
Ted Wells, Patrick Fitzgerald and Reggie Walton
(Quick Note: Catch Firedoglake's Jane Hamsher and Marcy Wheeler, author of "Anatomy of Deceit," streaming on Cynthia Black's radio show here as they discuss the Libby trial. This runs today at 2:00 PM EST/11:00 AM PST.)
The day began like any Washington, DC commuter's day: on the Metro. Then I got to the courthouse, and suddenly, it was no longer an ordinary day.
I watched opening statements from a seat between my incredible co-blogger Christy Hardin Smith and the vivacious (who knew?) Nina Totenberg of NPR. Her eyes always dance happily, even in repose. I lent her a pen; we whispered furtive courtroom quips. I was charmed.
Marcy Wheeler, the eponymous emptywheel who has been liveblogging the trial for the last week, is amazing. She types so fast! If you want to get up to speed on this case, you really need to buy her book. The day of opening statements, Christy and I were in the courtroom while Marcy, er, womaned the keyboard from the media room.
A trial is a complex thing. There's all the evidence, rules of evidence, legal stuff and rules for jury deliberations, but anyone who has interviewed jurors after a trial (and I have) knows that it's often the unpredictable elements, the very human elements, jurors hang on to and remember. As I watched opening statements this week from inside the courtroom, as preoccupied as I was with taking notes of the competing arguments, I was also most attentive to the ebb and flow of human energy, the little looks and asides, the personalities and the dynamics of people and perceptions, as best I could read them, drawing on my experience and my doctorate in psych. I want to share a little of what it was like to be in the courtroom, through my perceptions of how the players came across.
Here's the thing: in my view, the three dominant personalities in the room - Pat Fitzgerald, Reggie Walton and Ted Wells - are all engaged in a complex game of "who's your daddy?," both among themselves and, perhaps most especially, for the jury and the media. Think of it as an alpha male American Idol for the jury and the public, where the ultimate prize is the jurors' trust and confidence, with public perception a very close second.
Reggie Walton:
Walton's courtroom personality is actually pretty likable. He's very thoughtful when he speaks to jurors, and he talks to them, not at them. His style is very empowering of a jury, allowing them to do some things not all judges do. He gives them paper and pens, so they can take notes. He describes their role to them as "judges" of fact. He tells the sixteen jurors and alternates that there are seventeen judges in the room: himself, as the judge of the law and the process, and the jurors themselves. That's some nice framing. He lets them know that if they need a break, they should just signal, and he'll stop the proceedings. Each member of the jury has access to an emergency brake.
When Walton speaks, he speaks in what comes across generally as a down to earth style. He doesn't shout or preen, and he even shows flashes of humor. It's his court room, to be sure, but he does not seem to try to flaunt or prove it to anybody. True, he can drag on a bit with some of his favorite stories, like the one about the importance of serving on a jury, illustrated by his experiences in Russia when he did some work abroad to help people understand what a functioning judicial system is all about. But for all that, he's not a windbag. Walton seems okay, though I have no idea how he is in terms of fairness in the law. From what I can tell, he seems to be playing it pretty straight.
Walton's had to deal with a fair amount of legal jockeying between Fitzgerald and Wells. For example, on day one of the trial, Wells made a bit of a flourish during his opening statement to suggest, rather indirectly, that a requirement that he read certain descriptions of classified information to the jury verbatim represented a kind of government conspiracy to place limits on the defense's ability to tell its full side of the story.
This implication was not so much in the text of what Wells said (he's too smart for that), but in the rather dramatic way he said and repeated it. Fitzgerald objected after the break, outside of the presence of the jury, and Walton tended to agree with the prosecution. He required Wells to make a clarifying statement in front of the jury, and then added his own fairly mild statement to the effect that the defense has been fully enabled to present its case through rulings of evidence made by the court.
Fitz didn't think Walton's statement went far enough, since he wanted to convey that the prosecution also has limits on what it could bring out related to classified evidence. Walton wasn't buying that argument completely though, since, technically, the prosecution stems from the executive branch of government, which could, if it chose to do so, declassify information at will. Through all of this, Walton seemed to listen genuinely to both sides, made his decision, and said with some humility (as he now has done more than once), "Look, if I'm wrong, I'll be reversed, if it comes to that, but this is my decision."
The feeling is this is very much Reggie Walton's courtroom, but he does not seem to feel the need to push his personality as some kind of dominating presence. Still, I found it a little unnerving when the glare of the lights off his glasses made it impossible for me to tell if he was watching me as I surreptitiously scarfed some M&M's from my jacket pocket after lunch. I got a little paranoid there for a minute.
Ted Wells:
Wells is a bit of a wild card, and laid down his marker with an aggressive opening statement. Before he began, he was pacing off to the side of the courtroom, almost in the corner, gathering his focus. Then, once he began, he shot out of the box, loudly, passionately, even angrily introducing himself as the "voice of Scooter Libby," whom he declared to be completely innocent.
Hmm. . .
Okay, here's my thing with Wells. Were I the accused in any trial, I would want my attorney to make an aggressive case on my behalf. My natural sympathies tend to align with the defense, civil liberties and civil rights liberal that I am. But Wells is coming across to me as a wee bit reckless, and his theatrics, when he employs them, just a tad contrived. My gut sense is this is the generally shared view in the courtroom: from what I can suss out of some jurors' body language, they have their doubts as well.
I struggle to question and check myself: do I harbor this impression because I expect and believe that Libby is guilty, and not merely of the current charges at the bar? It's possible, but I don't think so. I've seen plenty of presentations, professional speakers (in fact, I am one), and stage productions, so I'm coming at this more purely from a stage/courtroom/audience dynamics perspective. Take what follows for whatever it may be worth.
I frequent the Shakespeare Theater here in DC, whose productions are typically top notch. I know persuasive, compelling acting from technically good but somehow slightly off key performances. I have found myself both convinced and unconvinced by performances, and authentic live acting sears itself upon your consciousness: it doesn't look like acting. What can I say? Wells didn't do that for me, though with his dramatic flourishes and flashes of fury against supposed government abuses, he surely was trying, not so much to persuade me, but to persuade the jury and the press corps as a whole.
Wells is a risk taker, though maybe he's that way because the facts so far in this case are so bad for him. He seems to be laying the groundwork for at least three potentially exculpatory narratives, not all of which are simultaneously logically consistent. No doubt he's hoping the jury won't notice: he seems to want to create as much confusion as possible through high volume irrelevancies and a surfeit of confusing detail.
In the end, his opening statement was most notable not only for its volume, but because it was just so. . . damn. . . long. Fitz took an hour; in contrast, Wells took two hours and twenty minutes, right through the afternoon, after lunch. You could feel the energy ebbing in the room, and see the posture of several jurors incrementally sag, so much so that Wells apologetically implored the jurors to "stay with" him.
When Wells speaks, he clearly seems to want to use his body, his presence and his voice to control the room. Maybe it's because I do public presentations and have studied all the little tricks for gathering the attention of an audience to you, but Wells is doing lots of them, and I'm sure it's not an accident. Of all the three wannabe "daddies" in the room, Wells is the one most obviously campaigning for the job. Again, I suppose he has to do this, both because trials in our system tend to favor the prosecution and because the facts in this case may really suck for Libby.
Wells has an uphill battle to fight and he's working hard, but is he winning the trust of the jury? His is also a defense strategy tailored to apply pressure for a pardon, in which effort perception management in the media is of primary importance. Can he convince, not only the jurors, but members of the press that Scooter Libby, of all people, is a powerless pawn and victim?
I don't think he's off to a great start. One more senior African American woman on the jury was giving him a serious look of. . . how shall I describe it?. . . "I know you crazy!" incredulity for the first ten or fifteen minutes of his opening statement. Wells sometimes tries to use a bit of classic African American cadence in his speech when he's on a roll, but he still has this patrician air about him that makes it feel somehow contrived. Walton does it and it sounds completely natural and authentic, and I don't expect the contrast with Walton in the courtroom is one Wells is accustomed to or one from which he's deriving any great benefit, if indeed he's aiming for a kind of folksy, traditionally African American authenticity.
Outside of the presence of the jury, it seems Wells may have lost a minor credibility point or two with the judge, and Walton's opinion matters. Judge Walton has approached this case with a generous posture, trying hard to allow the defense to present its case, through four months of CIPA hearings and by offering the defense some laititude in the questioning of potential jurors' possible biases against the administration during voir dire. But late this week, Walton more or less called bullshit on Wells over a matter of the defense team's ability to review what turned out to be a rather small stack of documents in time to cross examine Cathie Martin. From emptywheel's notes: "Walton: I thought we were talking about reams and reams of documents. With all the lawyer power you got over there I don't think you'll have a problem." D'oh!
Moreover, with even greater animation, Walton declared it would be "suicide" for Libby not to testify in his own defense if he wants to make a case about his faulty memory. That, after all, was the point and the presumption behind all those months of painstaking CIPA hearings. Walton's opinion matters, not only because Wells will need almost every close call on matters of law to go his way to create as much reasonable doubt as possible, but because, at least subliminally, greater confidence by the judge in the prosecution could very easily seep imperceptibly into the minds of jurors. And while the jury does not see this backstage legal wrangling, the press does, and as mentioned, Wells needs to win the public perception war to give Bush as much possible incentive to pardon as possible. I don't envy him: Wells has a helluva tough job.
So, to sum up on Wells, I have a great deal of sympathy for his situation: he's not been dealt a strong hand with this case, and to try to win this one, he has to try to complete Hail Mary pass after Hail Mary pass. He's struggling mightily to pull it off. In my view, he's just not doing it, so far. Still, it's a long trial process, and all he needs to do is make one big connection one time, one "if it does not fit, you must acquit" moment that at least one juror can hang onto, and he could win. You never know. He is a highly able, highly accomplished attorney, by reputation one of the best in his profession.
Pat Fitzgerald:
I'll keep this one a bit simpler, if only because Fitzgerald tends to keep things simpler, at least in his questioning, his opening statement and his other communication, especially in front of a jury.
Let's start with what Reggie Walton said of him on the record, outside of the presence of the jury, calling him one of the most scrupulous prosecutors he's ever had before him. Everything about Fitz, in front of the jury and away from the jury, screams "straight arrow." It seeps through everything, and he carries himself as one who feels he does not have to rush his case, overcomplicate things or resort to gimmicks or histrionics.
Of course, he gets to choose what cases he will bring to trial, so he has the luxury of waiting until he has everything lined up. He does not come across as a gambler, which is why it must have really killed him to take a flier in Fleischer, buying a "pig in a poke" by granting him immunity on the blind.
Fitz may keep things simple, but as a presence, there's nothing really all that simple about him. There's a bit of opacity swirling around Fitz, and it's not just his office's perpetual "no comment." It's also just Fitz. He may sit in repose with his hand on his chin, or fingers absent mindedly tugging at his ear, but his mind is wide awake. Something's going on in there. I've found that people who come across this way actually can gain a power advantage in their interactions with others, as long as people feel or sense that what is hidden can be trusted.
Though openness can create trust and gain the confidence of others, opacity also has its power, if only because people want to figure out and are drawn to a person of mystery. If the mystery comes across as possibly nefarious, however, then all bets are off. That's why Wells' early loss of ground with the judge in the credibility sweepstakes versus Fitz is bad for the defense: to make Fitz look shifty, the defense is going to need some help somewhere from the judge.
One underestimated Fitz ability is his talent for telling a story. "Tell me a story, daddy!" says the young child at bedtime. The daddy sweepstakes are all about trust and taking the jury where you want them to go, and so the power of narrative is critical in the process. Fitz told a rather tight, linear, simple story to the jury of the case with his opening statement, in calmly compelling language, especially in contrast to Wells' epic and confusing opening presentation.
Wells is a thunderer, and if you're going to make that work, the audience needs to buy in to your story of injustice and outrage, and must find your American Idol power crescendos compelling and perfectly tuneful. Fitz, on the other hand, is going for the steady dad image, the one you can quietly trust to take care of you and sort everything out for you at the end. He croons in quieter tones that come across as more natural, less forced. Walton talks to the jury; Wells seemed often and in his opening to be talking at the jury. Fitz also talks to the jury, doing his Atticus Finch thing. As Harper Lee suggested, juries can really appreciate that, even if, in To Kill a Mockingbird, Atticus, arguing for the defense, lost his case.
I shared an elevator ride with Fitz the morning of opening statements. "Let's go, Mets," I offered, knowing I could not get anything of substance from him even if I tried. He has this way of talking that comes across as almost shy, with his lips a little tight on one side of his mouth, not wanting to betray too much (I was wearing my media badge, too). Nevertheless, he chatted me up about the Mets, the pending start of Spring training and the disappointing end to the football Giants' season through six floors. He carries a kind of humble air about him that must be maddening to defense attorneys, though behind it all clearly lurks a killer instinct and a kind of missionary zeal for the cases he chooses to pursue. Fitz is not a man to be misunderestimated in a courtroom.
So, who's the daddy? (Do I sound like Maury Povich?)
Thus far, Walton has kept his handle on the attorneys and the process, and the jurors really seem to like him. He needs to ride this case out and keep from being reversed, and though I'm no judge of the legal aspects of all that, from what I can gather from the legal brains running around, he seems on reasonably safe ground so far.
Wells is trying hard to be the daddy, and has perhaps the toughest job to establish that kind of credibility, but he's also hit some bad notes, and it's begun, in my view, to hurt him (and his client). He has time to make all this up, however.
Fitz seems to me to be ahead in the daddy sweepstakes: if he's channeling Atticus Finch, well, Atticus is the idealized dad, after all. The press is not buying the idea that Fitz is an out of control prosecutor, floated earlier by Team Libby and the Barbara Comstock disinformation operation, because the decision not to indict Rove completely undercuts that narrative.
We'll see how all of this unfolds, but I'll probably be back in the courtroom tomorrow to check in again with the jury, watch how they're responding, and see whatever wrangling ensues among these three sturdy egos during the inevitable arguments over Ari Fleischer's testimony.
Stay tuned!
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Fitz! Pach!
EPU’d, but not off topic:
I learned quite a bit about immunity from lhp’s great post this morning. Anyone who skipped it should go back and check. And Elizabeth de la Vega’s reminiscences of protest, upheaval and illegal government activities from 35 years ago jostled my memory about these times as much as anything I’ve read recently. I remember a lot, but we all forget things for one reason or another. Thanks, Ms. de la Vega. Marvin Gaye, indeed. Played CJ and the Fish for my kids on a road trip last summer. They’d never heard him before. Eventually we were all singing “One, two three, four, what are we fighting for?”
Re the queries on whether or not juries are intimididated by all the Gucci lawyers at Libby’s long table (do they sit him as Jesus among the Apostles?), from my experience on juries, they are a bit, but not nearly as much as they are impressed by the competence of same and of the prosecution. One faux pas toward or deliberate slighting of the jury or jurors can screw up the best defense or prosecution bigtime.
I’m looking forward to having a defense attorney joining the fdl blogging next week. She’s gotta blow our minds to outdo Marcy’s Thursday briliance.
And, I’ll add in now - thanks Pach. I liked your running commentary even better than your late night Billie Holiday clip, which was priceless.
Sorry, not clear. In the paragraph beginning “Though openness” under the Fitz section, Walton’s should be Wells’ (I think you will see, refers to the defense atty, not the judge)
bg @
3
I don’t understand, though I appreciate the edits! Can you repeat?
Team America is the daddy.
bg: Nevermind, I found it.
Thanks!
BTW, thanks for all this, TEAM FDL, winning, all around.
Looking forward to the second week of Fitztivus.
Merry Fitztivus to All.
The Libby Trial Has Two Daddies.
Eli @ 8
Um, and at least two mommies. You know, if anyone says FDL is not being fair, like giving every hand up/out to the defense, well, ESAD.
Jane and Marcy will be on AAR Phoenix on Cynthia Black’s show Action Point at 2ET,11 PST.
Live stream here:
http://actionpointonline.com/
Eli @
9
We’re having a gay ol’ time.
Thanks Pachacutec! What a superb word portrait and I especially enjoyed your M&M moment and the mental image you invoked of sitting between Redd and Nina. I do so hope the defense team observed the three of you in the courtroom, adding further to their angst and trepidation.
Thanks for the insights. You folks posting at fdl have put together a wonderful team of complementary perspectives. Others have said it or something like it, but I will add my voice to the claim that “if you are not actually making history (and I think you are), all of you are doing a fantastic job of recording and commenting on it as it happens.”
More thanks from Greece, and I am looking forward to Jane’s return to the scene in Washington. It is great to see that she has been back to posting over the last day or so.
The Law is the Daddy, and from your narrative, it seems like Fitz and Walton are consciously on the same side, and Wells knows he’s stretching a weak hand.
My own hope for the proceeding is that enroute to proving the prosecution’s case, we find out that the administration knowingly took the country to war on a lie, and the attack on the Wilsons was motivated by their determination to protect the knowing as much as the lie itself.
Maybe Tommy Yum, if he’s hanging about, can compose and FDL theme song based on the Flintstones song?
Anyone hear anything updated about Esten?
History, yes. People have been promoting their favorites to play Fitz, but when Jane produces the movie, who will play the various FDL roles?
I also want to say a big Thank You to the FDL team for covering this most important trial and explaining in clear terms what is actually happening with no spin.
OT Further adventures in reading the New York Times.
In an article entitled Saudi Officials Seek to Temper the Price of Oil by Jad Mouawad, the case is laid out that:
All the usual arguments for this are trotted out. The Saudis want a stable price. They want a price that will not cause the world economy to wean itself off oil. They wish to protect their investments (OK, I may have added that one). Low prices weaken the Iranians.
Even Cheney’s November 2006 trip to Saudi Arabia is thrown in. This is the one where the Saudis summoned Cheney because of their displeasure over Iraq and Bush backing of the Shia government over the Sunnis. The author doesn’t give the background and admits he doesn’t know whether oil was discussed. Given how pissed the Saudis were at the time, I doubt a pro-American oil policy was what was topmost on the agenda.
My real beef though is that Mouawad never explains why Saudia Arabia backed OPEC production cuts last fall (favoring higher prices) when the price of crude was ~$60 per barrel. Now $50 per barrel is OK. What changed?
Mouawad also observes that speculation in commodities markets, weather and political turmoil are major determiners of price but that “consumer pressures ultimately hold sway.” What is absent from these remarks is production. Currently, the amount of oil in the markets is good and the flow appears stable. It is this which is keeping prices down. And yes, if there is a war somewhere, the US economy heats up, or if the weather gets too cold or too hot, this could change, but for now this is where we are.
The most likely explanation for the Saudis’ actions is that they can see where the market is, realize that they can live with it, and have decided to proclaim that this was their intension all along (even if it wasn’t).
Parenthetically, the article quotes Amy Myers Jaffe and identifies her as “the associate director of Rice University’s energy program.” Rice University is the home of the James A. Baker III Institute for Public Policy, and Myers Jaffe runs its energy unit. She was also a member of the Economy and Reconstruction working group of the Iraq Study Group. I have no problem with her being quoted. She is an expert, but one with close ties to James Baker. In a discussion on oil policies and prices, that is a connection worth noting.
If Walton wins the Daddy role, it won’t hurt that Fitz is a natural as a older brother.
bg @ 17
My experience is that it is always unfortunate to cast one’s or one’s friends’ roles in history before or while such history happens. That is a significant part of why this trial is happening and is being covered so well here.
One thing at a time, please…..
Pach - this is an awesome piece! Thank you … it’s so great to get the feel of the courtroom along with the legal maneuvers - and you put us all right there!
Siun @
11
Help! i get this error message:
Siun @ 22
Especially the comparisons between Walton and Wells.
Pach -
Another great piece, thank you and enjoy the coming week!
Kathryn in MA - it works for me but I’m on IE … one sec,I’ll find the other link
Try this one: http://1480kphx.com/
Siun @
27
so far so good…then click on what?
Kathryn in MA @ 28
Try Listen Live in the menu on the right.
Hugh @ 19
They may also want to indemnify themselves against appearance of collusion with the Bushies, especially since Bush wants to more than double the size of the strategic reserves. That will take oil off the market (about 800 million barrels’ worth), thus putting upward pressure on price. Not much pressure, given the proposed rate of increase, but perhaps enough to get the market and the hedge funds speculating again. That speculation was one of the major reasons for the price increases last year.
How this affects profits depends a lot on who’s got what contracts with the producers (because the speculation affects almost singularly the spot prices), but those aren’t often known because of confidentiality agreements.
Someone’s going to be making a bundle on this move–no wonder Cheney was smiling at the mention of this in the SOTU.
Siun @
27
works!
ember @
20
or, certainly, as the favored son…
Listening to Jane and Marcie on AAR! Go, Ladies!
FWIW, another MacOSX user who tried 1480kphx.com, there’s a listen live link, but it still puts up streams that look very PC-centric, so no joy up in Boston-land. Anyone able to listen on OSX, and if so with what, please?
(((Jane)))
i hear something … scooping the mainstream media - displaced by bloggs CHS and MTwheeler!
firedoglake markos came to gether to release MTW’sbook
jane hamsher she sounds fantastic
marcy on
Yup! Marcy & Jane!!! Go Girls!!!
you got it Kathryn!
S.O.S. from MA @
34
yup, pick the “other one” on the first open window and then pick the one that is not windows media and it will play thru itunes
S.O.S. from MA @
34
I’m OSX 10.4.8 and did the same as #29 above…
fascinating publishing experiment loves the book they are covering the libby trial
taking calls
S.O.S. from MA @ 34
I use Firefox and WMP for the stream.
OT but please go listen to this:
http:/www.electricpolitics.com and listen to interview with Bruce Fein
Very scary. What to do?
click the 1480 link, then choose the nova-something in the popup window… then pick the NON wma link
for os 10.4
S.O.S. from MA @ 34
When you click Listen Live, a window should open that has a link on the bottom for the VLC player for Macs. I’ve used VLC on Linux (Ubuntu), but not on a Mac, and it works pretty well on Linux.
blogosphere can publish quickly in time for trial unlike a traditional publishing houses arent set up to do
great writers great researchers can promote it quickly get it to #1 on amazon - Keith O’s book GlennGreenwald’s book.
Jane!!! Do internet television!!! Please!!!
[listening to the stream now]
edit: there, found the link I was looking for…”YouTube wants to pay you” — here’s the business model!!! FireDogLakeTV!!
can have an effect on the market outside of the blog why not wiht our own writer. look for talent within the blogosphere and outside. new projects? sticking to books at this time
YIKES!
Welcome, Phoenix people…
Trial lawyers usually make a concerted effort not to try to compete before the jury with the judge for the role of “daddy”. In fact, that almost always backfires. The real competition is always with the opposing lawyer, because the jury will — usually very early in the process — pick one lead lawyer as the trusted guide or story teller to lead them or explain to them the narrative of the case.
Neither side’s lawyer wants to be the “judge of the law” and so wisely they leave that venue entirely to the judge. Instead, they want to be the trusted explainer of the facts to the “judges of the facts”, the jury. The most compelling psychological force at work in a jury is the desire to right a wrong — that is different than the desire to do justice. So, each side attempts to shape the narrative of the trial’s facts in a way that simultaneously tells the story of the wrong and shows the jury the way to right that wrong.
The most effective means of accomplishing this, and all experienced trial lawyers know this, is to tell a story that leads the jury to conclude for themselves what they must do. It is always a mistake for a lawyer to tell the jury that they must do this or that. You want to cause the jury, by the shape of your story, to ask itself your questions, not the other side’s questions. To make that happen, a trial lawyer must frame the facts and present the evidence in a manner that makes his/her story the most trusted story or narrative. Probably more effort goes into this part of pre-trial preparation than another abstract aspect of preparation.
Jane’s background on FDL mentioned Natural Born Killers (got cheers) started FDL 2 yrs ago to keep media responsible.
Breaktime - Jane did great! Marcy coming up.
I guess from here on out, no one new to fdl will be misunderestimating you, Pach. A very informed and ejoyable read.
It’s interesting to think of the dynamic in terms of who claims the trusted father role, but also to think of the dymnamics of the triad as a whole. I think you paint a picture of a situation that works against Wells on two accounts.
One relates to the contrast between having two of the three in the triad being African American. From the nuanced details you describe, it appears that Walton’s personal characteristics, as well as the fact that he is the judge, tend to offset if not expose the contrived aspects of Wells presentation that otherwise might be more distinct and compelling.
The other aspect relates to my sense that as it relates to the perception of observers, consciously or not, Walton and Fitzgerald form a more congruent pair than Walton and Wells. This is perhaps an overstatement and a reach, but I have the sense that people tend to align with who they perceive represents the majority. I think the meaning of align in this context is subject to more clarification, but having a judge as one of the two is a favorable association.
I think both of those points compound to isolate the impact of Wells’ arguments.
And then there’s the evidence.
.
Jane sounds great - super good points being made by Cynthia about the role of the media and Jane’s discussion of reaching out beyond the blogs with all the good writing and research to people who are not online all the time.
CynthiaBlack-jeff cohen baghdad confidential - not only administration to took us to war but also the media
Jane- exactly that is whatthis book is about.
break for ads
OldCoastie @ 39
Tnx!! iTunes on, commercials for NovaM Founders Club. Advertising a similar deal to AAR Premium… Anyhow thanks!!! :)
Thanks. What were the rules given to jurors about what they could and could not do while off?
Christy gets mentioned, famous in Phoenix now!
Well put.
Your comment also recalls to my mind Wells’ last statement of his opening, which, paraphrased, went something like, “The only way I lose this case is if you don’t follow the evidence according to what the judge says.” He was contrasting this course of action, if I recall aright, with a course of action whereby jurors punished Libby because of any negative feelings about Iraq.
This drew an objection from Fitz away from the jury, and a generic admonition to the jury from the judge that arguments by attorneys are not evidence.
Wells did not follow your advice here, which tends to fit with my impression of him as a tad reckless.
Cynthia says book a breakthrough book - available info, dogged citizen investigation - how received?
Jane - little intrest but christy and jane got passes to trial giving lie to meme that bloggers fact free. marcy’s live blogging, Christy’s legal experience…
introducing march and TNH business consultant - what can be more American? civic minded taught
kind of column that arose out of Napoleonic censorship - made her interested in alternate publishing such as the blogs
kathryn in MA and others–thanks for info-can’t get broadcast… but thankful for your comments!!!
S.O.S. from MA @
34
Hi S.O.S from MA
I’m using a program called Flip4Mac to listen to the stream. if you do a google searchon it this page comes up- http://www.flip4mac.com/ It lets you listen to windows media player streams
I remember that fight between meteorblades and emptywheel. Thanks for reminding us, Marcy. You were right - Judith Miller is NOT a journalist.
Cynthia - recognized propaganda in hte media?
Marcy - dispute with Meteor Blades over Judy Millers incarceration and Gov input into the media. Gov is clearly attacking journalists - trial showing that Cheney comfortable getting word out on MTP
ralps @ 64
Ya, tnx, I have flip4mac, but it didn’t kick in as it usually does with WMA stuff. Anyhow, iTunes is doing a fine job for me…
Ed*ard Teller @ 65
How was that ever even in dispute???
Cynthia - remembering build-up to the invasion and feeling that something was wrong but Cheney obscuring - this book untangles all that.
Marcy - same with Plame, WMD
cynthia - mentioning digby - echelons of bloggers marcy and fdl the tiffeney of blogs. Cynthia reading digby’s book review with Amb. Wilson’s comment
Cynthia is doing a great job on discussing the book and how great the info in the book. She is pretty hyped on the book.
Eli @ 68 — I wasn’t listening to that fight, but I’d bet that meteorblades was either a credulous liberal or a neocon…
Cynthia Black mentioning Jane’s and Markos’ publishing house - name? Baster? what does it mean?
S.O.S. from MA @ 71
He’s a Kos frontpager, so the former would be a lot more likely than the latter.
I missed that dispute, so he may have just been making an absolute case for journalistic privilege, which I think was badly misinvoked in this instance.
Meteroblades is an oustanding liberl writer and thinker. His reputation online is stellar. This was an honest debate/disagreement. He’s also an occasional commenter around here, though his home is dkos and perhaps The Next Hurrah, if I recal correctly.
PS - i never did streaming before - i got it to work by also clicking on it
Tunes and clicking I Accept on whatever legal speak
“Vaster” books, for our budding, “vaster” left wing conspiracy.
OT - CNN breaking news. 250-300 insurgents killed in massive fighting near Najaf.
Sitting here in shock at the fact CNN is actually covering this in semi real time.
(Armando “I co-founded the Civility Society with Tacitus so now he’ll be nice to me” would probably also fall into the “credulous liberal” category…)
Pachacutec @ 76
Vaster pussycat, kill kill.
Eli @
68
Well, as Scott Ritter points out in the current edition of “The Nation,” the exact same machinery Marcy wrote her book about is being trotted out on Iran right now:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070205/ritter
And our next wave of Judy Millers and Scooter Libbys are being shepherded into their new jobs of propagandizing us once again, exactly as Marcy and many others have chronicled re Iraq. And all but an isolated few of the Dem leadership are going along with it. So far.
Read Ritter’s article, which is currently the most viewed and e-mailed item at their website.
I hope the ladies bring up IRAN!
Pachacutec @
76
Excellent!!
I am in heaven girls on the radio Pach on the page all at the same time
Eli@73 — tnx for info. I, for one of many, found all that posturing “I yam a Journalist, so I must protect my source” way overdone. I’ll have to read dKos more :)
Armado’s judgment with Tacitus was incredibly flawed, in my view, but his choice, however much it mystified me, was based on his good faith conviction, from all I can gather.
Sigh.
Lindy @ 33
it works in dresden, too!
pret-ty amazing.
this ol’ luddite is just not believin’ it.
Ed*ard Teller @ 80
Even with a neverending supply of willing media whores, I just don’t see how starting another dubious war is going to be to the Republicans’ advantage.
Drumming up a war with Iran might have worked if there had been no disastrous Iraq invasion, but invading Iran is like Surge X 100, and will be about as popular.
Pachacutec @ 74
I agree, but, if I remember right, he was concerned about what ended up being non issues, whereas Marcy believed the veracity of accounts of Miller’s overall context as a person which meteorblades seemed to feel weren’t germaine.
BTW Eli, it’s good to have you hanging about again.
Pach, I have been waiting for your post & you did not disappoint. But tell me, are Fitz’s eyes as soulful in person as they are in his pics?
S.O.S. from MA @ 83
Speaking very broadly, my personal opinion is that “protecting your source” is meant to shield whistleblowers, not dirty tricksters.
Pachacutec @ 84
I just don’t understand how anyone could have a “good faith conviction” about a snake like Tacitus. I *think* there *are* some genuinely civil and principled bloggers on the right, but Tac is not one of them.
Oy. I just realized that I, too, will be only about 15% efficient tomorrow after I start reading FDL. Not that I’m complaining!
Go, FDL women!!!
OT — Newsweek has its cover story on the website: Black Hawk Down. With pictures of the 12 KIA. Note the cutline. So many of the photo captions credit National Guard.
Bush has got the US in a terrible situation. The Guard who should be protecting us here at home are bogged down with regular military in Iraq.
The choices are terrible: they’ll slaughter each other with us in the middle…or they’ll slaughter each other.
George W. Bush. Worst world ruler ever.
Marcy - saying now they are covering the trial in the Prettyman CH and Jane will be here to watch Cheney sweat. (cb laughs) marcy didn’t mean it to be a running commentary but can’t help herself. people aren’t paying alot of attention in gov. (maybe if they had been attention before….)
Jane - Marcy blogging from vast store of knowledge gives bolding, comments
Cynthia saving the count
“Sergent” also citizen jouralist getting the voice of katrina out. “unreportednews.net” says the ladies are good people