
In response to Paul Krugman's op-ed piece in the NYT on our busted health care system, Matt Stoller has a compelling post entitled "Universal Health Care Run By Psychotics," which I would retitle "Universal Health Care Run by Hoodlums." He outlines that we in fact do have a perverse sort of universal health care, in the form of outrageously expensive and inefficient emergency wards -- "it just works through pushing costs to states and localities and shunting people to emergency rooms where they die faster and their care costs more," says Matt.
I'd like to add a sidebar to that. Yes this is the only form of health care available to most Americans, but with the passage of the Bankruptcy Bill last year that left no exception for those with catastrophic medical expenses, the government became a de facto enforcer for a bunch of medical loan sharks. Now there is no relief for those who still have means, no matter how meager, to pay those debts -- nothing to help them escape working in a form of indentured servitude to their medical creditors for the rest of their lives. The whole system conspires against them -- collection agencies, credit reporting agencies and the courts stand at the ready to destroy their credit and redouble their original debts with outrageous interest and collection fees and force them into payment by seizing their assets and their wages with no regard for their medical condition or other mitigating factors in their lives.
Said Ryan Spear writing at TPM:
The infamous “millionaire’s loopholes”—which allow rich filers to hide their wealth by buying mansions or special trust funds—were carefully preserved. At the same time, the bill raises the price of filing even for the lowest income earners and eliminates a judge’s discretion to discharge debts if people go bankrupt due to medical emergencies, job loss, or divorce.
It is a system both draconian and obscene.
Matt's post is also worth reading for a rundown of the players who will conspire to kill any move toward universal health care, most notably Tom Donahue, the Chamber of Whores and the insurance industry. It's also a good recounting of the missteps made by the Clinton Administration as they tried to please everyone with HillaryCare and ended up pleasing no one.
Says Krugman:
But now is the time to warn against plans that try to cover the uninsured without taking on the fundamental sources of our health system’s inefficiency. What’s wrong with both the Massachusetts plan and Senator Wyden’s plan is that they don’t operate like Medicare; instead, they funnel the money through private insurance companies.
Everyone knows why: would-be reformers are trying to avoid too strong a backlash from the insurance industry and other players who profit from our current system’s irrationality.
But look at what happened to Bill Clinton. He rejected a single-payer approach, even though he understood its merits, in favor of a complex plan that was supposed to co-opt private insurance companies by giving them a largely gratuitous role. And the reward for this “pragmatism” was that insurance companies went all-out against his plan anyway, with the notorious “Harry and Louise” ads that, yes, mocked the plan’s complexity.
Now we have another chance for fundamental health care reform. Let’s not blow that chance with a pre-emptive surrender to the special interests.
He's right. Appeasement only sowed the seeds that the lobbyists used to destroy universal health care in the first place. Let's not make the same mistake twice.
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
Fitz! and a quibble about a spelling in the last graf:
Appeasement only sewed the seeds. Should be sowed the seeds, as in, well, sowing seeds.
Just in case people want to spotlight…
Is a health care plan too much to ask the Congress to start thinking about? It won’t get done until we have 1600 too, but maybe some thought now…
Thanks, Marion. Much appreciated.
blocking single payer health care to protect the health insurance industry is like blocking the first cars to protect the horseshoing industry or the buggy wheel makers.
if the insurance industry worked to the administrative standards of many of the state operated medical programs or medicare, they might be able to find work processing claims.
WOW.
the lending insustry was not struggling, they were not in danger of too many defaults and there was no reason what so ever the bankruptcy bill was even considered
if I am a mechanic I have to buy my own tools, pay my own rent, pay my heating bill…that’s the cost of doing bussiness
one of the costs of doing bussiness as a lender is dafault loans, it’s part of their rent and there is NO reason we are paying their rent for them
I don’t like when we insinuate the bankruptcy bill would have been fine if we had a few disclaimers like catastrophic health considerations
there is no reason for any disclaimer since there is no reason to take bannkruptcy protection away from the consumer
sorry, this was a marketing scam and it worked even on progressives, bankruptcy protection is part of the rent they need to pay and I want them to start paying their bills again
we need to rescind that bankruptcy bill, it was nothing but free money to the wealthy
Matt Stoller’s right, of course. The insanity of this system can be summed up in one little observation: Our health care system is far more expensive than the Canadian system (or that of any other modern country’s), covers far fewer people as a percentage of the total population, and despite having a worse climate Canadians have a longer life expectancy.
Our healthcare system is a disgrace, but thereis a fundamental problem that we all overlook: we have a limited resource with essentially infinite demand. Until we can contrive a rational and compassionate means of allocating the resource any system will fail.
Australia has a two level system - a single payer public system and and a parallel private one. The private system works well because demand is restricted by wealth, but the public system is in freefall with obscene waiting lists and poorly trained doctors. The problem is resources. This is a small country (20 million population) and it can not tax itself enough to pay for first rate care for everybody.
I think the US has the same problem, made worse by the corporate welfare supplied to insurance companies and big Pharma.
It will take, I fear, more political will and imagination than our government is capable of.
As a “beneficiary” of our corrupt medical system, I applaud you and Matt’s attention to the problem. We aren’t just victims of crappy medical care; the cost of providing health insurance to employees seriously impacts (see: killing) our job market as well.
Kucinich has an excellent single-payer plan. Damn shame he has no shot in hell of winning the nomination.
PS: Jane, who are you rooting for in the Rose Bowl?
am i wrong or did barak obama vote for this bankruptcy bill? i seem to remember him voting FOR it, shortly after taking office.
should be a deal killer for his presidential bids, from where i stand.
good article, jane. nice gotti metaphor, as well.
I live in Canada, as many of you know. We have a pretty fine health care system here and according to the WHO, our govt spends less per capita on our health care than does the US govt. So your govt spends more, and then you spend more on top of that, both in fees and in insurance premiums. This is very serious crap.
I feel a story coming on. Mr HotFlash grew up in a family grocery store. When his parents came to thinking of retirement in the 80’s he helped out a bit getting the store spruced up for sale and noticed that much had changed. For instance, there was the WIC program, which heavily subsidizes food for Women, Infants and Children, regardless of income. What he noticed is that within a couple of years of the program’s inception, prices for infant formula powder, eligible ‘healthy’ foods and juices had increased dramatically. So, people who had never needed subsidies now were using the program because a tin of Similac or whatever that had been .69 was now 2.29. People who chose not to use the program for whatever reason were paying grossly inflated prices for stuff that’s really pretty necessary, if you have kids.
So, a program to help women, infants and children became the conduit for tax dollars to flow into corporations. If the price is too high, the market won’t/can’t adjust since it is the gov’t that is paying and they don’t give a damn about the cost. Oh, and of course, no oversight is supposed to be required since the ‘free market’ is regulated by buyer choice, right? And as a bonus it will continue to drain the ‘upright’ middle class types who won’t take ‘welfare’. Perfect!
This is the model we are seeing everywhere, the conversion of tax $ to corporate coffers through lobbyist-designed government programs. If this model is used for the health care system you’ll see the same result. Rich HMO’s, drug companies and insurance companies, poorly paid staff, and minimal medical care — unless you’re rich.
Since Ms. Redshift has a chronic illness, I have long since come to the conclusion that all health insurance companies are evil. Some are more or less evil than others, but they are all evil.
Our healthcare system is a disgrace, but there is a fundamental problem that we all overlook: we have a limited resource with essentially infinite demand. Until we can contrive a rational and compassionate means of allocating the resource any system will fail.
The demand, which is not at all infinite, can be lowered by preventive care and better education.
One reason people go to emergency rooms for primary care is that they don’t have or can’t afford a family-type doctor; even if they have insurance, the plan they have might not cover the doctor they want to go to (I’ve had insurance tell me I can’t go to the doctor I’ve used for years, because it’s more than n miles from where I live. Is that any of their business?).
Several insurance companies are in legal trouble in California for approving (sometimes expensive) treatment for people, then a few weeks or months later cancelling the coverage completely, using some kind of excuse that’s pretty clearly invented, generally that the victim make a mistake on one of the forms or didn’t disclose a pre-existing condition (which actually might not have existed at the time).
Bravo. As an American-Canadian I can say that there are several things that keep me here in Canada and the health care system is not the least important of them. Just go for it: single-payer universal health care. It works. If you want some competitive aspect allow the providers to be a mix of private and public services of various types. Canadians spend about 25% less as a percentage of GDP on health care within a universal public system that even includes prescription drugs for everyone over 65 (with no donut hole).
Our healthcare system is backwards. It makes its profit by what it doesn’t do not by what it does. Most every other industry makes its profit by volume.
They blame the rising cost on the uninsured. Okay then, where’s the accounting of this? I work in an industry that it’s required to pay the interest earned from escrow accounts to the State. We have to keep very detailed records. Why doesn’t the medical industry have to track their overcharges against their underinsured?
Because it’s a scam!
Sorry for missing the 5 minute mark; here is Kucinich’s stand on Universal Single-payer healthcare for all:
Things are bad in health care; more so than most people are aware and/or care to admit. But, when there are successes it is important to point them out. My second son has been diagnosed with a form of autism spectrum disorder called Asperger Syndrome.
Today, A-CHAMP sent out this informational announcement:
I wish my state of Minnesota was as progressive as New York, but every success deserves recognition.
Yeah!
That’s quite an accurate description of the devolving spiral into the emergency rooms where the wrong patients are being seen by the wrong doctors. Part of my private practice is hospital based and I end up writing off a lot of billing for people who have nothing. The majority of the time, I work with my billing agent to not send claims to collections agencies because it just makes their already difficult lives that much more troublesome. It’s a great feeling though when a patient with nothing somehow makes $5 payments per month out of appreciation for the care they received.
It’s not the homeless or destitute people that stand out to me so much as the people with families and jobs with no insurance who have no recourse but to show up on the doorstep of an ER.
Jacqrat @
16
Very fertile piece, deserving of the SPOTLIGHT PROJECT.
Americans for a long time have understood and
supported the idea of shared public education,
police and fire services. Americans also long
ago-about a century-concluded that all benefit
from improved public roads and all should be
in on the support for them. And so it is today
we have publicly supported road programs in all
fifty states. Medical care,insurance and health
services however seem perversely held out and
away from this generally accepted American way
of shared public expense for shared good. It is
simply not true Americans don’t “get” the idea.
The problem is vested,entrenched and highly
gamed interests do not and will not let go of
current American hodgepodge health insurance
and care. WashDC is at the middle of this and
until that rat’s nest is cleaned out it is not
likely American healthcare will move out of its
moribund and hopelessly dysfunctional current
state. Money power and profiteering is at root
of this. And money power runs WashDC.Good Luck.
Don’t get me started. We have the most fucked-up, obscene (you nailed it there, Jane), cruel, stupid, inhumane setup in the entire goddamn world. There is no excuse for the state of things in this country. Every one of us should be ashamed to death. I don’t CARE if 10 million people in the insurance industry lose their jobs when we finally convert to universal health care. AT LEAST THEY’LL BE ABLE TO GO TO THE DOCTOR WHEN THEY’RE SICK!!!
Me? 61 years old and self-employed. Of course I have no health insurance. How could I possibly? It’s all so heartless and insane.
OT, from Reuters. The headline says it all: “Iraq govt to probe filming of Saddam hanging”.
Not the hanging itself, mind you, but the filming of it. We aren’t bringing Democracy to the Iraqis. We’re bringing them George W Bush’s perverted version of it. This is exactly the kind of stunt he would pull.
One of the few good things to come out of this whole botched execution is that we now know who’s in charge in Iraq: Moqtada al Sadr. He wanted Saddam dead, and he got it. The executioners even chanted his name to Saddam at the gallows. So we’ve replaced a brutal Sunni dictator with a radical Shiite cleric. Was this really worth 3,000 American lives?
Cujo359 @ 8
This is so simple to understand. If this point were packaged and promoted on Fox News, the country would be in an uproar asking why this self-described greatest country in the world is the only one on the block without universal health care for its citizens.
Petedownunder, I want to take a brief issue with you. If there is no way that the govt of Oz can fund a non-profit healthcare system with a pool of 100% of the residents, how can a private, for-profit insurers be expected to do it for less?
Here in Canada we are having serious problems with our medical care, but now that I have learned what to look for I think a lot of it is buncombe.
Our hospitals here in Ontario were “streamlined” by a Conservative premier by the name of Mike Harris as part of his Common Sense Revolution. Systems were put in place which, my nurse and hosp admin friends tell me, created more confusion, worse service and less efficiency. Not that the system had been perfect before, but the revamping institutionalized some serious inefficiencies, jurisdictional vendettas and admin structures guaranteed to prevent feedback and paralyze staff initative. Many hospitals were closed, some are still standng but were sold to private corporations, which was previously illegal. Oh, the blueprint for this, also the regional government amalgamations and school standardizations, seems to have come from the friendly folks at Fraser Institute. SourceWatch has some interesting info on them here, esp their funding.
Now, five years down the road, the changes his govt made are doing their work. We are hearing more and more about waiting lists and delivery shortfalls, rarely does a week go by without some media coverage of the ‘health care crisis’ and the plea for scrapping our health care system. We are being set up for US-style healthcare. Already about 1/3 of our health care services are provided by private suppliers, ‘contractors’ if you will. Their staff is rarely union but the contractor gets the same flat rate for the service that a govt-owned hosp would. Where do you suppose the difference is going?
Umm, just a reminder of a couple of things in this business.
First, single-payer systems work in other countries because they don’t have either the levels of total debt and defense spending that we do. Total debt is important, because it determines how much of the budget is eaten up in interest payments each year (now over $350 billion per year, about one-third of the discretionary budget). Defense spending levels are the major determiner of income tax rates, and without a drop in income taxes proportional to any increase in payroll taxes to pay for a single-payer system, effective taxation of the middle-class and the poor goes up.
Second, it’s fashionable for the right to whine about returning taxation levels to just 1999 levels as a “tax increase.” That’s an easy way for them to blunt any talk about returning the system to anything resembling truly progressive taxation, because the average American is so poorly informed about the tax system as a whole. But, without a return to a progressive taxation system, a single-payer system can only accrue more debt–a self-defeating plan, because of interest accrual.
Third, corporations are not lobbying for such plans. Why? Because they want to be relieved of health costs entirely. Every one of the domestic auto manufacturers have been whining about how much health care is eating into profitability, but not one has visibly and publicly lobbied for a system which would put them on a level playing field with foreign manufacturers, because they don’t want to be burdened by the additional marginal increase in the employers’ share of payroll taxes. That amount comes off the top and can’t be manipulated through loopholes and or preferential legislation.
So, to recap: for a single-payer system to work, we have to significantly reduce defense spending, pay off some debt to reduce interest accumulation, raise taxes on the wealthy and on corporations.
All those things are possible, and have other political advantages, as well. But, without them, any effective single-payer system is going to result in more debt.
The issue of the insurers is a matter of political will. My own feeling is that for any effective single-payer system to work, the insurers will have to be cut out of the system–if only because they are one of the principal sources of inefficiency in the system. They could continue to operate as health insurers, but on a smaller basis, by catering to the very wealthy in society.
Frank Probst @ 22
Stomach-turning analysis on the rush to hang Saddam:
http://www.rawstory.com/showou.....Itemid=135
What role would rationing health care in a universal system have ? Is it necessary? Interestingly, it seems that the kinds of services that are rationed by insurance are not the ones that make up the lion’s share of national health care costs. An enormous percentage of costs are spent on people in their last days or weeks of life.
mandrake @ 23
It’s also fairly easy to document, I think. The WHO study provides justification for the cost figures. Two years ago the AMA did a study on how many people had inadequate or no health insurance. There were roughly 40 million in each category, so something like a quarter of the population has inadequate access to health care. The life expectancy information I got from the CIA Worldbook site. Funny that no one in the news is that curious, eh?
Whoa - i’ve seen this picture before at digby’s post on The Aristocrats = http://digbysblog.blogspot.com.....5080957566
but check out Bush’s footwear!
As much as I like to bash the insurance industry, we need to keep in mind that they do not exist to help the poor or heal the sick. Insurance companies are businesses, not charities. Their purpose it to make money. They do so by spreading the costs of low-probability situations over a large group of people. In the case of health insurance, they make money by covering people who are healthy and unlikely to face a catastrophic illness in the near future. (And they usually skimp on this, since most of their customers will never notice.) They have no interest in the poor (who can’t pay them to begin with) or in people who are already sick. They ignore the sick and the poor for the same reason the oil industry ignores the environment: It hurts their bottom line.
double click on the photo in digby’s post
While I was in the hospital for two days for shoulder surgery last week, I had a good chance to observe a brand new “regional medical center.” The community hospital where our kids were born, where I’ve brought them in for stitches, cat bites, knee surgery, concussions and so on, has been replaced by a new, huge building. And a huge administrative overlay that seems unduly top heavy.
While there, I didn’t have to worry about how all this will be paid for - I’m triple covered. But I was frustrated about how the bureaucrats seemed to insinuate themselves into the nursing wards during the daytime shift, keeping the nursing staff from their patients. On one of my walks in my new, inflatable cast, hauling my IV tree around the corriders, I was asked to fill out a questionaire on the artwork on the walls. On another, I was asked questions about the quality of food. I hadn’t eaten anything, so I was frowned back to my room, where I withstood pressures to eat from a menu which horrified me.
During the night, the nurses were free to do their jobs, and the place seemed to function far more comfortably.
Muzzy @
18
I can say from experience that many compassionate doctors do the same thing. Others are not so forgiving, and things get worse when people take out bad loans or put payments on credit cards in order to keep treading water financially.
I’ve got insurance that would be cancelled in a heartbeat if they thought they could due to my cancer history. I was doing my financial planning for the upcoming year and know I’ll be facing (conservatively) $20,000 in medical expenses, and that is certainly not the first time it has happened. I don’t think there are many people in this country who can write a check like that comfortably and know that they might have to do the same thing again next year. The added stress it places on your recovery is horrible, at a time you can least afford to deal with it.
It is, quite frankly, just awful.
Muzzy @ 27
Rationing health care is not necessary or beneficial. Yes, there will be some abuses, but here not all procedures are covered. For instance, reduction mammoplasty is covered, augmentation is not. Other than that, it is difficult to see that someone will soak up more medical services than they need. There is a myth of the little old lady going from Dr to Dr, but seriously, don’t you think that more unnecessary procedures are advocated by Drs, hospitals and drug companies than by patients? Who is more likely to plump for an unnecessary brain surgery, the patient or the surgeon? Cui bono.
Frank Probst @ 30
And Frank, it doesn’t hurt to notice that the ins co’s will do better if they can cherry-pick their risk pools. Sick? Old? Poor? They don’t want you.
I spend a lot of time in France and the health system there is beyond criticism. It is a single payer system and it works great. The French enjoy better care than we(one measure being infant mortality but there are others)and pay a whole lot less. Most of our costs are eaten by administrative overhead and do not directly go to providing medical care. If I remember the numbers correctly the U.S. ranks 18th in the quality of our healthcare worldwide and we pay the most per capita of anyone else in the world. Needs fixing in the worst way and sorry but the insurance leeches just need to suck it up.
Muzzy @ 27
That last statement always bothers me, because it implies that we’re wasting a bunch of money on futile care. I don’t think that’s often the case. Think about it: People often die because something really bad happens to them. A bad car accident, an aggressive tumor, a major heart attack, etc. The only way to save someone’s life after something like this is with aggressive–and expensive–health care. If you break 15 bones, puncture a lung, and rupture your spleen in a car crash, it’s going to cost a lot of money to get you back to health. You might die anyway, even with the most aggressive care. That doesn’t mean the money was wasted. It just means that an expensive effort went into trying to save you.
In addition, being in a hospital is expensive all by itself. Still, it’s not always a bad place to die, even if death is inevitable. If you have an untreatable and extremely painful tumor, you’re probably going to want some heavy pain-killers in your last days. It’s not a waste of money to keep someone comfortable at the end of life.
Cujo359 @ 8
Right on!
Petedownunder - in some ways your statement seems to exemplify OUR legal system - 2 tiers, and very different results.
Jane Hamsher @ 33
Jane,
That IS just awful. I pay nearly as much for a family of five (with one special medical circumstance in regard to Asperger syndrome); but, even so I don’t have to shell out that much. As a single individual (woman, under 55 ), surely that is usury insurance expense in any state in the union. Is that solely from your experience with cancer or do you live in a particularly bad state for health care considerations?
Either way, I’m so sorry.
Richmond @ 38
As a lawyer I have to agree, both the US and Oz legal systems provide as much justice as you can afford. I have not been here long enough to fully appreciate what, if any, legal services are available to the poor, but I am confident you are far better off with heaps of money if you need a lawyer either place.
Frank Probst @ 38
The hospital is a horrendous place to die; you can get super pain killers at home through hospice (Excellent group), but we had to fight off the hospitals/doctors to get them to release my parents to die at home in peace (consequence of a drug mixup caused stroke in one case, terminal cancer in the other).
Also, I am sick of doctors pushing pills on me.
Ed*ard Teller @ 32
I’ve always liked working the night shift for exactly this reason. I worked in one hospital whose bright idea for improving care was putting a big-screen television in every room.
Sorry if this is out of place. PBS just profiled these folks who lost their son in Iraq
Families of the Fallen for Change
Richmond @ 41
I agree that home hospice is superior to hospitals, but hospice also costs money, so if you’re not covered, you’re not going to get it. The hospital is better than nothing at all.
Frank - as I remember, Hospice care for my parents was free. They largely volunteers and were amazing, and we made several donations to the group - which I think is national.
mandrake @
27
I think there might be some misunderstanding on part of this. A Riverbend post explained it better than I can. Is this the same as posted at C Floyd’s link?
Disgraced former UnitedHealth Group CEO William McGuire received $125 million in 2005. Where did that money come from? The health insurance premiums you and I and our employers pay.
Seems like it should be easy to put info like that into a hard-hitting message or two that would completely disgrace the for-profit health system we have in this country.
Many parallels between health care debate and electricity market debate over the last 15 years. In electricity,
“single payer” = power pool with spot market that buys at least cost for everyone
insurance coverage = bilateral contracts with individual competitive retailers (in states with retail choice)
In the early debates, the Enrons of the world argued that the power pool with organized least cost spot market was the equivalent of socialization/communism, but requiring all electricity customers to choose a competitive retailer (other than your local utility) and sign a bilateral contract with that retailer was the market’s way of being more efficient. The argument was nonsense, but it won in California in 1996, but not in the East. There was a recognition that reliability required a very limited “pool” in California, but the “market rules” were deliberately written to force the common pool to be inefficient; the pool in California was literally prohibited from serving customers at the lowers cost, so that the Enron’s would have a larger margin to compete under. That’s equivalent to the drug industry convincing Congress that the Medicare Drug Plan should not negotiate with drug companies for lower drug prices.
Belief in the “market efficiency” paradigm, based on the assumption that unregulated companies will compete to bring the lowest price and best service, is very strong is the US, even in industries where that paradigm does not work well, and it makes it difficult to convince regulators (who approve “market rules”) to accept rules that actually lower costs to consumers. It is a constant battle, and most consumers, especially the largest customers (industry/large commercial) are the most easily misled, which means political support for reforms is extemely difficult to get.
Two major MAJOR costs of health care are 1. the insurance company intermediaries (HUGE) and a super expensive and disfunctional pharmaceutical industry. Most of the new drugs put on the market now are merely “tweeked” versions of older well established drugs so that they can make more profits. Taken together many of the drugs cause more problems than benefits (witness the estrogen), have terrible - and deadly - side effects (anti-psychotics), or are effective for only a brief period (Prozac, Erectile Disfunction drugs).
Don’t you think there is enough money in health care now to cover everyone? Take private insurance out of health care. Why should they and their investors make money off of the sacred work of healing? To me and other old timers in the health field, there is something unseemly about seeing it as just another business. It is analogous to third party investors making money from religion. We work in the health field because it is a calling. It’s heartbreaking to see what should be available to everyone denied to so many.
We’re the only nation that has this bizarre, cobbled-together mix of employer-sponsored PPOs, HMOs, Medi-Care, local tax and cash-supported health care. And no, it’s not working.
But it doesn’t matter how much better universal single-payer would be, for the very reasons Jane pointed out. (Though if GM, Wal*Mart, McDonalds come around, it may happen.)
Until then, why not have universal, single payer coverage for catastrophic care? You’d keep your current plan for the basic stuff, but if your bills totaled more than, say, $100,000 over 12 months, your insurer would forward the bill to the government for payment. You’d still see the same doctors, get treated in your local hospital, but Uncle Sam would pay the bill.
Insurance companies would love to be off the hook when a baby is born prematurely, or a car accident leaves a young woman paralyzed, or a lifelong smoker develops emphysema. And rates would drop to the point that just about every employer could offer health care.
Frank Probst @ 30
I am not sure what to make of health insurers here in Canada. There are still plenty of them, and most co’s offer health ins to their employees. It will cover stuff that OHIP doesn’t, like prescriptions and eyeglasses and dental and chiropractic (used to be covered under OHIP, axed by Mike Harris), or wage-replacement for long or short-term disability. Our Employment insurance will cover if you are off sick, but it’s not at an exec or professional level.
And there is life insurance, of course. So why did Confederation Life go belly-up? Poor invesments in real estate, so I’m told. I duno. And another thing I don’t get is why Cdn auto insurance rates are as high or higher than US, when we don’t have medical exps to recover and we don’t have big law suits. But that’s a question for another blog…
Back to your comment, though. In fact, many health insurers are, or at least were, non-profit or mutual benefit societies. This is what humans do, we for societies so that we all can live better. OK, we can rape, pillage, burn and oppress, too, but still.
I read this eye-opening and illuminating article by poputonian on the Indiana Blue Cross Blue Shield piracy over at digby’s place. People, we are under attack.
Frank - I drew the comparison more a way to highlight what is limited by insurance as opposed to what is not as a function of overall healthcare costs. Regarding end of life decisions, there is quite a range of situations but I agree with what you say.
Another angle of the question about rationing care (be it preventative or end of life care) relates to what impact, if any, would it have on advances in medical research and innovation ? I’m guessing not much but I don’t really know.
Regarding physicians promoting unecessary tests and procedures, that is a multifaceted question, the answers to which depend in some degree on perspective. Yes it happens, sometimes willfully for profit, sometimes out of defensive tendencies, and sometimes justifiably draped with understandable suspicion.
Oregon has a law where no one can be deprived health insurance regardless of any pre-existing condition (Oregon Medical Insurance Pool) which great, but only if you can afford the elevated premiums. Incidentally, I fell into this category because I was misdiagnosed with having a hernia by a stand-in doc just before my move to Oregon.
Also, today in Oregon, a new law takes effect that mandates insurance to observe parity for mental health care. People with routine mental health needs as well as the chronically mentally ill especially get caught out of the loop - even when they have medical coverage. The ERs in Portland are swamped with patients in need of mental health care. The ER docs have been pounding the panic button for awhile now.
puppethead @ 47
puppethead, you’ve hit dead on my hot button. That kind of compensation in ANY industry is insane — for the medical industry, it truly is evil. I don’t know how those people sleep at night, but it is situations like that which make me want to believe in a concept of hell, just to hope that there is a specific level for usurers!
While I support the idea of a single-payer system, that does not rule out a role for insurance providers.
In most markets, there are different producers/suppliers of a commodity/product/service and there are consumers of them. But there are also entities that manage risks faced by both suppliers and consumers. Insurance companies can/do play a role in many industries, in managing and allocating risks to those who can bear the risks beter. That’s the theory.
What we’ve apparently done in the US, however, is to assume that the health care system should be designed to accommodate the risk management industry, and that’s backwards. We need to design a least cost/best care system, and then the risk managers will sort out how to perform their allocation function; but they shouldn’t dictate how care is provided or ultimately paid for.
petedownunder @ 40
Legal Aid is available to the poor although the Howard Government has cut funding so less people are eligibile for help than before.
As for our healthcare system I have to dispute your claim that our public health system is in freefall. Poorly trained doctors? Really? Where?
There are long waiting lists for non-urgent procedures. One of the difficulties is a shortage of medical staff, particularly nurses. I know here in WA there have been large advertising campaigns aimed at luring nurses back into the profession.
Now it’s storytime: An English friend on holidays here decided to learn to skydive. Long story short - he ended up in the spinal unit of our largest public hospital. Fortunately, he had damaged vertebrae but not his spinal cord. He spent a week in intensive care and a further 5 weeks recuperating. He received excellent care and at the end, because our government has reciprocal arrangements with the UK for health care, it cost him $67.50 for the ambulance ride.
Evenin’ Doggies,
Jane -
have you seen Ezra’s big splash (Healthcare) in LAT ? aah, teh wonkness
(courtesy kung fu monkey)
http://www.latimes.com/news/op.....-rightrail
puppethead @
48
And the guy who raped Blue Cross Blue Shield got away with 42.5 million. I read that article a day after two folks on the Lake said they opened their ins bills to find their premiums had gone up by 30%.
If wolves eat rabid lambs, does it kill the wolves?
Frank Probst @
31
This is exactly why there should be no insurance company involvement with providing health care. Health care should be a public service.
Do we have police insurance? Firefighter insurance?
To promote the general welfare:
Public utilities
Public fire and police protection
Public education
Public health care
These are things all people need and most people cannot afford on their own. It makes sense to provide them collectively for our mutual good and to establish secure, stable, good-paying employment for our country by making these civil service, union-represented jobs — including keepin the support work like medical records production and storage, medical device production, et cetera, here in the US.
My problem with the insurance piece of this is its expensive dual adversary role - it costs not only the Drs & hospitals in time consuming & expensive paperwork, etc - but also us consumers. For both, the insurers’ interest is in stripping money from each side to fill their own pockets.
On big pharma - at a minimum we need to disallow the huge advertising budget -for TV, journals & doctors.
Do we have police insurance? Firefighter insurance?
Yes, we do. We buy insurance to cover losses from theft and from injuries from attacks. And police (and tax payers) buy insurance to cover the costs of injury risks they take. We buy fire insurance. In insurance company spreads to the costs and allocates the risks. But that does not mean that we should design police or fire departments to benefit primarily insurance companies, which I think is what you are getting at.
Re: “On big pharma - at a minimum we need to disallow the huge advertising budget -for TV, journals & doctors.” triple amen. Don’t get me started.
LindaR at 60:
AMEN!
Jane, like Truth (leftmost figure), you stand alone speaking out against the emotionally bereft.
Rancor, suspicion and slander vs. beauty, wisdom and acumen.
We, your observers see that beauty — unclothed in its rapture of delight yet too far removed from the brutish and malevolent tirade of power. (Rightmost figure who speaks not nor sees with eyes cast downward.)
That said, your light travels through the ages and can be seen by all who choose to look at the one thing that compels the mind to act — fervent desire and unconscious prayer spoken to hearts and open minds but not heard by the pitiless and empty souls drained of courage who’ve whored themselves to the crushing phalanx of human frailties.
Certainty escapes the grasp of viewpoints both here and to come although no uncertainty surrounds your triumph. (And ours as your interlocutors share and disseminate this to great effect.) As your light propagates outward through our common connections this life and being entangles and binds minds together.
As six degrees melts to zero, we taste your fire and savor the pain of that sacrifice.
In Canada, a six pack of domestic beer costs $12.00 in a beer store. The same six pack is $7 duty free at the airport. In the US a six pack of domestic beer is $6. Most American rednecks are willing to pay more for beer and cigarettes if they are getting health care.
Even so, the health care issue will never be addressed with republicans in charge. The republicans always pander to big business, insurance companies and special interests. Friends don’t let friends vote republican.
Obama, Biden (and Hillary too I think, CMIIW) voted for the bankruptcy bill (against the people and for big business). They are often as good as republicans.
Great discussion, folks!
Jim in LA @ 11
S. 256 As Amended, the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 was passed in the Senate on March 10, 2005 by a vote of 74-25. Obama voted against it. Hillary Clinton was the sole Senator not voting.
http://www.senate.gov/legislat.....vote=00044
Democrats who voted for this bill are listed below. I include Jeffords because he caucuses with the Democrats.
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Byrd (D-WV)
Carper (D-DE)
Conrad (D-ND)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kohl (D-WI)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reid (D-NV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Sorry, I was wrong about Obama on the bankruptcy bill. My senator Bill Nelson voted for it. Thanks for the scoop, Hugh. Its a disgrace that those democrats voted for it.
Good 4 Obama!
APB—All Pups Bulletin
Will be away visiting my daughter in the Dominican Republic til the 5th. Access to internet: unknown. Will try to be brave. Carry on.
thank you, hugh. i stand corrected.
egregious @ 71
Love, love, LOVE to you, egy. Take good care and have a blast visiting your daughter!
BIGHUG
egregious @
71
Safe trip & have fun!
Persiflage @ 56
Queensland Health is in serious trouble, and goes from crisis to crisis. I’m glad things are better out west, but here things are really bad. Long waiting lists even for relatively urgent procedures, huge problems recruiting doctors, bizarre admin issues and cover-ups.
I have too had good luck with the local health care system, using the private part as I’m not eligible for the public, but every day the press is full of horror stories about the public part.
Be careful what you wish for. Universal health care is going to come because the mega-corps want to dump health care costs onto the taxpayer. It will be a scam like the drug benefit,with the tax dollars passed thru insurance companies who will suck off 20-25% fees. Medicare needs to be expanded to cover everyone, but it ain’t going to happen.
egregious @ 71
Will that be a sunlight gain, I hope?
Have fun and be well. Being brave might be a tad overrated unless you’re referring to the DHS stripsearches at the airports.
rumi @ 77
Hey I travel to Russia. Am all over the airport hypersecurity thingie.
But I meant being brave to be away from the lake for 4 days.
petedownunder @ 74
I know that there are real problems with Qld Health yet my 81 year old mother-in-law, who lives in Brisbane, has nothing but praise for the public system there. Maybe she’s just going to the right hospitals. Brisbane’s a one newspaper town, isn’t it? We only have one paper and, when it’s on an anti-government crusade, you’d think we were living in the Third World. Which reminds me, I should renew my Crikey subscription. If I do it soon I get a free t-shirt with a picture of Glenn Milne attacking Stephen Mayne at the Walkleys. A must-have addition to any wardrobe.