
This just in:
The Libby jury delivered two notes containing questions when they were excused today. Both notes will be available on the public docket later today. Court will convene at 9 a.m. on Monday March 5 to address the notes. Thank you.
Nothing is showing up as yet on PACER, at least not that I am seeing. That's two notes. From the Libby jury.
And we'll be back with live coverage on Monday. You know what I know at the moment.
UPDATE: The text of the two notes is as follows. The first note:
As count I statement 3 (pages 63 & 64) do not contain quotes, are we supposed to evaluate the entire Libby transcripts (testimony) or would the court direct us to specific pages/lines.Thank you.
And note 2:
We would like clarification of the term "reasonable doubt." Specifically, is it necessary for the government to present evidence that it is not humanly possible for someone not to recall an event in order to find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
Jeralyn has the notes up at TalkLeft, so you can see them in their handwritten glory, and says she'll have some thoughts on them shortly.
Here's my quick take: You almost always get to a point where the jury has a question about reasonable doubt. This is because most jurors get to a point in their deliberations where their mind goes "holy crap! I may be putting another human being in jail. What if I'm wrong to do so? What if I let this guy go and he commits some other crime -- how will I live with myself? Arrrgg, the pressure...I just want to do the right thing." Or, at least, I presume that is what jurors are thinking, because that's what I was thinking sometimes as a prosecutor. Even when you have a defendant that you are positive is guilty as sin -- not just in this particular case but in a bunch of other cases, you still have that twinge of "is putting this person in a hole in prison appropriate." It's called having a conscience, and that makes lowering the hammer difficult.
So you almost always reach a point, right before the jury makes it's decisions, where they have questions about reasonable doubt.
Here's the thing about it, though: this isn't the sort of thing where, like when you were a kid, you can sit around and say to yourself "well, if Superman were to fly over the building, save Lois Lane and fight off Lavaman with one hand, would it be possible for him to strangle Lex Luthor with the other if Lois were holding onto his neck?" Reasonable doubt is just what it says -- REASONABLE. Not beyond all doubt. Not beyond any doubt you could possibly conjure up in your brain that would never happen in a billion years. It has to be reasonable.
Judge Walton probably has some standard way that he deals with this particular question -- because, as I said, most criminal juries get to it eventually -- and we'll learn what that is on Monday.
The question regarding whether a certain thing was within quotes or outside of quotes? I'm going to hazard a guess that one of the Ph.D.'s on the jury has headed into the weeds. (Not to say that lawyers aren't perfectly capable of weediness, too, mind you, but that seems like such an academia construct, doesn't it? Maybe it's just me, on a Friday afternoon with a tired mind...) And that, come Monday, their heads will have cleared and they will all realize that they are thinking to much about minutiae. And I'm wondering if Judge Walton's response might be to sequester them come Monday, to speed that along a bit.
Those are my thoughts. What do you guys think?
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Hello?
I will not say “FITZ!” because I feel that should be reserved for regulars, but . . .
Oh, my. This makes me a little nervous about the jury.
Ratz!!!
A zed? Or Fitz?
Definitely ReddHedd.
And I still say Kim Basinger as Valerie Plame.
note 1: We need more cookies!
note 2: …milk too.
Those rat bastards. They teese us with two notes and then make us wait to see them.
Pondering these two notes will certainly seem like Monday morning will never come. *g*
It is my secret hope that the Jury has already made up their minds, and they are deliberately waiting til Monday to present the verdict in order to prevent the MSM from burying Libby’s conviction in the Friday file dump…
That’s it! I’m off for a long hot bath- with bubbles. And no, you can’t come!
Talk about a cliffhanger! It’s gonna be a looooong weekend.
They are about the definition of “reasonable doubt” and something undefined as yet about count 1. See Court TV’s 3:07 update.
Just when I thought it was safe to go out!
I’m back at chez egr. All is well.
Albatross @ 8
Yeah, they’re telling the judge they’re close to wrapping up and will be done on Monday.
And they want chocolate chip cookies.
That’s what I think.
First note: the jury has reached a verdict.
Second note: please call Mr. Russert, Mr. Cooper and Ms. Miller so they won’t miss the story.
Christy,
Let’s not be sticking those pencils in the ceiling please.
Charlese Theron as Valerie. But who for Joe? Clooney is the only one that comes to mind.
The jury notes: http://blog.courttv.com/inside/files/notes.pdf
EPU’d from annx
Note 1: What’s the definition of “treason”?
Note 2: Can we say “really, really” before guilty?
I really don’t think the jury gives a rats ass about any “news dumps”, but what do I know.
This is so weird. I had to go out of town Tuesday, just got back last night, had to rely on newspapers and the occasional CNN hit in airports. I thought for sure I’d miss the big announcement and have to rely on MSM instead of my friends here at FDL. I just hope the jury HAS been sucked into the case and IS working it through bit by bit like Jane suggests.
NOTE #2: We would like clarification of the term “reasonable doubt”. Specifically, is it necessary for the government to present evidence that it is not humanly possible for someone not to recall an event in order to find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
They need more PostIt Notes and masking tape, and instructions on how to dress to tell someone he’s GuiltyGuiltyGuiltyGuilty?
(Actually, I think they want some words defined, but that isn’t funny.)
They are asking about “reasonable doubt” now - after 7 days of deliberating??
It’s the only question they have left.
ptrig @ 16
Quick, is there a lawyer in the house!
Note 1 looks encouraging. Note 2 much less so.
What does this mean? *tearing hair out*
NOTE #1: As count 1 statement 3 (pages 63 & 64) do not contain quotes, are we supposed to evaluate the Libbry transcripts (testimony) or would the court direct us to specific pages/lines.
ptrig @
18
:blink:
Wasn’t reasonable doubt explained to them?
Actually, I’d rather do anything than contemplate the notes at this point. I’m afraid I’m starting to panic. The jury is not even allowed to reflect on whether Valerie was covert, and the only charges being considered are whether Libby lied, so why would they be wondering around in the deep weeds? I don’t get what’s taking so long, and I don’t think it’s a good sign. I’ve always heard that the longer the jury takes, the better it is for the accused. But we can’t even say that’s so in this case. WTF! I guess the right philosophy is, “It is what it is. Can’t change it or do anything about it, but wait.”
note 2:
“We would like clarification of the term ‘reasonable doubt’. Specifically, is it necessary for the government to present evidence that it is not humanly possible for someone not to recall an event in order to find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt?”
Re: notes
Oh, shit.
Fitz! Egads! Two Notes!
obsessed @ 21
Um, no. IANAL, but it sounds like there’s a holdout on the jury.
Hickory Dickory Docket
The jury: “It’s in the pocket.”
The clock struck one,
The jury’s soon done
Hickory Dickory Docket.
Great sign for Team Fitz in jury note #2. It appears as if they are looking to get out from under someone’s mistaken belief that “beyond a reasonable doubt” has the same reading as “beyond all doubt”. (Common juror error in my experience.)
Also, Marcy or Christy– Due to slightly careless redaction it appears from the jury note as if the foreperson of the jury signs their first name with a capital “B”. Any clue as to who he/she might now be?
EPU’d from music thread:
Dictionary? Definition of reasonable doubt? These jurors are supposed to be well-educated!
bdu @ 29
Ok, so I bet I’m the only one that this makes no damn sense to, right?
bdu @ 30
(Rhetorical question here)
Are you kidding me!?!?!?
Jane gets the weekend to coordinate verdict outfits for the week,. Woohoo.
Also, I just wanted to say I got away from the computer today and I went outside. I saw birds, people not screen names, and real traffic, not server kind.
It was quite refreshing.
I can’t take it anymore. Back to casting the movie.
kml @ 28
I think that “reasonable doubt” has to be the most difficult concept to understand in American law. There’s no way to explain it: you know it when you see it.
On note 2: I hope the judge tells them ‘no’. Because requiring that would seem to me to be ‘beyond all doubt’ rather than ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’. IANAL, though.
*Sigh*.
Argh. Just when I was about to get useful things done, the refresh tango resumes.
Squonk @ 35
Yes, probably the reason for the dictionary request yesterday. But your guess is to my eye the most likely.
— Having CATHIE MARTIN, in her testimony, say the news dump on Friday was the best dodge. Monday being a late pick up — I believe the JURY understands that. To put salt on it — they will hand their verdicts in on MONDAY. // Good for them. //
Does anyone have a quick link to pages 63 and 64 that are referred to in the first note?
And I still say Kim Basinger is too old for Valerie.
Squonk @ 34
Shush up now.
““We would like clarification of the term ‘reasonable doubt’. Is it necessary for the government to present evidence that it is not humanly possible for someone not to recall an event in order to find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt?”
Pat’s instruction:
No. The standard you’ve brought up is the not humanly possible standard. Which is much higher than the reasonable standard.
(I feel I must add, IANAL, and me no sleepy at Holiday Inn either)
raven @ 36
IANAL, but my read is that they’re asking if, in order to meet the standard of proving beyond a reasonable doubt, the prosecution had to prove that there’s no conceivable way Libby would forget these events.
Pat_AlexVA @ 37
See! I said it is a problem that we demand that the least informed of citizens sit on juries and decide these things. SOMEBODY is both stoopid and stubborn.
The problem is the Judge will almost certainly say you “MUST FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS”, meaning the confusion will probably not be resolved by the judge.
Arrgghh. Waiting for Christy’s quick take ….
Breathe. In. Out. In. Out.
Biodun @ 47
Valerie’s not even gay
There’s books out there for genealogists that discusses things like evidence and doubt, for when your documentation or your evidence is a little thin. (The courthouse burned down; the family left town between censuses and you can’t find the deed to the land when they sold it; the minister took the church records with him when he retired ….) Hobbies can be very useful.
Richard S. Lackey, Cite Your Sources (University Press of Mississippi, 1980)
Elizabeth Shown Mills, Evidence: Citation & Analysis for the Family Historian (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing. Co., 1997)
I still maintain Russerts testimony nailed Scooter to the wall wrt at least one guilty verdict.
Note #2 indicates to me that someone on the jury is sticking to a “not guilty” verdict right now based on an unreasonable reading of “reasonable doubt” — hence the rest of the jurors, who disagree, are hoping to clear it up once and for all.
alton @
4
valerie is definitely cooler than kim bassinger. maybe virginia madsen could play her though ……
Gary Spence on Larry King live stated a few weeks ago that a “reasonable doubt” was the doubt that would cause one to get up to make sure that an alarm clock was set correctely.
He was challenged by a younger memeber of the panel who quickly volunteered this was “old age”.
But I like Spence’s formulation as an item of homespun wisdom. If one is going to loose sleep over it, there may be a “reasonable doubt”.
How about Cate Blanchett as Valerie?
Christy–everyone loves you but this is cruel, to leave that cliff hanger. Jeralyn has done the same.
My wild ass guess. There is one hold out who does not understand reasonable doubt. That’s why they wanted the dictionary.
And I’m betting the holdout said, if the judge says “x” than OK?
The first note, though, is intrigueing.
Remember PatFitz’s rebuttal, he said don’t rely on just one statement, look at all the cumulative statements and documents.
If it were me, I would fight till my last breath to get the re-instruction that I wanted.
Marlowe @ 55
That is my non-lawyer take too. And the judge’s instructions back will have to be clear. He should point to when he said the prosecution does not have to prove ‘beyond a scientific certainty’. That should clear it up.
You know, the casting thread is still live, way into EPU. I think someone (Celtic Music?) is aiming for 500.
Marlowe @ 55
Not a bad reading especially with the superlative “not humanly possible,” as if someone is exasperated with someone.
But WTF do I know.
Jane S. @ 59
I’m sorry. I should be patient.
attaturk @ 51
No, he will repeat his prior instruction and will probably add to it. I had a case once where the jury asked for clarification on the meaning of reasonable doubt and the instruction doubled in length and specificity
Has anyone posted the jury instructions anywhere online?
It would be interesting to read the instruction they are talking about in note 1.
sdf (Stu) @ 64
I took a lot of comfort from that phrasing as well.
looseheadprop @ 65
What do you think this means about where the jury is at or do you prefer not to speculate?
annx @ 61
What the defense will argue, and the most likely result in my experience will be the Judge responds with nothing more than YOU MUST RELY ON THE INSTRUCTIONS.
So they will have to haggle out the meaning amongst themselves over a topic that already has a definition in front of them.
looseheadprop ,
If you don’t mind,as a lawyer, what are your guts telling you ?
Send them more masking tape: they need to tie up the holdout. Or explain to them with the tape as an emphatic device (Bang! Bang!) on the table. Preferably on the table. The juror’s head might do, though.
Marlowe @ 55
That’s my take, too.
Rich @ 67
Don’t know, but there is that Plame resources sight (soory can’t find the link) and Crooks and liars had a lot of stuff
lhp @ 68, I just took comfort from you taking comfort from that analysis.
The first note seems to indicate that they haven’t been working their way methodically count by count, as some have speculated — that is to say, if Count 1 is still not resolved. Or am I misreading it?
Jane S. @ 69
I already speculated at 61
Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner!
Notice the time change on the PDFs….they didn’t want an answer today, interesting.
Updated above all, with my thoughts. Refresh your page and you’ll see the update.
Bustednuckles @ 71
See 61
If you reload this post, you’ll find the quick take already here.
looseheadprop @ 65
We’ll see, we’re both trial lawyers obviously, but I’d be surprised if there’s any clarification intially. If so, it will be a victory for Fitz. More often than not in my experience they get told to rely on just the instructions.
Here is the section that Walton should re-read to them on reasonable doubt. It is very clear and should clear up the confusion …
“The government is not required to prove guilt beyond all doubt, or to a mathematical or scientific certainty.”
In a word … the answer to #2 is “NO”.
That double ‘not’ in the second jury note is hurting my head.
bdu @ 30
Wow. I’d love to see Pach’s take on the wording here, but it looks to me like the foreman is really frustrated with one or two people who are either not terribly bright but who make up for it by being stubborn (and didn’t listen to the judge’s instructions or multiple explanations from other jurors) or who are closet wingnuts and are pretending to be dumb in order to explain why they’re holding out.
I wonder if it’s a Pelican Brief but in reverse?
Thanks LHP, I skimmed the thread and missed it.
(munching on cheeseburger)
I just got back with lunch.
I hope the judge writes out his expanded “reasonable doubt” instruction on a large flip chart for them on Monday. With plenty of post-its attached.
Worth the wait Christy. I didn’t want to read Jeralyn (even though I respect her thinking) b/c of her defense bias!
Ugh, I hate dealing with people who are so rigid in their thinking that it flies against common sense. I feel sorry for the jury if indeed there is one holdout who is at the “humanly possible” level of intransigence.
Commenter over at TalkLeft suggests that defense will argue vigorously against the judge giving clarification for precisely that reason.
AAARGH.
Marlowe @ 55
Thank you for such a common sense reading of the note. You and lhp have talked me back off the ledge. *g*
I was hoping for some distraction this weekend while waiting for results from medical tests, and I seem to have gotten my wish.
Woodhall Hollow @ 77
This statement reminds me of the scene in The Magic Christian where the two boxers drop their gloves and begin to kiss. The announcer says “The crowd was sickened by the site of no blood!”
sdf (Stu) @ 90
Looking again at the question, there is though a good argument that can be made for Looseheaddrops position though.
Reasonable Doubt is certainly NOT equivalent to absolute certainty which seems to be what this question is asking.
Has anyone else seen anything about the Judge not being happy about the defense making certain claims in their opening (such as Irving taking the stand) and not following through with it?
I thought I saw an article stating he was putting in words for “historical” purposes…
Raced over here when I heard of the notes, and now I cant remember where I saw it..
Fairfax @ 41
Interesting. It seems like a simple concept to me.
well, I think Scooter better have jam in his pockets Monday, because he’s toast.
Christy,
Love the Superman, lavaman, lois lane anaolgy. Priceless!
I think if I’m Pat, I really want to stuggle to get the judge to remind them that it’s not one quote, it’s the cummulative effect of a bunch of quotes, and documents, and the timeline, and, and,and…
The good news here folks, is in both instances, the likely instruction really favors Team Fitz.
And smebody upthread mentioned this, I DO THINK they picked up on the Cathy Martin Friday afternoon news dump business. I think they are showing off how sophisticated they have become about these things.
Methinks our jurors have a wee bit of a sense of humor.
As of five minutes ago, Jeralyn still hadn’t posted her take on this. The comments are looking like these, though.
Jane S. @ 59
And Marcy, with her Fitz conversation.
What if we all donate funds with a .comeonalready! at the end of it?
annx @ 50
On the plus side, I remembered to breathe today!
Jerry Spence even. Sorry Jerry.
raven @ 93
707!Christy:
Reasonable, not beyond all doubt. Not beyond any doubt you can conjure up in your brain.
That’s clear as crystal. Yes, possibly one (or more) holdout(s) in the jury. They asked for the dictionary because they wanted to look up resonable perhaps?
Interesting. Some case, this.
…one of the Ph.D.’s on the jury has headed into the weeds. (Not to say that lawyers aren’t perfectly capable of weediness, too, mind you,…
someone’s gonna get his/her picture on the Weedies box.
sdf (Stu) @ 90
Commener is right. If I were Wells that is exactly what I would do. Hopefully PJF will argue even harder for an expaned explaination
holy heck. we are still debating count I??
I think I’m not cut out for this.
I also think that the perfect person for Valerie is Cybil Shepard, circa 1977.
P J Evans @ 99
Jeralyn is up now. She thinks there is a hold out on the jury (the mathemetician) who thinks prosec. hasn’t proved beyond “reasonable doubt” as someone above suggested.
JoyB @ 100
That was a painful wait and it probably wasn’t more than 4 minutes.
looseheadprop @ 98
Maybe they are so sophisticated and pissed at the media/OVP that they are making sure the verdict is delivered on a Monday.
:)
-Safi
Christy, thanks so much for the lucid analysis.
Therese Flanagan @ 84
If I’m reading it correctly, it means that one of the jurors is trying to hold out for “not guilty” because they think there’s at least a microscopic chance Libby could have forgotten talking to everyone and their brother about Plame, and claiming that .0000000001% chance that it could have happened means they can’t find him guilty.
I have faith that Judge Walton will gently and tactfully but thoroughly explain things to them.
punaise @ 105
hahahahahahahaha
Oh well, Monday will get here soon enough I suppose.
As much as I want to see Scooter get what I think he so justly deserves, I can wait.
I am still greatly disappointed that KKKarl hasn’t got his tit in a wringer.I was so primed for that,even though this whole thing has a long way to go I’m thinking.
And I am really,really hoping that after the Scooter phase of this gets some sort of ending that there will be more and more perps get sucked into the defense side of some serious legal charges for this disgraceful train wreck of events.
Jeralyn’s take is up, and echoes what is being suggested here:
Safi @ 110
I wonder if this means cheney has to keep flying around the world till then?
He’s become like the Flying Dutchman!
They should have chosen an English major over a mathematician.
grumble, grumble, grumble…