
The NYTimes has an in-depth examination of the criminal justice system in Iraq. It is a very painful read. No matter which side of the criminal system you stand on -- defense or prosecution -- the ultimate goal on all sides is some attainment of justice. Or at least, it ought to be, anyway. But this...this is so far from justice, that I am sitting here in despair after reading it this morning:
The stakes are rising. The court has begun sentencing American-held detainees to death by hanging, 14 this year.Almost every aspect of the judicial system is lacking, poorly serving not just detainees but also Iraqi citizens and troops trying to maintain order.
Soldiers who have little if any training in gathering evidence or sorting the guilty from the innocent are left to decide whom to detain. The military conducts reviews to decide whom to release, yet neither Iraqi detainees nor defense lawyers are allowed to attend, according to military documents and interviews.
Tens of thousands of detainees have been released by the Americans, often under political pressure from the Iraqis, but American soldiers complain they are apprehending many dangerous insurgents again and again. At the same time, detainees are held for long periods by the Americans without being charged, in some instances for as long as two years.
Even detainees who are formally charged and brought to the Iraqi court have little ability to develop a defense against evidence collected by American lawyers and soldiers. Most defense lawyers are appointed by the court and paid $15 per case. Even if they are so inclined, they are largely unable to gather evidence because of the threat of violence. One American lawyer said that in 100 cases he handled, not one defense lawyer had introduced evidence or witnesses.
The central court resembles the narrow end of a funnel crowded with suspects captured by American and Iraqi forces. No figures are available on prisoners held by Iraqis, but the Americans have held about 61,500 over the past three years and are now holding 14,000, military officials say. Roughly 3,000 have been charged and tried in the Iraqi court.
The court acquits nearly half of the defendants, but both Americans and Iraqis involved in the process say that political interference, threats from militants and the judges’ fear for their lives weigh heavily in many verdicts. The military has found housing in the protected Green Zone for only 12 of the 30 judges on the criminal court. The others commute to work.
“The most fundamental thing that we need to do in Iraq is establish the rule of law,” said Mark Waller, an Air Force Reserve major and deputy district attorney in Colorado, who spent four months this year in Baghdad helping to prosecute detainees. “It’s the cornerstone of a civilization. Without it you have anarchy. And we are falling short.” ... (emphasis mine)
There is so much more in this article, and I urge you to read the whole of it. Read the snippet above again -- in over 100 cases witnessed by one American lawyer involved in an advisory capacity, not one defense attorney introduced a witness or evidence. Not one. The death penalty is being imposed on several of these defendants -- and not even the American legal advisors to the military tribunals are comfortable with the proceedings in which these convictions are being obtained.
Yes, you read that correctly, the Americans are uncomfortable with the evidence that they, themselves, are producing in order to obtain convictions.
Given the state of the justice system in Iraq, however, using the death penalty concerns even one of the American prosecutors who helped bring cases against detainees.“There are a lot of bad guys out there trying to kill U.S. troops and I want nothing more than to stop those guys,” said Mr. Waller, the Colorado deputy district attorney and Air Force Reserve major. But he said the Iraqi court system needed safeguards to prevent innocent defendants from being sent to the gallows.
“If I had the right guy and I had the right case I think I’d be O.K. with that,” Mr. Waller said. But, today in Iraq, he said, “I don’t think that situation would present itself.”
It is immensely difficult, even under the best of circumstances, to determine guilt or innocence in complex cases -- when you add in the identification and language barriers under which so many of our soldiers are operating in Iraq, and the complex undercurrents of religious and social rivalries, the deisire for revenge or greed that may factor into some of the identifications of potential insurgent target arrests, and all of the other things that are involved in investigating criminal matters in a nation where the police force is bombed pretty much on a daily basis by people who hope that they cease to function altogether...you get a small slice of what life must be like for the judges and lawyers who have to risk their lives every day just to make it to the courtrooms in which they work.
This is a problem so vast, with a system so integral to the functioning of a civil society...and it is not working. Not at all.
Yesterday, there was another round of mass kidnappings in Baghdad -- this time at the offices of the Red Crescent, pulling desperately needed aid workers off the job and throwing the workings of the group (and their families) into chaos. Whether this was intended as some sort of aid message, throwing Iraq even further into the spiral for more and more destruction, or whether this was simply a ploy for the kidnappers to make more money (this has become a tool of leverage for monetary gain, which is why so few Iraqis venture out of their homes unless it is necessary to do so these days), is unclear at the moment.
But after reading the NYTimes article on the judicial system, even if people are arrested for the kidnappings, how can anyone be certain that the correct people are apprehended or even convicted -- or not, since there seems to be some vast history of catch and release of insurgents.
What a mess.
I have asked a jury for and obtained convictions on defendants that put them in the prison system for life. It is not an easy thing to ask for someone else's existence, that they be locked away in a cell with little to no hope of release -- and you weigh that request very carefully when you make it against all of the evidence at hand, including information about the defendant and the magnitude of the crime(s).
I cannot imagine functioning even remotely on any sort of appropriate basis for decisionmaking within the chaotic mess that is Iraq -- under threats of death for yourself or your family, constantly wondering if you will make it to your job at the courthouse in one piece, not being able to meet with clients or, if when you do, not having any of the information about evidence obtained against him or her to adequately prepare a defense...and it goes on and on. As a prosecutor, having to rely on flimsy evidence and, wanting more than anything for the violence in your community to be brought under some control, trying to trust that the information brought to you is accurate.
Or, in the alternative, the possibility being that the police and prosecutors work in tandem for one faction or another exacting revenge on another faction as rivalries and civil strife heats to the boiling point. And if you are an American advisor with little to no background in the region and barely any language skills, how exactly would you be able to know the difference?
And Justice wept.
(H/T to Scarecrow for e-mailing the NYTimes article link to me last night. Thanks much for the heads up.)
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FITZ!
uno mas zed?
Chairman Leahy. And hurry.
I guess that’s what I get for mixing languages…
And the Decidererer wants to escalate the conflict, in order to bludgeon the people we “liberated” into doing what we want, and we wonder why they hate us.
Mission accomplished.
Wow.
what a mess is right…all predicted long before the decision was made initiating this unprovoked aggression against a country we knew was no threat
I’m gonna repeat a post I made on the previous thread;
think progress has this;
remember yesterday I said the term for the day was “escalating committment”
notice how he took the suggestion of “20,000 more soldiers”, which doesn’t sound like a hell of a lot, and created what the public considers legitimate discussion
now, it escalates
this is how he got us into the war, “6 months, I doubt a year”
“a few billion dollars that will be funded by Iraqi oil”
now, a twenty year battle against insurgents and trillions of dollars invested
“escalating committment”
so there we were, actually debating 20,000 more soldiers, which of course legitimizes 40,000
then when we start talking about that, it turns into 100,000
bottom line is this;
according to the generals in the field, if he doesn’t get the total up to half a million, there is no chance for any kind of headway in Iraq.
that’s where he’s headed…it’s “go big”, it’s not “go home”
it’s a combination of “go big and go long”
he’s creating the scenarion that makes the phsycological term “escalating commitment” bear fruit
when I say “he’s”, I mean his pupeteers, he’s just a marionette
So the judicial system isn’t part of the democracy we meant, all along, (as Official Reason # 27 for Bush’s War) to bring to Iraq?
David Ehrenstein and Marion, I left a post downstairs for you.
Fitz!
jayt @ 8
and this is where the progressives need to take the debate as well
we have to hammer and hammer away at the pack of lies that were sold to us for the run up to war
here it is, december, another beutifull sunday, right around 60 degrees here in lawn guy land new york
off for some out door tennis
SCORE
Thanks for spotlighting this, Christy; I know it must have been painful. And we can/should SPOTLIGHT it further. I saw this last night but didn’t have the stomach to read it all the way through until this a.m. It is crushing.
One of the worst parts is the forced complicity of US troops. Those who believed they were volunteering to bring democracy to Iraq are now asked to be enablers and enforces of a kafkaesque court system.
Just one more of the things where the President told the American people what a wonderful thing we were doing to bring American notions of justice to the Iraqis — and they we hand them this.
One can only hope that a true justice system finally deals with a the Bush/Cheney regime.
Justice, anywhere? What an antiquated notion?
AG Gonzales? An untoward man.
On CNN’s Late Edition, Danielle Pletka, from the neoconic American Enterprise Institute, is explaining why we need to win, we need to stay there and send in more troops. Why are we still listening to these people?
How does she respond to Powell, who says there’s no explained justification yet for more troops? She doesn’t respond, and instead quotes some neocon general who wants more, more, more. And it’s the President’s job to replace the doubters, like General Casey, who keeps asking, “what are these troops for? What can we achieve that’s worth the cost?”
AEI woman on CNN saying “we…”
What effin’ WE, “lady”? Since when have you put your life on the line for your psycho policies? What uniform and weapon are you wearing?
The neocon drumbeat to undo 11/7 marches on.
Palestinians killing Palestinians. Our gov’t, and the Israeli government have to be lovin’ it.
AP - Gunmen attacked the convoy of the Palestinian foreign minister and raided a training base for an elite security forces unit Sunday, stepping up factional violence over a decision by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to end nine months of Hamas rule and call early elections.
OK at 13 — I have to say, I saw justice meted out pretty frequently, every single day. With all its kinks, our judicial system is quite good at the sorting on the whole. Nothing is ever going to be perfect, but there are many, many times when I saw things done quite well. Stereotyping the whole of the system based only on its bad news is not an accurate representation. Although, I would certainly agree that Gonzales (and his predecessor, Ashcroft) hardly set a good example at the federal level. Blergh.
The Middle East is ready to explode.
I’ll be gratified when the media stops reporting that “men wearing police uniforms” (which you can buy almost *anywhere*, ya know) today kidnapped….
when they report that *Iraqi police* today kidnapped…
the dynamic will change.
My meme o’the day:
Stay the course, stalling, escalation is a pre-11/7 mindset.
Course correction, redeployment, setting a deadline is post-11/7 thinking.
The neocons, AEI, BushCo yammered for years and built their control on deriding the pre-9/11 mindse. Now it’s time–past time–to turn their words back on them.
Ack! Can’t edit. That’s “deriding the ‘pre-9/11 mindset.’”
must put new batteries in the keyboard….
scarecrow at 12 — it was an awfully painful read. There was a lot more that I wanted to say about it, but it kept coming out as a screaming rant and that seemed counterproductive to what I was trying to get across. SIGH What a mess, indeed…
Prairie at 15 — Have never seen the AEI woman before. Must be someone new they are bringing out special this week. Is anyone else familiar with her work at all?
Whenever I read stuff like this (pretty much every day) I find myself thinking about remedies, specifically impeachment. I’m familiar with what appears to be the FDL editorial line (such as it is)that impeachment should be the result of investigations and hearings, if the evidence warrants it. HAs anyone else read this pice by Poputonian on Hullabaloo;
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com.....6685675392
or the piece that gave rise to it;
http://www.inthesetimes.com/si.....icle/2937/
It occurs to me that we all, as Americans (and Green Cards-I could leave, but I don’t) will be held responsible by the international community, unless we send a very clear signal repudiating this amoral administration and its actions. Hamstringing BushCo for two years and then letting Drunkey Boy retire into brush-clearing dotage will not be sufficient in the eyes of the world.
jayt at 19 — yes, a little honesty on that subejct would be quite nice, wouldn’t it?
My idealized version of the US, the thing that I’ve always held most dear and respected is our Constitution, and by extension, justice system.
Democracy is good, don’t get me wrong, but if the last 12 years have demonstrated anything, it is that democracy can steer you wrong - because the majority can be fooled and manipulated, and you end up with the democracy you deserve.
The justice system, however, and the brilliance of the Bill of Rights and the seperation of powers, was our shining jewel. That protection for the accused, and the quest for truth, and justice. I know, it can be manipulated too, but it’s concept, it’s basic intrisic value was what gave us that City on a Hill to be admired and desired.
THAT was what we should have been bringing to an oppressed people who’d lived under the injustice of a dictator. Democracy doesn’t a free and just society make - it’s just the best means we’ve found so far to try to have one. A functioning, fair and truthful justice system, grounded in basic, fundamental rights, and with justice as it’s goal - and instead, we’ve given them a mockery - because we’ve made things so unstable, and so dangerous, and so just plain wrong, and there is no plan.
To say it saddens doesn’t being to describe it. I know this has been incoherent, but I just don’t know how else to express the emotion of what we’ve done to these people who never attacked us, who simply didn’t deserve this.
Justice wept.
I cannot imagine functioning even remotely on any sort of appropriate basis for decisionmaking within the chaotic mess that is Iraq
No lawyer could. Surely, no one can be happy with this mess. So, who’s most immediately to be looked at to change it?
Is this an Iraqi process - did we “suggest” it?
How does it change, and who does it?
I tend toward appreciation of the British system of justice. Rather than an adversarial system, as in ours, the British legal system is built on a “pooling” of information between all interested parties.
And of course the more money one has, in our system…
I was a juvenile/adult felony probation officer for the better part of a decade. All I did was investigate and write reports for ’super court’. I do not have a lot of faith in our criminal legal system.
I think the legal profession needs to take a long look at themselves. I am thinking here of politicians, and lobbyists, etc.
Compare ourselves to Japan and India for example. Those and other countries graduate far more, and I mean far more engineers, scientists, and math guys than lawyers.
PeteCO at 24 — you know, for me it is far from a “line” in terms of how I feel that should work. It’s a consideration of not just my feelings and those who already oppose the Administration, but a memory of how things worked when Newt and his cronies attempted a political coup by forcing impeachment down everyone’s throat…and how badly that turned out. Versus how a legitimate process during Watergate, and how it unfolded for everyone, including Nixon and his cronies…and how that turned out. It is both a pragmatic and political view, certainly, but that has always been MY way. And just because I think it doesn’t mean everyone else has to agree — but, at the same time, I do think that studying and learning from history, including the writings of the Founders on the subject, is incredibly useful. But that’s just me…
Is Petka, AEI, the very irritating person that I saw on Bill Mahr’s Real Time panel not so long ago?
btw
colon powell on think progress saying he dissagrees with gates and we are definately loosing
colon powell might start to do his job as a patriot.
too late, but let’s see how far he goes
now I’m defenately leaving,,,c u all L8ter
I’ve grown fond of turning ‘Mission Accomplished’ to “Mission Accompliced”.
In that spirit, Bernie Taupin’s lyrics to Elton John’s “Burn Down the Mission” are evocative:
http://www.eltonography.com/so.....ssion.html
Song appears on LP ‘Tumbleweed Connection’ with lots of ‘Old West/Wild West/War Between the States’ subjects. An excellent work.
However, THE version of this song is found on the live in-studio recording with Elton, Nigel Ollson and Davey Johnstone titled “11-17-70″.
If we are going to outsource the rebuilding of Iraq to American contractors, let’s atleast do the same for the justice system. Lets pay firms like Latham & Watkins, Aiken Gump, Foley & Lardner, and Skadden Arps $400 per hour to defend these guys. At least these firms know how to run up a bill — and then they will feel obligated to achieve a supportable result which would probably include some discovery (as ong as there is money in it for them). Money — it is the American form of justice.
So let’s recount here:
1) US provides no protection of global cultural articafts in Iraq’s museums.
2) US provides no oversight of the contracting process and agrees to no-bid contracts to large American proto-military companies and energy firms.
3) US changes its reasons for attacking Iraq when the first “justifications” prove wrong.
4) US bans government auditors from tracking billing submitted by contractors and from looking for irregularities.
5) US creates special category for non-military prisoners and locks them up indefinately with out charge.
6) US is executing people after a defense attorney is paid only $15 to present justifications why this guy should live.
The pattern I see is that the big “US” no longer includes the small “us”.
This is possibly the most depressing information I have seen about our war on Iraq. All the detention, Abu, GITMO, etc. pales, it seems to me, with this. There is no end but to GET OUT.
What can we do?
ironranger @ 30
Apparently so:
What a mess is right. Just when you think it can’t get any worse…actually, I’m sure intelligent people are very aware it will get much worse as more facts come to light. And thank you, yet again, Christy for your continued diligence in that regard.
And watching the idiot Gingrich on Timmeh this morning didn’t put me in the best of moods anyway. Just the fact that the prevaricating ass thinks he can continue to spew the same tired, old fear filled rhetoric is bad enough; but, to have Timmeh sit there and lap it up as fact just makes my blood boil. Timmeh is more reprehensible in my eyes for pretending to be an impartial conduit for reporting fact when, in point of fact, he does nothing more than allow a lying propaganda specialist to disseminate his lies.
Here’s a paraphrased example of just one of the things that really got me going:
Gingrich: In 1979 America was viewed as weak and we were attacked…If democrats decide to be defeated in Iraq, we will be viewed as weak again and there won’t be enough marines in the world to protect all the embassies from attack.
Timmeh: Everything you just said is acceptible to me, a priori, and I don’t feel any professional responsibility to question your rational for making such blatantly loaded statements which cannot be proved nor should be countenanced by any person who practices either logic or even just base level brain activity greater than autonomic nervous function. I bow to the onslaught of your propaganda and I will now completely validate it by offering a follow up question which dovetails to your talking point like a shaker wood joint. Now, please, here’s a bigger shovel and load me up with more of your lying tripe. [slight paraphrase by johnSwifty].
Oh, it was Danielle Pletka with Lou Dobb & Ben Affleck on Real Time in Oct. She sure got cranky when she was diagreed with. Newsbusters thought she rocked.
Going back to the Johnson years, his lawyers were advising him that the Vietnam war was ‘legal’. Balderdash. Unless one thinks that the “Gulf of Tonkin”, etc. was legal.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 23
I glanced at her AEI bio; looks like pure wingnut welfare. The only thing approaching a real job is having been a “senior staffer” for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee from ‘92-’02.
More evidence that in the pundit world you can be considered an “expert” for having ideas, even if they’re utterly unsuccessful.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 37
And we wonder why some thing 9/11 was an inside job?
Ick, I looked at the AEI site. Now I feel unclean.
An essay of biblical proportions. Worth a look just for the photoshopping. The rest is a very good gravy indeed.
Danielle Pletka is a neocon and I have seen her way tooooo many times– especially in the run-up and immediate aftermath of “Mission Accomplished”– you can find her mostly on cspan now and she still makes me heave.
too bad they’ve invited her back on the CM.
Stuck in mod…and I was urbane as a spilled milk on a May morning !!???
Someone mentioned to me the other day that lawyers are not producers. This was in response to my defense of trial lawyers defending and protecting the “little guy”. This lady went on some lengthy rant about how lawyers are what’s wrong with this country. I do not agree with most of what this woman had to tell me. But the perception IS out there.
One thing my lady friend did say that made me think. “Lawyers propose the laws. Lawyers enact the laws. And lawyers enforce the laws. What chance have we? All we have is common sense.”
OT: Balrog, was it you who did the YouTube underwater photos?
Lindy @
45
Twas I.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 29
I totally get your point. I’m on the fence wrt to how it should work, now I’m discerning two arguments. My worry is; what if nothing happens? What if they are allowed to go quietly into the night, as Pinochet was? What message does that send to BushCo’s of the future-you won’t be held to account? How will history judge us? Will the US ever regain any credibility?
1,365 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Patriots:
It seems to me that “we”, those of us who oppose this war and the economic class that has advanced it, are stuck analyzing and critiquing the wreckage to convince the bystanders that there has been an accident. The “justice system” in Iraq or in our own country, for that matter, does not work because it was never intended to work. The end strategy of this war was not victory but more and wider war. That is the insidious evil of this war and those who brought it to us…if we were to have won total control of Iraq in a few months with Chalabi in charge we would have had a platform to take out the rest of the independent states in the region. If, as has predictably happened, the conflict devolves into chaos, the war-makers win as long as they can keep throwing American soldiers into the chaos and keep the domestic population politically terrified.
More than 65% of the population of the country understands that the whole idea of the War in Iraq is a farce, we should be advancing against those few public players who are still propagating the delusion that the war can or ever could have been won. Stand behind Bill Richardson (as the previous post did) and advance arguments that expose the greater political and moral corruption of our system so that we don’t experience what happened at the end of the Civil War and Viet Nam…we left the whole rotten class of slavers and war-makers in power and didn’t honor the dead by strengthening the system but dishonored their sacrifice by enriching and strengthening the class that created the war.
Let’s not make the same mistake…today we have a moment in history to encourage an increasingly empowered populace to look at the real problem. Let’s try and forward arguments and examples that extend the critique of our condition to not only end the war but to disenfranchise the class that made the war and profits from it.
Maybe I am impatient with a topic like this because we are now confronted with the absolute insanity of condemning more young Americans to the hell of this war and thus extending the death and destruction of the innocents in the region…GOOD GOD, CAN ANYBODY BE SERIOUS ABOUT SENDING MORE OF OUR YOUNG BROTHERS AND SISTERS INTO THAT MESS, WE GOTTA THROW THE BASTARDS OUT AND LINE “EM UP AGAINST THE WALL AND… I am increasingly fearful that we in the progressive community are caught fighting battles already won at the expense of seizing the moment and “storming the gates” to bring REAL political and economic change out of the chaos the war-mongers perpetuate.
For me there is a moment everyday that the shadow of the 55,000 left behind in Viet Nam blocks out the sun…we are seriously speaking about sending more troops. That should be the fight we engage today, that should be the battle to which we lead the mass of people who spoke in November. Convincing folks that the justice system in Iraq is broken is a “faggot hassle” (Pachacutec get my back here).
KEEP THE FAITH, WE FIGHT FOR THE CHILDREN AND THE SOLDIERS…GOD IS WATCHIN’!!!
Balrog @ 46
You had fun with that. Have you found music you want yet? Everything I want to use for my stuff is beyond my financial reach at the moment (Other priorities *g*)…so I’m saddled with finding “a” right piece that is more affordable.
leinie at 26 — yes, it is a very, very painful read. And where it all goes from here? That’s a very tough question to answer…
johnSwifty — you’ve been freed up — sorry didn’t see you stuck in there. Refresh and you should be able to see your comment.
OK Kid, that’s why we need John Tester et al. Non lawyers with common sense to start proposing things.
I’m far more liberal then Mr. Tester is, so I don’t expect to agree with him on everything. However, that dose of common sense from a non lawyer will be a good thing.
And I’ll say this much - when the DHS comes knocking on my door cuz they’ve been monitoring my surfing habits and phone calls, and the administration doesn’t like what it sees, I’ll be damned glad to see a lawyer - if that right is still around. I can’t keep up with how fast this administration disappears them. Like the Bill of Rights is a fucking suggestion.
There is a ton of nobility in that profession - I’m thinking of the army guy whose career got ruined because he stood up against what was going on at Gitmo, can’t remember his name right now, and Fitz, who doesn’t strike me as a guy who does what he does because it is a game.
Lindy @ 49
I ordered a Chakra CD from Amazon that may be a good fit for the soundtrack. We shall see.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 44
What is “common sense?” Nothing more, less, or other than the cultural norm of the day. It’s a form of groupthink–certainly, the way perceptions like this woman’s work are little more than the mob mentality of the day.
Common sense can bite me. I’ll take informed analysis any day of the week.
Hey, OT. Anybody else having trouble with blogger this morning? I can’t get Digby or Gilliard to load. The withdrawal could be brutal.
Thanks for the long quote from the NYT–we are not subscribers and can’t read the whole thing. January cannot come soon enough: the Rethugs are really pushing their hardline right-wing agenda in this little interim period while it’s awfully quiet on the other side. Actually I’m dismayed (rather than finding it funny) that Russert is devoting a whole program to Gingrich. Gingrich has given at least two speeches lately calling for the shutting down of the blogs and curtailment of free speech. This is what treason really looks like, an attempt to remove the foundation of our law.
EvilDrPuma @ 55
My impression was she was tired of all the legal speak. There are good and not so good in any profession, especially the legal types. Perhaps we should all become lawyers.
Christy Hardin Smith @
52
What’d I do? If vilifying Gingrich is going to be a problem…I’m screwed. It is the primary grist for my mill ;-}
Beacon of freedom, that’s us.
Tiny typo before we Spotlight, paragraph–I have asked a jury,
carefuly => carefully
naschkatze @ 56
Gingrich is preaching to the right-wing extremist fringe. Nothing like he proposes is going to get through the 110th, and by the time the 111th rolls around he’ll have crawled back under his rock in disgrace.
Did Al Gore drop out of law school? Anyone.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 57
My first reaction is: all what legal speak? I’d say this country could do with some good legal speak, especially in areas like separation of powers, Congressional and judicial oversight, and Constitutional limits on the power of the executive.
As for everybody becoming lawyers, that’s not necessary, but it points in a good direction. The American public is in desperate need of some basic civics education. The ain’t-we-swell propaganda that passes for civics in schools that actually require the subject clearly hasn’t cut the mustard.
Yes, OK.
from wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore
leinie @ 56
Digby is loading for me. Try again.
I briefly had trouble with blogger THERE’S a shocker, because you know they never go down :o
I was trying to update mcegregious and couldn’t get it to load. Turned out to be a generic internet problem somehow related to my loading Real player. Why should that be related? I deleted it and internet connectivity returned. Meanwhile the wifi for the rest of the house’s computers worked fine, it was just the one laptop. Any computer geeks out there that give me a clue? Just curious.
NorskeFlamethrower @
49
Hear, hear!
The right wing propaganda machine is focussed so directly on the assumption that “losing” in Iraq will be the fault of the liberal ninnies…the attach machine is assailable with it’s originating premise. The conflict in Iraq cannot, now, be “won” in any way shape or form. And that is exclusively the fault of the administration and the rubber stamp congress that allowed it.
Attack the base premise. Attack it again and again, there is ample fact to support it and none to support the contrary: the Iraq war CANNOT be won! All other argument, after that premise is dismissed, is moot!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 61
Wikipedia says “St. Albans School where he ranked 25th (of 51) in his senior class. In preparation for his college applications, Gore scored a 1355 on his SAT (625 in verbal and 730 in math). Al Gore’s IQ scores, from tests administered at St. Albans in 1961 and 1964 (his freshman and senior years) respectively, have been recorded as 133 and 134.[9]
In 1965, Gore enrolled at Harvard College, the only university to which he applied. His roommate (in Dunster House) was actor Tommy Lee Jones. He scored in the lower fifth of the class for two years in a row [9] and, after finding himself bored with his classes in his declared English major, Gore switched majors and worked hard in his government courses and graduated from Harvard in June 1969 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in government. [9] After returning from the military he took religious studies courses at Vanderbilt University and then entered its Law School. He left Vanderbilt without a degree to run for Congress in 1976.”
So I guess he did.
angie @ 63
Snap!
Legal speak? Like when President Clinton, a lawyer, stated he ‘did not have sex with that woman’. If it quacks like a duck, it could very well be a duck. Legal speak? Like the OJ trial. I could go on forever. But I am not so inclined.
Laws and lawyers are woman and man made. They are not infallible.
Sen. Kyl live w/ Blitzers Beard on CNN is still hoping to “achieve some semblance of victory in Iraq”
I like Gore and Clark and Edwards and Feingold and Arianna and CHS and Hamsher and…
twolf1 @ 69
m’kay– just another dullard.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 68
Nobody claimed they were. Looking back at the last six years of BushCo laws and lawyers (far better and more pervasive examples of the abuse of law than the trivialities of the 1990s), that should be self-evident. However, as a rule of thumb, I’m much more likely to trust law in concept than “common sense.”
twolf1 @ 69
Statements like that are a waste of oxygen.
Dec. 15, 1791:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/today/dec15.html
Bill of Rights ratified.
——-
Just an aside: Maybe the big two won’t be impeached, but I’d love for Conyers/Leahy to tag-team on Gonzo.
Paraphrasing punaise about Joey2Face:
“My contempt for Alberto Gonzales knows no bounds.”…”will never subside” …is only surpassed by the scorn and derision I employ.
The single human being (using the term very loosely) most responsible for dismantling the rule of law here. No wonder Iraq is a mirror image.
HST would produce a screed titled “Fear and Loathing at DoJ.”
EvilDrPuma @ 74
True, but they could be useful, too. Lieberman has suffered from having his words recorded and used against him. In 2008, there will be another referendum on the congress and government at large and it will be important to have noted, between now and then, just who participates in promulgating the lies.
Remember these people. Make it known who they are. Make their words easily accessible, searchable and retrievable so that there will be no doubt who ran with the pack of lemmings towards the cliff when America so desperately needs real leaders to stand in the wake and scream, “HALT! There’s a fucking cliff over there and we’re all headed off it!”
Let them waste their oxygen with false rhetoric, but capture their words and store them for the future.
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/iraq
NorskeFlamethrower @49
Kucinich says, “No more money - GET OUT NOW “. 2008 is a lot of deaths away - The only thing that will make a difference in Iraq is the anouncement that America is coming home. That we are going to get out of their streets, their courts and their oil. The only way to make that happen to to take it out of bush’s hands by cutting off the money. All the dems know it but only Kucinich has the balls to say it. Everything else is hot air. It doesn’t matter who you want in ‘08. All this masticating over obama/clinton/edwards and please-jesus Gore is the just bloggers playing the pundit game while Iraq is burning NOW. It doesn’t matter who you want for president in ‘08. An army of bloggers couldn’t beat put Lamont in the senate, but they did a lot to make the dems respect his position and shift the debate to how and when do we get out.
If that same effort was put behind Kucinich now, then, maybe, the democratic congress would start to debate the only power they have, paying for this war.
Brief troop surge OK in Iraq, Reid says
angie @ 77
Nick Robertson reported 33 bullet riddled bodies found “strewn across baghdad” today.
twolf1 @ 79
caca.
I am sorry I did not give proper attribution to you, john in california, last eve.
Kucinich speaks the truth.
new thread
johnSwifty @ 65
Yes, the people who “lost” Iraq are the people who put us in this no-win situation in the first place.
OK– be very prepared, new thread is about Ms. Hill!
johnSwifty @ 76
Keeping account should be doable. Maybe something as simple as a spreadsheet w/ a timeline on the left and a column for every congressperson (and pundit?). In each box would be references to whatever they said that week w.r.t. Iraq. This could be extended back to the start of this insanity (9/11). Say, One person or a small group of people take responsibility for their congressperson, then regularly the columns are meshed. The master would reside online. I know Wiki is the obvious vehicle but takes that takes some expertise. Everybody knows how to use a spreadsheet.
1,365 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen John in California:
Peace brother…I’m a University of California (Irvine) grad. I agree with you about Congressman K. and his patriotic announcement to keep the war a central issue in the comin’ Presidential tournament. I, however, would have liked to see a few heavy hitters like Ted Kennedy, Feingold and Durbin stand up for ‘im even without endorsin’ ‘im. I think that Kucinich does the job as long as he isn’t isolated by the progressive “establishment” and allowed to become a caricature.
Let’s all get on the same page…as long as this war is opposed publicly by all serious politicians and a significant majority of the population, no candidate for the Presidency can win if they voted for the enabling resolution or doesn’t denounce their support prior to the primaries. That is, no pro-war candidate can win unless BOTH candidates left after the primaries are pro-war.
That’s why we must focus our attention on killing the troop expansion right now…no matter what the rationale is for expansion, like Harry Reid’s qualification that it’s only to prepare for withdrawal (now that’s another rhetorical inanity, ain’t it??!!), we can not allow for any action that creates more death.
The path is clear, our legitimacy as members of the civilized human community is at stake here…NO MORE TROOPS!!! Keep the debate on withdrawal and holding the folks who brought us this catastrophe to account.
KEEP THE FAITH, THE SOUL YOU SAVE MAY BE YOUR OWN!!!
egregious @ 60
The typo is still there.
One would think that a professional would refuse to prosecute a case in such circumstances. Oh … silly me I forgot they are lawyers. So much for professional ethics.
PeteCO @
48
The la