Login HereThis week's NYT Science Times section featured an interesting interview with Dr. Philip Zimbardo, a Stanford psychology professor who specializes in the study of evil and the conditions which spawn it. He is most notorious for the 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment, in which he created a fake prison in the Psych department basement, using student volunteers as prisoners and guards. The study was supposed to run for two weeks, but his girlfriend was so horrified by the cruelty that the fake guards were inflicting on the fake prisoners, that she pressured him to pull the plug after only six days. Some highlights from the story and interview:
His Stanford Prison Experiment... showed how anonymity, conformity and boredom can be used to induce sadistic behavior in otherwise wholesome students. More recently, Dr. Zimbardo, 74, has been studying how policy decisions and individual choices led to abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq....
(...)
[Zimbardo describing the Experiment:] By the end of the first day, nothing much was happening. But on the second day, there was a prisoner rebellion. The guards came to me: “What do we do?”
“It’s your prison,” I said, warning them against physical violence. The guards then quickly moved to psychological punishment, though there was physical abuse, too.
In the ensuing days, the guards became ever more sadistic, denying the prisoners food, water and sleep, shooting them with fire-extinguisher spray, throwing their blankets into dirt, stripping them naked and dragging rebels across the yard.
How bad did it get? The guards ordered the prisoners to simulate sodomy. Why? Because the guards were bored. Boredom is a powerful motive for evil. I have no idea how much worse things might have gotten.
(...)
Q. What’s the difference between your study and the ones performed at Yale in 1961? There, social psychologist Stanley Milgram ordered his subjects to give what they thought were painful and possibly lethal shocks to complete strangers. Most complied.
A. In a lot of ways, the studies are bookends in our understanding of evil. Milgram quantified the small steps that people take when they do evil. He showed that an authority can command people to do things they believe they’d never do....
(...)
Q. What was your reaction when you first saw those photographs from Abu Ghraib?
A. I was shocked. But not surprised. I immediately flashed on similar pictures from the S.P.E. What particularly bothered me was that the Pentagon blamed the whole thing on a “few bad apples.” I knew from our experiment, if you put good apples into a bad situation, you’ll get bad apples.
That was why I was willing to be an expert witness for Sgt. Chip Frederick, who was ultimately sentenced to eight years for his role at Abu Ghraib. Frederick was the Army reservist who was put in charge of the night shift at Tier 1A, where detainees were abused. Frederick said, up front, “What I did was wrong, and I don’t understand why I did it.”
It's funny how the Republicans have so much trouble with "bad apples." Like the ones who fed the President bad intel on Iraq, or the ones who leaked Valerie Plame's identity, or the ones who took Jack Abramoff's dirty money, or the ones who conspired to turn the Justice Department into an arm of the RNC. Of course, unlike (maybe) some of the Abu Ghraib guards, who were thrown into a rotten bucket, most of the Republican apples were pretty rotten to begin with.
Even so, Zimbardo's (and Milgram's) general premise struck a chord with me as an explanation for how the Republican Party so completely lost its grip on right and wrong. I don't think boredom is much of a factor (although I guess peace is pretty boring), but conformity and obedience to authority certainly are. Even more importantly, Zimbardo brushed up against the root cause when he spoke of the importance of anonymity. But it's not anonymity that enables evil, it's impunity.
Up until very recently, the Republicans were secure in the knowledge that they would never be held accountable. They controlled the media, they controlled pivotal elections, they controlled Congressional oversight, they controlled the DoJ, and they controlled the courts. Short of murder and bestiality on national TV, they were confident that no-one would examine their actions. The knowledge that they could get away with murder is what transformed them from a bunch of jerks with bad ideas into the lawless band of in-your-face authoritarian sociopaths that John Dean describes so well.
I'm certainly not going to argue that the Republicans were all well-meaning humanitarians before Bush took power, but there used to be some decent ones. And of the not-so-decent ones, all their plots and schemes to dominate the government and the world were just that: schemes. But then 9/11 gave Bush license to do whatever he pleased in the name of fighting terror, and that opened the door to making schemes into reality. The pressure of conformity and authority induced once-decent Republicans and not-so-decent Democrats to go along, and everything went predictably to hell. (I admit that I'm going out on a limb with the decent-Republicans claim, but I do know several Republicans who are very nice, so it should theoretically be possible.)
Fortunately, with some prodding from us, the American people have finally decided to pull the plug, and the Republicans' Magical Armor Of Impunity is crumbling. They just haven't noticed yet.
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Eli!
And, sadly for them, bad execution. If only their brilliant policies could have been executed half-competently, why then Iraq would be a democracy, OBL would be dead, and all children would get puppies on their birthdays…
Maybe - just maybe - the ideas were bad?
Decent GOP’rs? Earl Warren comes to mind. And some others.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 2
Yeah, I know there are some, I just can’t name any. Or else they’ve morphed into assholes. I suspect John Warner used to be a decent guy; John McCain didn’t seem like such a bad guy until he sold out - although that may have been more a function of friendly reporting…
Boredom is a powerful motive for evil.
Which is why every community should have ample wholesome recreational opportunities for young people.
I don’t think boredom is much of a factor (although I guess peace is pretty boring), but conformity and obedience to authority certainly are
Egregious public corruption tells me that they are personally vile, and have become bored with hurting only those in their immediate circle, and must widen the evil to get a thrill, like drug addicts who have to constantly escalate their “fix”.
Mutant Poodle @ 1
Well, the thing about evil ideas is, they’re not concerned about positive outcomes. They’re usually based entirely on very narrow self-interest. So those narrow interests benefit, and everyone else pays for it.
sunny @ 4
And Republicans, apparently.
Hello??
But it’s not anonymity that enables evil, it’s impunity.
Not to Godwinize myself or anything, but that was also pretty much also the case with the *cough* not-Z’s.
localroger @ 8
That thought did cross my mind. They were pretty seriously evil, but made no attempt at anonymity.
Eli @ 10: They were pretty seriously evil, but made no attempt at anonymity.
I have probably read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich ten times. It’s one of those books I go back to when the world makes no sense. And it’s scary, but very clarifying to see how those same patterns have established themselves again, just in slightly different ways like the self-similar levels of a fractal.
There WERE some good Republicans. Not anymore. Once upon a time, in some long ago time, Republicans actually believed in no deficit spending, no foreign adventures, not being the world’s policeman, minding our own business, separation of church and state, the Constitution and privacy.
The Abu Ghraib should not have surprised anyone. We have prisons in this country where abuse occurs and there certainly have been sadistic guards who are Americans. We just don’t want to hear about it.
the knowledge that they could get away with murder is what transformed them from a bunch of jerks with bad ideas into the lawless band of in-your-face authoritarian sociopaths that John Dean describes so well.
One can not be transformed into an authoritarian but ones mask can slip.
localroger @ 10
This probably establishes me as a completely shrill leftist, but when some network aired a miniseries about the rise of Hitler, and I saw all these intelligent people saying, “There’s no way people are going to vote for this unqualified obvious thug; there’s no way anyone is going to give him extraordinary powers, etc. etc.”, and it creeped the hell out of me.
That same sense of the inexorable and inexplicable.
I see our current crop of republicans as children, people who NEED to be told what to do, NEED to be told right from wrong, and who have a faith based belief that those they have put in authority (parents) would never lead them astray. I don’t understand how the “old” republicans (Goldwater types) could have morphed from the fiercely independent to today’s fiercly loyal (dependent, childlike) republicans. I’m guessing it has something to do with the christian fundamentalist attitudes toward God-the-Father, and their inclusion for vote gathering purposes in the Republican party. Christianity as contagion?
Sort of OT..But Blackwater wants to build an 850 acre private military base near San Diego. Rep. Duncan Hunter probably helped get the project started.
Massive security contractor faces growing protest in rural California town over 842-acre base
Miriam Raftery and Muriel Kane
Published: Tuesday April 3, 2007
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/....._0403.html
OT — from previous thread
If anyone wants a quick rundown on Giuliana, i.e. “His Greatest Hits”
http://mediamatters.org/items/200605080006
It’s not just that there used to be “some decent ones” — believe it or not republicans used to think for themselves. My dad was a republican. He’d say “I vote for the man not the party”. The men [there were scarcely any women in politics back then] voted for the following men: Dewey, Dewey, Eisenhower, Eisenhower, Nixon, Goldwater, Nixon, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Reagan, and Bush. But…my dad favored legalizing abortion, long before Roe V Wade. My dad turned against the Vietnam War early on. He favored measures to force energy conservation, such as raising fuel taxes and mileage standards. This from a man who worked for GM for 30 years and opposed any other kind of tax! Men and women like my dad are long gone. I used to have lots of heated political disagreements with him, but I could never dismiss his positions out of hand because he thought everything through. He made different assumptions about the world than I did and came to different conclusions, but at least he came to them in large part himself. Where are such republicans these days? or that matter, is it clear that a majority of DC dems are of this ilk?
The Republican Party, because of it’s natural affinity for the rights of large corporations, has morphed into a Criminal Enterprise, from top to bottom. Any nominally decent person who joins the party quickly becomes corrupted by a pervasive culture which is suffused with efforts to subvert democracy in order to benefit the controllers. Those who resist the dominant ideology within the party structure are dispatched (fired or “whatever”) with ease and without conscience, as we have recently seen.
Sorry, but I don’t see the link between boredom and evil actions.
Tibetan Buddhist monks meditate for the greater part of the day — as boring as it gets — and they’re gentle, kind and peaceful.
Slothrop @ 20
I think that’s the weakest link in the theory. Conformity, authority, and impunity, that’s the toxic stew that makes Republicans tick.
I read about a conservative pornography “expert” who made a real fuss about all of the artcles he had published about how e-e-e-evilll porno was.
Well, it turns out the great bulk of those articles were published in explicitly Christian magazines. Now, let’s thnk about this. A co-religionist, someone who believes as you do, offers you a “scholarly” article on a subject of interest. He’s done lots of them, so it’s probably all properly spelled and formatted.
Seriosly, how likely is it that they’ll check his work for logic and rationality and to see to it that it’s internally consistent, etc?
Nah, I didn’t buy it either!
Fortunately, neither did the courts. They refused to allow him to testify as his opinion was no better than that of yer average “man on the street.”
Eli @ 15: when some network aired a miniseries about the rise of Hitler, and I saw all these intelligent people saying, “There’s no way people are going to vote for this unqualified obvious thug; there’s no way anyone is going to give him extraordinary powers, etc. etc.”, and it creeped the hell out of me.
It’s truly terrifying. They were people not so different from us. I think the only reason things are different today is the Internet. In the 1920’s long-distance communication was so difficult that it was easily controlled by the government. In fact, we may be living in a small window before “improved” technology renders such control possible again. As it is, the would-be Not-Z’s of our era have obviously and consciously tried to attain the control Hitler had over the German media, and they have come close to succeeding in the case of the MSM.
localroger @ 23
I often wonder just how bad the media would be without the nagging of the blogosphere.
livetoad @ 19
I can almost “ditto” that, livetoad. But my pop is still a republican and he has changed. He didn’t go all in, (Schiavo) but he’s become a torturer sympathizer among other things. They love Bush, I guess.
(edit) and the goddamn lying is no prob, either.
Eli @ 6
The part that I find interesting/puzzling, Eli, is that the “Evil” ones have been so able to lead their minions, like Sampson and Goodling into not only doing their evil for them, but into covering up for them. Even to the point of lying for them-and KNOWING that they are lying, against every tenent they have been taught. People who have been raised with “What would Jeasus Do?” have been convinced to disregard what jesus would do in order to meet their leaders expectations/needs. The willingness to sacrifice for authority that runs counter to everything they have been taught simply astounds me.
The GOP has become sordid, tawdry, self-focused, greedy, corrupt and fascistic. I don’t know what else to say. I cannot find a single redeeming example in the Republican Party. And yet, the GOP politicians and rank and file Republicans love George Bush.
conniptionfit @ 26
I am convinced that the Christian Right either only pays lip service to the New Testament; or else believes that its message of compassion only applies to their own kind.
Then again, “Thou Shalt Not Lie” is in the Old Testament…
Slothrop @ 21
Yes, Tibetan monks are meditating, or looking inwards. The unexamined life is not worth living and all that. We are talking about people who are, almost without exception, incapable of self-reflection. These ones must do something to stimulate themselves, not having any solid foundation for a peaceful and fulfilling existence.
sunny @ 29
Have you ever seen a movie called Naked? David Thewlis’s borderline sociopathic character comes across as someone restlessly channel-surfing through life (but with people instead of channels).
Eli @ 25: I often wonder just how bad the media would be without the nagging of the blogosphere.
The Germans got plenty of nagging from around the world for their “faux news.” Shirer goes into it pretty thoroughly in TRAFOT3R since he was a radio journalist. It’s really startlingly similar how even in that they they just didn’t care. Those who refused to read the approved lies were removed from the airwaves and newsrooms and there was never a shortage of willing sycophants to replace them. Shirer himself reports the war from a remove after 1942 or so since it became impossible for him to do his job from inside Germany.
conniptionfit @ 16
When I say “childlike” I mean in the sense of a toddler with a loaded shotgun.
localroger @ 31
But their media was outright owned by the state, right? Ours is merely in bed with it.
Since we are talking about torture. From the LA Times:
LINK
Bippity Boppity Abu…
The relationship between boredom and evil actions occurs when children are bored and are given activities that are violence-oriented that excite fear and the adrenal system as a reward.
Do authoritarian following types have difficulty admitting that characteristic?
I may stand alone here on this. But I like Rosie O’Donnell, and what this woman has to say.
LS @ 35
I don’t doubt it one bit as an evil enabler in general; I just doubt it as a factor for the Republicans.
LS
i left you a lengthy comment about the ants and rove at last thread at 107
Oklahoma kiddo @ 28
Do they love, or are they so dependent on having a leader that they are unable to find fault?
Eureka Springs @ 36
I’m pretty sure they see their willingness to blindly follow authority as an act of bold independence… from everyone who tells them not to.
Eli @ 31: But their media was outright owned by the state, right? Ours is merely in bed with it.
No, just like ours theoretically independent. Before the Nazis took over the newspapers and radio stations were corporations independent from the State, but as everyone agreed was a good idea subject to appropriate State censorship for the usual reasons such as national security, etc. Such control would, everybody agreed, only be exercised in times of dire need *cough*.
“I admit that I’m going out on a limb with the decent-Republicans claim, but I do know several Republicans who are very nice, so it should theoretically be possible.”
there are decent people that claim to be republicans. But these are strictly the disengaged person who has no idea what it means to be today’s republican - they, at some point early in their life decided they were repuiblican and never learned enough about what that means to change. Anyone and everyone that knows what it means to be a republican really is an awful person to be kept away from power and otherwise avoided.
.
.
localroger @ 42
Well, you can’t have the media blabbing away about your wiretaps or secret prisons…
Zimbardo was in a documentary on the Stanford Prison Experiment which was posted on youtube in 5 parts
Right here [scroll down for the videos]
john in sacramento @ 45
I was trying to find a larger chunk of that to lead off the post, but didn’t have any luck.
I went to Stanford, and got to see that documentary. The blonde woman in blue was actually in my dorm…
LS
lengthy ants and rove comment at last thread is at 119 NOT 107
localroger @ 24
I read Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (William Shirer) a few times myself. I can also recommend The Rising Sun, by John Toland.
What boggles the mind is comparing the situation the Germans faced after World War I to our relatively comfortable one after 9/11…how we were so easily stampeded out of our liberties and into a disastrous war.
There are Dominionist-type pseudo-Christians who believe that lying (they would put it in quotes, “lying”) is A-OK if they do it “in the name of the Lord.”
Of course, this is flat-out heresy, not that they care. They are cult members, and they have taken control of every Federal agency, placed there by Dear Leader to harrass and hound out of service as many real public servants as possible.
Here’s a good and very scary dKos diary about precisely this matter, the frightening prospect of what will happen when push comes to shove with these cult members:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/2/121745/4467
They have lots in common with the PNAC fans of Leo Strauss, who also believe it’s perfectly reasonable for the elites to lie to the “commoners,” the serfs such as we.
These folks joined forces. Why, I’m sure they lie TO EACH OTHER about their motivations, for example the PNAC crowd is perfectly happy to tell the fundie Dominionists that they too are “Christian” if it’ll get them the support they want in the form of zealots to act as legionnaires for Dear Leader.
They are extraordinarily dangerous. They are in every way just as scary (and just as devoted to “democracy”) as Stalinists.
What do we do about them? Other than push them into the “klieg lights,” that is…
Way off topic:
There is a good story on The NewHour tonight about the missing bees and the “bee colony collapse disorder.” Without the bees, no pollination, no crops, no food. (www.pbs.org, available as audio podcast here at pbs and at iTunes)
Zimbardo’s (and Milgram’s) work showed that you could pull the ordinary person off the street and produce evil. Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Bolton were evil even when they were on the streets. Their evil was not produced, it was enabled.
Mrs. K8 @ 49
Sounds like Plato’s Republic run amok…
Eli @ 45: Well, you can’t have the media blabbing away about your wiretaps or secret prisons…
The Nazis didn’t bother to keep their prisons secret, but definitely the details of what went on inside. And the real reasons for why high level policy decisions were made were also not exactly public knowledge.
Meanwhile, what the hell IS going on with us w/r/t Iran? And is that a braggadocio-poisoned leader overextending himself I see there in WashDC?
What would be our equivalent of getting stuck in the Russian winter? Please not nukes. Please not nukes. But I am not optimistic about the long run on that.
Eli @ 31
Yes! A masterwork of a film. Thewlis’ monologue has to be the best ever put on celluloid.
spinoza @ 51
There were a whole bunch of directions I wanted to go with this post, and just didn’t have space for. One of them was, What happens when you put someone who is evil to begin with into this kind of evil-enabling situation? Perhaps it’s inevitable that they would be drawn to it.
Eli, when you say that there were some decent republicans, I think of Lincoln Chaffee. He is a good person, it seems to me. He did need to be beat so we could have the majority, but sad. It will take the republicans a long time to recover from this madness.
I’d certainly take Lincoln over some of ours.
localroger @ 53
I firmly believe that nuking someone is on Dubya’s list of Cool Presidential Things To Do Before Leaving Office.
sunny @ 54
Oh, good - I was beginning to think I was the only one who had seen it. I thought Thewlis was going to be a star, but it just never happened.
ls–it was 107 in last thread after all, can’t read my own notes
sorry all- i’m being distracted by my cats and my dog, in and out and storm coming……….
Terry Olson @ 56
If he had switched parties, he probably would have won in a walk.
Eli @ 29: I am convinced that the Christian Right either only pays lip service to the New Testament; or else believes that its message of compassion only applies to their own kind.
Prior to the Iraq war, a cousin of mine sent out emails to all her friends reassuring them that it was acceptable for Christians to go to war. She came to this conclusion by carefully reading her bible and pulling all the parts that she believed justified killing. People see what they want to see.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 49: What boggles the mind is comparing the situation the Germans faced after World War I to our relatively comfortable one after 9/11…how we were so easily stampeded out of our liberties and into a disastrous war.
Yes, I think the SPE and Milgram experiments go a long way to showing why that’s the case though. After all, the US went through a horrible Depression too. It’s not poverty or hardship, but raw fear and emotion, expertly whipped up by an agitator who knows our weakness. Orwell got it right with the idea of “hate week.” It’s not the product of rational actors that creates such a state, it’s more like the pack response of a bunch of animals. Our instincts are obviously very broken in certain regards.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 38
So do I. It cracks me up when they gang up on her on the cable shows etc. She knows they use her antics to bash her and I think she is playing them by having them pick up on the story and spreading it far and wide. Kudos to Rosie and the dog that didn’t bark! lolo
Come the Revolution, Brother… Look, no kidding, are they, could they seriously be setting us up for a military coup? Am I crazed here, to have this sneaking concern that we may really be looking at the 2nd American Revolution in the next 20 years?
Eli @ 58: I firmly believe that nuking someone is on Dubya’s list of Cool Presidential Things To Do Before Leaving Office.
Sadly, I’m sure you are right.
dmac @ 59
What I really, really like, is when my Siamese walks across my keyboard. Of course she knows full well I won’t get angry. Since she’s the boss and will deprive me of her company, and then I will become katatonic. ;0)
this is one great post
it’s got incredible insight and this post should be highlighted and sent to every reporter…all media figures both ballanced and imbalanced (in all senses of the word imballanced)
eli, great idea connecting these dots…most people fail
this is exactly what we get when we put people who are not professionls with the proper training in situations like this
excellant post
Eli- thanks for another great post.
I am reminded of a study I was told about a long while back. I tried to google it, but just couldn’t remember enough key words to limit the search.
The study was done with college students, who were set up to be parts of groups. But, all except for the actual study subject (one person) were “ringers”. The “group” was presented with obviously false information, and had to determine if it was true or false.
The “ringers” were instructed to gradually support the false view, with the intent of applying group pressure to the one “naive” holdout. The “naive” individual (not in on the plan) continued to argue that the data was true (as it was), as the “ringers” one by one asserted that the data false.
When there was still one “ringer” who was also agreeing with the “naive” subject that the data was false, the naive/test person continued to hold out on his correct conclusion that the data was true.
But, THEN this last “ringer” finally agreed with the group that the data was false. Not so long after, the test subject agreed that that the data was indeed false.
This story was related to me at a time when I was up against tremendous group pressure for not being a “team player”, even though my values were correct.
The person who told me about the study said “you need one ally, one person who agrees with what you say. Do you have that?”
The story and the truth of it have stuck with me. And, your post brought it back. Thanks.
p.s. I just edited- got one false/ true wrong before.
Eli—
Profound post.
I thank you.
Yeah, ok, I can’t decide if it’s time for another beer, or if it’s time for the wagon to come pick me up… any opinions?
VG, I remember that study. Scary.
I recently came across Ron Paul, Repub:
“Congress failed to meet its responsibilities four years ago, unconstitutionally transferring its explicit war power to the executive branch. Even though the administration started the subsequent pre-emptive war in Iraq, Congress bears the greatest responsibility for its lack of courage in fulfilling its duties. Since then Congress has obediently provided the funds and troops required to pursue this illegitimate war.
We won’t solve the problems in Iraq until we confront our failed policy of foreign interventionism.”
Also, see this speech in the House, about Iran as next target of neocons, from a year ago.
http://www.house.gov/paul/cong.....040506.htm
Eli,
Although I do not disagree with the sentiment of what you’ve written here, I think it represents at best a facile juxtaposition, and at worst a gross misinterpretation and misapplication of Zimbardo’s results. “Of course, unlike (maybe) some of the Abu Ghraib guards, who were thrown into a rotten bucket, most of the Republican apples were pretty rotten to begin with.”? These out-of-hand judgements are precisely what Zimbardo’s research can be interpreted as opposing. See the “Fundamental Attribution Error”. No?
-Bogey
Eli @ 58: I firmly believe that nuking someone is on Dubya’s list of Cool Presidential Things To Do Before Leaving Office.
Poppy went on record some years ago saying he believes we can survive a nuclear attack.
I have a very hard time thinking China, Russia, Pakistan and India will sit idly by while Mr. Bush lobs a nuke at someone. Of course I realize these sorts of consequences don’t enter the ‘mind’ of a megalomaniac.
I wonder how the study got past the Institutional Review Board at Stanford.
Eli @ 47
Kewl! So you knew some of those people.
I’ve been meaning to do a blog on a subject tangential to this, based on the study Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition; but it’s not easy to synthesize in two or three hours because of the first study and the rebuttal by the troglodyte Republicans, and lastly the response by Jost, Glaser, Sulloway, et al - are all in academicese (dry, pasty wording) (if Shrub can make up words so can I).
Maybe this weekend
mulligatawny @ 71
Be exceedingly careful of assuming that one concurring opinion doth a kindred spirit make. You should check out some of the OTHER opinions this guy holds. Scary.
localroger @ 61
It could not have happened if our so called fourth estate was not so completely in the tank for the republican party. And they can’t redeem themselves until they admit it.
And that is also the problem with ‘decent republicans’. If your party is committing mass murder, torture, and destroying the very fabric of our Republic itself, making Arlen Spector noises and choosing the course which best improves your personal prospects does not make you decent.
Eli @ 71
Eli- I would very much like to find a link to the original study, but just couldn’t figure out how to find it. Maybe you know more details to help me google it?
Amy Goodman covered this story with an hour long interview with Dr. Zimbardo, with ample film clips on Friday’s Democracy Now! program:
http://www.democracynow.org/ar.....30/1335257
melfeasance @ 73
Well, Yeah, we can survive one, but would it be fun?
dmac @
59
Got it dmac. Thank you. We’re waiting for a “severe” storm too.
Slothrop @ 21
sorry but meditating all day is an excersize in fully aware self dicipline.if you are bored you are not meditating.you are just sitting there.
Bogey @ 71
I admit to having a hard time imagining Republicans starting out virtuous - Rove and Dubya have been creeps their entire adult lives, but others don’t have the same track record.
I really don’t have a problem with the premise that Republicans started out decent and became corrupted by their situation - especially the ones who started out as Democrats. The thing is, there is some self-selection at work, so that as the Republican party becomes progressively (heh) more and more evil, it will increasingly attract more and more adherents who are evil to begin with.
But I do not dispute that there are Republicans who joined the party when it was still sane and responsible, who got caught up in the hysteria that I think really took off in the Newt Gingrich era.
masaccio @ 76
The Milgram study is one of the major reasons there are Institutional Review Boards. I’m not sure about Zimbardo’s; it may just have caused major changes in the way they work.
VG@80
I think this was a study about a group deciding that 2 2=5, so maybe a psych test with math reference will get you a more refined search.
Dr. Freeman knows whereof he speaks:
http://www.electionintegrity.o.....Defeat.htm
Thank you for this, Eli. Very, very scary.
conniptionfit @ 70
Paddy wagon, chain gang truck, or soylent green vehicle?
Eli @ 71
p.s. Eli- this was told to me by a great friend who was greatly involved in revealing the plight of jailed scientists in SA during the Peron regime, and acting on their behalf. Often, he was the “one person” who stood by them, albeit by circuitous means.
melfeasance @ 74
In addition to Paraguay they have developed an enormous compound in N.Z.