
So the Democrats say they will subpoena Karl Rove and Harriet Miers, and Bush says he'll defy them. Mark Kleiman asks the question:
What leverage do the Judiciary Committees have over the Administration with respect to the Overblown Personnel Matter? Why shouldn't Fred Fielding just stonewall to his heart's content?
Answer: a Congressional subpoena isn't a request, it's an order. (Sub poena: "under pain.") If the order is ignored, the Committee that issued the subpoena asks the parent body to vote a Contempt-of-Congress citation. Contempt of Congress is like contept of court: defiance means jail. In principle, the Justice Department could refuse to prosecute but at that point even the Republicans in Congress would probably have reached the limits of their tolerance. In addition, either House of Congress has (though it seldom uses) the power to order its Sergeant-at-Arms to simply arrest anyone who defies a subpoena; that power, like civil contempt of court, is coercive rather than punitive. That is, confinement lasts only as long as defiance lasts.
The person subpoenaed can challenge the propriety of the subpoena on various grounds: for example, that the investigation doesn't actualy serve a legislative purpose, or that the material is covered by the attorney-client privilege. If the Congress has exercised its arrest powers, the person arrested can challenge the arrest by means of the writ of habeas corpus. (So far, Congress has no facilities at Guantanamo.)
Kagro X says that congress relies on the executive branch for its enforcement powers -- in this case, the US Attorney from Washington, DC, who reports to Gonzales. In other words, no easy answers.
He also points to what might be on the stonewalling Bushian mind by quoting this piece from Time Magazine:
[W]hen it comes to deploying its Executive power, which is dear to Bush's understanding of the presidency, the President's team has been planning for what one strategist describes as "a cataclysmic fight to the death" over the balance between Congress and the White House if confronted with congressional subpoenas it deems inappropriate. The strategist says the Bush team is "going to assert that power, and they're going to fight it all the way to the Supreme Court on every issue, every time, no compromise, no discussion, no negotiation."
They've been planning for this kind of showdown? There certainly is a lot at stake. Kagro again:
Realize that the resolution of this stand-off will determine the extent to which the Congress is able to investigate everything that's still on their plate. If they lose this showdown, they lose their leverage in investigating NSA spying, the DeLay/Abramoff-financed Texas redistricting, Cheney's Energy Task Force, the political manipulation of science, the Plame outing... everything.
And that's why Bush is playing it this way. Remember, too, that his "administration" is populated by Watergate and Iran-Contra recidivists, chief among them Dick Cheney, who has wanted to relitigate the boundaries of executive power since forever. Cheney and others on the inside believe that this time, with a friendlier judiciary, these issues can be decided the "right" way, overturning the victories won against Richard Nixon's insane theories of executive power.
Their thinking is that they'll either win it in courts, or run out the clock trying.
And the day they get five Justices to say they're right, everything you thought you knew about checks and balances becomes wrong.
Chuck Schumer is talking tough now. With so much on the line, will he be able to back it up when things get ugly? Because it looks like that's where we're headed.
(graphic by Freaked-Out Canadian)
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Jane!
Subpoenas — lots o’ them.
Hey! Whatever happened to the quick press reports that Cheney was having leg problems today?
oh yeah–Fitz! Jane! MT! Christy! LHP! Pach! Trex!
Oh, my stars and garters! The image of Rove being hauled off to the slams by the Sergeant At Arms is just too delicious!
Drag Karl and Harriet to Congress sporting tar and feathers, riding the rail. Bush the lesser with his personal troll Darth Cheney are next!
I’m scared. Really for the first time. If Congress doesn’t win this one, we can kiss off our democracy. It really is stand up and be counted time. In my fantasies as a younger person, I always asked myself what I would do when the time came. The time has come.
What happens now? First, you stay focused on healing thyself. Second, you revel in the glory of building a premier open source democracy site. Third, like good patriots throughout history, we don’t give up, we3 don’t listen to polling, We Speak Truth to Power.
Then we enjoy punaise.
Oh, as a side note, the guys at Sadly, No have been under DDoS attack again today. They’ve obviously REALLY pissed off the LGF crowd.
Knut Wicksell @ 5
Well, the only silver lining would be that it makes the Republicans even *more* unpalatable and unelectable than they are now, as they explicitly become the Above-The-Law Party.
Are we in for a velvet revolution to restore the Constitution?
Marion in Savannah @ 7
Sadly DoS. Sigh.
IMPEACH!
Pachacutec @ 9
Taffeta, apparently…
Thanks Jane!
But this is what is supposed to happen under these circumstances.
Counter the “Democratic Witch Hunt” meme… lets NOT forget that the US Attorneys are Republicans…
They canned 8 plus of THEIR best and brightest who usually go on to run for office, become judges and/or serve in Repug administrations.
Ya know - I am a NY’er and Chuck is my Senator and mostly I thought he was a blowhard, but maybe not? *slinks away*
I hope the will is there with the American public to stand up for their rights.
I don’t have faith in Schumer, but I have faith in Leahy and Feingold.
enjoin punaise?
two suggestions…..
1) promise Bush that no questions will be asked about conversations between Bush and his advisors during their public, sworn testimony (i.e. take the “president needs straightforward advice” argument off the table)
2) get Shumer to shut up about this, and let Leahy and Conyers handle it. (Shumer is proving a distraction…)
Millineryman @ 17
I’ve got my pitchfork at hand
smapdi @ 19
can’t say I’m enjoyin’ the prospect of a constitutional crisis…
“And the day they get five Justices to say they’re right, everything you thought you knew about checks and balances becomes wrong.”
And that is why I will vote for the Democratic nominee in 2008, even if he or she is not my favorite.
The Republicans have proven they can not be trusted with any governmental responsibility.
Period.
It actually is a very scary time.
However –
if Gonzo were to refuse prosecution of contempt of Congress charges, wouldn’t that be the time to begin IMPEACHMENT OF GONZALES hearings?
Or can’t we just go ahead and begin IMPEACHMENT OF GONZALES hearings right away?
We don’t just have the USAttorney scam to go after, we also have the NSA investigation shut-down.
And probably lots more that’s slipping my mind at the moment.
The DLC doesn’t want this fight for the same old reasons. They like their sinecure, and they’re afraid to lose.
As for me, I’d just as soon fight it now, and get it over before the elections. Democrats can use it to draw distinctions between us and Republicans. If the average citizen sees what is up, they’ll vote right in ‘08.
At bottom, that is the difference between R’s & D’s.
R’s think of citizens as units of production and consumption.
D’s (except the DINO’s) think citizens R Us.
punaise @ 22
and the alternative?
So if the Supreme Court establishes a precedent that presidential aides are exempt from all forms of subpoena and testimony…
How will the Republicans Whitewater the next Democratic president?
Eli @ 8
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 23
Or SCOTUS nominations.
This prez wants to paint this attorney firing business as a Democratic partisian thing. Won’t wash Bush. This is starting to remind of Watergate. Rove is Haldeman and Erlichman rolled into one.
The problem with the WH strategery is that there are so many people that Congress can supboena who are not in the White House who can submit very damaging testimony. Bush will be seen as simply obstructing justice. This is a political fight the Democrats should relish.
diogenes @ 25
That’s the difference between them and us. They like the sin, we like the cure.
p.lukasiak @
20
He just can’t keep his face away from the cameras, can’t he?
All I can envision is Schumer setting himself up as spokesman, inserting himself in the middle of the whole thing, and then backing straight down.
I hope I’m wrong.
punaise @ 22
Thought that’s what we’d been having since 2000 when the Supreme Court appointed the President.
can’t say I’m enjoyin’ the prospect of a constitutional crisis…
Elliott @ 26
none. bring it on. cartago delenda est.
CarthageBushco must be detroyed, and the fields salted.There truly is hope out there, though. My boss, a born-and-bred Savannah Republican surgeon, now is searching for one thing, just ONE thing he can agree with Republicans about. He actually submitted an Op-Ed piece to the NYT supporting national health insurance. With a well-thought-out plan of how to get there. If they’ve lost him, they’ve lost a LOT of the people they need.
At some point, you have to take a stand - after all, we have all that dry powder stored up.
This is messy, but this is the way our system was designed.
In my opinion, they should just start impeachment hearings and get it over with. That’s where we are headed anyway.
Paraphrasing a comment I made on the previous thread, perhaps rather than relying on a court enforcing a contempt citation, the Democrats should issue the subpoenas and when they are defied, begin a vigorous campaign to accuse the White House of obstruction of justice, and ask, “what are they hiding?”
I posted this earlier but it seems more relevant here. Kennedy’s DC judiciary staffer was working and answering the phone at 6:30 PM, the first time I’ve ever gotten anyone after 5.
I spoke w/ a Kennedy (DC) staffer after the president’s presser. They know where this is going. They will subpoena anyway. I asked if they were ready to pursue the consequences when the subpoenas were ignored. He told me they were ready to go the distance.
Got EPU’d previously, but my point holds for this thread too:– we need to position this whole thing properly… this is NOT about Dems picking a fight with the president over the right of the WH to hire and fire political appointees.. it’s about the WH attempting to intimidate government officials who supposedly serve the rule of law, into throwing or otherwise influencing the outcome of criminal investigations, and when they refuse to play ball, destroying their careers and reputations. It’s the same pattern of behavior we saw with Ambassador Wilson and Ms Plame, and, morally, its no different than Nixon breaking into the campaign office of one of his political opponents…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 30
punaise @ 35
YES! YES! YES!
wanna borrow my scythe?
Heh - Andrew Sullivan on KO “The only one who can save the Republican party is Hilary”
Surely Tweety should be all a-twitter about the thought of the Democrats penetrating the White House with their big, throbbing subpoenas?
Jane Hamsher @ 33
Is it time for another wave of faxes and letters? I’m ready to go!
Wow.
There is a lot at stake, and I truly hope the Democrats (and the patriotic Republicans) in the House and the Senate have retrieved their integrity and spines from the escrow they had been placed in for far too long.
KagroX is right: this is the end game for the Watergate and Iran-Contra recidivists. It will take more than subpoenas to win this fight. They are cornered, and their last recourse — judicial protection and the construction of a compliant prosecution — wasn’t fully completed before the sheer number of illegal activities caught up with them.
Even if it means an impeachment on the last day of their terms, Bush and Cheney must — must — be prosecuted. This Administration’s criminal hijacking of the government for the benefit of a few must be prosecuted.
As TRex says, “Attack! Attack! AATTAAACCCKKKK!”
Hey, here’s a question –
If Georgie is allowing Rove to testify (behind closed doors, without a swearing-in) then how can he possibly argue LEGALLY that Rove shouldn’t have to answer a subpoena?
punaise @ 22
There are those of us who believe that even in times of “constitutional crisis” you will out with one of your “mad i sonnes.”
Jane Hamsher @ 33
Me too, Jane.. see me at 16, but it seems like he’s all we have now.
The president has no leg to stand on. Nixon didn’t either. He tries to shut down government he is going to lose. Congress has the authority. They can just play it out. Eventually to the point where the Sergeant-at-arms frog marches Karl right out of the White House.
We’ve had enough. The president backs down in the next 48 hours or finds out that the main order of business in Congress is removing him from power.
They may think they have planned this out, but they really haven’t.
They were afraid of the numbers of people in front of the White House the last time. You think Arlen Spectre’s people are going to put up with him enabling this kind of horseshit.
Bushie better fix his attitude and fix it quick.
Professor Foland @ 39
That’s VERY good news.
Do you think that’s as good as hearing the same stance from Leahy’s office?
scory @ 45
Is there any reason they can’t be prosecuted in an actual (i.e., non-partisan) court of law in 2009?
patience @ 49
So, no one thinks this is a big bait and switch?
Eli @
27
How would the Supreme Court overturn a precedent established in a 1927 case mentioned on two prior threads (McGrain v. Daugherty 273 U.S. 135)?
Haven’t heard who the 2 Senators were that voted against the Patriot Act clean up today, anybody know?
p. lukasiak @ 20: I agree on quieting Schumer. I’m hardly up to the task of opining on how Dems in Congress should play the high-stakes game they’re embarking on against a savvy and well-armed opponent. But I sure do understand what I see on my TV, and how it might affect opinions.
Let Schumer play behind the scenes, but he shouldn’t be the public face of the party on this one. Neither should Rahm Emanuel, who came across for all the world like a snake oil-selling politician on Charlie Rose last night.
Pelosi and Reid need to get their PR act together fast, figure out who’s going to represent Dems on this issue and make sure everybody else knows to lay low when the producers come a-calling. We need to have the media and the public with us.
Eli @ 51
only if we can extradite from Paraguay and Dubai
Eli @ 10
The wingnuttien can’t handle the truth…their Flock of Seagulls reunion in D.C. was thirty thousand if you remember to divide by 30 or so.
Interesting read here…According to the AP, President Bush made a statement a few minutes ago in which he apparently threatened a constitutional showdown if Congress turned down his offer to have top aides testify about the U.S. Attorney firings only in private and not under oath. I gather this means that if Congress subpoenaed White House officials, the White House would assert executive privilege and force a lawsuit over whether the subpoena could be enforced.
I wonder, though, wouldn’t Congress be simply delighted to have this become a constitutional showdown? It would keep the issue in the headlines for weeks, and litigation would be likely to narrow the scope of executive privilege rather than expand it. Given that, this seems like a weird warning to make (assuming that the AP is reporting the warning accurately).
http://volokh.com/posts/1174428726.shtml
patience @ 49
The plan was always simply to maintain control of Congress so this situation would never arise. They planned for this eventuality about as well as they planned for the flowers-and-candyless Iraq scenario.
One of the few things Dubya’s been successful at is manipulating the SC to fit his agenda. Congress can supboena the crap out of everyone involved, but if the SC pays their debt to Dubya, we’re screwed. I distinctly remember telling myself on 9/11 that I hoped the prez stepped up to the plate when we needed him. That didn’t work out too well. Will the SC step up to the plate now that we need them? I’m scared too.
here’s a post by SteveH from the same link above:
Can someone explain how the executive privilege argument could be used to prevent the United States Congress from issuing a subpoena to Harriet Miers, a private United States citizen?
I get how the privilege could be claimed to relieve her from having to answer questions regarding her conversations with the President, but I don’t see how that privilege could be used to prevent her from testifying at all.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 53
McGrain v. Daugherty is merely a historical document.
Diane @ 54
I’m betting Specter and Lieberman.
TOE TO TOE, BABY! The Dems can’t back down, and neither can Bush. But we can make them look so guilty on the way to the supreme court that everyone outside the “crawl over broken glass rethuglicans” (30%) will run, not walk to vote for Dems
Great post, Jane. I’ll be on pins’n'needles.
Slight correction: subpoena means “under penalty” or “under prospect of consequences,” rather than “under pain.” It isn’t about a physical threat; it’s more about reaction backed by authority. So, if you ignore a subpoena, you don’t suffer pain—you suffer consequences.
Bush and his crew will suffer political consequences for ignoring a Congressional subpoena, but it remains to be seen if the Democrats are willing to impose any congressional, legal consequences, and if the Supreme Court is ready to acknowledge the power of Congress to subpoena the White House. If not, the word should be replaced by something like “request.”
Zee @ 60
I don’t think Kennedy is completely in the tank, so there is some hope.
Carol Lam for Special Prosecutor!
(I understand she’s out of work anyway…)
Pachacutec @ 9
Where are American college students??? Too busy drowning in their debts to bother? There should be our own equivalent of the Ukrainian “Enough!” movement.
Eli @ 63
Nope: Hagel; (R) NE) and Bond (R) MO
thanks Jane!
hope all enjoyed their walk through the snow
my initial impression once the adrenaline levels stabilized was one of anxiety and dread - Kagro X and Scarecrow have expressed valid concerns
but in my third reading of this -
it dawned on me- You and what army ?!?!? by that I mean these are some blazingly incompetent dullards - how many Fred Fieldings are there ??? These folks have lost some major decisions with their own packed SCOTUS, and I’m willing to bet there’s pretty much nothing left at DOJ except for the Kyle Sampsons and Griffins, and any of them worth their salt are pissed off career folks
it’s not bluster, I understand they’re gonna bring it - but with so much precedent on our side and so many ‘good bushies’ on their side, I feel a lot less anxious
Blue Dido @ 65
Of course, “consequences for your actions” is something Georgie thinks of as extreme pain, to be avoided at all costs.
Diane @ 54
NAYs —2
Bond (R-MO)
Hagel (R-NE)
Not Voting - 4
Biden (D-DE)
Johnson (D-SD)
McCain (R-AZ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Eli @ 63
Sadly, No! Chuck Hagel and Kit Bond.
I hope that settles any lingering Hagelography around these parts.
Leahy should grab the mike out of Chuck’s hand…
he has the gravitas and the experience and he roars beautifully.
not totally off topic, I was just reading a frightening expose by Jeremy Scahill of his book “Blackwater: The Rise of the World’s Most Powerful Mercenary Army” over at Democracy Now! and found this um, “nugget”.
(I highly recommend the interview, btw– talk about scary.)
(bold mine)
http://www.democracynow.org/ar.....20/1337226
Helen @ 69
Ah, everyone’s favorite antiwar Republican “maverick”…
The guy who voted to eliminate the minimum wage completely.
When is the Wilson civil suit?
Mrs. K8 @ 24
I don’t think Gonzo can be impeached (yet). I’m not sure there is enough proven evidence available today that would rise to the level of a Republican being impeached (note: the level of proven evidence needed for a popular Democrat to be impeached in a very pro-GOP congress is much lower than what would be needed to successfully impeach Gonzo).
That’s why we need these investigations.
George may be blowing smoke, getting publically huffy and then either canning Gonzo or letting them testify with immunity). Or, he really might fight tooth-n-nail. I don’t think he’ll go all the way in fighting this. The bigger he makes this, the more likely people sense that he’s lying. I think it’s a game of chicken, and he’ll run it this week, but then give up. There’s too much at stake, and I don’t think the public is gonna side with him, particularly with the precedents set in the Clinton admin (staff testified) and the fact that many in the media are calling today Bush’s “Nixon moment”.
If the WH is sure they can win this battle, why did Bush look so ferkin’ worried this afternoon?
not totally offthread, but completely within the scope of constitutional crises:
We can’t let our support for Valerie Plame’s work on WMD blind us from understanding the convoluted web in which the CIA works. Here’s a bit from German media (in english) about the dark side of Ms. Plame’s company.
We can not countenance this shit.
Helen –
Hagel!?!?
Good grief. I knew he was a super-duper arch-right-winger, but jeez louise.
He can’t possibly be looking for FORGIVENESS from the White House, can he?
It has always been about the justices. A Dem friend of mine voted for Bush in 2000, and I told him why I always vote the straight Democratic ticket, no matter what, was because of the justices. And events have borne me out.
And don’t forget about the Circuit Courts they’ve been quietly packing, too.
angie @ 74
Yeah, he comes across as a guy frustrated and angry with the bullshit, and Schumer comes across as, well, a politician.
When Nixon tried to defy subpoenas by claiming executive privilege, the Supreme Court rejected his argument, 8-0 (with Rehnquist recusing). Sadly, on today’s Supreme Court, my guess is there are at least two votes in Bush’s favor, Thomas and Scalia, and I seriously doubt either Roberts or Alito would have been nominated absent being sounded out on the issue. I think we can count on Souter, Breyer, Ginsburg and Stevens to reject Bush’s argument. Which means we could be relying on Kennedy to do the right thing.
Eli @ 51
IANAL, but I think not. Criminal charges could be brought against them, although given the stated intention of quaranteening the Bush Presidential records, criminal prosecutors might face very special challenges with presenting cases to a grand jury and to discovery.
Elliott @ 56
They can’t be extradited from Paraguay for “political” crimes.
The president is obviously very, very afraid.
What is the president so afraid of? The truth?
What is the president so afraid of? Karl Rove under oath?
What is the president afraid of?
Repeat.
My overriding hope is that somehow this brouhaha will make it harder for this administration to start another war.
Alicia @ 81
*Every* time anyone tells me that the Republicans should have to clean up their own mess, or that they’re all the same so they’re just going to vote Green or stay home, I ask them how old Justice Stevens is.
Well, the other Senator from New York should chime in on this. I doubt she will, but I would expect her to weigh in strongly if she had any gumption.
The tennis game you describe between Congress and the President is important, but it is no replacement for impeachment. I think the wrangling between the parties going to the Supreme Court is the reason why. If the Dems think they have a chance of losing to a packed court, then they should go straight to impeachment and set no precedents.
The view here is that a Constitutional confrontation could be a required purgative. Like in unplugging the plumbing.
Zee @ 60
I’m kind of worried about this too.. a lot of us felt that the real reason for Alito’s nomination had to do more with his preference for presidential dictatorship and less for his conviction in pushing the social conservative agenda. What happens if they do something silly like stalling the process for months while enjoining Congress to use its subpeona power against the WH altogether? I’m not a lawyer, but I am suspicious.
“cataclysmic fight to the death”
Oh, sure. The White House is real tough. Meantime, their policy means certain defeat for dozens of Republican candidates nationwide.
“Go ahead and scream” — Dick Cheney to GOP.
Yeah Mrs K8 I had the same reaction to Hagel. My reaction to Bond: WHO?????
Crazy Horse @ 85
What if it’s just a performance issue?
neurophius @ 38
In what mainstream media outlet?
Tokyokie @ 83
We should be able to rely on all our representatives to do the right thing. Sadly, I doubt that many could pick the right thing out of a lineup.
Helen @ 93
“They know who I am! My plan is *working*!”
This “game” if you will, was played out over 30 years ago with Nixon. By the way, it’s a long game. One must have patience.
Once the subpoenas are issued and ignored the match begins.
The end result should closely resemble Nixon’s fate.
The clock is ticking, is there enough time?
I suspect Bush is being told that his stonewalling will delay the final verdict until after his term expires.
Chess anyone?
Blub @ 68
Judging by the ones here in Savannah who attend Armstrong Atlantic University, Savannah State and Savannah College of Art and Design the good ones are trying to study and work one or two jobs to keep from bankrupting themselves with student loans and the rest are too busy partying to notice what’s going on under their noses.
Slothrop @ 92
It’s their due.
Mwahahahahaha.
Blue Dido @ 65
‘penalty’ and ‘pain’ have the same root - the Latin ‘poena’. ‘Under pain of’ anything means that consequences will ensue, not necessarily physical pain.
Schumer is obviously enjoying every minute of the discomfort of the WH, he is smiling and smirking and yes! loving it all…just watch the faces of everyone, turn off the sound and check the body language.
Delicious
LandOfTheFree –
Doesn’t an impeachment (indictment) by the House begin with impeachment HEARINGS?
Isn’t that analogous to a grand jury gathering evidence?
Why can’t such hearings against Gonzo begin?
[I’m not trying to be challenging, I just want to understand — seems to me there ought to be plenty of suggestions of malfeasance on Gonzo’s part to justify HEARINGS into charges, no? And how would they get out of subpoenas then?]
He says one thing, he intends the opposite. He hopes the Democrats don’t want a fight - he means he wants a fight.
Eli @ 97
Arlen Spectre…err Specter…What is his deal? I don’t think I can trust him any more than Box Turtle Cornyn, or the rest of the rethuglicans.
Olbermann is discussing my ‘favorite Senator’ from NY. Is there no escape for this (me) liberal (some would say radical) Democrat? ;0)
Crazy Horse @ 85
They can’t be extradited from Paraguay for “political” crimes.
how about racketeering?