusion after he was shot. Maybe it was God’s will that he die instead? Why didn’t they convene some sort of Vatican counsel to decide the question instead of letting the doctors rush in?
Anyone check the visitor log lately? Rummy’s ole boys are snooping around.
Jane, I thank you with all my heart for your impassioned voice on this issue.
And Tony Auth! ! ! He rocks!
AZ Matt @ 29
tis true. Henry Waxman plans to vote on subpoena for Rice re: Niger docs and a bunch of other stuff tomorrow.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 45
How can you tell?
Paraquat is an herbicide, not an herb. In the ’60’s it was sprayed on mj crops in South America by the US. Reports were that smoking mj which had been sprayed caused lung damage. Wiki says that is not so. I haven’t time to google for old stories, but I don’t believe much of what I read anywhere anymore.
JKc’s@45
what do you mean? How can I check visitor log?
Those of us who were baptized into the Catholic Church do not necessarily believe in all the dictums of the Church. To argue reasonably against the teachings of any religious faith is not bigotry. Anymore than saying if one disagrees with some of the Israeli government’s policies is anti-Semitic. To argue bigotry is the case in either situation is preposterous.
spurious @
21
Back in the days when folks were ex-communicated for divorce, my grandparents got one in 1922 or thereabouts. When told she was ex-communicated, my grandmother declared, “If you don’t want me, I’ll be damned if you’re getting my daughters.” Which ended catholicism in MY immediate family.
AZ Matt @ 29
Gee, don’t they need to get a majority vote to subpoena anything? What grounds would they propose for issuing a subpoena on the DNC? Just wondering…
Mandrake @
48
Do you see the sitemeter thing at the bottom of the page? ;-) Click on it .. then go to details ….. Abu’s been snooping too in the past few minutes as well.
itwasntme @ 43
No prohibition on blood transfusions in the Roman Catholic church. It is incumbent on Roman Catholics to prolong life by every practical means, as well, so most medical practices heartily encouraged.
itwasntme @
50
Check my reply at #54 … lots of interesting stuff you can find out there
HotFlash @ 47
Yes, the problem of the Rue Plant — growing wild, and being cultivated — will become a major social issue requiring funding for some spraying program to be enforced by a department whose funding — through forfeiture — will be dependent up the Rue Plant continuing to be a major social problem …….rinse, repeat. For four decades.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
looseheadprop
maybe it’s time for another surprise visit to Iraq, a/k/a fleeing the jurisdiction.
Personalized Mississippi license plate ordered.
IMPEACH.
Thanks for the interest. Will post pix on my site in about a week when I get the tag.
Enjoy.
looseheadprop @
40
Given all their success at eradicating wacky tabaccy…
Duh!
Why do you think Bush nominated right-wing Catholics like Alito and Roberts to the Supreme Court to begin with? Its a majority Catholic Court for a REASON.
We’re as anti-Catholic for pointing this out as Bush was for nominating them in the first place. Too bad its too late to do anything about it.
oddmommy @ 59
hmmm. maybe Henry should deny bail.
Scarecrow,
many moons ago when I was law student, it was my very great privledge to be the research assistant tothe dean of my law school. He had written one of the ameci briefs in Roe
It was coming up on one of Roe’s anniversaries and he had me do legal research into the changes in abortion law in all 50 states and the territories since Roe was decided. I also threw in a a couple of western countries and Cannon Law as well (I like to be thorough in my research)
That’s how I first discovered the lovey rue plant. It is a pretty sage green plant with unusally shaped leaves attractive yellow flowers. A very hardy perrenial that is easy to grow. It is used in cooking, particularly egg and cheese dishes.
And, of course, if used carefully, can produce a medical abortion.
Many of the “alleged” pro-lifers supported the invasion of Iraq (650,ooo dead and counting) do not support equity in education, health care for all, and a national living wage. Hypocrisy gone wild!
Most of the pro-lifers are pro-fetus not pro-life. They want to force women to have children and then after that those kids and mothers are on their own. YOu know “survival of the fittest” (richest)
A’57 @ 58
Of course, the Republic mantra seems to be” “Eh, women? Not so much.”
Montag at 12
The Church doesn’t give ‘passes’ on Dogma/Doctrine to *anyone*, even Supreme Court Justices.
So, if you think when they put on the robes that they are cloaked in some kind of immunity from Mortal Sin, think again.
They know it, too.
How would you envision a ’separation’ of personal belief that you are going to Hell for ‘enabling’ abortion from a legal precedent established by other Courts not composed of Catholics?
What would compel a practicing Catholic in good standing with the Church to *vote* against the Doctrine to which he/she subscribes? Especially, if that doctrine entails going to Hell for violating it?
The leadership of the Catholic church has become increasingly adamant in insisting that Catholic politicians, legislators and others in public life use their offices to support Catholic teachings. They have also become more willing, as we saw in 2004, to campaign, from the pulpit and in the media, against Catholic politicians who, though they may follow Catholic teaching in their private lives, do not support the Church’s positions in terms of public policy. The 5 Catholics on the Supreme Court are all conservative Catholics who would be expected to heed the Pope’s direction on how they are required to conduct themselves in terms of their public duties. Here is a news report (International Herald) from last year that outlines the Pope’s direction to Catholics on how they are to perform their public duties:
BOLOGNA: Pope Benedict XVI strongly reasserted Tuesday the church’s opposition to abortion, euthanasia and gay marriage, saying that Catholic politicians were “especially” obligated to defend the church’s stance in their public duties.
“These values are non-negotiable,” the pope wrote in a 130-page “apostolic exhortation” issued in Rome, forming a distillation of opinion from a worldwide meeting of bishops at the Vatican in 2005.
“Consequently, Catholic politicians and legislators, conscious of their grave responsibility before society, must feel particularly bound, on the basis of a properly formed conscience, to introduce laws inspired by values grounded in human nature.”
I never heard of rue either. I take it it is what they call an “abortifacient”? Do you just, like, eat it and…..?
I was never very good at it, so I guess I’m a former Catholic. Most of my generation seems to feel the same way. It’s the fundies (of any stripe) that you have to worry about.
Tim Fuller @ 60
I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting to get that tag if I were you. The states can block tags someone (anyone in power) deem offensive.
looseheadprop @ 33
Pennyroyal is good (but dangerous) too. If you have never read it, look for a paperback text entitled, “Jeanne Rose’s Herbal.”
OK went to site meter - is that Washington DC fed stuff, people logging on - I guess it is.
Well, if you washington DC guys are here reading, please get a conscence, read the above post at 58 and get with it! We need loyal Americans now, no matter what party. I carry a copy of the bill of rights in my wallet. Youall might try that.
Nothing here at the lake except good, clean sunshine. Keep reading.
Tim Fuller @
60
Nice touch. Too bad it won’t be personally crafted by Haley Barbour, behind bars.
” Ingraham wrote on her Web site. “Could she ever get away with denigrating the Muslim faith this way?”"
Ummm, if the SCOTUS voted 5-4 to stone women for adultery, and the 5 justices in the majority were all Muslim men, this would be a reasonable assumption. Why is it any different the other way around?
I seem to recall that in the 1840’s the Know-Nothing party (in the days of the ‘Chronicles of Maria Monk’, inter al.)seemed to know something about the sub-Atlantic tunnel between Rome and Washington with priests scurrying about with marching orders. JFK seemed to have put an end to that, though Mitt Romney really, really must also if he is to have a chance (heavens forfend!). Look at this Taylor March post to see why I doubt he could pull it off, http://www.taylormarsh.com/arc.....p?id=25391
I think that it is curious that the fabulous five are all Catholic, but I do not believe that fact to be the controlling one. It just makes me embarrassed to have been brought up Catholic.
There was a letter in the NYTimes today to the effect that the abortion issue is between two groups of people: one can’t say ‘fetus’; the other can’t say ‘mother’. Never heard it framed this way before.
Reviewing a couple of facts which most FDLers are already familiar with about Roman Catholocism:
1. It’s a monarchy. During the Civil War, the Vatican was officially neutral. The truth was they were pro-slavery, because so many wealth Roman Catholics owned slaves and were a terrific source of donations. To get authority, you have to be ordained. In order to even be considered for ordination, you can only be one gender, guess which?
2. In order to be considered for ordination you also have to promise/vow no sex. As everyone is aware, altar boy sex is rampant among Roman Catholic priests. Cardinals like Mahoney (LA) and Egan (NY), made their careers insulating the institutional Church from the legal and financial consequences of transfering known predators into parish after parish, because they have a self-inflicted priest shortage. There are tons of Roman Catholics qualified to be priests. The Vatican won’t consider them, however, if they are the wrong gender or won’t promise celibacy. The historical problems with celibacy were well known by Luther and other Xtian reformers. Celibacy was never mandatory until Hildebrand, aka Gregory VII in 1074.
3. Benny 16 and John Paul 2 before him just wax eloquent about the power of forgiveness when they talk about predators who they forgave and forgave and forgave, for having sex with underage boys. Sex among consenting adults of the same gender however, is a mortal sin.
When it comes to divorce and remarriage, that’s a mortal sin too. If you’re Rudy Giuliani, you can get an annullment. It’s a very expensive, debasing, theologically absurd process that says nothing happened. Hard to explain that to the kids. For less influential and less wealthy Roman Catholics, they cannot remarry after divorce. If they do, they are banned from receiving any of the Sacraments.
4. Roman Catholic Church also does not allow “artificial” birth control. Using a thermometer to assess ovulation is not artificial birth control, but a pill, condom, or diaphram is.
Scalia’s comments about “cafeteria catholics” could not be more wrong. It’s the Vatican that picks and chooses its latest stand.
5. Here’s link to really sickening chapter in Roman Catholic history the kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara
radiofreewill @ 68
I wasn’t referring to them–I was referring to the apparent lack of irony in your statement. If you had made a play on “settled precedent,” which is a legal term, not a theological one, I would have recognized what you were saying as ironic. “Settled dogma” would have been a bit easier for me to appreciate.
Cheers.
You could convict Rove, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Bush and a slew of others at the top in this administration of multiple crimes. And none of them would ever admit to us, let alone themselves, that they ever did anything wrong.
itwasntme @
73
I am not worried. I am sure Jane is aware of who visits the site. I just thought people might like to check it out for themselves. Besides, if I get hauled to Gitmo, I am sure there will be an FDL party down there. ;-)
HotFlash @ 55
Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in blood transfusions. At least that used to be their position on that.
Us old-timers can look back to John F. Kennedy’s 1960 Presidential campaign, where he was asked by reporters whether his Catholicism might interfere with his decision making process if he were elected. This exhibited a religious bigotry that even FOX “news” would not attempt today. Perhaps it would be a good thing to ask government officials both elected and appointed when taking their oath of office, “Are there previous oaths or affiliations which you think would supersede your obligation to protect and defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic?”
As we have already seen; previously with SCOTUS, with the AG, and even with the pResident himself - loyalty to corporate interests, the Republican party, and possibly Skull and Bones has rendered the oath moot.
OH and the other name for rue? Herb o’Grace.
Before they got those little silver thingies that look like babies rattles with holes in them to sprinkle Holy Water on the crowds, Catholic priests would use Herb o’Grace to dip in the Holy Water and shake to disperse droplets over the crowd.
It’s so ironic and I often wondered how they chose that particular plant. Even back in the meddle ages rue was known for its aborficant prpoerties.
Ah, settled dogma. Sounds like something nice do to in front of a fireplace during winter.
(Pls pardon OT… multiply EPU’d)
Hope to see you on our unofficial FirePup Fan map. Pls don’t forget to pick the right pin for yourself, and to add a fun “shoutout” and maybe a pic. At this writing, there’re 358 of us with pins! :)Feeling adventuresome? Interested in who else is in the FDL community, and where they are? Maybe get in touch with them via anonymous message?
(… and now we return you to your normally-scheduled thread, in progress …)
I don’t much have an opinion on abortion myself, but if it is morally wrong as the right wing says it is then birth control would be equally as wrong. By preventing an egg to fertilize you would be doing the same thing essentially as aborting a fetus. You wouldn’t be killing a baby but you are killing the potential thus going against what God may have had planned. Let the right wing nuts stew on that a while.
We can talk about the Pope’s influence on Bush. And we can discuss the influence Billy Graham has had on this president.
SadButTrue @ 82
With Kerry, the wing-nutters WANTED him to proclaim that his Catholicism would supersede obligation to all. Just like the wanted to hear Roberts and Alito tap dancing on abortion so they could reach this latest decision.
rude pundit has a delightful bit of his trademark snarkery on the Vatican’s letting unbaptized babies out of “limbo”:
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/
OK, I have many thoughts on this one.
1. there are Catholics and there are Catholic wingnuts. The wingnuts abhor the Jesuits who teach us to question what we have been taught in order to fully accept it or reject it. The wingnuts rely on, guess what, religious authority of the infallible Pope.
2. I find mammograms to be misogynistic too. Would these pro-lifers be willing to fund research to devise a less painful preventive procedure? You don’t see any guys lining up for the tortilla press.
3. I find the “culture of life” Talking Point hypocritical so much to inspire much ongoing retching. Yes, let’s save the embryos in order to turn them over to the military.
Bush fatigue indeed. Bush Sr. is probably crying because he got his sons’ names mixed up during the fateful closed door meeting about which one should be elected first. You know how easy to get your kids’ names mixed up. I do it all the time.
I once witnessed on TV reconstructive surgery where they essentially peeled the face off of the skull to rebuild around the eye sockets. I wonder if Catholic Justice Kennedy would feel that’s too gruesome to allow as well.
It’s sad, really. Catholic Justice Kennedy was the one who tried to get the Supreme Court to act appropriately in 2000 on Bush v. Gore and not override the Florida Supreme Court. But he’s so, so wrong on this that nothing else he does will redeem him.
i believe it was the amazing barney frank said of the anti choicers that, who typically also want to cut social welfare spending, that, for them, life begins at conception and ends at birth
Nice kind of tangential post by (President-to-be) Nancy P.. It is good to see her taking on a broader feminist agenda.
countryjoe @ 87
They have, and they’re not too wild about contraception, either. That’s one of the reasons they keep pushing abstinence programs.
It’s really simple. They don’ wan’ wimmens fuckin’ unless it’s with a husband, and only if’n it makes babies.
Do the hokey-pokey, turn upside-down, and that what fundamentalism is all about… uh, that and government of God’s preachers, by God’s preachers and for God’s preachers….
Abortion to save the mother is ok with the church my grandparents were given the option about my father by the Nuns as my father told me and even though the Nuns put presure it was still their choice. Thankfuly nothing went wrong and I’m here today but these Supremes are apparently more radical than the Catholic Church was preVatican 2. I have mocked Scalia as a preVatican 2 holdover in the past. I admit now I was wrong all the Catholic Supremes are more radical than the Church ever was! Ignoring the Doctors advice about saving the life of the mom is not Catholic its well Psychotic.
do-si-do @ 90
Re: mamograms
If something shows up on a mamogram, they send you for an ultrasound. Why can’t you just have the ultra sound in the first place?
realworld @ 93
Hey, if Cheney resigns for “medical reasons,” shouldn’t Nancy get promoted to VP? So that Bush will, like, HAVE to do what she says?
: )
countryjoe