Like a lot of people, I didn't have high hopes for the Baker boys' Iraq Study Group. Nearly a month before the report was released, I wrote:
The Baker commission's only reason for existence is to provide a formal channel for telling the President that there's no pony in Iraq -- that failure/defeat is not only an option, it's basically the only one left. The question is whether he'll listen even now.
We pretty much know by now that Dubya didn't listen, as McClatchy News reported on Thursday:
President Bush is weighing whether to make a deeper American commitment in Iraq despite growing public unhappiness with the war, according to senior U.S. officials and former officials familiar with Bush's high-level review.
. . . The president signaled Wednesday that neither the study group's pessimistic assessment nor the bleak situation in Iraq nor the results of the midterm elections have shaken his belief that victory in Iraq is possible.
"We're not going to give up," said Bush, who plans to announce his new strategy early next year
As disheartening as this news was, though, even worse was the explanation later in the same story:
Bush appears to have been emboldened by criticism of its proposals as defeatist by members of the Republican Party's conservative wing and their allies on the Internet, the radio and cable TV.
Lots of progressive bloggers have cited this passage, most notably The Editors (who saw that "embolden" apparently now means "To be terrified that Rush Limbaugh, Jonah Goldberg and Glenn Reynolds will call you a pussy"), but I don't know if any recognized it for what it really was: a statement of total defeat for our side of the blogosphere.
I mean, here we are, in the wake of a huge victory in the November elections, supposedly riding a progressive wave -- where was our voice, our message, keeping the pressure on so that Dubya had no choice but to make concessions to reality in Iraq?
My fear is that we succumbed to a bit of overconfidence, relaxing into our natural habits of incoherent lack of message discipline herd-of-cats diversity in our opinions and communicating through clever snark rather than unambiguous talking points.
So it's good to see (via Digby) this Hotline report today:
In New Hampshire this a.m., Gov. Bill Richardson (D-NM) will confront Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) on Iraq.
The White House is leaning towards adopting McCain's proposal to add tens of thousands of combat troops to U.S. forces in Baghdad in a final effort to secure the city.
Here's what Richardson says:
“The leading advocate for escalating the war is Senator John McCain. I have served with John in Congress and I respect him. But John McCain is wrong, dead wrong to think that we can solve Iraq’s political crisis through military escalation.”
That's the kind of "we're right, they're wrong and here's why" messaging we need to express persistently if we're going to counter the neocon-friendly Wurlitzer and create some real change in our country's Iraq policy. We need to recognize that on this issue, our opinions represent the "sensible center" of American politics, and so we should state them clearly:
- This country demanded a change in policy on Iraq in the November elections -- a new policy that stops sacrificing American solders' lives to false promises of military victory.
- By ignoring this demand, President Bush isn't just betraying the trust of the American people who elected him, and of the troops who volunteered to serve; he's making himself a laughingstock throughout the world as someone who is too weak and cowardly to face reality.
- Public figures like John McCain and Joe Lieberman who call for more troops do not care about what is best for Iraq; they are just pandering politically so they can call others "defeatists" -- when in fact it is the President's policies (which they endorsed) that are leading us to defeat in Iraq.
- Pundits who praise McCain, Lieberman, and the "bipartisan consensus" sought by the Baker-Hamilton commission are spitting in the face of the "sensible center" of the American electorate, which has demanded change.
As we do this, let's stop sneering about "St. John" and who's "serious," and referring to ourselves derisively as "dirty fucking hippies." It's fun, but the sarcastic message isn't getting through, and people are dying. Let's just state the facts as they really are, and hammer them home until the powers that be have no choice but to listen.
We're not hippies; we're the center. They need to know that.
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If they escalate the war, do they recommend a draft too?
Send the twins and the Clinton kid to Iraq. Then see what happens.
Fitz!
Swopa!
I heard Thomas Ricks on Hardball say all this noise about escalation is just posturing. The JCS and the majority of Congress don’t want to send more troops, therefore, in the future, the WH can say “we wanted to send more troops and you wouldn’t let us.” Therefore, it’s all your fault Iraq is a failure.
To those who choose to join the military, with full knowledge that they will in all likelihood be sent to Iraq, I can no longer offer sympathy. What’s going on in Iraq does not involve patriotism.
arlia @ 4
That’s exactly what we need to expose. American soldiers are dying, and Dubya, McCain, and Lieberman are giving us empty posturing.
That’s not leadership; it’s bordering on treason.
arlia at 2:19 pm, you may be correct. I think Charlie Rangell showed Dems how to inoculate themselves on this, call for a draft. That’s what scares the
shit out ofpants off the WH. They don’t want to admit that their all-volunteer army doesn’t have enough troops for a world widedominationpolice force.No one wants a draft less than the deferment boys, Bush/Cheney/Rove. They knew how protests against Vietnam increased after the deferments were dropped.
For years Bush has hoodwinked the nation that he really takes the threat of terrorism seriously, but he never called for reinstating the draft.
Thanks Swopa, as always.
No, don’t call for a draft, they might just do it and blame it on us.
They really really really don’t want to admit they were wrong. And by they I don’t just mean Bush, I mean Tom Friedman and the rest of the conveentional wisdom machine.
but I don’t know if any recognized it for what it really was: a statement of total defeat for our side of the blogosphere.
You’re kidding, right? Or you thought these nutcases would be persuaded by reason for a change?
Swopa, I’ve signed on for a generational battle, not a Gen XYZ overnighter….
And slap down “we can’t leave or there will be chaos,” with “Bush chose to put us in a no-win situation where the results will be bad for America whether we stay or go.”
No one should be allowed to say “we have to stay or things will fall apart” without being forced to explain how staying will keep things from falling apart. They’re falling apart now, if all we accomplish is to make them fall apart more slowly, at the steady cost of American lives and $8 billion a month, that’s not an argument for staying.
Ed*ard Teller @ 9
Well, okay, “total defeat” in this skirmish, certainly not the larger war. :)
I do genuinely think our side hasn’t done a good job of keeping the pressure on Bush the last few weeks. Obviously Dubya doesn’t need much coaxing to stay the course, but we’ve made it too easy for him.
We need to get Steve Gilliard on The NewsHour and NPR explaining about Dien Bein Phu and the extreme danger American troops face.
Redshift at 2:33 pm
Bullseye.
Oklahoma kiddo @
5
I served during the Vietnam War, though didn’t see combat. When I got out, I helped the AFSC (American Friends’ Service Committee) smuggle draft dodgers who were out on bail to get into Canada without crossing the border in a normal way. Long story.
But, even as I helped young men whose conscience kept them from going into the military, I also supported young men who felt they could best serve the country through military duty. Currently, there are five of my ex-students or kids I’ve coached attending the US military academies, and I’ll support them any way I can - especially if they want to bail out.
Is Joe Lieberman’s son serving in Iraq? Of course not.
our soldiers are not a free Iraqi police force, they are not a poltical branch of the Iraqi government, they are not policitioians
they arte not escorts, they are not painters of schools
our soldiers COMPLETED THEIR MISSIONS, they deposed saddam, they did an incredible, efficient job and their performance was nothing short of stunning
IT’S TIME TO REWARD OUR SOLDIERS FOR THEIR COMPLETED MISSION
congress needs to RESCIND war powers granted to this president, they need to RESCIND “stop loss” draft
they need to INSIST the president PROPOSE THE METHOD HE INTENDS ON USING TO KEEP THE MILITARY STAFFED
that’s RIGHT, they need to ASK HIM POINT BLANK HOW HE PLANS ON KEEPING THE MILITARY STAFFED
they need to point out, DEFENCE READYNESS IS AT DANGEROUSLY LEVELS
they need to MAKE the president actually start “decidering”
Redshift @ 10
Amen. The shorter version, as I alluded to above, is that President Bush’s policies are leading us to defeat.
How can anyone look at the last three and a half years and come to any different conclusion?
And if you add another 20,000 troops just for the sake of not admitting defeat — when even our military commanders say they won’t help — that’s just a recipe for a a worse defeat.
That’s my preferred talking point: “McCain and Lieberman are calling for an even worse defeat.”
Ed*ard Teller @ 14
My thoughts are to advise anyone against joining the military now. I cannot see how fighting in Iraq serves this, or any country.
the soldiers that have enlisted with full knowledge they were going to Iraq, and that there was a stop loss program, I have no sympathy either
however, those that enlisted thinking we were defending for 9/11, thinking they were going to afghanistan, or believing saddam had something to do with al qaeda, for these soldiers, our heartfelt concern
If I were contemplating joining the military today there are three things I could not overcome. Getting killed for nothing. Killing someone who may not deserve killing, and serving this so-called Commander in Chief.
Right on the mark, Swopa. I also note this comment:
arlia @4
I heard that interview; I don’t know that it’s all posturing, but there do seem to be clear signs that some in the Pentagon are resisting; not saying “no” but saying “show us an achievable and definable mission.” That view is in the story you linked to:
So if there is still some leverage here, it is in challenging the Administration to explain exactly what the extra troops can/will accomplish and how, because there probably is no clear answer.
nolies32fouettes says:
December 16th, 2006 at 2:12 pm *
still writing for the college paper?
perris @
19
So you’d advise Jenna and not Jenna not to go?
This is a fairly nutty thread. Most young kids going into the military don’t know much about what is happening in Iraq or Afghanistan or the political situation in the US, their state or their home town. Not many of them want to stomp “ragheads.” Most want money and technical training.
Does this mean I shouldn’t wear a “Dirty Fucking Hippie and Proud Of It!!!” button?
-ck- @ 24
Only if you really are a hippie. Wearing one ironically is now against the rules.
Ed*ard Teller @
9
Amen. After reading this posting, I also took exception to the “total defeat” notion, but then happily noted you said everything succinctly, Edward Teller (again! you’re good at that).
But I also don’t think we have total defeat in a “skirmish” either.
I’m confused about this comment, Swopa. To whom are you referring when you talk about “our side”? From what you wrote in the main thread posting, it seems you mean “the progressive blogosphere.” If that’s what you mean, it doesn’t seem to me that you and I are reading the same websites.
I’ve seen no shortage whatsoever of hard-hitting postings by the main blogs on what a sham this whole post-ISG process is. These days, Atrios, for example, seems to post about virtually nothing else. Everytime I look at the prime real estate at Huffington Post, for example, I see nothing but pictures of devastation and mayhem in Iraq — and headline articles pointing out the travesty which the current “national conversation” represents.
Folks are blogging all over the place about Bush’s petulance, stubbornness, intransigence.
I’m not sure what you’re expecting. You didn’t exactly expect the administration to listen to US, did you?
Nevertheless, I believe we still have an impact, an important one. In addition to the fact that more and more folks are turning to alternative media such as the blogs to get something other than spoon-fed corporate crap, the corporate spinmeisters themselves have now — finally! — accepted the narrative that this “war” (really an occupation) is an utter and total sham of a travesty of a fiasco of a con job.
Junior is a stubborn fucking brat who is still listening to that megalomaniacal Heart of Darkness, a.k.a. Cheney. Everybody knows it now. The public polls on the war get worse by the day. Not even in Vietnam have we seen such public recognition of a clusterfuck. And the presently constituted Republican Party is being dismissed further every day — Kos had a great piece yesterday about how it’s not just Iraq that has ever growing segments of the public repudiating the Republican Party, but virtually all of their so-called “policies.”
Now, that doesn’t mean the administation gives a flying fuck about what the public thinks.
But I’m curious as to what you think would constitute “our side’s” success — at the present moment — given the admin’s determination to ignore what the whole country wants.
What should we be doing?
I hope you don’t think that we shouldn’t take time to celebrate the smaller victories along the way. If we do absolutely nothing on all our blogs but post urgently and earnestly about Iraq, then I think that would be the best way to ensure complete burn-out on the part of folks who are in this for the long haul (one of whom, who does marvelous work, is YOU — please don’t construe my disagreement as being dismissive of any of your efforts, all of which I heartily applaud). I just don’t want to lose sight of some realism here.
But we SHOULD talk about this. What comes next if the administration continues to ignore the will of the people? (As I believe they will do…)
The moral problem with Bush weighing whether to make a deeper commitment to Iraq, is his ‘deeper commitment’ involves other people’s children.
I agree. IMHO, the “all-volunteer” Army is kind of an inverse deferment policy. It allows the most disenfranchised to “volunteer” to do the dirty, dangerous work that the upper tax brackets don’t want. If the burden for “occupying” Iraq were equally shared among all tax brackets, I think the GOP would have a very different position.
scarecrow @ 21
scarecrow –
Did you see the news that there are plenty of active-duty troops signing a “GET OUT NOW” document to be presented to Congress in mid-January. They are preceding under the legal cover of a law which gives them whistleblower protection for expressing their wants/needs to Congress.
Not that I think the WH gives a damn about what they will have to say. Just wanted to add to your list of sources of resistance from within the military to include brave active duty servicemen and -women who are now coming forward.
scarecrow @ 21
Yes, that’s precisely it — they want to use more troops as code for “We want to win and you don’t.”
That can be flipped by re-implementing the Powell Doctrine; you want to commit troops, you need to lay out a clearly defined mission and measurable proof of success.
Without that, you’re just sticking your hand further into the meat grinder, and producing an even worse defeat.
What the hell!
My comment #26 mysteriously got bolded without any input from me. All I did was highlight Swopa’s quote and hit the “quote” button.
I tracked down the rogue code which showed up right in the center of that quote, and removed it. If it’s showing up on your monitor, please refresh!
The simple matter of it is: more American troops (and where do they come from exactly) means more killing. This in NOT a difficult concept. Damn.
“My fear is that we succumbed to a bit of overconfidence, relaxing into our natural habits of incoherent lack of message discipline herd-of-cats diversity in our opinions and communicating through clever snark rather than unambiguous talking points.”
Well said, Swopa, this is exactly what Progressives need to hear. Not everyone can be John Stewart and all this smug, smart-ass sniping does little to advance an agenda. It is going to take a lot of hard work and staying on message to get any reform done. Learn from the pig-right and advance a simple coherent message. The Decider screwed up big time.. say it loud and say it often.
Who is the “we” in this post? My impression of it is blaming pretty much everyone who used their vote to express a need for change on the war. Somehow “we” have failed here. I’m sick to death of blame from the right for just about anything and everything under the sun. I don’t need it from the left…or, excuse me, the imaginary “center.” Truly, I’m beginning to shut down when it comes to the major political blogs. You turn out your time and your money to large degree to push through the elections with nagging and chastising from these blogs all the way then when it’s over “we” still fucked up and somehow it’s rational to blame “us” for a lack of a 180 degree change in foreign policy attitude by a presidency that’s NEVER heeded the will of any part of the electorate (just ask the evangelicals about that) and it’s rational to blame “us” for not affecting the same overnight change in how big media has handled Bush since 1999. Please.
Well then. What is the message?
Ed*ard Teller @
23
I keep thinking about that part in Fahrenheit 911 where the kids are standing around talking and one says “I wish there was a way I could go to college without enlisting.” I believe they were black and/or lower working class, and they weren’t seeing a lot of options. I hope we won’t carry hostility toward the soldiers - they didn’t get us into this and they aren’t keeping us stuck there. It’s Bush and his administration who deserve the hostility.
Mrs. K8 @ 31
…and here I thought…well, I’ll be, we really have been emboldened.
There was a time we didn’t have an Iraq war. And we did fine.
Swopa, thanks, as you know, I could not agree more with you about the need for Dems to annunciate clearly the PRINCIPLES of the Powell Doctrine.
Ambassador Joe Wilson got even more specific in his comments at FDL about it.
No Easy Calls on Iraq
Joe Wilson says:
December 4th, 2006 at 11:22 am *
Bold is mine.
Mrs. K8 @ 26
That’s exactly what I’m referring to when I say the sarcastic “dirty fucking hippie” approach hasn’t worked.
A more straightforward approach would try to create more of an echo chamber around the fact that Bush is spitting in the face of the broad center of the American electorate, every single day. So are McCain and Lieberman, and the DC pundit elite.
There are a lot of variations in how the point can be made, but the recurring theme should be “spitting in the face of the American people.” If that was the shorthand phrase everyone recognized from blog repetition instead of “dirty fucking hippie,” our pressure on Bush et al. would be more effective.
gabriel_is @ 34
gabriel –
I understand your discouragement, but I do encourage you to stay connected with blogs — although if you’re hearing a lot of scolding at the sites you read, move on to other sites!
Did you note the examples I gave in comment #26? In addition to Firedoglake, those two examples are other places where the focus remains squarely on the monsters (both in the administration, and in the ennabling machine known as “punditry”) who are engaged in full-on continued war-mongering.
Oklahoma kiddo @
32
OKKiddo,
The American military machine has killed at least 20 million people since AFTER WWII. We’ve disabled at least that many more. Bill Clinton was responsible for the premature deaths of a half million Iraqis, mostly women and young kids. George Bush is so incompetent that even after unleashing the dogs of warhell, he can only outdo Clnton by 40%.
We’ve never gotten ourselves into a position this alarming that I can remember. But blaming poor minority kids with awful educations, home lifes and future prospects - even blaming them a teensy bit -for filling the ranks of our military for what our leaders force the military to do is beyond dense.
I’ll be back later when there’s more adult supervision here….
Perhaps it is time to figure out what so called progressives want when it comes to the Iraq war.
Swopa @ 40
Aha! So you want different framing. OK, maybe it will make a difference. Although it’s true that most bloggers highlight the fact that it’s an astonishingly large preponderance of the public who hate this war, and that the administration doesn’t give a hoot about that, maybe framing it differently can do…something.
gabriel_is @ 34
“We” in this case means the large progressive blogs (and even that is an overgeneralization, since I obviously haven’t read every post on every blog). I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
I believe the message to be that in the twenty five years since the reagan revolution we have seen America sink to an unprecedented low. No real jobs, no real money- just whatever credit one can scrape together. An abused military with no money for essentials but buckets of cash for the crony war industries. An astounding national debt, and most of all, an idiot in the White House with apsychotic Svengali making all the decisions. The message is The Republicans fucked up!
Mrs. K8 — yes I saw the headlines of the troop story, but haven’t read/seen the fully stories yet. There is resistance all over the country, and I agree with you that many bloggers have been expressing that. But Swopa is making a different point: whatever efforts we’re making, they have not been enough to force this regime to stop what it’s doing and seriously consider a different path. That is what I believe Swopa means by his use of the term “defeat.”So you’re both right, as I see it.
It wasn’t enough to elect Democratic majorities; it wasn’t enough to get the country to say in polls that 70 to 75 percent of them opposed Bush handling of the war; it’s not enough to get more pundits and more reporters and more news anchors asking tougher questions and doing more critical stories. All of those “good” things are indeed happening, but the Bush/Cheney regime continues to do what they’re doing and planning to do more.
We have to ask ourselves what this means, because virtually every other Administration would be revising course; this one isn’t. Why?
IMHO, they won’t stop until they’re forced out of office. So while I agree with Swopa completely that bloggers need to work harder to keep all of those other elements of pressure on, my view is that the goal is not to get Bush/Cheney to change their policies or change their minds, because that probably won’t happen. Cheney has been set in his world view for 40 years. Bush is a true believer, who cannot abandon his core beliefs. The goal, therefore, should be to create the conditions, as fast as we can, in which the country sees we need to force this regime out of office.
Personally, I think that when Bush comes asking for more money for Iraq, they should say…
Your party has 205 members in the House. You need 13 Democrats to join them. We’ll make sure those 13 Democrats are there to vote for more money — all you have to do is convince every Republican in the House to vote for the bill.
Oh, and the Dems need to make the war PAYGO…
Last time I checked we haven’t a draft. No one is forced to join the military.
Here is an AEI Power Point report in pdf format that sounds like Bush’s plan for “success”. (You might have to flip back to the first page.) These people are lunatics.
A good article in the Asia Times link
explains that
The Asia Times article interprets the Baker report as keeping with the program of maintaining a US footprint in the ME, threatening the Malaki govt with a coup, if necessary, and moving onto Iran.
So did people think that because Democrats won the house and senate (and before they’ve even been sworn in, no less) Bushco and its minions in the MSM would suddenly roll over and cry “uncle”? And because they haven’t it’s a “failure” on the part of the very small proportion of the electorate who hang out on political blogs?
Newsflash-most people have never heard of FDL, Kos, or Hullaballoo. Joe six-pack in his pick-up doesn’t log on to Aravosis to get the latest DC buzz. This is not intended as criticism of these blogs,I think what is being acheived in holding the media accountable is truly remarkable, but influencing administration policy is something entirely different, especially with the current occupants. Maybe a sense of perspective is in order?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
Economic neccesities and the faint hope for an education “force” many young people to join the military.
When the left blogosphere has the courage to take on the Israel-Palestine struggle in ways which are informed, unafraid of retribution and solicit involvement of Israeli and Palestinian citizens with workable solutions, we will begin breaking on through to the other side. There are so many other social injustice issues in the Middle East, Africa, and the rest of the world, but as long as we fail to have the courage, knowledge and organization to deal openly with that central conundrum, we can’t succeed in the long run.
Swopa @ 40
a theme would be fine, but how can we direct it… how can we possibly press the Bush admin…
the last election was pressure, but after those results were tabulated, Rove has decided even that was “close”
BushCo does not listen to us, we have no Rushing Wurlitzer, so how can what we say to one another in the progressive blogs put pressure on Bush?
Our hippies, our ponies, our cookie recipes are for our own enjoyment… but I’m open letter writing, calls to congress, spotlighting to journalists… I talk with neighbors, and folks looking over the tabloids at the grocery store… but pressure on the Bush administration?
examples please
Swopa –
Maybe you could make things a little clearer if you gave several examples of what you are talking about here.
Not to “call out” blog authors, but to make concrete suggestions on what to do better — based on real actual examples of blog writing.
I just have a feeling we must be reading different sites, which would not be surprising, as there are so many now.
BTW — I have never, ever thought of Atrios’ phrase “dirty fucking hippie” as being anything other than an acid rebuke of the pundits. It is always used in the context of “three quarters of the American people, also known as ‘dirty fucking hippies’ hate this war.”
I have a hard time believing that anybody in the mainstream press or teevee news business would somehow miss his point.
Are you saying sarcasm itself is counter-productive? Just trying to understand your thinking here.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 43
I want an end to wasting lives and pissing away money that could be spent on energy independence and universal healthcare. Pretty simple.
p.lukasiak @ 48
Not just paygo, but perhaps link all the emergency supplemental appropriations to tax increases for those who benefitted most from the Bush tax cuts.
PeteCO @ 51
It’s not a direct influence — but because people in the MSM and in Washington, D.C. do follow them, the large blogs have shown an ability to help shape the public narrative at times.
I’m just saying they could be doing a better job right now on Iraq.
Ed*ard Teller @ 42
Am I missing something here? I am not clear on the “blaming poor… etc.” part. It must surely be something I’m not getting. It has to be that my perceptions are off on what you’re telling me.
I think one of the frustrations is that we, the blogs, haven’t broken out as far as educating the American public is concerned. My barber, a lifelong Democrat, is against the war, but as she told me, “if they all want to kill each other, let them.”
The fact is most Sunni and Shia don’t want to kill each other. There’s been a lot of intermarriage in Iraq and they all live all over the country. This is why every regional expert told Bush NOT to invade. The invasion has seriously weakened the moderates and dramatically strengthened Sunni supremacists, such as Osama. Now, ordinary Iraqis have to pay
tributeprotection money to these supremacy groups. That’s one narrative that isn’t getting out, because ofrearranging deck chairs, 20,000 or 35,000 “surge”delusionsfantasies that will bring everlasting VICTORY in the GWOT.Sorry to post these thoughts and then run before the discussion develops further, but I have to go to physical therapy.
I’ll be back to follow the development of ideas here as soon as possible!
Thanks Swopa, and other Firepups, for the serious wrestling with these problems we face.
Bush two weeks ago, from the POV of ISG fans like Broder:
He would not listen, he did not know how;
perhaps he’ll listen now.
But even Broder should have now gotten the memo:
He would not listen, he’s not listening still;
perhaps he never will.
With apologies to Don McLean, of course.
Jay @ 52
Sorry, I don’t buy that. We are after all, talking life or death. Are we not?
Mrs. K8 @ 55
It is hard to believe, but I think they have. Hence my suggestion that if we want to increase our effectiveness, we need to communicate more straightforwardly on this issue.
I have nothing against sarcasm in general. I’m actually quite in favor of it most of the time, as anyone who knows me could attest.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 63
But if you live in Bumfuck, Colorado, out on the plains, what are your options? It’s economic conscription. You don’t see the squeaky-clean white suburban kids enlisting, mummy & daddy remortgaged the house to send them to college.
PeteCO @ 56
That’s right. We spend $8,000,000,000 a month on the Iraq war. That’s a lot of money and a lot of blood.
Swopa @ 64
OK, I’m not out the door yet, so let me just toss this one question back at ya quickly –
Do you really think that the mainstream corporate press look to Atrios for cues as to what the American public thinks? Can they not read the recent polls? Do they not hear representatives, especially Republicans (since they determined to ignore Democrats), stating that their offices are hearing from a huge cross-section of their constituents demanding an end to this mess?
[Why just today I heard that Republican senators/reps will be going to Syria and maybe Iran in an end run around the WH for the sake of diplomacy, not just Dems.]
I don’t think that Atrios has that kind of power, much as I love him.
“But John McCain is wrong, dead wrong to think that we can solve Iraq’s political crisis through military escalation”
Is a great start. May I suggest amending it to:
I respect his age and wisdom. In his 72 years he’s seen a lot. But John Sidney McCain is wrong, dead wrong to think that we can solve Iraq’s political crisis through military escalation.”
If their gonna do that Barack Hussein Obama s**t, we need to respond. Every mention of McCain should include his age and middle name. 72 year old senator John Sidney McCain. The 72 year old senator said today…blah blah blah.
I don’t mean to be age-ist, but we need to reinforce that he is not,in fact, a maverick, but is, in fact, an out-of-touch old fart who is re-fighting the war of his youth. Turn him into freakin’ Admiral Stockdale.
Here is an AEI Power Point report in pdf format that sounds like Bush’s plan for “success”. (You might have to flip back to the first page.) These people are lunatics.
I tried reading it. When I got to the “disarm Shia militias” part, I realized exactly how insane the whole thing was…
If you consider how difficult it would be to get OUR gun nuts to disarm, just imagine the kind of resistance you’re gonna see in Baghdad when they try and take people’s weapons away….
One should point out the obvious. 20K more troops is only about a 15% increase in strength. This is not GO BIG, but GO MEDIOCRE. Even the Kissinger suggestion of 40K is still too small to make any difference. If you are going to increase troop strength, then really do it, and stop pussy footing around. To be truly effective, you need to at least DOUBLE the number of troops, or as Juan Cole suggests more like 500,000 troops. Since neither of these are possible, it is time to withdraw, otherwise we are needlessly wasting more of our troops, to say nothing of spoiling Christmas with their families (talk about a War on Christmas). Something W would not do, while he delays his decision because he has to light the White House Christmas Tree, watch a Willy Wonka play, go to the Kennedy Center Honors, and finally there is all that brush to clear in Crawford. He is risking these troops lives so he can save face for the pull out which is going to happen.
There is no reasoning with a psychopath..use the shovel of corruption to dig the sand from under his feet. Make joe-sixpack demand impeachment.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 63
Tonight when you’re watching TV maybe one of those Army recruiting ads will appear with a young black womaen imploring her off camera mother to let her join the military because she needs an education.. watch it closely because it’s good old fashioned hard sell
cleter @ 68
That’s the best suggestion I’ve seen in a while. St. John should henceforth be 72 year old John Sidney McCain.
500k troops is a lot. Maybe we could manufacture some kind of clone army. That worked well for the Galactic Republic.
@69,
yes. exactly. but when I read the presentation I could easily imagine Bush finding it greatly to his liking.
The kids in my rural, and yes poor little town, have no illusions about joining the military today. They simply don’t do it.
cleter @ 74
I’ll bet the idiot child saw that movie
I don’t think Bush is susceptible to reason of any kind.
From ABC News:
Two whole more years of get’n to be a War President!
Two more years of incredible Halliburton profits!
Bush, it would appear, has an…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bnAXb6gmbOc
Uncontrollable Surge
I think Army ads should contain a disclaimer, on the screen, read by the same guy who reads the financing fine print on car ads. It should say:
Army service may require you to be killed or maimed. Educational opportunities may vary.
a different interpretation of the ISG report
Jay @ 72
I’ve seen it. And that’s just what it is. “Hard sell”. This ad is despicable. And I resent it deeply.
The Ten Commandments of Iraq (Inspired by MLK Jr.)
And the most important of all
Free Josh Wolf
We have a draft. It is called the National Guard. These people volunteered to help their communities in times of need, like natural distasters, not the man made one in Iraq.
So I do not buy it that they all volunteered. Most Guardsmens had no idea what they were getting into when they signed up.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 76
Is that a recent (last two to three years) development?
john in sacramento @ 82
Not bad. Not bad at all.