(Today we're joined by SEIU President Andy Stern, author of A Country That Works, in the comments. Please stop by and welcome him -- JH)
Good afternoon. This is Jordan Barab. I'll be hosting today's FDL Book Salon. It's a pleasure to spend this Sunday with Firedoglake readers and particularly with the author of A Country That Works, Andy Stern, discussing one of the most interesting and challenging books I've read in a long time. Of course, for me, that's not saying much. As the main blogger at Confined Space , I rarely have time to read real books. So when Jane asked me to host this Book Salon, I was happy to be forced to read an entire book, particularly this one.
Most Americans had probably never heard of Andy Stern, President of the Service Employees International Union, until he threatened to break up the AFL-CIO, the federation of American unions that everyone has heard of. And, as Andy admits in his book, A Country That Works: Getting America Back on Track , the press loves stories full of conflict, strong and heroic personalities fighting the good fight, drama, betrayal, tragedy, promise, hope. Even the blogosphere, generally favorable to labor (while ignoring all but the biggest labor issues), began to pay attention. Josh Marshall's TPM Cafe even launched a "House of Labor" section.
The media portrayed the split as a battle between the young dynamic Andy Stern, impatient with labor's fading numbers and influence, and the old fogies led by John Sweeney, who were happy to be lords over all they could see, but weren't paying sufficient attention to the fact that their domains (and influence) were rapidly shrinking into irrelevance. It was portrayed as a fight between those who thought priority should be given to organizing over those who thought priority should be given to politics. Of course, in reality, it wasn't anything that simple.
Despite all of the media attention throughout the summer of '95, once Stern led the Service Employees International Union out of the AFL-CIO, along with the Teamsters, United Food and Commercial Workers, UNITE-HERE, the Farmworkers, and the Laborers to form Change To Win (along with the Carpenters who had left the federation previously), interest generally died. Even the TPM Cafe's House of Labor faded away.
Personally, although Andy's organizing programs were quite exciting, I wasn't completely sure what I thought of his crusade to save the labor movement by dividing it. I had first med Andy Stern in the late 1970's when I was organizing a labor-sponsored anti-nuclear demonstration in Harrisburg, PA following the Three Mile Island near-disaster. Even then, as President of the Pennsylvania Social Service Employees Union, an SEIU affiliate in Harrisburg, he was pushing the labor envelope by providing major support for our efforts, including an occasional couch to sleep on. Opposing nuclear power was a rather brave stand for a labor leader. The building trades unions were fiercely pro-nuclear and not afraid to demonstrate that to unions like PSSU who strayed from the line. I followed Andy's move to head SEIU's organizing department in Washington DC under then-SEIU President John Sweeney, and then is rise to the top of the union when Sweeney took over the AFL-CIO in 1995.
At that time, I was running AFSCME's health and safety department and although I was quite supportive of Andy's laser-like focus on organizing above all, I was quite upset when he dismantled SEIU's health and safety department, then one of the largest and most dynamic in the labor movement. I thought then, as I still do now, that there are few issues more useful in organizing than health and safety. (I was equally unhappy and critical when John Sweeney eliminated the AFL-CIO's health and safety department.)
And while it was clear that there needed to be radical changes in the labor movement if it was to have a chance to survive (or indeed, if the progressive movement in this country was to have a chance to survive), I had serious misgivings about whether dividing the AFL-CIO was the way to go.
So, I was quite happy for the opportunity to read Andy's book in order to get an in-depth look at what it was all about and where we are now over a year after the split. What was SEIU and Change to Win actually doing that is so different from what other unions are doing? What does it mean for the labor movement and what does it mean for America?
The problems that Stern identified were very real. Unions weren't spending enough money on organizing. Too many unions represented the same industries, diluting their bargaining power. Meanwhile, America is in trouble. More and more Americans are working longer hours for less pay, the gap between rich and poor is expanding, a growing number of Americans aren't covered by health insurance. Fewer and fewer have decent, guaranteed pensions. These are not just problems for workers, or unions or even just the middle class. They are problems for the entire country and the only foreseeable way to address these problems in a progressive way is by using the pressure and influence that a large, strong, growing labor movement could put on employers and the political system.
So what are some of the innovative things that SEIU and Change to Win are doing to strengthen the labor movement, and progressive forces in the United States? To name just a few:
- Organizing entire industries and leveling the playing field for all employers: Instead of raising the costs of doing business for unionized companies alone, SEIU's New Jersey Justice for Janitors campaign promised janitorial employers that they wouldn't start bargaining with any individual company until a majority of the companies in the market recognized SEIU as their bargaining agent. were organized. In other words, SEIU was contributing to their employers' success by organizing all their competitors. The union is now using the same strategy to organize security workers.
If wages are like electricity -- where every employer pays the same rates -- then efficiency, innovation and quality will diver success. Employers may complain about the price of labor, but at least they are reassured that their competitors don't have an advantage over them.
- Allowing SEIU members who worked in industries where SEIU lacked expertise to join other unions that could better represent them: SEIU had advocated a reduction in the number of AFL-CIO unions by mergers, and focusing each union on a unique industry sector. As Stern argued before leaving the AFL-CIO thirteen union operate in the airlines industry, twelve organize hotel workers, thirty represent health care workers and on construction sites, "employers had to contend with fifteen building trade unions divided into narrow, archaic craft jurisdictions that technology and new work processes had rendered obsolete."
- Working with New York hospitals, SEIU Local 1199 coordinated their efforts to jointly lobby for increased reimbursements that translated not only into stable balance sheets for employers, but better wages and benefits for union members.
- Building Labor-Management Coalitions: SEIU locals across the country are working with hospitals and health care organizations to improve the quality of health care for patients, as well as the pay, benefits and working conditions of nurses and other health care workers.
Of course, while working with employers to construct win-win scenarios, SEIU didn't swear off use of the stick when needed. As Andy writes:
Although we preferred to lead with the power of persuasion, with many resistant employer we were often left no choice but to use the persuasion of power. In those cases, we issued reports that documented the disparity between the lives of the workers and the CEO's who managed the companies where they worked. We publicized company failures to meet production or worker-safety regulations We talked with member of the companies' board of directors. We submitted shareholders' resolutions and mobilized community supporter. We asked elected leaders to intervene. And, of course, we also used effective old-school tactics: We demonstrated, picketed, and led strikes when necessary.
SEIU's recent hard-fought victory at the University of Miami testified to the fact that while the union is breaking new ground in constructive cooperation with management, they haven't forgotten how to take off the gloves and fight. And it's fight that will be needed if we're ever to civilize (and organize) a company like Wal-Mart.
And it all seems to be working -- at least for SEIU. In 1996, when Stern took over the union, SEIU had 1.1 million members. Today the union is rapidly approaching 2 million members.
So SEIU under Andy Stern is clearly doing some different things that actually seem to be growing the union and developing new ideas. But that's just SEIU. The question still remains, was the split with the AFL-CIO still necessary or could individual unions have followed SEIU's model from within the AFL-CIO? And will the other Change to Win affiliates be able to emulate SEIU just because they're now outside of the AFL-CIO?
In an American Prospect article last summer, labor writer Harold Meyerson points out that with few exceptions most of the big campaigns promised by Change to Win haven't materialized. The problem is that despite the formation of the new federation, responsibility for organizing falls on the individual unions. And while SEIU and UNITE-HERE have gone through the painful process of restructuring themselves into organizing machines, "with ample treasuries, smart corporate researchers, hundreds of organizers, and perhaps a dozen senior lead organizers who know how to run major campaigns,"
Two of Change to Win’s three million–member unions -- the Teamsters and UFCW (SEIU is the third of the mega-unions) -- haven’t done large-scale organizing in decades. The inability of these unions to organize, the UFCW in particular, has doomed the mega-campaigns that [Change to Win Organizing Director Tom] Woodruff rightly said were necessary. For as General Motors and Ford were to the CIO, so Target and Home Depot, and ultimately Wal-Mart, are to Change to Win -- the commanding heights of the service economy.
One longtime union official who has worked with unions now in Change to Win sees the fundamental problem as structural. “They went and recreated the federation structure,” he says. “And the UFCW and the Teamsters still can’t organize. So they’re paralyzed. If you’re gonna bust up the labor movement, you better do something!”
Other questions remain. To what extent does SEIU's formula translate into more effective organizing in the shrinking industrial sector like automobiles? What about sectors like airlines where the older "legacy" carriers are being driven into bankruptcy by the newer, low-cost airlines that essentially compete on lower labor costs? SEIU has been hiring organizers to go to foreign countries to help organize multi-national concerns on a global scale. Sounds good, but can it work with the huge existing disparities in wages, benefits, working conditions and environmental safeguards?
Two things that Andy impressed on me throughout the book were that the labor movement has nothing left to lose. It's dying and something has to be done. Second, we just need to keep thinking strategically, coming up with new ideas and trying them. A lot of them won't work. But if we're brave enough to keep trying, if we sit down and analyze our failures as well as our successes, we'll eventually find a path that works.
Finally, I picked up the book expecting to read a book by a labor leader telling us about where he was going to take his union and the labor movement. When I put it down, however, I realized that it was really an account by an American leader telling us what needs to be done to reshape this country -- and how it needs to be spearheaded by a vibrant, dynamic, growing labor movement that will help make the American dream come true:
Americans understand that hard work and personal responsibility are the foundation of our economy. People want a hand up, not a hand out -- a chance to rise as high as their abilities can take them. Families want to live comfortably. They want to be able to pay their bills and put food on the table -- without the recurring monthly worry that they won't have enough to cover their expenses. Or that an unexpected health crisis would empty their bank accounts.
Americans expect their government to work for them, opening the doors of success and ensuring basic fairness for everyone. American workers grasp that the world and work are changing from 9-5 to 24/7, and that global competition is forcing employers to change as well. Workers hope their employers will treat them as assets, not as necessary costs in the balance sheet of change.
Sounds like plan not just for the labor movement, but for a certain political party that seems forever in search of a positive, constructive theme to lead America into the future.
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Hi Jordan . Appreciate the young and dynamic description. America is at a crossroads and we need a plan. Thanks for hosting this!
Thanks so much for joining us here today, Andy. It was a pleasure to meet you last week at Robert Greenwald’s, and thanks for autographing my book.
Note to discussion participants: Please limit your comments in this thread to Book Salon. If you want to go off-topic, feel free to do so in the previous thread.
Good to be here. As I said, I enjoyed the book enormously. It’s the perfect mesh of labor’s program with what the nation (as well as the Democratic party) needs to be doing.
And we’re all still young and dynamic. Even our kids think so.
One of the things you mentioned that was very affecting to me, Andy, was how we have become a nation of debtors, conditioned to shop for things we don’t even need, and as a result one of the most booming businesses in the country is self-storage.
I’ve been on a feng shui purge ever since.
I am so tired of waiting for politicians to solve our problems. I wrote about how the Bloggers Ball at the 2004 Democratic Convention was attended by only 1 elected officials, as I remember. Guess there were better parties.
Well, allow me to start things off. You talk in your book about your support for Republican politicians — that we need to be talking to both sides, and, of course that many Democrats haven’t been sufficiently supportive of labor.
Have your contributions to the Republican party paid off at all. Any votes you’ve won, or meetings you’ve had because of your contributions?
Jane Hamsher @ 4
Of course, you know my position on this.
It is a shame when more women went bankrupt last year then graduate college. And the number 1 New Year’s Resolution for the first time was not–I want to lose weight!—but instead i want to get out of debt.!
Concentrating organizing in your own sector makes sense, but most Labor unions are all over the map, including those in Change to Win. How is that transition going to be made?
I’d say it paid off for our members who fell like we have on party that writes them off-the Republicans-and another that takes them for granted-the Democrats. Our members expect us to be an independent voice evaluating candidates on issues. So that is the biggest pay off.
Andy Stern @ 4
Yeah well being anti-social is sort of a job qualification. I can well imagine it wasn't exactly a hot ticket event. But I think a few of them have awakened to the fact that we are here. Not that we're waiting for them to take action, far from it. One of the things we really want to do on FDL is form bridges between the blogosphere and labor. You reach people we never can, and vice versa. As your book so rightly points out, there are so many issues fundamental to labor that should be first and foremost on the Democratic agenda, and it's critical to try and work together to face the challenges before all of us.
I think we are on the way to making a transition to unions focusing more on their core industries. The national campaigns of Change To Win are directing energy to high impact efforts that are in each unions area of expertise.
Hardhat @ 8
America is at a crossroads. We need to think of ourselves as a team in the new global economy. Solving issues of health care and retirement and our kids education is an American problem that requires us all to work together.
Jane Hamsher @ 10
Yeah well being anti-social is sort of a job qualification. I can well imagine it wasn’t exactly a hot ticket event. But I think a few of them have awakened to the fact that we are here. Not that we’re waiting for them to take action, far from it. One of the things we really want to do on FDL is form bridges between the blogosphere and labor. You reach people we never can, and vice versa. As your book so rightly points out, there are so many issues fundamental to labor that should be first and foremost on the Democratic agenda, and it’s critical to try and work together to face the challenges before all of us.
Jane brings up building bridges between the blogosphere and labor. I often wonder how many labor union members read blogs. I have a fairly good readership — around 1500 most weekdays — but most of those come during the day and obviously most workers (unless they’re in a job that has access to the internet) aren’t able to read blogs during the day.
Good question Jordan. One thing we know is that the number should grow if we are relevant as more young workers find their information from blogs, the web, and even Colbert . I was on last week quite an experience, but a great place to get a message out.
Let’s go for a harder question Andy. Aside from the money saved because Change to Win dues are lower than AFL-CIO dues, how did the split with the AFL-CIO help your organizing efforts. What are Change to Win unions able to do better by not being part of the AFL-CIO. And why couldn’t they have done the same things from within the AFL-CIO?
I want to thankk Jordan for his thoughtful review and Andy for all his work to date to try to revitalize the labor movement, and of course, for his willingness to spend time with us today.
Here’s my question for Andy:
I have the odd and perhaps unique position of a being a movement, pro-labor progressive who works as part of this blog, and I’m also a lecturer/professor at one of the premier graduate business programs in the country, teaching negotiation.
What advice do you have for a person like me, who might be in a position either to promote more enlightened business management practice or to assist parts of organized labor in gaining power and accomplishing immediate or even longer term goals?
Andy Stern @
10
Well it’s not like the Democrats have exactly been lining up to support progressives like us either, but we made the decision at a certain point that there was nothing we could do to influence the Republicans (who basically want us exterminated) and that working within the Democratic party was the only possibility for change. I realize it’s hard to support the Democrats when they challenge what you stand for (that’s a picture of me swallowing a bitter Bob Casey pill) but we’ve adopted what I think is a practical stance — challenge the power structure (and the values) within the party at the same time you work to strengthen it in order to achieve your objectives.
Andy Stern @ 15
I’m glad you went on Colbert. How did it happen? How can Labor get more presence on mainstream media? I see that as the only way to change the image of Labor which is a necessary step towards getting more people to join unions.
Jordan Barab @
14
There’s also a disconnect between people seeing blogs as a news source rather than a new way to communicate, for every comment I’ve made on yours, you’re still the only one to ever reply. Rarely is there engaged discussion. Take the call out for chemical security. This is a *BIG* issue, but the only reply it got was phone #’s so its faster for people to react on an issue that needs speed
We’re being given the opportunity with blogs to create a fast action response network on every labor issue, and the AFLCIOs blog, although good, doesnt even allow communication between readers
Wow, what a post. I’d also like to hear Andy’s ideas for expanding his ideas across sectors.
Mr. Stern,
I feel the biggest dent to the nation’s labor movement has been the changing attitude of the average American. In other words, most now view themselves as consumers instead of workers, apparently oblivious to the fact that one must work in order to consume (Paris Hilton excluded, of course). What can we do to change this philosphical outlook and make the average American realize that they are being “played”?
Raoul
Fair question. The context for leaving the AFL-CIO is spelled out clearly in my book. We were walking down the road-getting smaller not stronger-and we saw where it ended. And the sign posts said it all. More Americans without health care, higher costs of colelge, and workers with no wage increase on overage for 5 straight years. SO first you have to walk in a different direction.
Two we are seeing CTW as a center of organizing for alot of all of the unions work, and new strategies—not the model of the AFL-CIO. We are demanding more focus from each of us on core industries, and are trying to create new models as well.
It’s all the infancy stage and history will be the judge.
Hi Andy. I am a daughter of a Union president and my son is a Union organizer. My question is do you have a union that is allowed to represent school employees like teacher aides and teacher assistants? Our Union really does not seem to be able to negotiate any real help for us who make very little and have no health insurance. Thanks
As much as building bridges between the blogs and labor is important, probably more important is the public perception of unions. Republican operatives run attack ads against Democratic candidates and invariably point out the donations and support they receive from labor unions, and they say it like it is a dirty word. This is the case in Oklahoma. Are their any plans to show the benefits of unions to the general public?
Raoul Duke @ 21
One attitude that has not changed is that Americans expect to work hard, hope their work is rewarded, and want their kids to do better than they do 52% of parents now think their kids will do worse. Progressives and all Americans need to stand up for our families and kids, and lead with a positive forceful plan for change. I wrote this book to start a conversation. I hop you will join in at www.acountrythatworks.com
Health and safety are frequently cited as the most important issues for union members. How can we integrate health and safety more into organizing campaigns? Organizers often see it as a tool but not as central to their campaigns.
Don’t mean to be a self-promotion record-but I try anddo that in my book. Unions have been the best anti-poverty, best health care and best job training program America ever had. And a time of inequality of wealth —unions help everyone share in the success of a booming economy.Oilfieldguy @ 24
Andy Stern @ 25
Thanks, Mr. Stern, I will definitely check the link out. Wow, that 52% is a pretty startling number, although in another way it should be a lot higher than it is.
Raoul
Hey Andy, good job getting a Forbes article, their picture of you was pretty corporate tho;)
One question tho, and its in rhetoric that you use(and we all do)- this this connects with Raoil’s comquestion at another level: Conastantly unions refer to the middle class, yet the middle class hardly even exists anymore; Why do we focus on the middle class when we’re trying to organize the working class? is this a ploy because we think it’s just [i]easier[/i] to let people think theyre middle class than try to change their mindset about themselves? Some people cite the creation of the middle class and suburbia as the downfall of solidarity(which I’m sure many would argue)- aren’t we just continueing that by focusing on our brothers and sisters as the middle class when we know fully well they’re working class?
Andy Stern @ 25
I will most certainly check out the link. 52% is a really big number of people to be so pessimistic about the future. While it bodes well for the upcoming election, it is still quite depressing. Really depressing, actually.
Raoul
Oilfieldguy @
25
Well I do think that is how we do much of our part of the bridge building — to help battle all the negative right-wing damage that has been done to the whole idea of unionization. We on the blogs can do a lot to re-write that narrative in the way that you mention, but it’s going to take knowledgable people writing about it (like Jordan) and those committed to learing about the complexities of the issues and addressing the problem (like all of us at FDL) to do so, which means cooperating with union folk in the process. That’s why it’s so exciting to have Andy here today, we really appreciate his time.
I think we need your help in devising new opportunities for unions. I am looking at ESOP’s with some new twists as a way to promote workers wealth, and I describe a new possible organization for workers IN MY BOOK—MyLIFE- whcih would be somewhat like AARP for Work
I want to thankk Jordan for his thoughtful review and Andy for all his work to date to try to revitalize the labor movement, and of course, for his willingness to spend time with us today.
Here’s my question for Andy:
I have the odd and perhaps unique position of a being a movement, pro-labor progressive who works as part of this blog, and I’m also a lecturer/professor at one of the premier graduate business programs in the country, teaching negotiation.
What advice do you have for a person like me, who might be in a position either to promote more enlightened business management practice or to assist parts of organized labor in gaining power and accomplishing immediate or even longer term goals?
One attitude that has not changed is that Americans expect to work hard, hope their work is rewarded, and want their kids to do better than they do 52% of parents now think their kids will do worse. Progressives and all Americans need to stand up for our families and kids, and lead with a positive forceful plan for change. I wrote this book to start a conversation. I hop you will join in at www.acountrythatworks.com I will most certainly check out the link. 52% is a really big number of people to be so pessimistic about the future. While it bodes well for the upcoming election, it is still quite depressing. Really depressing, actually. Raoul
Sorry Andy Stern, didn’t mean to dis your efforts. I was mainly speaking towards perhaps a sustained PR campaign. I have seen ads actually attacking unions, but no advertising in response. I agree that unions are the antidote for poverty and that the strength of America exists in the middle class, not in the corporations and captains of industry.
There is nothing unique about a few rich and powerful people controlling a nation. However, the destiny of a nation controlled by the citizens is fairly rare. Seems like a simple enough message to me.
I’d really love to see retail workers go on strike for just one day per month until they are paid a living wage and given AFFORDABLE health care. I’d like to see this begin here in Oklahoma and spread. Bring WalMart etc., to the their senses. Assuming of course, they have any senses.
Affect the bottom line, and things will change. Now this might seem a bit revolutionary but…
We must change our way of doing business. Being stock-holder directed to the exclusion of all other considerations simply doesn’t get it.
I’ll jump in on the health and safety question (or pile on)
Health and safety are frequently cited as the most important issues for union members. How can we integrate health and safety more into organizing campaigns? Organizers often see it as a tool but not as central to their campaigns.
As you have read above, I’ve been highly critical of SEIU (as well as the AFL-CIO) for cutting back their health and safety departments and staffs, and not focusing enough working conditions in general. In fact it was HERE’s president John Wilhelm who first suggested that the AFL-CIO might consider eliminating their health and safety department.
On the other hand, SEIU and UNITE-HERE have been more successful than most unions integrating health and safety issues into some organizing campaigns – UNITE-HERE’s hotel campaign and SEIU’s University of Miami Janitor’s campaign as two examples.
But a major focus of the business community and the Republican party has been to weaken workers’ health and safety protections. The repeal of the ergonomics standard still stands as one of the most egregious crimes of this administration as far as I’m concerned. But over the past 12 years, it’s only been a strong presence in the AFL-CIO and the individual unions that has held them off from even more damage on a national scale. My fear is that the attacks will continue to succeed without a stronger presence on health and safety issues within the labor movement.
Did not feel dissed. Think we all need to raise our voices. We are living thorough a profound economic revolution. Too often companies not countries are making the rules, and that is not healthy. Wal-Mart sales are greater than the GDP of Ireland and Venezuela.
Oilfieldguy @ 35
“Right to work”? Right to be working poor is more like it. Two of the most important things to accomplish here is to get rid of Tom Cole, Tom Coburn and other “right to work types”. Oklahoma was once, and will be again, BLUE. Dark blue.
We need an America where everyone shares in the success of a growing economy and company. A rising tide as JFK should raise ALL boats not just the Luxury liners.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 36
There are so many issues that unions can affect. Safe needles, national health care, urban poverty, affordable housing. They all deserve attention. The problem is if we grow smaller we cannot change anything. Our members are our strength and we need to find ways to integrate all of this issue in a key strategy- rebuilding our strength by uniting more workers.
Jordan Barab @ 37
Agreed Jane, and thank god for the innernets. It does give a microphone and an avenue to perhaps guide the dialogue on the MSM. It seems like they are taking us more seriously, probably because so many here are serious. I work with several owner operator truck drivers who do quite well in this business. They are staunch Republicans, self-reliant bootstrap type of fellows. None have disagreed with my assesment that if Republicans had their way, they wouldn’t be driving those big ol’ shiny bug-busters, instead, we would all be driving for JB Rockerfeller making 12 cents a mile, and damn glad to get it.
And yet they still vote Republican. Just have to keep swinging.
Words are important and America imported the term working class from immigrants in the 20h century–but it has not stuck here. People have aspirations and want opportunity, and middle class seems to have more acceptance.
Brett @ 30
Exactly, but isn’t the question how best to do that? If health and safety issues are what matters to prospective members, then they need more emphasis, not less. Organizing efforts hsould be focused on those key issues that matter the most to new members.
Andy Stern @ 41
Dear Mr. Stern:
I am a member of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association, an independent union, representing group of commercial aircraft mechanics in the US. We de-certified an AFL-CIO union at my airline (United) that we believed did not represent us well. The AFL-CIO villified us and has actively worked against us in our strike against Northwest Airlines.
My question to you is this: When will the traditional labor movement (including the Change to Win Coalition)in the US drop its turf battle and recognize the duly elected representative of an important sector of workers within the economy.
Isn’t it time to drop the petty grievances and unite against the common enemy?
I am glad that Fortune would run a story on unions, so the picture is part of the opportuntiy
Mr. Stern, what are some concrete ways you think the netroots and unions can work together? Is there a place to find labor’s field activities that online activists can join? Or are there resources unions provide netrooters to help with union campaigns, both political and organizing?
First let me say - thanks Andy for your innovative leadership on reforming the labor movement, and thanks Jordan for kicking off the discussion and including a good dose of skepticism in your review!
One thing I liked about the book was the story of how you encouraged one of your locals to join the electrical workers union. That is a relatively simple step which every local and international can undergo without relying on a dime’s worth of help from politicians, and it’s easy to see how, at least theoretically, it would lead to better leverage in bargaining. I have two questions about that approach though. One, has Change to Win actually taken steps to ensure that this basic step is taken for every CTW local and international? Are there, or will there be, enforcable rules in the CTW constitution to ensure that this happens in a timely manner? As I recall the American Prospect article didn’t really cover this.
Two, what about internationals that represent “dying” industries, like UAW? It was heartbreaking to read all the stories about their slow and seemingly inevitable decline this summer. I couldn’t help but think that in some ways, their innovative steps toward growth - organizing auto mechanics, and things like that - was laudable, but it very much flies in the face of your organize-by-industry program. Organizing mechanics, I can only imagine, is quite different from organizing factory workers. What is you advice to the UAW - how should they spend that $60 million?
Another thing I’d like to hear about: what can the blogosphere do to help the labor movement? What I keep hearing is something along the lines of “support labor, respect strike lines, make our issues your issues.” That is fine, and I’m on board with that. But it seems to me like it vastly underutilizes the power of the blogosphere. The blogosphere is potentially a great place to incubate and develop ideas for the labor movement; it could be like a lightweight academic ILR department. Your idea to treat labor costs like the cost of electricity is the kind of thing that the blogosphere could really sink its teeth into. What can the blogosphere do to incubate, develop, and promote those kinds of ideas? What can we do to popularize an economic theory that will help labor prevail in public opinion?
Thanks again for participating here! One other thing: if you find your self in the Boston area, please drop me a line; we’d love to have you at Cambridge Drinking Liberally sometime.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 38
Good topic on OK going blue. Maybe for another thread, but I’m looking into it.
We need to find much more unity as workers, and we also need to stop attacking each other as a pre-condition for working together.
Terry O’Rourke @ 45
Sorry I have to go for now to another event. Great questions. Hope to do an event in Boston sooner rather than later, and will be following the comments. Thanks for being such a forward and provocative thinking person Jordan, and to firedoglake-Jane-you are offering the kind of conversation America needs.
let’s change America for our kids and grand kids, nieces and nephews. They need leadership now.
Oilfieldguy @
42
Well the larger argument needs to be made — or at least articulated more aggressively — that raising labor standards benefits us all. The right wing/GOP has been too successful at spreading the notion that labor unions are run by crooks for people who don’t want to work very hard and just stand there with their hands out. Unfortunately deconstructing that requires time, patience and a commitment to explaining often complex issues to a nation with the attention span of a gnat.
We need to find a way to explain to your truckdriver friends that they benefit when labor is organized and empowered, but that is not a simple point to get across.
Thanks so much for joining us here today, Andy. We really appreciate your taking the time to chat and look forward to working with you in the future.
Thanks Andy. I guess there’s no rest for labor leaders, even Sunday evenings.
OK,I guess it’s just us chickens now.
We must get the message out. When a kid goes to school hungry, he or she doesn’t learn and as a consequence, fails. When Pop’s two jobs doesn’t pay enough to get the right medicine or medical care for his family he has no choice but to turn to the government. And that costs a bundle. When mom and dad declare bankruptcy, this hurts everyone, not just the working poor and middle class. When our working families barely live from month to month, there is no money left at the end of the month to save, or put away for a rainy day. And that hurts the economy. And when you take away working peoples dignity that hurts all of us. Our children are hurting. And it doesn’t have to be thus.
Andy — just wanted to drop in for a minute and say thanks for doing our book salon, and for all you do every day, including with GOTV efforts. Am headed out to do GOTV calls in my district in a few minutes. Every little bit helps — but I wanted to take a minute and thank you for doing more than just a little bit.
And huge thanks to Jordan for hosting today. :)
Exactly, Oklahoma Kiddo. Which is why every Democrat worth his party affiliation should be doing everything he or she can to help build strong unions. Without labor, the Democrats would be nowhere — program-wise or at the polls.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 55
I was going to respond to Jane’s comment about the “larger argument” that needs to be made, but this is a more eloquent example of what I was going to say.
The even larger argument is that despite Republican efforts to convince us that we should each be out for ourselves, the truth is that we’re all in this together. If we can start rebuilding a sense of community as a shared national value, it seems to me that unions can be talked about as a natural way to build community.
Andy talks in his book about the rapid growth of mega-churches and how they’ve replaced the community that labor used to provide in a number of areas, not just spiritual — things like day care, music, service projects, hobbies and just plain fun. Labor not only has to relate to issues that are relevant to people’s lives, but they need to once again become more than occasional boring meetings and contract negotiations every few years.
Swopa @
58
Unfortunately the GOP/Ayn Rand/Gordon Gekko “it’s all about me and more for me” meme plays very well and is awfully hard to deconstruct. Jimmy Carter wanted us all to tighten our energy belts and Ronald Regan told us all not to worry and feel free to be greedy oil pigs. And that one seemed like a no-brainer.
Going to be a tough nut to crack.
I haven’t read the book yet, but I hope it’s OK to jump in with some comments/questions.
Specifically, how can unions grow in non-traditional industries/occupations:
1. White collar workers are often exploited by big corporations. They call them “salaried” but then make them work no less than 40 hours or be docked. They call them “exempt” to get out of paying them the more than 40 hours overtime required to get “merit raises”. Discrimination subtle and overt is rampant. What can unions do to help these people who truly aren’t management (or bona fide professionals), and don’t reap the benefits of being called management?
2. What can be done to make unions more palatable to those white collar workers? Wages seem a big barrier, because if people aren’t sitting on the same factory line it’s hard to justify paying everyone the same wage. Example, if I work hard, am particularly skilled, and out perform my peers in my job why should my compensation be tied to everyone else in the union who may not be as good of an employee as me? How can you sell working conditions/rights to form unions without tying it to wages?
3. As a non-union activist, I have worked with UAW union members on campaigning and GOTV. Some unions post signs saying no non-Ford, non-GM, non-Chrysler cars can park in their lots. It seems to me that unions shoot themselves in the foot with non-union people by refusing to accept that other factors, like quality and price, are important to consumers. What can be done to change the mindset/appearance that unions care more about protecting their jobs than anything else?
Big corporations are exploiting Americans office workers. Seems like unionizing them would be a win-win.
Swopa @ 58
Exactly! What we need to realize is this very week we’re being given a massive opportunity. This week “Tempting Faith” gets released, and SOME of these people voting republican will stop- they wont however change their vote(IMO) and we need to embrace them, get all our religious buddies and all our Labor Priests(theres still a few) to court them and say guys, you might not like the demos, neither do we, but its a gateway to social justice
As it stands we have religion on our side when it comes to social justice and helping the poor, but very few religious voters know it- to them theres too much difference to work together
But we also have to realize that we need to make it PERFECTLY.CLEAR. to anyone who we get in office that we can take them out- are we willing to do that is the question
just because theres a bug on a sign doesn’t mean theyll vote against a trade agreement
Jordan Barab @ 59
Kobe’s son BooBoo had to move away last year to Washington to go live with his new Mormon wife (it was an arranged marriage) and she explained to me the organizational principles of the Mormon church she belonged to. The structure was phenomenal, something I never knew the details of before. She’s a single, middle-aged woman all on her own (except for one very enormous poodle) with a whole community of people who look out for her. The support that it offers her is beautiful.
Unfortunately you have to be a Mormon. But BooBoo doesn’t drink or smoke so it wasn’t an issue for him.
HeirofPatriots @ 61
This is something I can attest to, and it goes back to the old belief that you need to be paying people for them to be helping you- theres thousands of kids out there ages 16-24 who have the labor movement in their blood and don’t know it, but the labor movement refuses to court them because they’re not from within the ranks.
I was an intern this summer and someone asked me who my parents were because of “common practice” to only hire union kids- my parents weren’t in any union.ever.
We need to not just organize people, we need to mobolize people; health safety & the environment is probably the best way to do this- you can claim unions are greedy because they want higher wages, but you can’t defend yourself when you’re killing our kids
Jane Hamsher @ 60
Yep, that was a key turning point. I remember Hamilton Jordan writing in his memoir about the corrosive effect that Reagan’s “Are you better off now than you were four years ago?” would have in years to come.
What can unions do to help white collar workers?
There are more and more unions of “white collar workers,” doctors, university professors and white collar government workers come to mind. But it’s not easy as unions still have that blue collar image. The essence of unionism, however, is simple: you’re more powerful acting together than acting alone. Sometimes people have to be screwed a few times to figure that out.
What about the fact that union members get the same wages and pay which may not appeal to merit-focused white collar workers
First, strict pay scales and grades don’t automatically come with union contracts. They’re negotiated. If other things are more important, then the union contract will focus on those things, or perhaps a mixture of merit and pay grades. The problem is that more and more worker see that their promotion or pay increases are often based on issues other than merit — how loyal they are to the boss, tolerance of harassment or discriminatory practices, general favoritism, etc. And, of course you can have promotions based on merit, even when you have strict pay grades within job categories.
Don’t restrictions on foreign cars in union parking lots turn a lot of people off who are mainly concerned with price and quality?
Yes. Unfortunately, you can’t expect people to buy an inferior product just because it’s American made. On the other hand, is it too much to ask for people to pay a bit more to avoid product made in foreign sweat shops? An eternal problem…
Dang, I got here too late to tell Andy, “Welcome” as an SEIU member and FDL’er. I would like to have asked him to comment on the recent NLRB ruling that took away the rights of charge nurses to organize and the incredible legal hurdles placed in the way of organizing unions period.
A year ago I particpated in an organizing campaign of non-union of workers who gain the benefits we union members win by fighting and, yes, paying dues; but without the sacrifices. We lost after the governor pretty much stuck it to us on the card check he promised.
Damn, I just do not understand getting the opportunity to be a union and turning it down.
g
Swopa @ 65
Yes, Exactly! How do we instill the meme that
IT’S THE COMMONWEALTH, STUPID
Many years ago, I did my master’s thesis on income inequality trends in the US labor force, and have followed these trends ever since. And the pattern these days appears very much like the “Gilded Age” with high rates of inequality. Sometimes I despair that we must have another Great Depression to reboot the social system. Yet the possibility for a new industrial revolution is before us everywhere we look.
“She’s a single, middle-aged woman all on her own (except for one very enormous poodle) with a whole community of people who look out for her. The support that it offers her is beautiful.”
Makes me feel all warm and toasty inside. I like it.
Jordan: Sorry coming late to the party, but I have a question-How do you respond to the knock that everybody seems to have about unions ruining business, being inflexible, institutionalizing laziness, etc. Basically the stereotypes of unions and union members.
Is this the week the Dow hits 12,000?
Can someone please explain to me how this is going to benefit working middle class and working poor Americans?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15254498/
How does union activity and success differ between the European Unions and the American Unions?