(Today we'll be discussing "Whistling Past Dixie" by Tom Schaller, who will be joining us in the comments-- JH)
It seems as if I've been thinking about southern politics all of my life. The truth is that since the founding, everyone who has ever been involved in American politics has thought about it their whole lives. The struggle over politics and culture and regional pride in the south is America's story --- it is us and we are it, no matter where we live.
The day after the 2004 election we all looked at the electoral map and knew that we were now dealing with a rock solid Republican south. The realignment that had been in the works since the 1960's was complete. (In fact it was almost exactly the same electoral map of 1860, with the parties reversed.) The south has pretty much voted as a bloc from the very beginning. And it is also a fact that the south is the most conservative region in the country, always has been. (Even FDR had to agree to keep civil rights off the menu --- and once the crisis of the depression passed, the Dixiecrats immediately got restless. That coalition forged in the depression was always on a collision course with itself.)
In his book "Whistling Past Dixie" Tom Schaller gathers all the data to prove what those maps imply --- the south is conservative in ways that the Democrats cannot crack without offending its other constituents or losing its progressive identity, which is exactly what's been happening since 1992 when Clinton made a last charge through Dixie and barely managed to get 43% of the national popular vote. In this article by Schaller in The Democratic Strategist, you can see that the statistics tell the story. By all measures of gender,age, religion, family/marital status, occupation and socioeconomic status, the demographics strongly favor conservative Republicanism in the south for the foreseeable future.
And more strikingly, it's quite clear that as much as attitudes about race are losing their salience in the rest of the country, it remains a strong predictor of voting Republican in the south. From Rick Perlstein's article called "The unspoken truth about the GOP. Southern Discomfort" in The New Republic:
The very heart of his argument is a taboo notion: that the South votes Republican because the Republicans have perfected their appeal to Southern racism, and that Democrats simply can't (and shouldn't) compete.But, among scholars, this is hardly news. Schaller builds this conclusion on one of the most impressive papers in recent political science, "Old Times There Are Not Forgotten: Race and Partisan Realignment in the Contemporary South," by Nicholas Valentino and David Sears. Running regressions on a massive data set of ideological opinions, Sears and Valentino demonstrate with precision that, for example, a white Southern man who calls himself a "conservative," controlling for racial attitudes, is no less likely to chance a vote for a Democratic presidential candidate than a Northerner who calls himself a conservative. Likewise, a pro-life or hawkish Southern white man is no less likely--again controlling for racial attitudes--than a pro-life or hawkish Northerner to vote for the Democrat. But, on the other hand, when the relevant identifier is anti-black answers to survey questions (such as whether one agrees "If blacks would only try harder, they could be just as well off as whites," or choosing whether blacks are "lazy" or "hardworking"), an untoward result jumps out: white Southerners are twice as likely than white Northerners to refuse to vote for the Democratic presidential candidate. Schaller's writes: "Despite the best efforts of Republican spinmeisters ... the partisan impact of racial attitudes in the South is stronger today than in the past."
I read the paper Perlstein mentions and this is not a misrepresentation. It shocked the hell out of me.
Now, before everyone gets upset and thinks that we are saying all southerners are racists: the data does not say that. But when it comes to conservative white southerners, I'm sorry to say that the evidence is clear. When all is said and done, the thing that separates them from the rest of the nation is racism. All the racial codes, the slick misdirection, even the appeals to homophobia and religion are in some sense directed at this one simple characteristic. And that characteristic is the thing that trumps all the other concerns about economic justice that Democrats persist in believing they can use to persuade white southern males to vote for them. Democrats simply cannot thread that needle.
Schaller does not "write off the south" as so many assume. Indeed, he explicitly endorses Howard Dean's 50 state strategy to build for the future and ensure that Democrats are prepared to step in where opportunities present themselves. What he is saying is it is impossible for Democrats to currently win nationally by trying to appeal to the southern conservative majority, which seems to me to be an obvious point. You can't be all things to all people.
Yet we have seen for decades now a concerted effort to persuade the Dems that they must appeal to NASCAR dads and "the heartland" and "evangelicals" and all the other cultural signifiers that relate closely to the conservative south. But that's not where the votes for us are and the more we try to get them, the less appealing we are to everyone else. As Schaller persuasively shows, there are plenty of votes to be had among blue collar workers in the upper mid-west and among the less traditionalist and religious types in the west and southwest. These appeals offer the possibility of emphasizing areas on which we agree instead of compromising on fundamental issues on which we never can. Schaller's "diamond demography" chapter shows exactly where the Dems stand the most to gain.
The fact is that it is the Republicans who have backed themselves into a corner. By allowing their southern wingnuts to dominate they have marginalized themselves and are losing their appeal to the country as a whole.
Here's Harold Myerson in the Washington Post:
You've seen the numbers and understand that America is growing steadily less white. You try to push your party, the Grand Old Party, ahead of this curve by taking a tolerant stance on immigration and making common cause with some black churches. Then you go and blow it all in a desperate attempt to turn out your base by demonizing immigrants and running racist ads against Harold Ford. On Election Day, black support for Democrats remains high; Hispanic support for Democrats surges. So what do you do next?What else? Elect Trent Lott your deputy leader in the Senate. Sure locks in the support of any stray voters who went for Strom in '48.
In case you haven't noticed, a fundamental axiom of modern American politics has been altered in recent weeks. For four decades, it's been the Democrats who've had a Southern problem. Couldn't get any votes for their presidential candidates there; couldn't elect any senators, then any House members, then any dogcatchers. They still can't, but the Southern problem, it turns out, is really the Republicans'. They've become too Southern -- too suffused with the knee-jerk militaristic, anti-scientific, dogmatically religious, and culturally, sexually and racially phobic attitudes of Dixie -- to win friends and influence elections outside the South. Worse yet, they became more Southern still on Election Day last month, when the Democrats decimated the GOP in the North and West. Twenty-seven of the Democrats' 30 House pickups came outside the South.
The Democrats won control of five state legislatures, all outside the South, and took more than 300 state legislative seats away from Republicans, 93 percent of them outside the South...
The one strategist who fundamentally predicted the new geography of partisan American politics is Tom Schaller, a University of Maryland political scientist whose book "Whistling Past Dixie: How Democrats Can Win Without the South" appeared several months before November's elections. Schaller argued that the Democrats' growth would occur in the Northeast, the industrial Midwest, the Mountain West and the Southwest -- areas where professionals, appalled by Republican Bible Beltery, were trending Democratic and where working-class whites voted their pocketbooks in a way that their Southern counterparts did not. Al Gore carried white voters outside the South, Schaller reminded us; even hapless John Kerry came close.
I would suggest that there are a couple of other reasons why Schaller's theory is sound, which he doesn't mention. While the party is listening to the likes of Amy Sullivan about how to compromise on abortion rights so as to appeal to conservative evangelicals, there is a resurgence of ideological progressivism throughout the country and we are not going to sit still for anybody running against us latte swilling liberals anymore. It would behoove the party to factor that into their calculations and see if they can find a way to properly respect their left flank while reaching out to swing voters.
I also suspect that the progressives in the south, with the help of the 50 state strategy, are going to begin to work harder than ever on that stubborn old region from the grassroots --- and netroots --- up. If they want us, we are here to help our southern brothers and sisters, many of them African American and our most loyal voters, to change that political dynamic once and for all. There's nothing that says just because the conservatives have ruled pretty much forever that they always will. Where there are candidates who want to run, even if it's a long shot, we will do what we can to help them just as we did this time --- and we'll be trainspotters for the national party to see where the soft spots are.
But the national party must forge an identity that makes sense, that conveys what we stand for and what our values are. And we cannot do that if we continue to try to split the difference on these culture war issues and tailor our message to some mythical southern white conservative whom we think will vote for us if only we wear the right clothes and carry a shot gun. The data shows that unless we start running "call me, Harold" ads, that isn't going to work on those guys. (And, btw, the southern conservative women vote pretty much the same way -- no gender gap in the south.) Until further notice, they are the southern majority. We'll do better in places where we can make a case based on economic populism and civil liberties that is untainted by a majority that are still too influenced by racism and fundamentalist religion to even meet us part of the way.
The proof is in the pudding. If Democrats can gain power we can begin to make a real case for progressivism in the south based upon progressive achievement.
(I do disagree with Schaller's belief that the Democrats could turn South Carolina into the "Taxachusetts" of the south --- meaning that we could use it as a symbol of being out of touch with the mainstream. I don't think it would work. That kind of thing works for the Republicans because they are exploiting an existing grievance among a group of right wingers who are perpetually aggrieved. Those guys have been railing against the yankees since before the country was even a country. It's peculiar to their own sense of regional pride.)
Now keep in mind that for every assertion I've made here, there are a hundred qualifiers and data points that Schaller's book addresses. He believes that the south will eventually become more progressive from the outside rim inwards, hence the win in Virgina. He sees Florida as a different kind of southern state and subject to a different analysis. There are many other fascinating details that only reading the book will fully satisfy.
I should also take the time to point out that it is an entertaining read for such a dry subject. Schaller spares no important data --- it's a work of scholarship. But it's written in the lively style that those of us who've been reading his posts at Daily Kos, the Gadflyer and TAPPED for the last few years have come to enjoy. It is a very breezy read for a work of social science.
So, on behalf of the Firedoglake crew, I am thilled to welcome Dr. Tom Schaller to today's book salon.
Fire when ready.
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Tom! Ned! Zed!
I’m here folks, and thanks to Digby for all the support and her thoughtful comments. Please fire away.
I remember a line from a lady who provided a coda to Ken Burn’s Civil War.
My recall is flawed, but it went something like: “We’re still fighting the civil war, and we could still lose it.”
hey Tom — good to see you!
So, I’ll go ahead and ask the obvious question. What do you tell people who say that you are writing off the south?
Hi, everyone…
And many thanks to Digby and Mr. Schaller to come here today to talk about our problems in the South.
I’ll post my question in just a moment…
: )
While waiting for folks to pipe in with questions or comments for either me or Digby, indulge me for a moment as I say a few things about Digby.
First, her writing is to me very powerful. Why? Because, although I know she’s shared with me privately how she picks over it and anguishes before ever hitting the “send” button, it never reads like something that has been written or proofed with an eye toward hedging or compromise. It is pure, and purely argued; coherent and sentient. There is courage in her voice.
To have her host this salon, and to have her say the things she does about my book and to know that she is “thrilled” to be presenting the book to FDL readers is humbling.
Tom… what percentage of Southern voters would you say support the GOP because of its “Southern (i.e. racist) strategy”?
(oh, and quick note to digby…. I love you, but you have a guest. Introduce the guest, and get off the stage next time…i kept reading and reading and reading YOUR prose…rather than getting to YOUR guest.)
Welcome Tom Schaller and Digby! what a treat to have you both here!
Thanks so much for this. Wouldn’t it be interesting if Democrats tried to appeal to swing voters in some other way than castigating their own left flank?
I’m also curious about how racial demographics may affect future voting patterns. It was my impression certainly in Tennessee, but also in other parts of the south, that many African Americans are moving there and the numbers might change sincr they are reliable Democrats.
I know we have a bunch of progressive southerners here at FDL and I hope they pipe up and share their experiences.
I was just waiting for several hours (argh plus) for a flight to Arkansas from Ohare and folks were watching CNN - the disgust with Bush expressed by the Arkansians around me was astonishing - he has clearly violated their sense of what is right.
Heh. Sorry Paul. I’ll try to have better manners in the future. I’m new to this “hosting” thing.
Hi Tom. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on whether Dems will gain/ lose/ hold seats in Louisiana and MS post Katrina? I’ve heard arguments in support and against all 3 possibilities.
awww Paul … getting some juicy Digby thinking in addition to a chance to talk with Tom works for me!
I’m also curious about how racial demographics may affect future voting patterns. It was my impression certainly in Tennessee, but also in other parts of the south, that many African Americans are moving there and the numbers might change sincr they are reliable Democrats.
good point Jane.
But its not just more blacks …. a lot of urban areas (think Atlanta) are finding themselves with more white “Northern” transplants who don’t have the same racial attitudes that “native” white Southerners do.
Tom, is white racist resistance increasing in those states that should, demographically, be getting more “democratic”?
OK, here’s my question:
With a growing Latino population in the South, and the general Latino movement toward Democrats, is there a chance that we can start making inroads in places like Texas, which has almost as many Latinos as California?
Let me tackle a couple of these questions.
First, I can’t possibly say what percentage/number of white southerners vote based on race. And, of course, racial antipathies are hardly contained to the South. What I do know is that conservativism in the South is especially (but not exclusively) tainted by race. This is most apparent when one considers that working-class, blue-collar whites and blacks who live side-by-side vote so differently. I do not, contra Tom Frank, think that white southerners (or white non-southerners) vote “against their interests.” I just think they WEIGHT their social-cultural values more. That’s why southern blacks–many of whom are just as conservative on issues like abortion or gay rights–still vote Democratic…that is, because they weight their civil rights and economic preferences more than their social-cultural ones. This is the major reason you have 8/9 blacks voting democratic in parts of the south where 7/8 of their white neighbors (literally, neighbors) are voting Republican.
As for the percentage of Republicans, the mention of TN is very sharp…in fact, there are only two states where the African American pop share is higher today than it was in 1950–and TN is one. LA is the other…or maybe, post-Katrina, WAS the other. It may be that 10 of the former 11 confed states now have smaller A-A pop shares than a half-century ago.
This is significant because blacks are the key starting point for any statewide Democratic majority. And, the sad irony is that by the time they fought and won their equal voting rights, their population shares had shrunk and white southerners started voting republican with a vengeance.
I’m disgusted w/ myself for not having read this book yet! I’m on my way out to get it tomorrow…
Thanks for being here and the excellent information Dr. Schaller.
What would your best advise be for us Southern Progressives as far as strategies?
It isn’t easy to look at one section of America and draw conclusons about voting patterns. With such a mix of ethnic profiles how does the PR machine get directed? Is it money politics? Are they still fighting the civil war? Aren’t folks just looking to sustain their individuality? I dunno — it all seems so paternal.
Newt seems to think fear is the underlying source of unity. Fear of bloggers is the new black in phobias it seems now. Hooray! (We are likewise humbled by the power we are perceived to wield.)
Thanks to FDL for the continuous parade of top talent guests and discussion. Y’all rock! ILY Digby! And we’re still mad as hell…
(PS - is spell check down?)
p.lukasiak @ 14
OK, let me tackle the growing non-southern southern population, and the Latino question, which is a sub-part of that.
Quickly, aside from TX and FL, the southern states are toward the bottom of the latino statewide pop shares. The RATE of increase in their latino populations is often huge–but a 200% increase over the last decade from 1% to 3% seems like a lot in relative terms (it is), but in statewide threshold and multi-racial Democratic voting coalition terms it is not. UT, RI and CT all have higher Latino pops than every southern state except TX and FL.
as for the in-migration of non-southern americans (white, black or whatever) to the south, yes, indeedy, this is a key factor in the growing assimilation of the South (and other regions) to the broader american culture. as i often say in book talks, at some point my book will become obsolete, because the south is becoming less distinct every day. it’s far less distinctive now than 30 years ago and will be less distinct 30 years hence. part, but not all of this change, is being driven by growth of non-native southerners in places like the I-4 corridor in FL, the research triangle in NC, the tech belt of Austin, cities like Atlanta and Charlotte, and of course, Northern Virginia. it is ironic that some of the most competitive places for D’s in the south are the places with the highest number of non-native southerners. ironic, but not surprising.
in fact, there are only two states where the African American pop share is higher today than it was in 1950
Tom, is 1950 really the appropriate stating point? Nixon’s “southern strategy” wasn’t even started until the early 1970s, and I would think that if you are looking for the impact of the percentage of black voters in a given state on election results, you’d want to start around 1980…)
Tom Schaller 16 — interesting. I am no Harold Ford fan but I had hoped that the DSCC’s decision to run him meant the demographics in that state were shifting. Even if he lost it showed a commitment to African American voters that was hopeful; it certainly would seem true that if African Americans don’t show up to the polls, no Democrat in TN stands a chance.
Wish I could stay and chat but I have to leave soon to slice and dice a wingnuts on a radio panel show (based out of WLS-Chicago but syndicated; it starts at 6 CST so after this head on over…http://www.beyondthebeltway.com/).
The shocking thing I learned after writing about Tom’s important work was how many of our fellow Americans say that claiming that blacks are lazier than whites is not racist at all. I got all kinds of crazy emails–like the guy who wrote me and said northerners were just jealous of the South because it was such an economic powerhouse!
I sent that last one on to Tom. He said that was nothing compared to some of the stuff he’d received.
So: tell some good stories, Tom, about the reception to the book from people who don’t want to listen to reason?
Great synopsis, Digby, and welcome, Tom.
Tom,
Which states have the richest veins of potential Democratic votes in your opinion — and what do you think the Democrats have to do to get them?
On the issue of my “advice to southern progressives” the short answer is “keep plugging along.” and i don’t just say that to be kind, and here’s why: i’ve come to realize i was wrong about something (or incomplete in my thinking) in the book. my error was one i realized after spending a lot of time talking with a smart progressive NC dem named ed cone, who has a great weblog of his own. what i realized is that my NATIONAL strategy means not dumping money into places we can’t win that become money pits and make us less competitive where we can win.
so, i wouldn’t want the DCCC or DSCC sendign money into almost any races this past cycle, except the few where we had a reason expectation becuase “moral” victories are still losses.
however, i now realize that any ORGANIC resources–i.e., a check that would be written to Heath Shuler of NC but only him; a volunteer who wants to turn out for her local county execs race but ain’t going to run to NH to help Carol Shea-Porter, etc.–that raising and investing these resources does NO harm to national efforts. so go for it, and pull others in. that will help win back the south over the longer term, too.
i have a deep sense of respect for southern progressives b/c their jobs are the hardest in the country.
Wither Colorado?
hey, rick and pach. glad you could join digby and jane and all the great FDL posters and readers.
i’d actually rather not talk about the crazy emails i get. the one thing i’ll say is that i understand why people are particularly sensitive about southern-bashing, and i try to studiously avoid that. what i do is, in a wittgensteinian sense, “show but not say.” and the empirics may make some people uncomfortable, but they are what they are.
and i’ve learned to converse with many email haters by letting them know i fully recognize that there’s plenty of racism in the non-south. PLENTY. and it should be fought there just as strenously as the deepest parts of the deep south. and for the same reasons.
On the issue of my “advice to southern progressives” the short answer is “keep plugging along.”
Tom, it seems to me that one of your messages is that the south is too conservative/”anti-progress” for Democrats to win. Would southern progressives be better off calling themselves “southern populists”?
Rick Perlstein 22 — thanks for stopping by. I’ll bring you over for Thanksgiving dinner in Robertson County some day, you can hear some really outrageous stuff followed by ’some of my best friends are…’
Gunfire over sweet potatoes and turkey dressing, it should have novelty appeal for you anyway.
Yeah, well, the other thing I learned recently is that there should be nothing wrong with shooting someone on your front lawn if you feel threatened by him, and that cops serving bad warrants deserve the death penalty, too.
But that’s OT.
let me say something about harold ford, since jane mentioned him.
i was repulsed by his campaign, and in many ways i think it ratifies the point i’ve tried to make (but digby makes much better for me, in her opening essay) about the risks of corrupting oneself in the interest of winning elections. ford ran the ideal DLC campaign–he spoke about the power of his jesus; did an ad in church pews; wore a hunting cap on election day; thundered against the NJ gay ruling and piled on John Kerry. and maybe that tightened things in TN. but at what cost?
the most inexcusable moment was when chris matthews asked him if the “hey harold” ad was racist. he said “no.” twice. so here was a black man, knowing full well if he said the truth, that calling it racist might, um, risk losing the votes of some folks who don’t want to take lectures about racism from him (or anyone else), choosing not to speak truth. he was willing to sell out blacks and the truth to gain white votes. disgusting.
Having lived in the south and the midwest, I find the divide more between urban and rural than north and south. I’ve met just as many bigots in rural midwest as I have in the south.
Mr. Schaller said:
You did, however, mention local support of candidates.
I thought the lesson learned this past cycle was that we should contest every post in every state every cycle. Because opportunities can come without warning and to have a candidate with local backing who can then make that race national is good.
Am I misreading this?
pelican @ 32
Well, there’s truth to that, too. Look, people who have to live in multi-ethnic situations are forced to either deal with their inherent (and entirely human) need for similarity and familiarty, and thus to reflex to categorize based on difference. and though there are poorly-educated folks in the cities and well-educated rural americans, education is a major factor here.
we always talk about education as a solution for occupational opportunity. but better-educated people, on average, save and invest smarter; they take better care of their health and bodies; and they are more tolerant.
i never wonder why the GOP wants to do as little as possible to TRULY expand educational opportunities: a smarter America is a less republican america, because all their nasty tricks and divide-and-conquer politics are less likely to work. and fear will always have less power to suppress with those who have read generally, and read anti-utopian books in particular.
i just saw “V for Vendetta” this weekend for the first time….that’s my point.
Thanks Tom– you just answered my question at 27– there certainly is plenty of racism in the NE and West coast where I have lived.
I’ve found that the South traditionally had a closer sense of community whereas in the North and even on the West coast, not so much of the busybody attitude at all.
I do worry about the widespread racism and hatred toward brown and Muslim folk that is pervasive throughout America and has somehow united many in this country against the “boogeyman”. I think that the Republicans (and some Dems) figure that they can tap into this unfortunate characteristic of our countrymen and capitalize on it and use it to their advantage.
I was trying to say “whither Colorado.” Would you discuss any difference between Colorado Springs evangelicals and deep south evangelicals?
Tom,
How salient do you think the big culture war issues like abortion and gay rights are in the west and midwest?
Tom Schaller 31 — I always thought Ford was a poor choice because outside of Memphis the the Fords are not highly regarded (they get a bye on the legal problems in Memphis, but not outside). I understood why he did that on Matthews but it was damn hard to watch. And the hunting cap — don’t even bother.
GRANDMA J WRITES:
You did, however, mention local support of candidates. I thought the lesson learned this past cycle was that we should contest every post in every state every cycle. Because opportunities can come without warning and to have a candidate with local backing who can then make that race national is good. Am I misreading this?
yes, a bit, but probably because i am being too unclear. national resources should NOT be spent everywhere…they should be spent wisely and strategically, based on best available projections. will there be some missed opportunities? yes. will there be tons of money dumped into tammy duckworth races (and harold fords, too)? yup. but for the most part we can target now better than ever before.
but when it comes to LOCALIZED resources that would NOT OTHERWISE be spent/given to national efforts, find and raise and use and spend them without limit locally. it doesn’t hurt national efforts and won’t hurt locally. (it’s what social choice/game theorists call a “pareto improvement”…nobody does worse but some may do better. the natl party is not jeopardized, and some local efforts may yield results.
Tom, Jane and Digby — so sorry to be running late today. We had a family engagement that ran longer than I expected.
So great to see Tom and Digby in the same space!
Two questions:
(1) Any lessons to be learned from past progressive movements in the South?
(2) How do we use the increased Southernization of the GOP against it without needlessly making things even harder for Southern progressives?
Also, Grandma J, there is absolutely no excuse not to run SOME Democrat for every office, even in the most Republican areas, if only because the Republican might slip on a banana peel, etc.
Digby @ 37
well, colorado is the biggest story in democratic politics over the past two cycles. we went from no guv, no chamber majorities in the state leg, a minority of US House seats, and neither senator; now we have flipped them all, plus a majority of House and 1 of 2 senators. amazing.
colorado is changing rapidly. and yes, the evangelicals there are powerful. but guess what? that’s a good thing? as ryan sager, in his book “elephant in the room” points out, and as John C. Green at Akron U’s bliss institute, and one of the top religion-n-politics scholars in the country explained to me two years ago, the rise of evangelicals in the west is taking over the state republican parties and pulling them WAY TOO FAR to the right for libertarian sensibilities–and, by extension, making democratic messages and messengers more and more attractive. this is a big part (but only part; demographic changes are also key) to the rising democratic fortunes out west.
we had none of 8 govs in jan 01; in jan 07 we’ll have 5 of 8. amaaaaaaaaazing.
I took a little guff on a private email list for saying, pre-election, with the Senate in the balance, that I hope Ford loses. I said it because of all the reasons discussed, and also because a Ford win would set the party back, leaving significant portions of it to continue to labor under the illusion Tom so aptly exposes in his book.
Tom — on the book, which I thought was a wonderful, thought-provoking kick in the pants for a lot of the political “braintrust” types:
The Democratic party apparatus in so much of the South has been allowed to atrophy to the point of ineffective and pathetic shells of groups. That revitalization is going to take quite a while, even with committed liberals stepping into that breach. In the meantime, some tough decisions do have to be made in terms of committing resources NOW, as well as for the long-term. You make a good case on how to do that, Tom — but I know that folks like Mudcat Saunders and some of the other Southern Dem strategists had a few words about that at YKos with you.
Have you been able to change any of their minds? Or have they been able to change yours at all since then? Has your opinion changed in any way in the wake of the 2006 election cycle and looking ahead to 2008?
Paul Rosenberg @ 41
on (1), yes, and it is, sadly, this: economic populism was (and might be again) very popular in the south when the beneficiaries are (or are perceived to be) whites. the way to move the economic populism theme down there is to frame policies that way, but make them general entitlements that benefit blacks. so much of the antipathy toward welfare is driven by the fact that media depictions always exaggerate the share of blacks depending on such programs. (but see research of Martin Gilens and others.)
on (2), this is tougher. on the first part, we use the increased southernization to objectify the GOP to non-southerners and move them toward us. but on the second count, i think there is still a way to make the case WITHIN the SOUTH that the local/state GOP has isolated and marginalized itself. five of the 11 former confederate states, according to surveyUSA, have more pro-choice than pro-life self-describees. so the GOP is even out of touch WITHIN the south on some issues. press your case on their weak spots, and keep hammering them.
Tom….
Do you think its worth the effort for Democrats to attempt to appeal to “Christian Conservatives” by emphasizing was Jesus said about stuff like helping the poor and people different from yourself…. or is trying to appeal to the “Christian” in a “Christian Conservative” a waste of time?
I wonder if you have any thoughts as to why African American pastors and a leading A.A. legislator in VA actively supported George Allen even after macaca and the rest of his filthy laundry was exposed.
Was it just because of the money Allen managed to allocate to AA colleges/faith based initiatives or what?
I mean, isn’t racism toward anyone anathema to anyone who has suffered from it???
Christy Hardin Smith @ 45
CHRisty: Hey, glad you’re with us. Well, some Mudcat-types are just not gonna budge. but i talked at length with jim carville this week at a conference in NoVirginia, and he is (as may surprise some here, because it surprised me) like a completely different person off-stage when the cameras are not on. he said to me, “who is pushing back against your arguments? I can’t imagine anyone would.” i almost fell over. maybe he was just killing me with southern kindness, but i think he understands how uphill the battle is.
as for the mudcats, here’s what i say to them when they lecture me about how “immoral” my arguments are: You are the southern democrats, and you know the “bubbas” (as they call them), and so YOU are the ones that need to do the convincing. you tell me they’re not too hostile to the democratic party or too racist to vote for the party that defended the civil rights movement? prove it. and if it takes some moral suasion, i’ll gladly shut the hell up if you can make the moral case to them in their own ways/terms to make them see that the GOP is screwing them over by playing to their base motives. i still think one needs to solve the underlying problem of those motives, and that all the NASCAR sponsorships and affected accents we get from harold ford during an election year don’t fool anyone.
isn’t it immoral for the mudcats to not turn to their fellow southerners and say, “hey, some of your ideas and stereotypes are wrong…knock it the hell off!”
FBI: Recruiters Caught in Drug Probe
TUCSON, Ariz. — A dozen Army and Marine recruiters who visited high schools were among the personnel caught in a major FBI cocaine investigation, and some were allowed to keep working while under suspicion, a newspaper reported Sunday.
None of the recruiters was accused of providing drugs to students.
The recruiters, who worked in the Tucson area, were targets of a federal sting called Operation Lively Green, which ran from 2001 to 2004 and was revealed last year. So far, 69 members of the military, prison guards, law enforcement employees and other public employees have been convicted of accepting bribes to help smuggle cocaine.
The Arizona Daily Star reviewed the investigation and court documents and found that the FBI allowed many recruiters to stay on the job even though they were targeted by the investigation. Some were still recruiting three years after they were photographed running drugs in uniform, the newspaper said.
Most of the recruiters pleaded guilty and will be sentenced in March. Some honorably retired from the military.
The sting began after the FBI received tips that a former Army National Guardsman was taking bribes to fix military aptitude tests for recruits, FBI Special Agent Adam Radtke said.
Military officials say they kept the recruiters on the job because the FBI told them to leave the suspects alone to avoid jeopardizing the sting. The military said it also didn’t know some recruiters were under investigation, the newspaper reported.
Military officials say the criminal acts by recruiters were rare out of the thousands of recruiters working across the country. “This was an isolated incident,” said Marine Corps recruiting spokeswoman Janice Hagar.
A governing board member of the Tucson Unified School District, Judy Burns, criticized the FBI for allowing the recruiters to stay on the job so long.
“It’s ludicrous to me that the FBI would leave these people in place and allow them onto our high school campuses,” Burns said.
Special Agent Deb McCarley said the FBI generally performs risk assessments before deciding to keep suspects who work in public positions on the job during undercover investigations.
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December 17, 2006 - 3:46 p.m. Cop
As a Yankee (a displaced Californian) living in the south, I have observed a couple of phenomena that may be relevant. First, there are a lot of non-southerners moving here, and that pattern will not change. It will only increase, and it has already had an effect on local politics: even Republican politicians have moved toward the center, because they are having to appeal to voters from, say, Maine and New York whose priorities cannot be relied upon to fit with the historical voting patterns in their new homes. Second—and I do wonder if I’m correctly observing this: I think some southerners may be voting more Republican partly as a reaction to more moderate and progressive Yankees moving into their territory. I have heard anecdotes to that effect from my southern friends. Tom, do you have any comment on that?
And a P.S. I thought Digby’s intro was great—it was very helpful to me.
One aspect that needs to be clarified is the difference between southern attitudes in the general population and attitudes among that subgroup of the population that votes. Fighting over the opinions of the general population is a zero-sum game, but if the Dems are working on winning elections, expanding the subgroup of voters to include more progressives is a non-zero sum game (up to the size of the total population).
This is where the 50 state strategy matters. No one wants to stand up, all alone, by themselves. But if the local folks get the sense that they are not being abandoned, they are not being forgotten, and even that they are being supported and encouraged in their efforts by folks at the national level, it’s a lot easier to increase the enthusiasm and strength of the Democratic party. That support can come from official democratic groups like the DNC, DCCC, DSCC, or from less official groups like the various 527s.
Increasing the progressive base in the south does not necessarily mean converting rabid conservatives. Efforts to convince the progressives who feel “I don’t matter, ’cause the dems always lose here” that they are wrong may be much more productive.
p.lukasiak @ 47
well, think the GOP share of the evangelical vote when from like 77% to 74%, or somethng like that, this year. (don’t hold me to these numbers.) i guess that’s good that it is moving in our direction, but for such a powerful Democratic year to yield such a marginal increase (one, conceivably, within the polling margin of error) gives me, to be honest, very little hope.
Tom at 50 — I absolutely agree. The Kerry photo-op in Ohio with the hunting jacket was so contrived — even if Kerry had gone hunting before, it just did not work for who he was. Authentic works in the South — but it has to be authentic to the individual. Those of us who live below the Mason-Dixon line are used to quirky and individual, and we can deal with that. But the phony Harold Ford in a hunting cap? So very wrong.
I wonder what the role of universities in cultural change. In North Carolina, there is a lot of economic activity, research, small businesses, arts, etc. The triangle is essential to the state.
What institutions are there to use as a base for progressive political, economic, and social development? Clearly, the influence of Bob Jones University is not going to help South Carolina Dems ever. But are there possibilities of growing a creative class, a progressive core around Emory or Vanderbilt or other universities?
What other institutions need to be in place in the long run? Are some there already?
raven and others:
No off topic comments in Book Salon, please, as is our community custom.
Thanks!
Blue Dido @ 52
BLUE DIDO: Boy, i’ll have to plead ignorance on the latter part–i just don’t know if there are studies showing that southern natives are voting more republican as a response or backlash to the infusion of non-native southerners in their region. that notion makes some sense intuitively, but often intuitions are just plain wrong. absent having read something, i’ll have to punt.
on the former part, i have already noted that some of the areas where Ds are increasing competitive are a result of in-migration to the region of non-native southerners. their arrival may be sufficient, if native southerners just vote the same way. but you’re right, there is potentially a cancellation effect.
a side note on NoVirginia and its effect on virginia’s competitiveness: this is the region that propelled warner, kaine and now webb to statewide victories. after FL, which is the most competitive state for Ds in presidential elections precisely because it has the most non-native southerners, i’d say VA is our next best opportunity. had warner stayed in (or if he runs for VP) maybe we have a shot at it in 2008. but i’m thinking more 2012 or 2016.
Increasing the progressive base in the south does not necessarily mean converting rabid conservatives. Efforts to convince the progressives who feel “I don’t matter, ’cause the dems always lose here” that they are wrong may be much more productive.
on the margins, perhaps. But it really doesn’t help the progressive movement to spend money increasing the Democratic vote in a southern congressional district from 34% to 42%.
Alison @ 56
Universities of course play a big part because they have a lot of young people, tend to have higher rates of college-educated folks, and bring non-native southerners to the south. that’s why austin, athens, and chapel hill are key progressive-liberal oases.
the problem here is that areas like the research trinagle park in central NC, which is backboned by having Duke/UNC/NCState/NCCentral all in the area (among other colleges), is that major universities don’t just pop up overnight. i teach at a school that’s only my age: 40. it’s now the second biggest research university in maryland, behind college park. but that kind of growth is rare. there won’t be another research triangle in NC any time soon.
Jane at 38 — I wondered about Ford as the choice as well, given some of the outright hostility I have heard about his family from folks who live outside Memphis. And I wondered if that just got glossed over somehow in the discussions with the Beltway crowd who got talked into going whole hog on the Ford bandwagon…and how something that obvious could just be overlooked.
SHAMELESS PLUG: I’ll be on The Colbert Report on Mon., Jan 22.
Colbert is from SC, incidentally, in case you didn’t already know.
Could be fun…
Tom at 61 — awesome! Do tell him that I worship at his snarky feet, even if he is to the right of Bill O. *G*
SHAMELESS PLUG: I’ll be on The Colbert Report on Mon., Jan 22.
never be ashamed of plugging an appearance on Colbert! :)
And given the topic, you know that Colbert is gonna be at the top of his form.
My advice… watch Penn Jillette’s guest appearance, and do the opposite…
Thanks, Tom. I am thinking of one specific anecdote told to me by a progressive native of North Carolina. He said he had asked a friend living in a small town why people were still voting for Jesse Helms, even when he knew they didn’t like Helms. His friend said, “yes, we don’t like Helms, but we don’t like you eggheads in the Triangle [=Research Triangle area of central NC, a relatively moderate-to-progressive region] even more, and we know you hate Helms. So we vote for him just to make you snobs mad.” I have much independent confirmation that the more rural parts of this state have very mixed feelings about the population of the Triangle.
I don’t know if this is a general truth, or what, but it fits in with some other phenomena I have observed around here. And at the same time that people here were electing Helms, they were also electing moderate Democrats for governor. (I can’t even bear to speak of our two useless current senators, but at least they’re not as bad as Jesse.) But perhaps this state is just a mixed bag. Still, there are a lot of progressives here, for whom I’m very grateful, and I hope we’ll be the next state after Virginia to lean more Democratic.
Thanks for the encouragement… it is very disheartening here sometimes (getting quite often!)
I absolutely do not like to see pandering to the extremist faction a la the Ford campaign as you mentioned above- I can hold my nose & vote for “marginal” Democratic candidates only up to a point!
I’m happily surprised by what you say about Carville, Tom. That’s good news since he is the “star strategist” of the Democratic party. Maybe he feels chagrined by the response he got for his stupid trial balloon about making Ford the head of the DNC.
But I think one thing we all have to keep in mind is that guys like Mudcat have a vested interest in keeping their southern strategy alive. That’s how he makes his living.
I read his book and some of it is very good. All of you who work in politics in the south should read it. He takes it right to the Republicans in attitude and I think it’s effective. It really helped Webb to be an in your face true blue marine to that phony tobacco spitting Californian (I’m one so I can say it like that.) I’m sure he’s the one who had Webb call him George “Felix” Allen.
But his policy prescription is just madness for the Democrats and I guarantee if the party goes along with their ideas we will see another Ralph nader debacle within the next ten years and a move back to the GOP as soon as they figure out their latest code.
For instance, Mudcat really wants to “put the term illegal alien in the bait can” and favors as harsh an immigration stance as the most conservative Republican. They favor it because white southern males are attracted to it.
The Democratic party, however, if it plays its cards right, is going to be the home of the second biggest ethnic population in the nation before long — latinos. Going after the white southern male by rudely dissing Mexicans is cutting off our noses to spite our faces.
That’s the kind of stuff we need to resist and we will if we reject that southern strategy.
p.lukasiak @ 59
Money remains a zero-sum element. If you spend it here, you can’t spend it there. But supporting the party is critical, IMHO, to not just congressional races but also the state legislative contests, county board elections, and any manner of local races. As Dems make inroads in the down-ticket races, the chances for success up the ticket in future elections increases.
My basic point was to look at the difference between fighting over the voters in the last election (i.e. trying to win over conservatives) versus adding new progressive voters to the game. Put in the form of a question, I’m asking this: Once we’ve decided to spend the money, which of these two approaches should we engage?
For my money, it’s the second approach that will win.
(quick note to paul…. I love you, but you are in a discussion. Ask your question and get off the stage next time…i kept reading and reading and reading YOUR questions/comments…rather than getting to the many other contributors and new faces)
The converse of Democrats avoiding compromise on “southern values” is to force the Republicans to publicly embrace them. So following up a little on Rosenberg’s second question, are there some particular issues which could be used to “wedge” the Republicans into openly supporting Southern positions that are plainly antithetical to most others in the nation? Or put another way, are there particular issues that could be used to force them out in the open on this?
A strategy to make the Republicans a regional party of the South might leave them with about 20 Senate seats and around 100-150 House seats. But such a strategy would not allow Dems to write off the South. We would have to stay competitive in the South so that they can’t triangulate away from it.
BLUE DIDO: Well, if you liked that quote about how southerners were still voting for helms, despite disliking him, as a way of spiting the folks in the research triangle, you’ll like the part in Whistling Past Dixie where i discuss the acronym native NCers have for Cary, NC, the tony bedroom suburb outside raleigh where a lot of research triangle types live: Contamination Area–Relocated Yankees.
C.A.R.Y.
pretty funny, actually.
First of all, it’s FANTASTIC to have Digby here. Your writing, Digby, is a great beacon to us, a lighthouse of rationality and reason that illuminates the whole landscape. You’re worth at least 4 or 5 of our self-styled punditocracy … as are your other commentators. So, there.
angie @
35
Tom, can you talk about the whole
idea of a regional identity and how it affects us? What other regions of the country have a strong regional identity that affects how they vote?
I’m a Yankee, but it was only after I came into contact with Southerners (including a friend during college who explained that his kin were genuinely worried from his changing accent that he was “turnin’ into a Yankee”) that I realized I had a regional identity (New Yorker/New Englander), and it’s only been in the last few years that I’ve realized I’m proud of that identity … because I contrast it to the Southern identity.
That’s not to say we don’t have our share of racists and wingnuts all over, but I’m glad that Mass. leads the nation in gay marriage, for instance. And although it’s not necessarily fair to progressives in the South fighting their battles, I feel in some way that “they” (conservative white Southerners who have been wrong on just about every social issue for two centuries) started this, and now that the NE has realigned substantially along Democratic lines, and the Southwest and Colorado, etc., can flip more easliy than the Old South, I want us to stop obsessing about them (not Southerners … just the white Southern conservative with latent racial attitudes).
Does this kind of attitude generalize? Are there other folks out there who will work against Southern conservatives because they offend a different region’s attitudes?
Kim Phillips, in American Theocracy pointed out that the South in effect re-fought and won the Civil War in the 90’s, by controlling the national political discorse. I like the idea of exporting a NE or West Coast or Rocky Mountain brand of Democratic principles to the South instead of pandering to the CW that the Dems have to run someone who will run strongly in the South.
I’ll be watching Colbert.
Tom Schaller @ 62
I’ll make sure to watch it…
And btw, thanks for answering my question upthread! : )
Re Tom Schaller @ 46
Your mention of Gilens made me think of this. He impressed me mightily when I first read him. However, one part of his analysis seems flawed in retrospect: claiming that racism generally has receeded–with many stereotypes fading in frequency, for example–leaving only a narrow residue.
However, the work of folks like Eduardo Bonilla-Silva on colorblind racism strongly suggests that the new racism is not well measured by the old measures. Your work seems to speak to this as well. Do you have any thoughts on more carefully studying how racist ideology is framed in order to counter it? Or does this seem like a waste of time to work on frontally?
Tom Schaller @ 49
Kinda reminds me of my friends who are still Republicans and claim they are “Eisenhower Republicans.” I think it’s great if they want to try to reclaim their party, but only if they’re actually doing something about it. Mostly it just seems to be an excuse to say “I’m not like those crazy types” while continuing to vote for people who pander to the crazy types.
I have met a wonderful young economist named Nathan Nunn. Nathan has written about the persistent effects of the slave trade on the countries from whom slaves were taken. Slavery, Institutional Development, and Long-run Growth in Africa, 1400-2000
What I recall is that he also found evidence that the economic life and institutions of the locales which imported slaves also have persistent effects. Their economies are depressed because of their dependence on free labor, labor without protections, labor without choices.
It seems to me that if the Dems ever want to gain a foothold in such an environment, large scale economic development is absolutely necessary. The south was always a place to manufacture goods cheaply and without employment standards. Few manufacturers choose to remain for those reasons now, when they can go to Mexico or China.
The South might be experiencing an economic dead end. They cannot survive when the real thi