
On Thursday afternoon, Emptywheel live blogged an legal argument between Fitz and Jeffress over the upcoming testimony of Ari Fliesher. You can find it here at 4:27 pm.
That discussion was later covered by the Associated Press:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Attorneys for former vice presidential aide I. Lewis ''Scooter'' Libby want more information about an unusual immunity-from-prosecution deal that government lawyers gave former White House spokesman Ari Fleischer in the CIA leak case.
Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald says that in early 2004, as his investigation was heating up into who revealed CIA operative Valerie Plame's name to reporters, Fleischer stepped forward with an offer to prosecutors: Promise no prosecution and he would help their case.
Fleischer acknowledged being one of the leakers, but he wouldn't say a word without a promise of immunity.
Prosecutors normally insist on an informal account of what a witness will say before agreeing to such a deal. It's known in legal circles as a proffer, and Fitzgerald said Thursday that he never got one from Fleischer, who was chief White House spokesman for the first 2 1/2 years of President Bush's first term.
''I didn't want to give him immunity. I did so reluctantly,'' Fitzgerald said in court Thursday. ''I was buying a pig in a poke.''
Defense attorneys are skeptical. Fleischer is expected to testify Monday against Libby, who is accused of lying and obstructing Fitzgerald's investigation. Attorneys are preparing court documents demanding to know exactly what Fleischer promised in exchange for immunity.
''I'm not sure we're getting the full story here,'' defense attorney William Jeffress said in court. . .
What is Jefferess referring to? Jeffress knows that there is a process often used by federal prosecutors to get a preview of the likely testimony that witness seeking a plea deal or immunity agreement might give. This process is known as a "proffer" session and it comes about as a result of a limited one day immunity agreement letter known in the biz as a "Queen for a Day" letter.
First you should realize that there a different types of immunity and it can be obtained in different ways. For example: if a witness does not want to testify and asserts their 5th Amendment right against self incrimination, the government can seek a court order giving that person immunity and then force that person to testify. This is also known as statutory or formal immunity.
The DOJ Criminal Resource Manual describes the different types of immunity orders that may be granted:
717 Transactional Immunity Distinguished
Title 18 U.S.C. § 6002 provides use immunity instead of transactional immunity. The difference between transactional and use immunity is that transactional immunity protects the witness from prosecution for the offense or offenses involved, whereas use immunity only protects the witness against the government's use of his or her immunized testimony in a prosecution of the witness -- except in a subsequent prosecution for perjury or giving a false statement
718 Derivative Use Immunity
The use immunity statute (18 U.S.C. § 6002) allows the government to prosecute the witness using evidence obtained independently of the witness's immunized testimony. Section 6002 provides:
[N]o testimony or other information compelled under the order (or any information directly or indirectly derived from such testimony or other information) may be used against the witness in any criminal case, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a false statement, or otherwise failing to comply with the order.
The Supreme Court upheld the statute in Kastigar v. United States, 406 U.S. 441 (1972). In so doing, the Court underscored the prohibition against the government's derivative use of immunized testimony in a prosecution of the witness. The Court reaffirmed the burden of proof that, under Murphy v. Waterfront Commission, 378 U.S. 52 (1964), must be borne by the government to establish that its evidence is based on independent, legitimate sources:
This burden of proof, which we affirm as appropriate, is not limited to a negation of taint; rather, it imposes on the prosecution the affirmative duty to prove that the evidence it proposes to use is derived from a legitimate source wholly independent of the compelled testimony.
Kastigar, supra, at 460.
By contrast, there is also a situation where witnesses themselves, knowing that they have valuable information, want to trade that information for immunity. This is known as "informal immunity" because it is not the result of a formal court order. The Criminal Resource Manual explains informal immunity thusly:
719 Informal Immunity Distinguished From Formal Immunity
Statutory immunity, also known as formal immunity, should be distinguished from informal immunity. The latter term, often referred to as "pocket immunity" or "letter immunity," is immunity conferred by agreement with the witness. For example, the government and a cooperating defendant or witness might enter into a plea agreement or a non-prosecution agreement if the defendant or witness agrees to cooperate. Testimony given under informal immunity is not compelled testimony, but is testimony pursuant to an agreement and thus voluntary. The principles of contract law apply in determining the scope of informal immunity. United States v. Plummer, 941 F.2d 799, 802 (9th Cir. 1991); United States v. Britt, 917 F.2d 353 (8th Cir. 1990), cert. denied, 498 U.S. 1090; United States v. Camp, 72 F.3d 759 (9th Cir. 1996) [replacing 58 F.3d 491 (9th Cir. 1996)]. Grants of informal immunity that do not expressly prohibit the government's derivative use of the witness's testimony will be construed to prohibit such derivative use. Plummer, supra. But a grant of informal immunity that expressly provides for derivative use of the testimony by the government will be upheld. United States v. Lyons, 670 F.2d 77, 80 (7th Cir. 1982), cert. denied, 457 U.S. 1136.
An important difference between statutory/formal immunity and informal immunity is that the latter is not binding upon the States. This follows from the fact that the local prosecutor representing the State is normally not a party to the agreement between the witness and the Federal prosecutor, and thus cannot be contractually bound by the Federal prosecutor's agreements. </blockquote>
If I understood the exchanges between the lawyers as blogged by Marcy, Ari Fliesher has an informal immunity agreement, rather than a formal immunity order. Prosecutors do not give out these agreements like candy, you know, and only do so when they believe it is necessary to do so to get something of higher value than the conviction of the witness seeking immunity. Remember, if the guy wants immunity HE thinks he may have committed a crime.
As Pat said, prosecutors are not happy to buy a "pig in a poke", so how do you find out whether or not the witness has testimony (or tangible evidence) to give you that is worth more to your investigation than his own criminal conviction?
Enter: The Queen for a Day agreement. This one day immunity deal allows the witness to come in for a proffer session and give a little preview of his testimony. Agents usually take detailed notes because if the witness is found not to be telling the truth, or if he later tries to tell a different story, he can be prosecuted under the false statements crimes and the notes are needed to preserve evidence for that possible subsequent prosecution.
I found a nifty article on Findlaw written by a defense lawyer that explains this well:
Proffer or "queen for a day" letters are written agreements between federal prosecutors and individuals under criminal investigation which permit these individuals to tell the government about their knowledge of crimes, with the supposed assurance that their words will not be used against them in any later proceedings. (The individuals can either be witnesses, subjects or targets of a federal investigation, although it is subjects and targets who provide most proffers.)
[Snip]
You should think of a proffer session as a sneak preview in which you show the federal authorities what you can bring to the table if they cut a deal with you.
[Snip]
(... in the overwhelming majority of cases, the formal, written proffer agreement will explicitly state that no promises of either immunity or a plea bargain have been made.) Accordingly, your attorney and the prosecutor should have already informally worked out, before you ever sit down for the proffer session, a basic understanding of: 1) what you are likely to proffer; and, 2) what the contemplated post-proffer immunity or plea agreement will look like. To the extent that either part of this informal understanding is not perfectly clear to you, your attorney, and the federal prosecutor, you are heading into exceedingly dangerous territory. Why? Because, proffering will almost always harm you if post-proffer immunity/plea discussions fall apart and the government decides to indict you. For the same reason, if the prosecutor is not trustworthy or if you are not prepared to tell the complete truth, the proffer session should never take place.
[Snip]
Unlike immunity or plea agreements, proffer agreements do not prevent the government from making derivative use of your statements. In other words, although the government cannot use your actual proffer session statements against you in its case-in-chief, it can use the information that you provide to follow up leads and conduct further investigations. If those leads and further investigations capture new evidence, such evidence can be used to indict and convict you.
So what makes the immunity deal for Ari unusual are several things:
1) PatFitz unhappily bought a "pig in a poke"
2) He says he does not have any discovery material to turn over with regard to Ari's testimony. Prior statements of witnesses (even if contained in interview notes) have to be turned over to the defense as Rule 3500 material. It sounds like no material was turned over. Since Pat has never been known to cheat, that can only mean that they didn't even take notes???????
Maybe I have lost my mind or am just high from WAY too much popcorn, but I think that this means that Team Fitz gambled that Ari had something huge to tell. The fact that whatever it is that PatFitz is saying he does not have to turn over to the defense even exists, to the extent it may exist, suggests to me that the investigation is not over and that maybe, just maybe, that gamble has paid off.
Please understand, this is ONLY tea leaf reading, but no other explanation suggests itself that accounts for all factors. I think maybe there is something out there, that came from Ari, that is NOT part of the proof relating to the crimes Libby is charged with (does this also explain why Libby's charges were so narrowly drawn?) that Team Libby is dying to know about and Pat is fighting hard to keep a secret. If it was all going to be over after the Libby trial, why fight so hard to keep this info secret? Why say that defense lawyers ask questions to try to find out things they are not supposed to find out?
Is Pat suggesting that Team Libby has gone to trial in an effort to force Pat to disclose what else he has found out? After all, a defense lawyer should not be asking questions that are designed to elicit information to help some other criminal, only those which are designed to help his own client. Asking questions and seeking info that does not help you client but instead benefit someone else, is a prohibited conflict of interest.
Even if the immunity deal was a gamble, it would have to be a gamble based upon Team Fitz's assessment that the immunity agreement met the proper standards for giving immunity. DOJ spells those standards out:
9-23.210 Decision to Request Immunity -- The Public Interest
Section 6003(b) of Title 18, United States Code, authorizes a United States Attorney to request immunity when, in his/her judgment, the testimony or other information that is expected to be obtained from the witness "may be necessary to the public interest." Some of the factors that should be weighed in making this judgment include:
A. The importance of the investigation or prosecution to effective enforcement of the criminal laws;
B. The value of the person's testimony or information to the investigation or prosecution;
C. The likelihood of prompt and full compliance with a compulsion order, and the effectiveness of available sanctions if there is no such compliance;
D. The person's relative culpability in connection with the offense or offenses being investigated or prosecuted, and his or her criminal history;
E. The possibility of successfully prosecuting the person prior to compelling his or her testimony;
F. The likelihood of adverse collateral consequences to the person if he or she testifies under a compulsion order.
These factors are not intended to be all-inclusive or to require a particular decision in a particular case. They are, however, representative of the kinds of factors that should be considered when deciding whether to seek immunity
9-23.212 Decision to Request Immunity -- Conviction Prior to Compulsion
It is preferable as a matter of policy to punish offenders for their criminal conduct prior to compelling them to testify. While this is not feasible in all cases, a successful prosecution of the witness, or obtaining a plea of guilty to at least some of the charges against the witness, will avoid or mitigate arguments of co-defendants made to the court or jury that the witness "cut a deal" with the government to avoid the witness's own conviction and punishment.
So, the question that will keep me from getting a good night's sleep for at least the next couple days is:
What is Ari's bombshell? And will it come out in the Libby trial or is it still hidden at the heart of an as yet incomplete Grand Jury investigation?
Arrrrghhhh! I cannot stand the suspense!
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Fitz!
lhp. sent RH Libby motions from yesterday (filed on Saturday I think). she has .pdfs
Great detective work.
If you are right, then AP (Matt Apuzzo) needs
to issue a clarification to another article where he said the Libby trial was THE END.
I don’t mean to be picky but the press stories
need to be honest and factual….
Jack
Well I don’t want to give the bastards ideas, but remember that Ari is an evil worm and he will try to fuck up the prosecution any way he can.
lurking hard
is it possible that Fitz knows what Ari was up to in Africa from a third party, so he bought the pig in the poke knowing how much it was worth in advance?
tiredfed @ 2
Were they to limit testimony or to stop it altogether?
Anyone old enough to remember the tv show Queen for a day….? Now, to read the post.
How deeply is Ari Fleischer imbedded into the neocons and the inner circle of Bush people. I still fear that they are sending in another trojan horse to appear to help our side but whose testimony will bring up something entirely new, as LHP says, and unexpected.
But he is Fitz’ witness so Fitz will have to question him very narrowly on this testimony to preserve any help for furthering any other cases.
Bay State Librul @ 3
He was reading tea leves, I am reading tea leaves. We could BOTH be wrong. It’s all just wild ass speculation.
ccmask @ 8
BTW the way. I did not coin that. These agreements are really called “Queen for a Day” letters. I have had some were the nogotiations for the letter were more complex than for the plea agreement that followed. Using them effectively is relly an art form for defense lawyers.
Thanks for a great post lhp!
GrandmaJ @ 9
I have no illusions that Ari said his testimony could help the prosecution out of any sense that Ari WANTED TO HELP the prosecution.
What Ari wanted was to save his own pasty white ass.
lhp. Libby team prepared memo on citations (Brady, Giglio) and motion to quash yesterday. got them from PACER and sent them to Redd. sorry, dont have ur email addy or would have cc’d you. Great post btw.
looseheadprop @ 10
True enough… but all AP (which is picked up nationally) had to say was “probably”….
To leave an impression without a hedge is
IMHO, bull shit… Doesn’t he have an editor?
I AM being picky… sorry…
I think (speculation) that this is just the
beginning.
I can dream huh?
Jack
saving your own ass is the best motivation. cant see Libby’s team wanting that to come out in court. hmmm.. Ari wants to save his own ass. hmmm. Libby told Ari about “the little woman” and the “junket.” hmmm. GUILTY! NEXT!
lhp:
Are you saying Fitz deliberately did not take notes of Ari’s interview in order to leave no paper trail for the Libby defense or others?
Is it just me or does anyone else think Ari should stay out of small airplanes?
motion from Libby is not to quash all of Ari’s testimony, only referring to the WAPO article that Fitz wants to get in that goes to motive (Ari’s and Scooter’s) to lie.
tiredfed at 14 — Just forwarded them onward. I haven’t had a chance to peruse through them throughly as yet myself, so we can all read them together. E-mail headed your way LHP.
Fitz must be pissed. They called him a liar and a cheater in court Friday. Hoo boy. Wouldn’t want to be Wells stuck in an elevator with Fitz on Monday!
will wait for the experts (HRH and LHP) to read and opine. your faithful (tired/public) servant.
I keep reminding people outside of the state that Fitzgerald put a fairly popular Illinois governor, George Ryan, behind bars. He’s there today, I believe, or will be in the near future, for several years.
Fitzgerald is a priest of the law. Justice is his altar. If a law was broken in the exposure of a covert agent–and it is impossible to believe that it was not–he will do everything in his power to enforce the law. If that requires the purchase of a pig in a poke, that’s what he will do.
More than a year ago he said that his investigation was over, and he would not be indicting Karl Rove. Maybe that was with respect to one crime, but not another, now revealed to him, but not yet to us.
This much, though, is clear: Fitzgerald would only grant the immunity if he thought he was going to hear something important. He’ll give up a knight for a winning position. That’s the gamble.
In my experience, mathematicians play a fine game of chess.
tiredfed @ 14
Not to worry. I have to go into the office today anyway (Libby trial folk are not the only lawyers writng motion papers this weekend)
I will print out from Pacer when I get to the office.
tiredfed @ 16
THat is my understandning of the argument as EW live blogged it.
I have this scene in my head from a book I read last year (one of a dozen or so on TraitorGate) of Ari talking to two reporters one at a time at a party of some sort in Africa. It was at night. I think Ari’s basic meme was “look into who sent Joe Wilson.” The writer described it as if he/she were there. It wasn’t Woodward (at least not in Plan of Attack). Anyone remember this passage? Could be someone else told Fitz that Ari might have something to say that could prove useful.
Federal Grand Juries are usually convened for an extended period of time. I believe the service is still 18 months from the time the jury duty is assigned until they are discharged. It is the habit of the court to keep on a jury that completes its initial assignment until they have served out the full term. They can be reconvened for other federal cases or just kept hanging in the wings in the event additional information relating to their case becomes available. Not sure when the second jury was convened, but I don’t believe their term is up yet or that they have been dismissed. I think the case is still ongoing and they are waiting to see what information comes out of this trial. I’m envisioning that Fitz is just standing there waiting to drop that other shoe. Must be some BIG shoe!
lina @ 17
I have had cases, back when I was doing public corruption cases where I thought the first case was going to be one of a long string. I did not take notes, instead had 3-4 investigators/agents/other lawyers in the room w/me so that we had muliple memories to draw upon.
This way there was no 3500 material in the first case to be used to help targets of expected later cases.
I did that sometimes in mafia investigations where you expect to have a series of cases. PatFitz used to do mafia cases, too.
lhp at 28 — I was having that same thought — you don’t want to tip off the others who may still be dangling out there with specifics on paper. And remembering that Fitz has done not only mafia/racketeering work, but also complex terrorism conspiracy cases. And wondering what lessons he learned from being patient…and wondering whether any potential targets are learning any lessons now. *g*
I’ve written a bit about my own reading of the trial, complete with my own wild-ass-guesses, over at Lukery’s place if anyone is interested. It’s in the main body and in the comments section too. My name is oldschool over there.
oldschool WAG’s
fwiw (I’m really testing my, hopefully, new-found skill at linking just learned this mornin’ too).
Wow! FDL just keeps on getting better and better. From ibises to proffers and it’s not even mid-Sunday morning yet.
The more I read of your excellent reporting and educating, the more I visualize legal scholars in future years writing dissertations on the role of FDL/blogging in the unprecedented legal cases triggered by the Bush administration.
You go, Jane and RH and Pach and TRex and the whole company.
’cause We, the People are sick of being lied to, pandered to, talked-down to…We’re educating ourselves. The sleeping giant is awake.
Good Mornin’ Firedogs and Prof. Prop,
wow lhp, really helping me string this all together with your posts -
wanted to share with you how your explanatory posts before the trial got two co workers completely hooked - chuckling at the thought of going in there today and hearing them debate the merits of derivative versus transactional - lol
tiredfed @
6
Possible.
He may have spoken to Bartlett already. Bartlett and Ari were working off the same talking points on the 11th and 12th. So it is likely Bartlett knew, tried to hang Ari out to dry, and then got screwed when Ari refused to go quietly.
LHP, thank you for the clarity of your explanations of all these legal terms and procedures as they come along in this case. Your postings should be required reading for law and criminal justice students.
looseheadprop @ 28
and lord knows, if ever there was a group of people emulating the mafia, this is it.
tiredfed @ 19
OK that’s what I thought.
I think it is a weak argument, at least the way it was done on Thursday. This may be more about making Team Fitz work extra hard over the weekend. Team libby is at least double the size of Team Fitz and has WAY WAY more creature comforts availbale to the lawyers. I sincerley doubt that Wells is staying in the kind of hotel where he has to worry about doing his own laundry on the weekend, or even picking up his shirts from the cleaners.
The travel per diems for feds is famously tiney. You do not stay in the kind of hotels where there are lots of amenities, not can you afford on that buget to take advantage of any conceirge services.
Therefore, to the extent that Team Libby can keep our intrepid Feds tired (pun intended) they can hope for mental errors, loss of will to fight, or even just the miracle of some or all of them coming down with flu because they are so run down.
This is like a war, and anything you can do to deprive the opposing army of food or sleep or warmth or any other kind of physical comfort, is one more thinng you have done to weaken your opponent.
This has been theh hallmark of the Team Libby MO from the start. Thay have been trying to wear down the prosecution with one bullshit motiton after another.
Pat even complained about it inthe courtroom. He pointed out that they had 11 lawyers and 3 law firms and that the paper jsut come flying at the proscution (which has a wopping 4, count ‘em 4 lawyers sitting at counsel table)
Need to take off for the day, but wanted to point to my diary in case anyone is interested in this topic…
This is actually about a bigger issue than my feelings about Hillary, but I know that the first response of many people will be “Gawd I’m so bored with people griping about Hillary!” This is about more than that, but I don’t know that I have these thoughts and feelings fleshed out enough to really convey that.
Click.
GrandmaJ @
9
Not very.
When he resigned, there were reports that both sides were happy with the resignation bc Ari, not being a member of the Texas mafia, was not trusted by the cabal.
Also, one of the days in Africa that week, Ari was asked a question about Blair impending (July 17) visit. Ari had no idea. THat’s bad, when the press secretary is finding out news of impending visits from the press.
tiredfed @ 21
Yeah and in response Walto pointed out that Pat was “the most scrupulous prosecotr” he had ever seen.
What a wonderful compliment. And it described Fitzgerald to a “T”
Interesting!
And here I thought it would be Rove who would be “Queen for a Day.”
Yes, a cruel shot, but one that’s deserved after all of the BS of the last 6 years.
Indict them.
Try them. And see where that leads.
Hopefully to impeachment. I was in DC yesterday and I’ve never seen so many people in one place. And I’m a pretty experienced protester. I’ve definitely never seen so many people carrying signs.
I was with the Fayetteville branch of United for Peace and Justice. When it was announced that Rove had been indicted (I think it was Tim Robbins’ who made the announcement), the crowd went wild.
Sure, it’s just an indictment. But, it’s a start.
Let the games begin…
No, no more games. Let the LAW take its course!
have been thinking for some time now that the Mafia would have been a lot more careful - that there are surviving Dons and Capos playing dominoes somewhere in Florida, shaking their heads and dissing Don Cheney for the serial lapses in discipline and loyalty
Renee in Ohio @ 37
Frank Rich on Hillary in today’s NYTimes is a must read. (can’t link - behind sub. wall).
OT - CNN has unconfirmed report of another US helicopter downed near Najaf
Trivial trivia: There must be people unfamiliar with the word “poke.” I quit using it when not many outside of my State knew what it meant. “What in the world is a ‘poke’?” (Welcome, all punsters.)
cbl @ 41
they are probably more like the Nixon brigade than the mafia. except I don’t believe even Nixon operated with this level of arrogance.
Stop the Iran War Before It Starts
Scott Ritter
President Bush’s State of the Union address proved he is hellbent on going to war with Iran. Here’s what the Democrats must do to stop him.
http://www.thenation.com/
twolf1 at 43 — Oh no.
c u n d gulag @ 40
I hate to break you heart, but Rove wasn;t indicted (at least not that we know publicly–one lives in hope though), he was Subpeonaed
“When you are attacked, you have to deck your opponent,” Clinton said. “I have been through the political wars longer than some of you have been alive. We’ve got to be prepared to hold our ground and fight back.”
Clinton has urged a cap to the number of U.S. troops in Iraq, but has refused to go along with suggestions that Congress use its power of the purse to bring the war to a halt.
“I do think we are engaged in a war against heartless, ruthless enemies,” she said. “If they could come after us again tomorrow they would do so.”
Sounds like George Bush s’t to me.
LHP
I’d like to add two really important points.
First, in a letter to Defense counsel written in January 2006–two years after Ari’s testimony–PatFitz said:
Now unless he was either forgetful or lying, then I’m assuming that he does not agree with Wells’ characterization that Ari “told” David Gregory. This makes it much more likely that Ari’s culpability comes down to what we already know from Dickerson–that Ari pushed people to go look into the source of Wilson’s trip. That’s also important, bc Bartlett was doing the same thing. It was a talking point. If it was a talking point, someone wrote that talking point, and that someone may have admitted doing so, particularly if he wanted to hang Ari out to dry.
Second. When Wells was probing about whether or not there was any verbal specifics (which it sounds like you suspect there was) PatFitz said, “Libby didn’t even come up.” Which to me implied that someone else came up. When I heard it, I assume (based on my talking point theory above) that that someone was Turdblossom, the guy feeding Ari talking points. But now I wonder whether it wasn’t someone else… And it wouldn’t just have to be Cheney (though I do believe he is the logical endpoint of any ongoing investigation). It might well be someone like Condi or even Shrub, people who were on AF1 with Ari.
No Rove indictment — just a subpoena. And one for Dan Bartlett, too. Bet it was all cheers and smiles in the West Wing this weekend, eh? No wonder they were doing so much Scooter fundraising push prior to the start of trial…
just for you, Okla. Kid.:
“This is how she explains her vote to authorize the war: “I would never have expected any president, if we knew then what we know now, to come to ask for a vote. There would not have been a vote, and I certainly would not have voted for it.” John Kerry could not have said it worse himself. No wonder last weekend’s “Saturday Night Live” gave us a “Hillary” who said, ‘Knowing what we know now, that you could vote against the war and still be elected president, I would never have pretended to support it.’
Compounding this problem for Mrs. Clinton is that the theatrics of her fledgling campaign are already echoing the content: they are so overscripted and focus-group bland that they underline rather than combat the perennial criticism that she is a cautious triangulator too willing to trim convictions for political gain. Last week she conducted three online Web chats that she billed as opportunities for voters to see her “in an unfiltered way.” Surely she was kidding. Everything was filtered, from the phony living-room set to the appearance of a ‘campaign blogger’ who wasn’t blogging to the softball questions and canned responses. Even the rare query touching on a nominally controversial topic, gay civil rights, avoided any mention of the word marriage, let alone Bill Clinton’s enactment of the federal Defense of Marriage Act.”
Frank Rich, NY Times, 1/28/07
Pig in a poke
Evidently it referes to a scam popular in the middle ages where a vendor would offer for sale a wriggling bag supposedly containing an expensive food item, a suckling pig. Instead the bag would contain a cat or large rat. Not the delicacy the buyer wanted to purchase.
it was exactly the right expression to use for the gamle on Ari’s tesimony
Ari is definitely a Queen and for more than just a day.
This is precisely why Gucky has to be on Fitz’s list.
I don’t trust this Fleischer, period. Ari Fleischer was the most glib, bald-faced liar I ever saw.
I think his testimony will be a poison pill to the prosecution and that
Ari will lie, and do so with such sneering, “catch me if you can, you slug” defiance, and chutzpah that the late John Gotti would blush at it. More, I think Ari’s role as “Poison Pill” has origins in the White House, and he will do this because Ari is a “true believer” Bushist, and has been for years.
Fitz better be at the top of his game, he has the most devious, duplicitous wordsmith to ever grace the podium at a Presidential news conference about to “shoot him the moon” from the witness box. Fleischer will lie, and will just fart in Fitz’s general direction with impunity if Fitz does not attack with razor sharp language use and “to the point, not easily outmaneuvered” questions. Ari must not be allowed to pontificate, nor fence with the prosecutor, or Fitz is doomed here and the case will collapse.
I’m just a nobody from the sticks of upstate New York, but I know a glib liar after seeing him in action for years!
Be careful of this character Ari, Mr Fitzgerald
Sally, a “poke” is a pen that one woud keep pigs in, IIRC.
more on Hil from FR:
“The issue raised by the tragedy of Iraq is not who’s on the left or the right, but who is in front and who is behind. Mrs. Clinton has always been a follower of public opinion on the war, not a leader. Now events are outrunning her. Support for the war both in the polls and among Republicans in Congress is plummeting faster than she can recalibrate her rhetoric. . .”
Two of the Texas Mafia with a close relationship are Cathie Martin and Slimeball Bartlett. Martin shouldn’t be getting a pass on some of the worst shenanigans.
emptywheel @ 50
My mind has been wandering along the same path in the weeds as yours. It is so tantilizing. The possibilites are so damn juicy.
For a person who has spent much of her adult life investigating one thing or another, the way this investigation has dripped out has THE MOST fun I have ever had with my clothes on.
So much so, that I have lost all interest in board games and card games and who done it novels and all the rest.
Littleprop is quite PO’d with me b/c I cannot focus on board games with her any more. They just don’t have the same thrill
A young cousin is thinking about joining the military. We (the family) is trying to talk her out of it. But we have told her no matter the decision we will support her. My cousin does say she thinks the Commander in Chief is a liar. So there is hope.
fitz using “pig in a poke” reminds me of hunter thompson’s old line, that these days if you call someone a pigfxxker, you’ve got to produce the pig.
which is what he’s doing. pig’s name is ari (even if he is orthodox).
Queen for a Day- Bess Myerson and Jack Daley- used to give away mink coats and washing machines to the contestant with the most pathetic story. Then send them back to their squalid existence to finish their days.
My take on Ari is that he’s a newly-wed and has no desire to get anything consummated in jail.
lhp. haha. I shudda wiki’d “pig in a poke” first. very good.
When I read emptywheel’s live blogging, I thought that they were talking about the fact that no notes existed from the time before the immunity deal was given. And, while that is probably unusual, it does make sense when thinking of analogous terrorism and mafia cases mentioned by lhp and chs in 28 and 29 above.
But after the immunity deal was given, one would expect that there was testimony given that would be available to the defense, would it not? Or, does Team Libby have no idea what Ari will testify about at all? Well, except maybe for what Libby told them himself.
The headlines of the motions to quash make it appear that even if the defense doesn’t know what Ari is going to say, they’re scared out of their minds about it.
Monday can’t happen soon enough!
this from tpm:
It turns out Ari Fleischer will be the next witness, once court resumes Monday. (Damn, just missed him!) The defense team wants to note—for the jury’s benefit—that Fleischer demanded immunity before he would agree to testify, because this might cast Fleischer’s testimony in a different light.
And here Fitzgerald makes a nice little chess move: Fine, he says, we can acknowledge that Fleischer sought immunity. As long as we explain why. Turns out Fleischer saw a story in the Washington Post suggesting that anyone who revealed Valerie Plame’s identity might be subject to the death penalty. And he freaked.
Via The Plank.
The feeling here is that no matter who runs for prez in ‘08 we will vote for the candidate who advocates peace and diplomacy. For without this, things like health care, jobs, social security, feeding the poor and Libby won’t matter.
I grew up in Western Pennsylvania where a “poke” was a bag. “I’ll put that in a poke for you.” LHP explains how the word probably came about. Interesting.
So, does everyone here believe Cheney was/is lying about never having been briefed on Wilson’s trip? Are all the staffers complicit in this lie? They all went forward with the “his wife sent him on a junket” story. Did any of them believe it?
Thad at 64 — Ari did some grand jury testimony, so the transcript of that testimony would be available to the defense of anything that is relevant to the case against Libby. I have no reason to doubt that they have it, since they have had snippets of G/J testimony and 302s for all of the other government witnesses thus far.
OfT
Huckabee just said, on MTP, that he also would have signed South Dakota’s abortion law.
More relevant stuff on this. This is an exchange from the May 5 hearing last year, when Wells and Co were trying to get precisely this kind of information on Ari:
I think this strong suggests Ari has very good documentation of the meeting with Libby–and with whomever else. Of course, that can’t be admitted without Ari’s testimony, so…
In any case, Libby’s team has been jonesing on this for a year.
Also–I sorta wonder if Ari’s email here disappeared among the 250 disappeared emails? It would be fairly easy to disappear a guy’s emails who was no longer employed at WH.
EW - great job on CSPAN yesterday BTW
lina @ 68
Believe Cheney? I don’t think so. ;)
didnt Huckabee just get his a** kicked in Ark or was he out in 8? Dems are in charge there again. and isnt he under indictment for something?
looseheadprop @ 59
I actually brought books to Plame House, thinking I might read–and I left almost all of my Plame reference books at home. Silly me. Should have brought the reference books, bc I am not reading on any other subject.
Concurrent with Treasongate there is the dual loyalty AIPAC investigation…The NIE apparently was leaked to fraud master Chalabid…Now the patsies at he committee to defend Irving Scooter Lebby are not there for free..!The Zionist enterprise is at risk.
from my reading it is clear that Team Irving is not Team Ryan in terms of resources - intellectual and otherwise
that said, it still looks to me that Wells et al have not done enough oppo research or failed to get it when they did - anyone who took the time to watch the Ryan post-conviction presser (and I did) can not help but notice Team Fitz are Spartans and apparently thrive and in fact are energized by attempts to weaken them - reallly, good luck with that Ted
> I think his testimony will be a poison
> pill to the prosecution and that
> Ari will lie,
I also wondered if all the backing and filling by the defense team on Thursday was intended to delay AF’s testimony, increasing the mental pressure on AF and giving the Cheney Cabal the weekend to work him over.
Cranky
Gee, Russert seems ever so slightly surly this morning. Wonder why? *g*
hmmm. do you suppose there’s a fax machine on AF1? talking points get distributed by email and fax, donchaknow.
Thad Beier @ 64
boilerman10 @ 55
If the performance this week is any indication, Fitzgerald is at the height of his pwoers as lawyer. I have long been a student of the game and just love watching other lawyers at trial or eppellate agrument. One of the things I like best about arguing appeals myself, is getting to watch the other arguments on for that day.
I have NEVER seen anyone approach the level of focus and authority PAtFitz displayed in the courtroom this week. I have seen him before, and he was always very good, but I have never seen him this good.
I’m sure pat will bring his “a” game to the Fleisher tstimony.
dmg @
65
Also worth mentioning is this relevant post from Josh Marshall: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c.....012149.php
Oklahoma Kiddo,
(SR?) Agreed, the next presidency is all about out of Iraq/Iran.
lina @ 68
Someone in the Administration absolutely saw it. It was referenced on February 4 2003 to the IAEA, as support for the argument that Iraq was seeking uranium. And it was used for a memo to Rummy on March 8 2003 to explain what other evidence there was for the uranium claim. The February reference is particularly interesting, since the best candidates to have used it are Armitage/Wilkerson, Libby, or Hadley.
I personally strongly believe that Hadley kicked the communicators out of discussions on this so they didn’t learn that Libby and Hadley HAD in fact USED Wilson’s report as justification for the war. WHich would mean Martin is not complicit–she’s ignorant.
Hadley and Libby? Guilty as hell.
emptywheel @ 85
thanks ew. that explains a lot.