
***BREAKING: Rep. Doolittle resigns his seat on the House Appropriations Committee after the FBI raided his home via search warrant. H/T to ThinkProgress and twolf1 for the link. The Muck is reporting that the House Minority Leader forced him off the committee, via Roll Call.***
Returning to the Alberto Gonzales testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee after the lunch recess. C-Span is broadcasting the testimony live, and you can watch it online via streaming video here. The Speaker's blog has a copy of the letter from DoJ employees regarding their concerns about widespread politicization at the DoJ. (H/T to AZ Matt for the link on this.)
And a gentle reminder to please keep comments on topic to the proceedings -- the more one-liners and off-topic comments that fill the thread, the faster I have to change up due to server load, and that disrupts the flow of the liveblogging. So please, think whether it is necessary before you comment -- impulse control is our server's best friend. Thanks much!
Finally, after watching an entire morning of "I don't recall" and "I should have told him the factors that were important" for considering how and who to fire USAs, I have to say this: I would not trust the judgment of Alberto Gonzales to manage the Quickie Mart on the Simpsons. Honestly, this was a half-assed, convoluted finger-pointing description of an employee review process, and the employment and labor lawyers in the audience could do a continuing legal education seminar with this as a case study of "what not to do." It's been all management consultant and team building doublespeak and the word of the day thus far is "consensus." What a mess. -- CHS
______________________
Committee is back in session as of 2:35 pm ET.
SEN. GRASSLEY QUESTIONS: Grassley says that documents produced by the DoJ are not consistent with the AG's public statements, and that he is an equal opportunity oversight person in terms of getting to the truth of actions. Grassley has been unhappy with how the Bush Administration has tried to thwart his oversight attempts in various matters, and mentions that they tried to prevent a convicted felon from testifying because of his Administration connections which, he is happy to say, they eventually were able to arrange. Concerned about the environment of this matter when all of this took place. Why is it that the environment that you work in produced this mess? AG says that he accepts responsibility for the mess. He was overbroad in his statements -- hadn't gone back and looked at the documents, at his calendar, etc. -- certainly my statements were too broad. Felt a need to come out quickly and defend the Department with regard to allegations of improper conduct. Grassley says so you are running a department where it is dificult for everyone to be on the same page? Ag says he wouldn't characterize it that way, that he should have been more careful with his public statements. Grassley says that e-mails indicate that you were very involved in all of this, despite the public statements and other prior information given to the committee. Why are your statements changing and evolving so much? And who came up with a plan to evaluate these USAttys? AG says that he has clarified his statements based on review of documents. Who did you discuss this with at the WH? The AG says that he can't recall having specific conversations about the review process -- Sampson was going to bring back a "consensus recommendation" from senior folks at the department and the WH. Thinks it was an appropriate manner in which a senior management person should have done, thinks this was appropriate. Grassley says that didn't answer his who came up with this question -- AG says that it was his plan.
2:45 pm ET
SEN. CARDIN QUESTIONS: Cardin is not happy. Goes through why it is wrong to use political factors for reviewing USAs as primary concerns -- Sampson confirmed that partisan issues may have influenced the process. You have said a number of times that you don't think anything improper was used in making these decisions? AG says "that's a good question." AG says that he is not aware of anything in the documentation or testimony that would support the allegation that anything improper happened here -- AG says he relied on subordinates to be on the up and up. There is a back and forth on this for a bit. AG says that he was relying on the consensus recommendation of the senior staff, especially the Deputy Attorney General. Now you know that there were a number of controversial political investigations going on in a number of these jurisdictions at the time that this review was ongoing. This was a unique process to remove these many attorneys for this type of reason -- don't you see how this could be seen as a message to the remaining prosecutors to not pursue these types of sensitive political corruption cases and the public perception of this? That this could be seen as trying to influence a case for improper reasons? Do you still stand by your decision that this process was the right decision? AG says yes, he does. He has no information to say that this may have been improper. Do you think the perception is okay? No, I don't -- but I still would have done this again, just in a different way. Cardin says that you had some very serious discussions with your senior staff on at least three of these attorneys -- do you understand that these conversations may have influenced the outcome of this process? Cardin says and the conversation with the President of the United States? AG says he can't really speak to that. AG says that he would be concerned that there was a bad perception and that's why he spoke to the USAs in March. Cardin says but it isn't just the internal perceptions of the USAs, it is also the perceptions of the public.
SEN. TOM COBURN QUESTIONS: Let me see if I wrote this down right, you said that you didn't want someone telling you who should work for you as USAttys. AG goes back and now says he was referring to District Judges trying to push for certain personnel, and not to circumvent the Senate. (CHS says: Very placating and nervous tone here. Guess someone caught that quote as well and came up with a backtracking strategy at lunch.) Now discussing Bud Cummings. It appears to be, the perception, that people were dismissed for reasons other than those to which you have testified. The damage to the DoJ, to the office of AG, and to you personally, has been tremendous. Several people's reputations have been harmed, including Cummings. You said you would do this all again, how would you handle it differently? AG says he would have been more respectful, maybe some face-to-face meetings and/or a phone call involving the DeputyAg or myself. If the DoJ was going to say something re: "performance related," as a legal matter they aren't entitled to those reasons, but we should have told them if we were going to talk about it publicly. Coburn says how should we judge your performance -- why shouldn't you be judged by the same standards that these USAs were dismissed? AG says I've made mistakes here, clearly. I think the DoJ has been managed in a good way, but this wasn't handled well. Obviously, I have a lot of work to do to restore trust. Coburn says that he believes that there should be consequences for poor choices. I think this has been handled incompetently. Coburn goes through a list of things that have gone wrong -- says that he doesn't think that there was politicization, but this is the politics -- the blood sport -- that we are playing -- but that the exact same standards of evaluation should be applied to you. This was handled incompetently, there was horrible communication, and the best way to put this behind us is your resignation. AG says he knows that mistakes were made and that he's committed to make this right, but you need to work with me. Coburn says that you set the standard and that competence was sorely lacking -- and that the DoJ needs a clean start.
SEN. WHITEHOUSE QUESTIONS: Discusses the structures in the judiciary, and says that they are there for good and important reasons. My concern is that you do not seem to be aware of the damage to these that this episode has caused. Your testimony is highly misleading -- for decades there has been a practice that allowed USAs to be independent once they were appointed, absent some substantial showing of misconduct. And to blithely say that the President can just fire them whenever he likes -- this was NOT customary practice. AG says that he does agree with that. Whitehouse says that the second piece of this that is important, there is actually very little prosecution that happens out of main justice -- it has been dispersed to USAs who have strong connections to the local communities in which they live and continue to live once the jobs are completed. The Senate and the President must sign off on their job, and it creates a corps of common sense and judgment and independence that is highly valuable to this nation. When that is thwarted, it is disrespectful to the Senate, to the Congress, to the public and to the USAttys. AG says that he does think that independence of the USAs is important and that it is valuable. However, have to qualify that a bit -- the President is elected with regard to the philosophy and perspective. Whitehouse says that he'll agree with that, but will also say that the balance must be that USAttys who are prosecuting tough cases -- Carol Lam for instance who was known as the top atty handling public corruption cases -- that sends a message to all the other USAs. And you cannot allow the policy question to run away with every other question on the table. (CHS notes: this is very, very good stuff.)
And I cannot find any place in this record where that careful consideration was given to the impact of these decisions. Let's talk about what an "improper reason" would be -- your definition is almost the same as Kyle Sampson's reason: to interfere with a "particular case or prosecution." You've loaded up those words and used them repeatedly. Whitehouse says clearly that would be improper, that would be grotesquely improper. But you have set the bar way low on this. Any effort to add any partisan or political dimension to his office, irrespective of any particular case, is something that needs to be reaceted to strongly by us. Whydid you do that? AG says the focus in my mind is "what is the legal standard." Whitehouse says if you "hang" a USA once in a while to discourage the conduct of all the others, isn't that improper? AG goes back to the technical issue on Presidential removal prerogative. Whitehouse says that the standard that Gonzales is using is very problematic and that everyone in America ought to have a problem with it.
SEN. KYL QUESTIONS: Kyl agrees with what Whitehouse says.
Am going to start a new thread.
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Go down Abu, Go down.
Madness!
Here we go.
I want to hear some questions about the qualifications of the senior DOJ staff. And I want to hear some questions about Goodling’s role.
Just for fun.
AAaaand he’s leaving…
Gee, my first HT! I humbled! *g*
Government by MBA
Why was Abu discussing these issues with Karl Rove, when all the way back in April of 2006 Rove was stripped of all policy duties and left only with political ones so that he “could focus on the upcoming 2006 elections?” Rove was never reassigned any of the policy duties. Rove’s only job duties were with the political arm.
Thinking back to a post by Glenn Greenwald a few weeks back, the GOP is the Daddy party. I wonder if Gonzales’ mewling performance is going to push even the staunch GOP partisans to abandon him.
Thanks for this wonderful service, FDL!
There is a pleasantly surprising and appropriately hostile tone to the beginning of this hearing, which I think is due to two factors –
(1) Gonzales showed up with the obvious intent of being combative towards (at least thus far) both Leahy and Specter, likely because he is confident that the President will not fire him no matter what the Senators think; and,
(2) all of the extremely evasive, nonresponsive, mantra-like testimonial tactics that Gonzales has been using for years with this Committee are not going to work today, as even the ultimate Committee Bush loyalist (this side of Orrin Hatch), Jeff Sessions, warned in advance.
from Glen Greenwald
My God, I’m at work! Is he close to resigning yet? Are people laughing at him? Shaking their heads? yelling?
Ted Stevens must have parked another one of his damn trucks on the toobz at C-span.
REAL slow.
i know someone’s already asked, but is there anywhere else I can watch other than cspan and the judiciary?
I don’t have real audio at my computer at work, and c-span’s video doesn’t work 90% of the time.
Like right now.
Even Byron York (hair boy) at the National Review’s the Corner thinks Abu did a bad job this morning.
Coming up live now.
CSPAN-3 Live!
Did everyone READ the note at the top of this thread in the post? HINT HINT
Schadenfreude nirvana…
Help keep FDL server activity down by joining us in chat at Gabbly:
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What was all that shouting just before the hearing started? Sounded like “Bye bye!”
Okay, give me a hard time on this…but, I thought this site was pro-people active. Like, gender inclusive, ie. gay friendly. So, why is it okay for people here to be calling Lindsay “Prissey”?
Name-calling is not nice.
Okay, they are back. I’m sure this will be buried. It’s okay. My question still stands for those of you who have a larger perview.
Back to the popcorn! And C-h-o-c-l-a-t-e!
God Bless Fire Dog Pups!
Grassley: Gen Gonzales?
EPU’d from Thread V-
Wonder if anyone will bring this up in afternoon session- the reason for the statistical drop in immigration prosecution under Carol Lam. From the San Diego Union-Tribune:
Lam’s Legacy
“Border crime prosecutions in the past had made San Diego the busiest U.S. Attorney’s Office in the nation. Lam tried to remake the office’s role along more traditional lines, where federal prosecutors go after big fish.
But that policy may have alienated key law enforcement constituencies. The union that represents Border Patrol agents was outspoken in its dissatisfaction. Lam tightened the guidelines for deciding which smuggling and immigration cases her office would undertake, meaning fewer cases went to court. Instead of going after coyotes, the guides who bring illegal crossers into the United States, her office targeted the leaders of smuggling organizations. It also prosecuted corrupt Border Patrol agents and border inspectors.
The result was predictable. Statistics show that prosecutions fell during Lam’s tenure.“(my bold)
Thanks so much Christy and Puppers.
So lam didn’t want to ’swat at flies?”
just a quick note - there was a great piece somewhere on the web the other day about how “consensus” is the goal of this AG’s office, pointing out how often Sampson used the term as if it were always a good thing. The post went on to explain why it isn’t necessarily a good thing - except for those in the group reaching consensus, because it protects any individual in the group from being held responsible.
I’ll look for the link — but hold off posting till the hearing’s over or in recess.
brendancalling @ 13
pacifica
Mr. Gonzales, what flavor of Kool-Aid did you have for lunch?
-GSD
brendancalling @ 13
http://www.pacifica.org/ uses Windows Media Player
shorter Grassley: we don’t have a straight story.
annx @
14
Do you think the NRO crowd could even excuse Abu Gonzales’ behavior at the hearing? Even to those clowns he has to sound incompetent. The buck stops with him for pete’s sake. It isn’t supposed to be Keystone Kops time at DoJ.
I’m thinking that another Monica will bring
down the Bushies…
Grant her immunity so she can spill her guts.
This bullshit by Gonzo is all lying cover-up
Grassley: What was the environment? Why there’s so many inconsistancies?
Abu: I regret the inconsistencies. I had not gone back to look at docs, so I was winging it
Abu is getting hoarse. He’s having to say more than Yes, George. No George.
Guess Gonzo took some Prozac at lunch.
Abu: There was a lot of info over two years. Did not get the info before I opened my mouth.
Grassley: Everyone not on same page?
Abu inadvertently told the truth: I wouldn’t say that.
The selection of US Attorneys is among the most visible and important staffing decisions of the AG. He has a department specifically designed for their care and feeding - the Exec. Office of the USA, which reports directly to him. The Hiring and Firing at issue here involves nearly ten percent of them.
Yet the AG claims that he didn’t coordinate this himself, with his ample support staff. He didn’t delegate it to the EO of the USA, which would know better than anyone the performance stats and feedback on individual USAs. He “delegated” it to a staffer outside the prosecutorial chain of command, who had never been a prosecutor, never managed a large or small organization, and has been out of law school only a few years?
Gonzales is weak, but he’s bright. He did it that way because it’s what the WH wanted, and he knew his decision didn’t count anyway. Hence, he opted to be the absentee manager.
It is still those decisions that justify Mr. Gonzales dismissal or resignation. Added to which, and like Lurita Doan and others, Mr. Gonzales has himself never managed a large organization.
He was an individual performer at his law firm, as an appointed justice on the Texas Supreme Court, and as counselor to the governor and then President. He managed a relatively small organization while serving about a year as Texas’ Sec’y of State. So, apart from having no experience wrestling with federal constitutional or criminal law, Mr. Gonzales has no management experience. Not with a large firm, a large corporation, an international organization or a large government agency. Mr. Gonzales has only his personal loyalty and subordination to Mr. Bush.
The wag who called this Mr. Gonzales “re-confirmation” hearings was exactly right. The facts, and Mr. Gonzales interim performance, permit only one decision - resignation.
He’s babbling to say absolutely nothing.
Grassley: whassup with inconsistencies?
Gonzo: I tried to get out in front to defend dept w/o checking my calendar. Shoulda got my story straight 1st.
Grassley: you said you weren’t part of these decisions. But emails and Sampson’s testimony contradict. YOur own testimony changes your story. Explain.
Grassley: Sampson said you lied. And your own testimony backtracks. Why? What was your participation? And who came up with the pan?
Abu: I have clarified my statements.
EPU’d from RBG:
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The Republicans are nuts. Didn’t our AG advise his master that it was cool to attack Iraq?
Speaking at Murrells Inlet VFW Hall in South Carolina, McCain was asked when he thought that the US Military might “send an air mail message to Tehran.”
“McCain began his answer by changing the words to a popular Beach Boys song,” the Georgetown Times reports.
“‘Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran,’ he sang to the tune of Barbara Ann,” the paper notes.
McCain then added, “Iran is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. That alone should concern us but now they are trying for nuclear capabilities. I totally support the President when he says we will not allow Iran to destroy Israel.”
earlofhuntingdon @ 38
Absolutely… he is a water carrier
Try this is you can’t get C-Span:
http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearing.cfm?id=2632
and click: Alternate LIVE WEBCAST Site - Click HERE
Geezzezzz even FEMA brownie (heck of a job) did better at testifing then gonzo
He is dodging everything about the WH
Notice the AbuG interplay between tossing Sampson under the bus while using his statements as support for his “good faith” in helping the Congress complete the record.
The absolute lack of intellectual curiosity in this administration is staggering.
Abu: There are some things tha I don’t know. Cuz I haven’t spoken to witnesses because of the investigation.
Grassley: Did you discuss at the WH?
Abu: I don’t recall that type of conversation
Blaming it on Sampson again
for firepup’s ipods..
here’s the link to the mp3s i recorded of this morning’s gonzales hearings. scroll down, they are at the bottom of the list.
please feel free to cross-post.
I think it was my plan?
Why is your story changing?
I hadn’t looked at the record.
Sampson said I have clarified my statements
Who did dicuss this with WH?
I don’t recall. Sampson was in charge.
Who came up plan of USA?
THat was my plan.
Is Pach at the hearing ?
It’s 2:40 and he told Grassley he should have gone back and looked at documents. He told Specter he ALWAYS prepares for testimony. He is a weak, lame, pitiful representative of what an AG should be. He is as convoluted as Bush when trying to answer questions. Whiny, Whiny, Whiny.
Difficult to listen to the “there were mistakes made and I take full responsibility.” Pitiful and gaggy.
Abu just perjured himself again.
Cardin is setting up for the political purposes noose.
Repeating myself, but will one of the Dems ask just which people constituted the Consensus?
Cardin (D): In reviewing all the facts and to try to understand what happened, you still stand by the decision. How did you know that political considerations were not used in the recommendations to you?
Abu: I trusted the people around me.
What safeguards were in the process? Sampson said he had none. Ouch.
“To the best of my knowledge, I recall that it was my recollection that I knew that it wasn’t in my mind at the time.”
Rinse. Repeat.
It was a fucking bagjob from day one
No safeguards to filter out undue political pressure. How do you know people weren’t removed for improper reasons?
Abu: I did what my COS told me to do.
Keep digging, honey.
On the endless use of the word “consensus” by Mr. G.
If you read the Metcalfe interview in the National Journal over the weekend, he talks specifically about consensus building at DOJ since 2005; that it has really turned that process on its head; and that the main result is that lots of people (like the Monica Goodlings of the world) became involved in stuff where they never would have pre-2005.
“He reports to the DAG.” — blame McNulty! not me!
Sampson did not feel he had safeguards in purge.
How do you there were no politics involved?
I relied on staff.
They are all fair questions….
The trouble is you can’t answer any
Cardin: of the 7 USA removed on same day, 5 had corruption cases probes of repubs - now that you know that - don’t you see that this would be interpreted as sending a message to USAs across the country to stay away from sensitive cases?
Cardin: Bringing up the Republicans under investigation in 5 of the districts. This might have been interpreted as a message to USA to stay away from sensitive political cases.
Abu keeps saying, “that’s a fair question.” But he doesn’t answer it.
Tejanarusa:
The story you’re thinking of is below, with the relevant quote. And CHS’s observation makes it clear just how accurate Daniel Metcalfe’s observation was:
Justice Department’s Independence ‘Shattered,’ Says Former DOJ Attorney
Tony Mauro
Legal Times
April 16, 2007
Since the day he arrived at the Department of Justice in February 2005, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales has “shattered” the department’s tradition of independence and politicized its operation more than any other attorney general in more than 30 years.
So says Daniel Metcalfe, a senior attorney at the department who retired in January
“But the process of agency functioning, however, became dramatically different almost immediately after Gonzales arrived. No longer was emphasis placed on accomplishing something with the highest-quality product in a timely fashion; rather, it became a matter of making sure that a “consensus” was achieved, regardless of how long that might take and with little or no concern that quality would suffer in such a “lowest common denominator” environment. And heaven help anyone, career or noncareer employee, if that “consensus” did not include whatever someone in the White House might think about something, be it large, small or medium-sized.”
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.....6455062969
Cardin: Don’t you see that this may have been interpreted as sending a message to USAs around the country?
Abu: On March 12th I told them not to stop or start a case based upon political.
Do you still think it was right to dismiss them?
Abu: yes.
Admitting mistakes doesn’t cut it
Cardin’s incredulous. You disagree with the perception out there?
G: no
Cardin: and yet you would still do the same thing?
Bay State Librul @ 71
admits to mistakes in the process, but NOT in the outcome.
What is the point of AG’s commenting on whether a question is fair?
Daniel Metcalfe:
I think he’s being proved correct today.
CArdin is damn near screaming at him. Gonzo is not understanding political perceptions.
The committee staffer behind Cardin needs to sit still and stop fiddling with his damn hair.
It does no good to speak to them about political interference after the fact, Abu.
Bay State Librul @ 65
As a lawyer, I can’t even count the number of times I used that phrase in adversarial settings, always thinking “Gawd! What a stupid question!”
It’s amazing to consider that days of practice lead to this testimony. What was Gonzo like before he memorized his lines for today?
A professor from Mt. Holyoke who was on Pacifica 20 minutes ago. Mentioned that Bush had improperly interferred with the Prosecutor in Guam who was let go of ( ‘allegedly” investigating some Abramoff connections in Guam). That this issue has not come up in this hearing and should be brought up.
Abu: An unfortunate episode.
The incompetence of Abu Gonzalez is staggering.
He would still do the same thing again.
He thought they had good process in place.
Coburn up now.
Cardin - public confidence has been undermined, and yet you would still do the same thing.
G: i would use a different process, but same result.
Coburn up.
Coburn. Another reacharound candidate.
W/ Coburn:
He can’t recall his tesimony this morning on having Judges decide who works for them!
Coburn: Asks a question looking for clarification of earlier testimony
Abu: I can’t recall what I said earlier today.
Abu won’t answer if Cummings had poor performance or not. Answer, Abu.
Helen @ 88
Amazing, n’est pas?
Abu: I don’t recall that statement, but if it was made, I apologize.
Cummins had poor performance?
I can’t remember what his performance was?
I don’t recall.
Desire to place with other person.
Gonzo is a lunatic
The question on my mind is: how will all this affect Rove? The AG is a la carte. Rove is the main course. And of course the prez and Dickie are the full course.
Lionel Hutz, Attorney General.
Ahgoo @ 74
It’s yet another stall.
THE Damage to DoJ, AG and other has been significant. Reputations have been damaged.
Coburn Damage to dept, AG, Abu, Cummings has been terrible. Management terrible. Communication terrible.
Abu, if Coburn has come after you, you aren’t toast. You’re going to be in that ring Karl has people kiss every day.
The senators have to be furious at this unbelievable waste of their time in a serious case.
gonzo goes to guantanamo to refresh his memory
Fire himself for poor performance
Christy Hardin Smith @ 17
What hint Christy??
Abu: - done different? Been more respectful. I would have called them to fire them. Would have told them why. Probably should have made them aware that they were on the block.
Coburn: communication has been terrible, management terrible. What would you have done differently?
G: more respectful. Face to face meetings, or at least a phone call.
Public comments about performance related? We should have given the USA’s reasons.
I wish someone would ask him if he discussed today’s testimony with the President before coming to the hearing.
Coburn sounds almost rational today, given that he is certified nut.
We should have told the USA the specific reasons. We should have talked with them about concerns. We will now institutionalize that into a review process.
The barn has burned down.
nrglaw@98
If they aren’t, they should be. Nothing pisses the public off more than wasting their tax dollars on liars. ‘06 elections said that loud and clear.
Can confirmation be rescinded? Jesus Christ!~ If ever ther should be a recall this is it. Whay a weasely, pisspoor performance.
Abu: Mistakes were made!!!
Why should we not apply the same standards to you, Abu?
Fair question, I accept responsibility. But I won’t answer anything, really.
Coburn - what you said about evals of USAs; why wouldn’t we use the same standards to evaluate your performance?
Abu’s testimony is so sordid, I hadda drop a note.
Cmte on the Judiciary
Did I miss it, or has no progress been made toward revealing who specifically was the source of the firing list?
Why shouldn’t evaluate you the same way? Great question!
LJ/Aquaria @ 86
Hey, that’s MY reacharound candidate!
Coming to you from across the Red River.
He has a lot to do… like Bush, “hard work”
Imagine he was considered for a Supreme Court
Justice?
We all mistakes??????????
Is this reality? There is going to be hell of a lot fallout from this hearing, way beyond Mr. G. and DOJ.
Gonzo is starting to dissappear in front of our very eyes.
-GSD
Coburn: Why should you not be judged by the same standard as the dismissed judges?
ZING!
Tom! What happened?
Asks for resignation!!!