
[This morning's guest post from Attaturk is a huge favor for me, and one for which I am most grateful. Bivens claims -- of which the Wilson complaint is one -- is a special sort of civil rights claim in federal civil cases. Having never moved a Bivens claim forward in my legal career, I've been giving myself a sort of mini-continuing legal education seminar on the Bivens case, and all the surrounding case law, and trying to get some understanding on how this may or may not play out in federal court.
It turns out that not only is Attaturk a first-class snarky smartass (you may know him from Rising Hegemon), but he's also a great attorney who has, in fact, worked with a number of Bivens claims, and has graciously consented to doing a sort of primer for everyone (inlcuding me) on the subject. It is worth saying, again, this morning that the opinions contained herein are for analysis purposes only in a general sense. If the Vice President and White House minions have outed your spouse as a covert CIA operative (or you have had any other problem with a government official acting in a potentially malicious way), you should consult an attorney in your own jurisdiction and talk with them about your own set of facts -- this, in no way, should be considered to be legal advice that applies in any way to any case at all whatsoever, other than to give us all a general understanding of how a Bivens claim might play out for the Wilsons at some point in the future. (There, that's enough legalese for this morning...on with the post.) Huge thanks to Attaturk for doing this for me on short notice -- what a peach! -- CHS]
Christy, knowing that there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- better than a "bus drivers holiday" has asked me to write so some real general stuff on the type of action filed on Thursday by Joe & Valerie Wilson against the Craven Triumvirate (Cheney, Rove, Libby) and a whole chorus of mysterious potential douchebags, I mean, defendants.
It's a bus driver's holiday because while most of you, okay many, alright some, know me as a blogger of occasional snark -- too clever by half (I disagree, I'm too clever by 2/3rds at least!), I am in reality a lawyer with some experience in these types of claims. I'm hardly the ultimate authority on such topics -- but I've tried a few and that is probably worth something.
I know it sounds strange, but it hasn't always been clear you could even sue the government, let alone the federal government. It became clearer in the halcyon days of the Warren Court when an old Civil War Statute that somehow had not be overturned 42 U.S.C. §1983 was found to give you, yes you, Mr. & Ms. American a right to sue the police officer that had abused you, or even the (government employed) boss that kept you from taking part in politics.
The catch was that §1983 only applied to "state actors" -- which came to mean pretty much any government official that did not work for the Federal Government. However, there was until 1971 no right to sue a Federal official for their acts was clearly enunciated.
In a case involving the violation of the 4th Amendment the analogy of §1983 was extended in Bivens v. Six Unknown Federal Narcotics Agents, 403 U.S. 388 (1971)[I'm not giving full legal cites "screw you bluebook!" - just to piss off the man!].
Bivens contained more than just a logical clarification; it contained a new and novel expansion of the power of citizens against the government. And this is something quite important to Joe & Valerie Wilson's case. It ruled explicitly that the Constitution itself, not just statutes or regulations, provided an actionable right to a citizen when that right is violated. This was quite novel, in that most statutes that enable you to go to court have some reference to remedies - there is obviously nothing in the Constitition that contains anything other than debatably a non-monetary remedy. Bivens created the right to sue, it also said in effect "apply traditional tort remedies". So you can sue under the 1st, the 4th, the 5th, or the 8th Amendments for lost wages, pain and suffering, emotional harm, and even to some extent punitive damages (there are some restrictions on these that, but that's for another time). From their suit it is the First and Fifth Amendment the Wilson's rely upon, that government officials cannot retaliate against an individual exercising First Amendment rights. Crawford-El v. Britton, 523 U.S. 574. Whether it applies in the context that they are asserting it applies is another matter.
Bivens has been clarified and restrained over the years by the Court. However, it is still good law, which even Scalia, Thomas, and Alito recognize. However, it is fairly clear what it allows, and that is suits only against individual actors, not governmental agencies. FDIC v. Meyer, 510 U.S. 471 (1994).
Institutional Difficulties of Constitutional Torts:
One of the real joys of doing these type of cases are all the immunities -- all of which have been carried over to the United States from "the mother country" (thanks Blackstone, thanks so effing much!). We bend over backward with immunities in the land of the free. We are not alone, of course, in that doctrine, but still I think most every society is a little too rigid about it. There are three immunities involved in Constitutional Torts that I will address; Sovereign Immunity, and then two types of individual immunities Absolute and Qualified.
Sovereign Immunity basically saves the government's ass from being sued for money, unless they allow themselves to be so sued by statute. For an example to see how we take it too far. Conservatives are always on about the plain text of the Constitution being paramount. Try reading the 11th Amendment sometime and tell me how it keeps me as a citizen from suing my state for damages -- as the Court long ago ruled. You'll be looking a long time. Protecting the government as a doctrine is older than the Constitution and it will long survive it.
Absolute Immunity: This means you cannot sue a governmental official for doing what they were either elected or appointed to do (Executive, Parliamentary and Judicial Immunity). For the executive branch this sort of becomes like the original form of "Sovereign Immunity", where you cannot sue the King. Cheney is being sued, individually, for actions he did while he was Vice-President. Is he a wanker? Oh most definitely -- but can he as Vice President be sued for actions he took as Vice President for damages in civil court? While it is true that there is a significant functional difference between the President and the Vice-President (just pretend that Cheney is not really in charge), I kind of doubt courts will view a Constitutional Officer as not having that kind of strong immunity.
I have to say, as much as I dislike Dick Cheney it seems a really hard argument for the Wilsons' to make. He is in effect, as far as the law is concerned, as protected as the King was all those years ago in British Civil Courts (we're not talking criminal court).
Yes, Clinton v. Jones is out there, but that case involved what Clinton did before he was President (though he was Governor) -- and by the time the Federal System was involved it was really about the process of allowing the suit to go forward. I don't really think it applies in this case. I think Cheney will likely benefit from his Absolute Immunity from suit for actions undertaken while he was Vice-President. That is what Impeachment proceedings are supposed to be for (emphasis on "supposed to be").
Qualified Immunity: And now we get to the interesting stuff. Being unelected and being non-judges, Rove and Libby do not get the benefit of that sweet "Absolute Immunity" doctrine. They perform what are called discretionary tasks (put simply, nobody elected or ratified their selection to shit). Rather, they get "Qualified Immunity" meaning that they too cannot be sued unless the official's "actions could reasonably have been thought consistent with the rights they are alleged to have violated." Anderson v. Creighton, 483. U.S. 635 (1987). In that regard, the Court stated the right must be sufficiently clear that a reasonable official would understand that what he is doing violates that right.
In short:
(1) Was the law governing the official's conduct clearly established?(2) Under that law, could a reasonable officer have believed the conduct was lawful?"
I think now would be a time to take a break and consider just how awesomely exciting this all is.
...go on...
...you can do it...
Okay, back to the mundanity!
These immunities will come up in what happens first in the Wilsons' case. A pre-Answer Motion to Dismiss filed by the three named defendants.
But will they win?
No matter how I look at it, I just cannot see Big Time making it to the discovery phase. I know that sucks, I join you in "wishing" that wasn't true, but sometimes the law wins out over what we desire (and in my line of business that happens a depressing amount of time). I just cannot see a court allowing a civil suit against a sitting Vice President for acts he committed while he was Vice-President. I foresee no "Cheney Exception", much as we might want one.
Now, as for Libby and Rove, that gets a lot more interesting, and I think there's a good shot they'll be around for a while.
If you look at the pleadings "(1) Was the law governing the official's conduct clearly established? (2) Under that law, could a reasonable officer have believed the conduct was lawful?"
If you look at the Actual Complaint, here, pay particular attention to Paragraphs 18, 19-21 and then 27 through 29 you will see the basis by which the Wilson's will set those out.
Judging the strength of a case is dangerous business, but I can say that I have filed, and won, Motions to Dismiss with less evidence in a Bivens case then is present here.
I'm not going to go into each of the claims, because I really, really don't like voluntarily agreeing to give lengthy legal opinions for free. Nothing personal.
Now, if you'll excuse me I'll get back to my normal bloggy blog, where I engage in more lofty intellectual pursuits. Like fake Larry King columns, K-Lo and Jonah Goldberg abuse, and other various comedy failures.
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Atta effing turk
Boo yah!
And, as I suspect the Wilsons know (and why they are probably doing this) the best possible outcome of this action will be to bring more awareness of this administration’s evil and conniving ways more fully, more clearly and more convincingly to the larger public’s consciousness.
Great post. Simply great.
JH in 1 (yeah, I got a zero, so I know it’s “really” 2) - I could not agree more. The hope that this action will result in actual panalties for these abusers of the public trust is pretty well forlorn, BUT keeping all their sleaze well illuminated is a great piece of action in and of itself. Now if only the party in opposition could actually make some hay with it…
atta boy, attaturk! thanks for addressing the ‘clear as mud’ immunity issues.
luckily, we can count on arlen specter to change whatever laws are necessary to retroactively legalize these confusing, nuanced issues.
Just to pop in here quick, the second from last paragraph is confusing (hell I wrote it, most of it may be).
What I should have said more clearly is that representing Plaintiffs, I’ve filed Complaints with less evidence in the Pleadings and won a ruling on my resistance to a Motion to Dismiss filed by the Defendant(s).
So I don’t think the factual allegations in the pleadings are weak at all. Especially when it comes to Libby & Rove. I’ve seen weaker, and I’ve filed weaker.
Attaturk - what a great education you’ve given us - thank you!
So, OK - if the Cheney part of the suit doesn’t make it to discovery, I can see one upside to this - tell me if I’m wrong. It seems this would mean that chimpy wouldn’t dare (as has been rumored) dump Cheney after the midterms (health reasons, doncha know) in order to put McCain or Giuliani or Allen or somebody in the VP slot with a headstart on ‘08 POTUS.
So, my question is: if, for some reason Cheney stops being VP, can the Wilsons reassert the lawsuit against him?
And one other question: can the lawsuit drop Cheney for the reasons you gave but still proceed against Libby and Rove and the other 10 John Does?
Thanks, Attaturk.
As a non-legal person, I’ve been wondering what all this “Bivens” shit was about. I really appreciate your post. Thanks again.
One of the joys of teaching about “sovereign immunity” (the doctrine that says you can’t sue the government unless it allows you to do so) is the origin of the doctrine:
“The King can do no wrong.”
Traditionally, I ask my students to discuss whether such a doctrine has any place in a democracy — in a country that threw off the King.
But these days, it’s a different argument. We have “the man who would be king” (a great movie, by the way), and he indeed thinks he can do no wrong. And some members of the Soopreme Court agree.
Sovereign immunity is still a burr under the saddle of our democracy.
Everhopeful at 7:
So, my question is: if, for some reason Cheney stops being VP, can the Wilsons reassert the lawsuit against him?
If he is dismissed because he acted as VP, it would not be affected by his current status, it would be because he took the actions while Vice President.
So if Cheney was no longer serving, he could not be reinstated.
All this assumes that I am right in my original analysis regarding his immunity of course.
And one other question: can the lawsuit drop Cheney for the reasons you gave but still proceed against Libby and Rove and the other 10 John Does?
Yes, each is a separate party. If Cheney is dismissed it does not automatically mean that all others are tossed.
Attaturk at 6:
I was about to ask you about that penultimate paragraph, as it had me confused. Thanks for the clarification Christy can probably tell you how to edit the original post or add an update.
Thanks for the rundown.
CHS did herself proud, putting Attaturk on this one.
Really needed to know what this was about. Thanks so much.
Clearly the Wilson suit isn’t about getting damages (since they’re giving any money away), but about holding the Bush junta accountable. In that regard I think a victory becomes less important. What is important is opening the can of worms, so to speak.
Much as the Paula Jones suit was designed primarily to destroy Clinton politically, it seems the Wilson suit has as intent the piercing of the propaganda bubble around the Bush government. I sure hope even getting Cheney off the hook becomes a long, drawn-out process, just to keep fresh in everyone’s minds the scummy actions he has executed.
And then there is the amount of time and resources defending against this will take out of Drunk-Eye Dick’s day, not to mention the likes of Rove and John Does 1-10…
Thanks for the Bivens 101.
This will air a great deal of dirty deeds and general GOP dirty laundry, slowly and ceremoniously.
Headline after headline.
The fun part will be watching the Democrats go out of their way to fail to take advantage of it.
Queensbury rules, and all that.
I’ve no doubt that even if Rove were to be found in bed with a live boy AND a dead girl, the Congressional Democrats would make speeches about Rove’s youth outreach activities.
The best thing that can happen with this case is to proceed at a stately pace right through the November elections.
Don’t forget to donate to the Wilson’s legal fund. This is a show you don’t want to miss.
But at least there are no cases establishing that the VP is immune.
And should he be?
Very informing. But, then again, FDL always is. Thank you!
I thought that in a democracy the citizen was soveriegn. Presidents and Vp’s are just hired help that we elect to do a specific job with specific rules and they are checked and balanced by the other two branches. Sovereign immunity has no place in a democracy. We are all equal under the law, right? That’s what I get for believing my civics teacher.
the Veep has only two vital Constitutional duties: breaking tie votes in the Senate and checking with the White House Physician on the health of the President. Everything else is rock-and-roll (as delegated by the President). Cheney’s alleged activities against the lovely Valerie hardly sound as if they are mandated by the Constitution …
That has to be someone imitating Attaturk..a rank imposter…we must balance the evidence..on the one hand intelligent discourse..on the other Atta J. Turk…
It’s like the notorious Scarlett Pimpernel hiding behind a sissy persona..impossible
Memorandum for the Attorney General, A Sitting President’s Amenability to Indictment and Criminal Prosecution (Oct. 16, 2000) (on file with the Department of Justice),
(but that was under Clinton’s DOJ)
All from a law review article that I found.
Oh man, Attaturk, what a service you’ve rendered us this morning. I’m very grateful for this primer.
I haven’t pondered the Wilsons’ complaint nearly as deeply as you and Christy et al. have, but as soon as I began to read its “Preliminary Statement” yesterday, a question arose. (I spent a couple of years in the late 90s as an appellate public defender, but in self-preservation have since done an excellent job of flushing all that from my memory. Anyhow . . .)
Though I know that good lawyering is, in essence, good story-telling, and that plain English is the best possible medium in which to do it, the “for a general audience” feel of the first section of this complaint could cut both ways, couldn’t it? While it may invite more readers into the document than would normally care to sample (risk?) Legal, couldn’t it also risk alienating the judge from the git?
I’m interested in your, Christy’s and others’ opinions of this issue. And thanks again for lighting us through this dark spot in most of our knowledges.
Prof is right, as is a much greater Constitutional Scholar than I, Erwin Chemerinsky who is co-counsel for the Wilsons.
There is little caselaw on the status of the Veep, and much conjecture.
But as this is a CIVIL case about what Cheney did or did not do as Veep it is all predictive, and I’m predicting the Court will be all about formalities and find that as a Constitutional officer a Veep is immune from civil suit for his actions in that role.
There is certainly a law review article or two out of this case.
Could one successfully argue for an absolute immunity for only those acts undertaken to execute the constitutional powers of the office of VP, and qualified immunity for delegated ‘rock and roll’?
Presidents and Vp’s are just hired help that we elect to do a specific job with specific rules and they are checked and balanced by the other two branches.
Used to seem like a good system, didn’t it? Now we know it was just a theory that doesn’t work so well in some situations. The GOP Congress has chosen to be a rubber stamp and exercise absolutely no oversight of the Bush government. The courts, because of the rubber-stamp Congress, are being packed with judges that favor the actions of the Bush government. All of this is happening because of the government control/influence over the the news media, aka the Fourth Estate.
We are living in a time where the fatal flaw in our system of government is being exploited to its maximum, and it will take at least a generation to undo.
Lotus at 23, that particular complaint about the preliminary statement was rather strange to me.
Even out here in the wilderlands of federal practice Preliminary Statements are common place. I usually wrote a simple narrative in Federal Cases before I get down to the factual paragraphs.
Of course, usually few, if any people, know who the hell my people are, nor any inkling of the case — certainly not the situation in this case.
So Dick gets immunity. Damn. How will he get what’s coming to him? Painful heart attack? Soul-crushing regret on his death bed? A slip on a banana peel?
So, Paula Jones got to pursue her piece-o’-crap lawsuit against Clinton because he wasn’t prez in the time period her suit covered, but otherwise she couldn’t have done so?
It seems that being in the highest offices gives a prez and v-prez a license to do whatever they wish. Aren’t they also protected from arrest while in office?
So Dick gets immunity. Damn. How will he get what’s coming to him?
God works in strange and mysterious ways, Her wonders to perform …
While I can see basic immunity for elected officials acting in good faith, the key here is the “good faith” part. If to prevent someone from speaking out they perform a political hatchet job, that seems to define “bad faith”.
I agree that there has to be some remedy for those discriminated against. This also speaks to Bush’s attempt to lock up anyone he considers “dangerous”.
Attaturk, thanks so much for straightening this up for me. Seems to me that the judge is paramount to whether this type of suit is successful or not: insofar as a judge is inclined to rule (on motions to dismiss, etc.) shaded by his own political ideolgy, he can find plenty of cover to do so in a case like this. Or not?
Attaturk…not just a pretty face after all…
Christie, WE are most grateful for YOUR skills and your dedication to helping us understand the legal issues to the best of our untrained abilities. And, of course, we add our thanks for Attaturk’s contribution.
I’ll echo:
1) “Thanks for Bivens 101″ that even THIS citizen can grasp and follow. (smiling along with the sarcastic asides don’t hurt.) Attaturk is one good lawyer. (It took two readings of that particular point, but I WAS able to pull together that you’ve filed and won with less than the Wilson’s have in this filing. And seen others of similar thresholds do same.)
–
2) ANYTHING that drags this monster into light:
-
a) The intel was bogus.
b) They knew it was bogus.
c) They LIED to us.
d) The LIES gave support to an unjustified, malignant, ill-conceived, ill-executed war.
e) As a result, our people on the ground are dying, daily. As are Iraqis. (militia, civilians, EVERYBODY.)
f) In confusion/frustration our armed forces (and hired henchmen) are committing unspeakable war crimes like rape and murder of defenseless civilians.
g) We’re spending and wasting a whole lotta money doing this.
g.1) War profiteering.
h) Here in the U.S.,the fake war on terror is a ruse to shred Constitutional foundations, Amendments and Liberties and substitute fascistic policies and domestic spying.
—–
Geez; I hope and pray some of that gets ‘on the table’.
I’m predicting the Court will be all about formalities and find that as a Constitutional officer a Veep is immune from civil suit for his actions in that role.
Since the VEEP in question is Cheney, you’re probably right; if it was Al Gore or some other Democrat, the courts would squash them like a bug.
Who knew that Blind Justice could be so GOoPer friendly? Maybe it’s the smell of elephant dung . . .
I think the best case for the proposition that Cheney can’t be sued for retaliating againsg Wilson by outing Plame would be Nixon v. Fitzgerald, 457 US 731 (1982). Its worth a read, because the facts are similar enough to the current situation that a court could readily dismiss the case against rove and libby as well based on this case alone.
The Wilsons seem to have based their claim on another case decided the same day, Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800 (1982)
Another earlier case of interest is Butz v. Economou, 457 US 731 (1978).
This said, the worst thing for the Wilsons is the recent Supreme Court decision in Garcetti v. Ceballos (No. 04-473) (slip op) [warning: pdf!], which eliminates practically all first amendment protection against retaliation against a government whistleblower. Keep in mind the Nixon v. Fitzgerald case above was about a government employee who told congress about corrupt spending practices related to Vietnam, Bivens opened a door via the First Amendment. The 5-4 Garcetti decision was (probably intentionally) expressly aimed at this very case, since Mr. Cheney and his duck hunting buddies knew there was a civil action around the bend. Its not clear what other constitional basis can be used, the Fifth Amendment due process claim really doesn’t seem to cut it especially in light of Nixon v. Fitzgerald and Garcetti, taken together.
Just my two cents.
Atta “Studs” Turk’ll keep us well informed.
Antifa 15, youth outreach activities—! hahahahahah
Oh thank you, I needed a laugh.
Very nicely done, Attaturk. I agree that the question of Cheney’s immunity requires the court to decide whether Nixon v. Fitzgerald applies, or whether the President’s Constituional role is unique, and the Veep is more like a Cabinet officer or a Presidential advisor (Harlow v. Fitzgerald.) The OLC memoranda Prof cites do distinguish between the indictment of a sitting President (not OK) and a sitting Veep (OK), but of course they are not determinative. If the complaint against Cheney gets dismissed on that ground, that will be appealed, and it will be interesting to see the outcome. But despair not, firepups, because even if Deadeye is not a defendant, his testimony can be compelled as a non-party witness. As to that, I think there is no reasonable doubt — ask Aaron Burr — but I’d be interested in everyone else’s views.
Attaturk, I think your reading of Jones might be too narrow. Although the Court discussed the fact that Clinton’s actions had occurred before he became president, that wasn’t the legal test. Rather, the Court held that the existence of immunity turned on whether the alleged damage arose “out of the execution of official duties“:
It seems to me that the fact Clinton’s alleged actions took place before he was president was not the determining factor in deciding whether he had immunity. The Court only brought that up to show it was obvious that any damage to Paula Jones didn’t flow from the execution of Clinton’s official duties.
Here, Cheney will have to argue that the official duties of the Vice President include illegally leaking information to reporters for the purpose of obtaining revenge against someone who embarrased him.
I know that Prelim Stmts are common, Attaturk, and I should have made myself clearer. The thing that I fear may bite a Bush-appointee about this one is its almost “political speech” rhetoric. Not only might such language twang the judge’s subconscious defenses, it might also help open the complaint to attack by the Toobins of the world as “a PR stunt in Bivens clothing” (or some such crapola).
Well okay, maybe it’s just me, worrying about something unworthy of fretting-over (an old habit), but it does make me a tinge uneasy . . .
I can’t wrap my brain around the coexistence of ‘democracy’ and ’soverign immunity”. It’s the antithesis of everything the framers intended. Obviously they never anticipated this thing that is BushCo.
Wordpress ate the citation to Harlow, which is the best Supreme Court case for the Wilsons and which can be found here among other places…
Attaturk
I echo everyone else here in thanking your for your free primer.
So here’s a question. Say that the Cheney part is thrown own, but not the Libby and Turdblossom part. Or say that the Libby and Turdblossom bit is thrown out too, but that it is proven that Ed Gillespie and Newt Gingrich are also involved in this smear (Gillespie for leaking the INR memo contents in Fall 2003 to JimmyJeff GannonGuckert–not sure if it was Gillespie, but we know some RNC types did this in an attempt to perpetuate the “Plame sent Wilson” meme; Newt for his presence at the original smear Wilson meeting–though he may have immunity from being on the Defense Policy Board or something like that).
If SOME case goes forward, albeit not against the main actors, do the Wilsons still get to subpoena the main actors?
Doug: your comment wafted in from the celestial aether and is # 37 …
This is the judge the Wilsons got, right?
http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/bates-bio.html
http://www.truthout.org/docs_0.....cheney.htm
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20021025.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Bates
It sounds like Judge Bates has ruled in Cheney’s favor before. Thanks, Attaturk, for this explanation of the Bivens. You lawyers, always coming up with something complicated for the rest of us on a Saturday morning!
*g*
Hi Redd!
Thanks, Atta.
Attaturk @ 6 thanks for the clarification, because it sounded just the opposite in the original.
Question. Does the oath of office to “faithfully discharge” duties and uphold the Constitution enter into this for Cheny? If he’s proved to have violated someone’s rights with wanton disregard, i.e. malfeasance as well as malice, can he be argued to have been faithless and therefore not entitled to immunity?
Matt at 41, you may be right of course.
Merited or otherwise — without a lot of case law on the subject, I’m guessing the make up of our current courts will find that Cheney was only able to do what he did because he was acting as Vice President. As unfair as that may be.
But it’s all guesswork.
“….a whole chorus of mysterious potential douchebags, I mean, defendants.”
Thank you for doing your part to help win acceptance of the use of the word “douchebag” as a legal term of art. Often, I’ve been tempted to advise a court that my client’s motion for summary judgment is supported by the indisputable fact that the defendants were engaged in utterly “douchebagish” behavior at all relevant times.
Thanks for the Bivens analysis, as well.
oh, BarbaraB at 40! Your comment was all serious and lawyer-ly and instructive — then I got to “ask Aaron Burr.”
And I cracked up. You are too funny!
EmptyWheel asked:
If SOME case goes forward, albeit not against the main actors, do the Wilsons still get to subpoena the main actors?
As fact witnesses it would seem hard for Rove, Libby & even Cheney to get out of such testimony — though I suppose they could try to quash on national security reasons.
You have a lot of power in Federal court to subpoena witnesses as long as there is some possible relevant reason for doing so.
*ilson — when I started writing it there were less than ten comments. I just type real slow. Hence the “out of the aether” nature of the comments. However, as anyone can tell you, aether doesn’t really exist.
Maxwell too will demonize me for that “aether” remark …
(OT) Sure hope we don’t have any San Bernardinan FDLers in harm’s way — good luck to you-all!
Ah, thank you Attaturk. That’s good news. Because there was a lot of activity around October 2003 that included GOPers. And they wouldn’t have immunity of any kind, it seems to me. Which suggests if we can get them in court, we can drag in Turdblossom and Dick.
Immunity and plea bargains. What do these concepts have to do with justice and the assigning of, and the acceptance of responsibility? Perhaps a better system of justice would be the British model. That is, the pooling of ALL information between the various officers of the court, with the objective of achieving justice. Not a perfect system to be sure. But our system is broken, and needs a major overhaul. Some might say that our industry of jurisprudence is way too politicised and more resembles our fractured health care industry. “The best justice that money can buy”. That’s what we have. And a SCOTUS heavy with the incompetence and dogma of Scalia, Alito, and Roberts. And a federal court system based on political spoils and packed with right-wing Bush reactionary appointees.
Thanks for the post. I understand not wanting to work for free, but I will definitely appreciate any more insight you have as the case progresses.
Maxwell too will demonize me for that “aether” remark …
As will Hertz and Mach and Michelson and Morely, too.
Off topic.
If Bush uses his first ever veto to block stem cell research, we need enough buzz to push it into MSM.
This topic splits republicans and it’s a great way to highlight that no spending bill has ever been veto’d. Big spending and interference in our personal lives, that’s the republican way.
OT from prior thread
lotus, there was a serious glitch in my salmon recipe. I’ve posted a correction at the end of the thread.
(And if a moderator wanted to go up the thread and correct it at comment #8, I’d be grateful, and so would anyone who tries the recipe.)
OT.
From an international relations perspective, how much of a political boner did Olmert pull by escalating heavily into Lebanon without giving some 25,000 citizens from their closest ally time to leave?
-GSD
Thanks for the update, Peterr!
Here, Cheney will have to argue that the official duties of the Vice President include illegally leaking information to reporters for the purpose of obtaining revenge against someone who embarrased him.
That is the sharp edge of a razor I look forward to Cheney passing over. Go ahead and explain why destroying CIA assets for a political vendetta falls under official duties.
Doesn’t Suskind’s book The One Percent Doctrine essentially claim Bush himself is the one who wanted Wilson destroyed? Puts the “major league asshole” exchange between Bush and Cheney in 2000 in perspective, doesn’t it?
OfT: Did y’all see emptywheel’s smackdown of Byron York’s Hair re the Plame case, this morning? (My apologies if already linked, my excuse is PDT)
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c......html#more
*ilson -
You ARE indeed a scholar. (and the kindest, etc.) ;->
I’ve been stuck w/spelling ‘ethernet’ in referencing the ‘big bitbucket in the sky’ notion.
Now, the ‘alternative’ (that would be olde school, no?) of ‘Aethernet’ more accurately, and less confusingly is in my lexicon.
Thanks so much for that alone Along w/all the behind the scenes activity.
puppethead, the whole last 6 years have put “major league asshole” into not just perspective but high relief! Gawwwwd.
Doug 37 — Garcetti is not on point, tin foil hats to the contrary notwithstanding. Ambassador Wilson was not a public employee at the time he was exercising his First Amendment rights. Even if he had been, he would have been speaking as a private citizen on a matter of general concern (unlike Ceballos, at least according to the majority.) Ms. Plame was a public employee, but her speech rights aren’t involved at all. She was punished for her husband’s speech.
One more thing. I’ve said this before, but was so deeply EPU’d that I’d better say it again. Please do not buy into Tom DeLay’s talking points and assume that all judges are partisan hacks. That way lies the madness of Justice Sunday. Oh, and TeddySanFran, I love you too. :>)
Kludge: to be way cool and spell it “æthernet” — a sorta pre-Xerox-Palo-Alto spelling …
I wonder whether there’s any evidence around that any of the malefactors in Valerie’s outing exerted any influence or had any involvement in the Garcetti v. Ceballos case, and if so, whether such action constitutes unethical or illegal conduct (a la the Kyl/Graham colloquy)
IANAL, obviously.
Attaturk,
Got compliment you. That was one of the most succinct explainations of Immunites I have ever seen. Nice, clear simple.
If Bush indeed authorized Cheney to declassify secret materials at Cheney’s discretion, and that transfer of authority was actually permissible, Cheney may be off the hook, immunity or not. However, if Cheney did not have the authority to release this information, either because Bush could not delegate it or because the delegation was done after the fact, I’d argue immunity does not apply. This amounts to an intentional tort and the argument in favor of immunity fades if not evaporates.
Off topic:
Just saw HoJo’s attack on Ned. Flip/flop claims. “Who is Ned Lamont?”
(Fox61/Hartford, MLB lead-in)
Don’t seem all that effective to me. Lacks citiations. Just accusations, standing starkly naked to be called ‘empty and mean-spirited’ negative advertising. It might keep some of whatever his base IS from straying, and ‘on the reservation’, but I don’t see it ‘winning’ any votes. imho.
—-
Now, back to our online legal seminar…
To our jaundiced progressive eyes, the Bivens elements look easy to satisfy — bad faith and lack of a reasonable belief in the lawfulness of the agent’s acts. Sounds like a slam dunk when we’re talking about shit-weasels like Cheney and Rove. I fear, though, that we are all in for more disappointment. I read recently in an environmental law treatise that although Bivens has generated thousands of cases, the success rate hovers around .05%.
BarbaraB, 69: Thanks for the clarification, that makes sense.
Pootie Poot slaps down Chimpy and makes Bush the butt of a joke.
Listen to Bush’s response, he sounds like Dan Quayle after Lloyd Benson smacked him down.
P.S. I read that the Israelis had sent their troops into Lebanon and that they were taken prisoner by Hezbollah. Nice to use troops as pawns. Olmert is learning well from Der Chimpster.
http://images1.americanprogres.....20.240.mov
-GSD
Nice post, Attaturk!
Just OT and FYI — the NYTimes has a new article up about the Lieber-smooch:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07.....r=homepage
*ilson -
Got it. (will have to see how to execute the combined a/e on this WallStreet unit/OS X 10.2.8 aka ‘Jaguar’ - talk about old school…)
Mucho thanku. (It IS way cool…but Xerox PARC had their moments of cool, too, eh?)
*ilson -
“thernet” - I love that. Like “aesthetic”, it has that same ethereal ( aethereal ! ) quality.
OT but I mentioned my concern for a friend’s family in Lebanon (Beirut) the other day and I just received a very touching email which I thought I’d share. She’s over in France working on a film. Her name is Soula.
I’ll not judge the judges — thanks for that reminder, BarbaraB! — but I wonder if Judge Bates’ appointment to the FISA Court is as a replacement for that judge who resigned. Of course, FISA Court judge is kind of like being a testicle-inspector in the eunuch’s quarters, at least in this Administration, right? I mean, the FISA Court isn’t exactly INUNDATED with cases lately.
Regardless of the ruling in the GAO case, the whiff of “l’etat, c’est Veep” in the arguments Judge Bates found useful in his ruling that kept the Energy Task Force secret does make me pause — would this be good for the Wilson’s case, in that the Vice-President taking advice confidentially is not unlike the President so doing?
IANAL, obviously. It is my favorite acronym, though….
sort of like “æthelred the unready?”
æ is done by &.a.e.l.i.g.; without the dots
prof @ 9:10 am
Bork? Bork you say? Bork found no special protection for the VP? Ahhh… (Criley family luxuriates in the very thought of the potential here …)
We all know what happened to Spiro Agnew.
Rooting for Joe and Valerie, who had their world upended by these chumps.
Thanks Prof and thanks much to Attaturk, as well as to all who take time to impart legal knowledge that helps me get a glimpse at what this Bivens suit is about.
Question: The lawyer who spoke for the Wilsons yesterday was asked about John Does 1 through 10. If I remember this right, he indicated that this was a standard “placeholder” method for just 1 single person. Can anyone explain?
(I was hoping it would be the entire White House Iraq Group.)
Thanks again you legal eagles of FDL!
glc
Dunno what Asian language that is that y’all are demonstraing for us, but it sho is cute.
lotus: we are using real English before the damn Normans swooped in and adulterated the language with all that Frenchified stuff …
Plame was a government employee at the time, and remained with the CIA until recently. Her husband made a public statement in a NY Times editorial (thus he is at minimum a limited-purpose public figure, especially in light of his former role as an ambassador and the fact that he voluntarily submitted the editorial to the NY Times for publication). She, a government employee, was punished by the Bush administration for his editorial, via the “outing” of her and her brass-plate company. It is exactly this type of retaliation Garcetti permits as NOT a violation of the first amendment.
Bush as Foster Brooks
great post attaturk.
i certainly hope all the dirty laundry gets aired in public.
tho i’d been much happier with a rove indictment.
and hearings, congressional hearings.
Israel targeting the dangerous “tourist lighthouses”. Next up will be some Hezbollah windmills and a Hamas affiliated miniature golf-course.
Olmert was reported to have said: “I said “terrorist” targets not “tourist” targets.”
(Snip)
In the afternoon, Israeli forces hit central Beirut, striking the port and a lighthouse on a posh seafront boulevard, where people stroll in the evening or jog in the early mornings. It is a few hundred yards from the campus of the American University of Beirut. The seaport is adjacent to downtown Beirut, a disctrict rebuilt at a cost of billions of dollars after the 1975-1990 civil war.
-GSD
…”and hearings, congressional hearings.”
——
Quaint. Pre-coup thinking.
I apologize if this question has been asked. I’m catching up and don’t want to be EPU’d.
Re Attaturk @ 24:
The thing is, if Cheney or any constitutional officer is acting in a way that takes away a citizen’s constitutional rights, then that officer cannot as a matter of law be acting as a constitutional officer — isn’t that right? I’m not a lawyer, so I probably shouldn’t use terms like ‘as a matter of law.’
What I mean is: If the constitutional officer violates his or her oath and acts to deprive a citizen of his or her constitutional rights, then that officer is acting outside the scope of his or her office and immunity for such acts cannot apply.
It’s like not being able to claim insurance benefits when one has broken the law to cause the damage for which one then claims the insurance.
Right? Wrong?
Excellent, attaturk, this post was like a tasty meal, every morsel worth savoring. Christy, my compliments on providing such a fine chef.
Idle disjointed thoughts here, after reading Prof’s comment about the burr under the saddle of our democracy. I’ll point to Paine’s “the Law is King”. It seems to me that it is difficult to sue our “King” (the Law) per se since it is of, by and for the people, in theory. We change the Law, our King, whenever we believe it to be oppressive. IMO, the flaw in our democracy is that we’ve made inadequate allowance for dealing with gross negligence or acts borne of malice by folks who are not elected; our system allows for us to remove from office those that are elected, but for little else. But this is also a reflection of the change in our society since its earliest days; family name, family and personal honor are now quaint and rarely mentioned in our virtual, anonymous society where freedom means being invisible and “bowling alone”. In a smaller, more intimate society, one’s honor was far more important because people knew you, on sight.
The folks in OVP and WH could care less about us; they don’t know us. They believe they have been given a toolbox to use as they see fit and do so, regardless of the repurcussions to the rest of society. They do not know us — and when safely esconced in their pampering, sheltering, walled gardens of wealth, they are safe from ever having to know us and have their honor questioned.
Hence a discussion of immunity required here, outlining for us our limits in “touching” the agents we’ve hired or elected. We’ve protected them from us, but not so the reverse. They will not fully know the injury they have cause us and our agents.
Perhaps it’s time we changed the Law and our only recognized “King” once we have the power to do so?
GSD @ 63– Not only did Olmert pull that boner, but so did W. What an outrage inside of a horror. How come he didn’t scream bloody murder, ‘I have 25,000 Americans that must be protected’ and instead, dug himself a hole and perhaps many Americans a grave? How’s he gonna explain his stance to our other allies who also have their citizens there? I am against all of this collective punishment of ANYONE, but he could have expressed some concern for his people. That’s a few more than we lost on 9/11. How the hell are they gonna get out now that all routes are destroyed?
thanks for this, so much!
not a lawyer myself, but just one question:
you say that absolute immunity means you cannot sue an elected or appointed official for doing what they were elected to do.
does the wording of this immunity mean that the suit cannot be pursued for actions done WHILE in office, or for “doing WHAT they were elected to do”?
was the supreme court’s decision against clinton in the jones v clinton case based on the timing (filed prior to taking office), or against clinton’s argument that he should have immunity from lawsuits of a personal matter while in office?
my understanding was the latter; it was not the timing of the filing of the suit. the court ruled that clinton could not be immune from suits of a PERSONAL nature while in office.
was cheney elected to take out a personal vendetta against someone whose opinion he despised? was he elected to out a CIA agent?
i think not.
all of which makes interesting the fact that sources jason leopold is citing from the CIA, state dept, and WH referring to how cheney seemed “to take it PERSONALLY” that wilson was pursuing his niger story.
like i said, i’m not a lawyer, and have not read the actual text of the SC decision on jones v clinton, only reports.
but thought i’d ask.
Atta Turk - thanks for the primer sans legalese! And thanks Christy for knowing who to punt to! If I am not mistaken, won’t the real fun for spectators be the discovery? Even though Cheney will likely get a pass, the “blossom de merde” and Scoots will be deposed and that information will possibly yield the Cheney connection, and will be made public. While the MSM will, sadly, underplay, obfuscate, and under-report - nothing stops the public from diseminating the information.
Shailagh Murray, WaPo Congressional correspondent, chatz on WaPoO on Monday at 11am eastern. Questions can be submitted now at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....00880.html
GSD says: Israel targeting the dangerous “tourist lighthouses”. Next up will be some Hezbollah windmills and a Hamas affiliated miniature golf-course.
Hey GSD– Proof positive of the collaboration of Hezbollah and Hamas. The windmill was @ hole #8
on the miniature golf course at the Damascus Putt Putt.
&^%%$ )(&!
Wow, what a post! Including Redd’s lovely headnote. Attaturk, I’m blown away. Like finding out Chris Rock is also Albert Einstein.
The Wilsons and their legal eagles know exactly what they’re doing. Political and legal.