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[This is a topic that comes up over and over again in any discussion of religion and politics and...well, pretty much any topic that touches on either issue. Like most progressives, I am sick and tired of the "hate the gays" meme being trotted out every election cycle (which is pretty much every two years, like clockwork...). But how to cut into its effectiveness with Theocons is a tough question. I do think that it has lost much of its stir up the base lustre, but we won't know for sure until the election. Until then, using discussion to open up a closed mind to a ray of sunshine can work miracles sometimes, so this will have to be a start. -- CHS]
In trying to talk about same-sex marriage with those on the religious and political right, it's easy to get stuck. I've got my way of reading the Bible, you've got yours, and they've got theirs. I think X about history, you think Y, and they think Z. Instead of focusing on the two men or two women who want to get married, the gay or lesbian couple dissappear and the conversation turns into the discussion of an "issue", or worse, a "problem."
Enter the Spanish Inquisition.
What? You didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition? That's OK - Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
I love Monty Python. In my humble opinion, good, rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off humor is an indispensable part of life. Few people I have never met in person have brought more joy and laughter to my life than Michael Palin, John Cleese, Eric Idle, and Co. Humor is a way in which we connect with others and get through the pain and discomfort in the world. In laughing together, we recognize our shared humanity, the brokenness in the world, and our willingness to face it together. Which brings me to marriage, especially same-sex marriage.
The TheoCon view of marriage is built around power and gender roles. Their chief problem with same-sex marriage is that they can't figure out who wears the pants in the family. Someone's got to be in charge - and (by their theological lights) that's the job of the man of the house. This is why TheoCons (especially the male variety) are rightly threatened by same-sex marriage. If Larry and Barry can marry, then marriage isn't about preserving gender roles, with manly men providing for the family and meek women being the submissive nurturers at home, barefoot and pregnant. "Horrors!" thinks the TheoCon man. "What if my wife finds out about that? How will I keep her in line?" It gets even worse, if he thinks about himself: "What if they're right? What then is my role in a marriage?"
The greatest gift of the GLBT community to the straight community in this debate around same-sex marriage is the focus on partnership. The whole Genesis 2 story of creation, around which so many on the right build their odd view of marriage, is not at all about gender and gender roles. It's really about the difference between companions and partners. A dog is a companion. A cat is a companion. A giraffe is a companion. According to the story, God made all the animals, brought them all to the man to deal with his loneliness, but none of them sufficied. But another human being . . . that's a partner! Interestingly, the history of English translations of this story mirrors the TheoCon/Progressive debates here. Older translations like the King James Version of Genesis 2 says the woman is to be a "helper" (or some similar word) for the man; the New Revised Standard Version more properly translates the Hebrew of this passage as "partner."
Among our chief tools for talking with TheoCons about same-sex marriage is humor. If we can't hold the conversation and laugh along the way, we've got nothing. We'll end up arguing and fighting, leaving both sides bloodied and beaten. But if we can laugh . . . then we've got something. Humor exposes self-satistfaction and sanctimony, and also points up logical fallicies, strained analogies, and other obstacles to understanding. In this discussion, that gives us progressives a huge advantage.
If you want to talk with a TheoCon about same-sex marriage, do yourself and your TheoCon friend a favor: first sit down ("Bring out the comfy chair!"), and watch Robin Williams, Nathan Lane, Gene Hackman, and Dianne Wiest in Mike Nichols' 1996 version of The Bird Cage. All the issues of marriage are there, in both couples, holding up a mirror to all our relationships. After the movie's done, then you're ready to talk.
Let's face it: sex is not just fun, but funny. Back in 1993, as my relatively moderate Lutheran churchbody was debating a possible social statement on human sexuality, Lutheran ethicist Larry Rasmussen of Union Seminary in New York City spoke at a conference dedicated to the draft statement. Though the subject was serious, Rasmussen made his substantive points with a good dose of humor along the way, like this:
Sexuality, like all God's best gifts, is both strange enough and silly enough that not to howl about it is to live wide of God's own considerable sense of humor. The same untapped corner of God's imagination Gary Larson uses for "Far Side" cartoons is surely the corner God was playing in when sexuality was crafted as the most interesting of all ways to meet the neighbors and to get from one generation to the next.
Garrison Keillor's concocted commencement address put me in mind of all this. . . .[Keillor said] "Laughter is what proves your humanity, and the ability to give a terrific party is a sign of true class. When Moses came down from the mountain with the clay tablets, he said, "Folks, I was able to talk him down to ten. Unfortunately, we had to leave adultery in there, but you'll notice that solemnity was taken out." And that night the Israelites killed the fatted calf and drank wine and told old Bible jokes in celebration.
Let's hear it for leaving solemnity out of the list of sins. (Punaise, you're off the hook.)
The whole "gays can't reproduce, so they can't get married" argument cries out for satire and humor, as does the "children need a mother and a father, so same-sex marriage can't be allowed" argument. If these arguments are true, then a few "modest proposals" for legislation "safeguarding marriage" based on this logic may be called for:
- Women and men who are infertile shall be barred from recieving a marriage license.
- A marriage without children shall be deemed to have come to an end when the woman reaches menopause, or when either partner becomes infertile after being married (i.e., develops a medical condition or undergoes a procedure that precludes having children, such as a complete hysterectomy, treatment for testicular cancer, etc.). Exceptions shall be made for couples who adopt children within 60 days of one member of the couple being diagnosed as infertile.
- Because having both a father and a mother are so important for children, if one member of a couple dies, leaving behind minor children, the surviving spouse shall have 60 days in which to remarry. Should the spouse not remarry, then the children shall be removed from the surviving parent and adopted into a family that can provide both a father and a mother for them.
- Should a husband or wife be disabled, placed on life support, or otherwise absent from the home for an extended period of time, the children shall be placed in foster care for the duration of the absence.
I don't know what Jonathan Swift would have thought of same-sex marriage, but I think he'd have a lot of fun with the twisted logic that gets employed to oppose it.
Religiously speaking, marriage is a secular arrangement. I'm not talking about the fact that licenses are granted by the state and not the church, but about the general theology of marriage and the church. First of all, in most Christian and Jewish circles (and perhaps in other religions with which I am much less familiar), the two people getting married actually "marry" each other through the promises they make to one another. The priest/pastor/rabbi is there not to marry the couple, but to witness their promises, to invite the support of the community, and to ask for God's blessings upon it. Promises by the couple make the marriage, not the prayers spoken along with the promises. The corollary is this: Christians may (and do) get married, but there is no such thing as "Christian marriage." Second, no religious official can be forced to perform a wedding they are opposed to. As a pastor, I require a couple to meet with me three times prior to the wedding. If that's too much of a burden for the couple, they are free to go elsewhere to be married, but I won't do the wedding, and no one can force me to do otherwise. Not my bishop, and not the government. I can't prevent them from being married elsewhere, but no one can demand that I be part of it. Third, religious groups are free to keep their own definitions of what makes a "proper" marriage, without forcing those definitions on the rest of society. The easiest example to point to is the Roman Catholic church. By Roman Catholic doctrine, the church does not allow people who have been married and divorced to be married a second time while the first spouse is still alive. (An annulment is a statement by the church that the first marriage was somehow canonically "defective" and thus never really happened. It's not a divorce.) The Catholic church does not say that those who remarry are not really married, but that these remarriages are not something they think God approves of, and they do not wish to have the church associated with them.
Not all religious folks walk the Dobson/Pope Benedict/TheoCon line when it comes to same-sex marriage, even within their own faith traditions. Some groups are much more open to GLBTs, not only welcoming them as members but ordaining them as ministers, like the United Church of Christ and the Unitarian Universalist Association. But even in other less open Christian denominations, there are groups working for change, like More Light Churches (Presbyterian), Lutherans Concerned/North America (Lutheran), Integrity (Episcopal), Dignity USA (Roman Catholic), and Reconciling Ministries Network (Methodist). An ecumenical, interfaith group called Soulforce takes the prinicples of non-violent resistance embodied by Ghandi and Martin Luther King and applies them to the struggle for freedom from religious and political oppression based on sexual orientation.
Once upon a time, a marriage between a Swedish Lutheran and a Norwegian Lutheran was a great source of scandal. Once upon a time, the marriage between a Catholic and a Methodist would have caused an uproar in the community. Once upon a time, the marriage of an African-American to a European-American would be viewed as a threat to children and society. One of these days, I believe that someone's going to say "Once upon a time, the marriage of two people of the same gender was seen as scandalous" and the hearers of that story will scratch their heads and say "Wow - how could anyone have been offended by that?" I just pray that that day comes soon.
When I worry about marriage, it's not same-sex marriage that scares me. No, I get scared by the commercialization of marriage, like the 3 inch thick copies of Bride magazine with their checklists and budgets and timelines and ads for everything needed for a storybook wedding. I am frightened by Vegas wedding chapels and celebrity drive-by weddings. I am appalled at folks who are going into their umteenth marriage without having figured out what went wrong with the many marriages that preceeded it. I am bewildered by folks who have just left school with huge educational debts who want to add $15,000 or more of wedding debt on top of it. "Who Wants to Marry A Millionnaire?" was a danger to marriage; Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon, partners for over 50 years, are a tribute to it.
Thank God for Monty Python, Gary Larson, The Bird Cage, and leaving solemnity out of the ten commandments. When it comes to talking with TheoCons about same-sex marriage, honest humor is the best tool for prying open closed minds, about marriage, relationships, and life in general.
So, have you heard any great jokes lately?
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Great post …Thanks!
Hello?
Hey Larry!
Folks will get here soon enough. Of course, there’s more than a little to read up there before the comments come trickling in . . .
What, we are supposed to read it?
Beautiful post, Peterr! Deserves the widest circulation possible, and may well become a classic, I predict.
Larry @ 4
As I understand things, that’s what sets firepups off from Freepers and such.
Wisconsin will be the first state to reject a same-sex marriage amendment. The polling is a dead heat now, the vote is in November.
Thanks so much for doing this post, Peterr. I have so many dear friends that are dealing with hatred and worse from family and former friends after coming out. To think that two people who love each other and are in a lifetime committed relationship would not be allowed to be in each others’ hospital ICU room for comfort, or take their children to the doctor with equal rights, or anything else without going through lots of legal wrangling is so sad. It’s time we recognized that love is love. That you fall in love with someone’s soul, no matter the wrapper in which it comes. SIGH
Peterr,
I have been ranting about this for years its what I call the wedding mirage…..
and your 6….well I am too old to be a pup,
however this dog still hunts
Brilliant!! Thank you!!
When my wife and I gote engaged, oh so long ago, we sat down with her parents, strict Catholics, to talk about things.
Along the way, her mother started talking about the troubles that faced mixed marriages, and how she’d seen that mixed marriages almost never survive, and so on.
WTH? At first, I thought she was rambling. After all, I’m as caucasian (German heritage) as my wife is.
When my future MIL started saying things along the line of “…but I can see that your marriage will be OK, not like those other mixed marriages…” I found myself looking at my hands, next to my fiancee’s.. What does Shirley see there? I was getting mighty confused.
But then the conversation veered directly into religion, and the proverbial light bulb popped on over my head.
Of course! I was raised Lutheran, and they were Catholic! Mixed, indeed!
Funny to me to think of how important these fabricated distinctions can be.
The Reverend Mr. Rove looks positively Cherubic. Darkblack amazes again!
I spent the day in Boston yesterday. Part if it with Roots Project folks at Kennedy’s office but the bigger part at the State House where we were standing out in front doing our singing shouting and laughing while the “other side” was doing the same, sans laughing. Wrote about it on my web page.
But what I forgot to write was that the folks on the other side of the street a) had a really hard time cracking a smile. They were SO somber and angry and b) most of those across the street were bussed in from somewhere, looked like maybe a phillipino community. Two years ago the same thing happened, Then, they mostly had their eyes closed and prayed a lot, few of them seemed to speak English. I’m not at all about immigrant bashing, open up the borders, I say, but it is curious that the “huge popular support” for supposedly letting the people vote is not demonstrated visibly in the demonstrations.
While we had quite a few clergy in our ranks with our hot collars on, didn’t see a sign of a priest or minister across the street anywhere. Curious.
Ahh, Peterr — I can only repeat what I’ve told you before.
You are a treasure.
Your presence blesses us.
Noonan @ 7
Out here in CA, an editorial in Monday’s SF Chronicle said that
The bill that was vetoed was the first in the nation to pass a state legislature. Phil Angelides, the democratic nominee running against Ahnold for governor, has pledged to sign the bill if it passes again after he is elected.
Women and men who are infertile shall be barred from recieving a marriage license.
Proposed method of proof: the woman must be pregnant when the license is applied for. (DNA test to prove paternity is optional.)
If they’re going to insist that the only reason for marriage is procreation, then they should also be in favor of premarital sex, because how else will they know the couple can have kids?
Ain’t logic fun, when you take it to absurdity?
Great Post Peterr. Glad you’re here.
I look at this ridiculousness, the anti-contraception stance, and the anti-choice argument as stemming from a simple construct.
Population=Domination
Moderate changes in birthrate can have profound effects on population over 100 years. When you’re building an army (or a majority) that’s very important.
The leaders of early christianity knew this, the leaders of today’s eveangelical movement know this, but it is too honest and won’t sell.
So, the way to “package” it is to make it “god’s law”. We all know this is hooey, but when has that ever stopped them before?
Oh, that and they’re afraid of getting a bit loaded and finding some guys c*ck in their mouth (did I say that outloud??!!)
Anyway, keep it up.
The fundies and their greek chorus are not concerned about marriage. Marriage is the cover story.
Their agenda is to continue the doctrine that it is not OK to be gay. Period. If they give an inch on same sex marriage, then little johnnie will get the message that it is OK to be gay. The horror. Instead, they must continue to shame and stigmatize gay citizens because that is their way of controlling how little johnnie views his own sexual orientation.
It’s not about marriage. It’s about shame. Something religious leaders have been good at for many centuries.
AWESOME post!!! I’m sharing this all around.
Peterr - a great and rational post, which blasts all to hell the arguments that theocons make about the “threats” to “traditional” marriage.
I’m afraid, though, that theocons see nothing humorous about same-sex relationships, and trying to make them laugh about it is a risky endeavor, as most of them appear to be on the verge of total meltdown on the subject.
Yes, it’s different, and yes, it can be difficult for straight people to grasp, especially those who see nothing at all normal about any of it, much less two people of the same sex wishing to make a life-long commitment to each other.
As a woman in a traditional marriage - my husband is is man - I do not understnd the concept of “threat” that is supposed to be posed by gay marriage. Last I checked, no one is in danger of being forced to marry anyone. No one is going to knock on the door and introduce anyone to their new gay fiance.
I think if those whose mission in life is the ruination and prohibition of the relationships of gay people would spend half as much time on the quality of their own, actual relationships, marriages and families, perhaps the divorce rate among traditional couples would begin to decline, and life, in general would be much more civil and respectful.
Politics you can get people to laugh about, but anyone confronting a rabid theocon with humor on the subject of gay marriage had better go in wearing full body armor and a helmet, just in case.
Its hard to crack a smile when they rule that your family is not fit, and refuse to give you the rights and respect you deserve.
It would be nice to have a post about gay marriage and family from, you know, someone who is gay? But thanks for the support.
lotus @ 14
Thanks, and like all good blessings, it’s mutual. This is a great place to hang out.
Thanks for this, Peterr… I’d love to hear you preach sometime. I’d also encourage you to publish this and other thoughts on that ancient and honorable medium–you know–what’s it called?–made out of trees and stuff–biodegradable? Oh yes.. a book..that’s it. Write a book, and if you already have… Let us know. o.k.?
Peterr,
Perhaps I have missed mention of it before…but do you have your own blog and if so— would you point me to it?
Thanks.
Larry
Peterr, when you said you were “working on something” the other day, you weren’t kidding, were you? Very nice post.
Barbaro update (just glimpsed on muted CNN):
Vet: Barbaro’s laminitis “as bad as it can get.”
Nooooo! Not the comfy chair!
Good news, sister who had thyroid cancer last year at 44 has clean scan. Woo! Woo! Woo!
Peterr — I tried so hard to find a picture of Gene Hackman and Nathan Lane dancing together in that scene after dinner in The Birdcage, when Lane is in his “Barbara Bush” drag outfit. I love that scene, where his wig starts to slip off…hehehehe…but I couldn’t find a screen grab anywhere online. (And truly, the whole movie is very fun, so if anyone has managed to miss it, it is worth a video rental and then some…the Hackman character in drag at the end alone is hilarious. “No one wants to dance with me…”)
Darkblack really came through for me on a substitute graphic, though. :)
WOOT! egregious and sister!!! Beautiful!
OT: lotus - sorry the salon link didn’t work for you last night. try getting in through www.salon.com. it’s the front page headliner piece.
egregious at 29 — FANTASTIC news! Yay for your sister, for you and your whole family! :)
Thanks, pun — will try it directly.
great news egregious. woohoo!
yay for egregious and sis….
30/40 years ago, gay bars were located in the seediest industrial areas down by the docks - the police would cruise the parking lots collecting up license plate numbers…. things for gay people were about as oppressive as it can get in a “free” society…
I am constantly amazed at how far we have come…
and yet, why has it taken so long?
Larry @ 25,
Nope, no blog of my own, nor even any plans for one (at least not yet). Life’s a bit too up in the air to take on something like that for me right now. Add to that the fact that I’ve only got dialup access, and tying up the phones for great lengths of time on a regular basis makes that a complete no-no. All I’ve got are the comments I drop in here and elsewhere, as well as the occasional post like this.
Doing these posts gives me greater respect for the work that Christy, Jane, and the other posters around here do. Knowing how closely folks around here read them makes this occasional contributor take the privilege of posting very seriously.
If/when I ever do set up a blog, you’ll see it in the signature ID at “Peterr says“).
Nice post. I’ve been arguing for years that the state has no authority to sanction anything other than a civil union in the first place, so the whole argument about gay marriage is idiotic semantics. I certainly can’t get as many laughs with my analysis as Eric Idle and John Cleese can, so I just move on and tell fart jokes at the children’s table.
peace,
jim “one shed” preston
Peterr– what a wonderful post and thank you for sharing it with us.
People who partner up and share their lives and care and love one another live longer and happier lives. It’s a fact. I want a world with happy and fulfilled people who care for one another. Why do so many spend so much time hating, fearing, and trying to control others’ lives? Well, I think it gives them a reason not to deal with the real problems we humans face– climate crisis, bad government, world famine and hunger and disease and war. No religion that I know of advocates turning our backs on those issues. In fact, the bulk of the teachings of every belief system speak to caring for one another and the planet and ourselves.
Thanks again, Peterr. Love Monty Python and the Birdcage as well.
Great news, egregious!
OT– these JAGS testifying are pretty darn fine men at the Armed Services Cmte hearing.
Birdcage and before it La Cage au Folles was brilliant in showing off society’s hypocrisy. It’s too bad that the message didn’t get internalized. Because it was so funny, the “straight” characters were shown for dolts. Yes, humor is a beginning, but personal stories are what will change minds and hearts.
This is from an e-mail I got several years ago from a couple for whom I performed a civil union in VT
It’s these conversations that will turn the tide.
Great news egregious!
Been through that scare myself long ago. Glad your sister has a clean scan.
A beautiful, spreading ring of happy sharing, that, RevDeb. Thank you for including us in it.
actually OldCoastie, things ’snapped’ wide open in the 70s. we all got sidetracked in the 80s by AIDS. by the 90s, the wingers were attacking back bigtime with the manufactured “gay marriage” issue. That was not an initiative from the GLBT community. nevertheless, the battle has been joined and things are turning around …
PS: my first ‘radical’ activity was in one of the first ever Gay Pride Parades in 1970 … I’ve never stopped marching …
OldCoastie @ 37, RevDeb @ 41
The generational thing combined with the personal stories will drive this debate in the coming years. Consider this: more and more of today’s generation of high school students - the newest voters on the block - grew up with Pride parades in their town and gay/straight alliances in their high schools.
There’s a thought for a local roots project effort: getting these first-time eligible voters to register and get to the polls.
Peter…thanks for your 38
Gotta go …work is so disruptive at times.*g*
….ya’ll be good
Larry
OT– What solar system is Jeff Sessions FROM, anyhow? Waaay far from here . . .
Peterr: Great post! Another great movie is To Wong Foo Thanks For Everything, Julie Newmar - Patrick Swayze, Wesley Snipes, and John Leguizamo as transvestites. Fabulous!
I have friends and family who are gay/lesbian. 20-some years ago, one cousin took me with him when he went to tell our grandmother, for support. He was terrified, sure she’d either keel over and die, or else disown him. So, he tells her he’s gay. She nods and asks if he’d like butter for his mashed potatoes. Thinking she didn’t understand, he says, “Gramma, I’m a homosexual.” Gramma never bats an eye. She just replies, “Yeah, and you’ve got your mother’s eyes, too. So what?”
I pray for a day when every GLBT person is told, “So what?”
Lina: Absolutely!! It’s not about marriage, it’s about whether or not it’s okay to be gay. If it’s okay, then other things might be okay, and if those things are okay (gasp!) they might be wrong.
I do have a lot of hope for these kids…
Great post. And speaking of graphics, I think a single graphic of SpongeBob and Patrick in wedding gowns at the altar, with Tinky Winky, Bugs Bunny in drag, etc witnessing, would be a great device for humor and sly/gentle ridicule both.
(hey, *ilson referred to me as fdldyke! *giggle*)
And finally read Redd’s “shoes” post from yesterday - man, every word so powerful, beautiful, righteous — !!
Absolutely brilliant & fun to read.
Love “they can’t figure out who wears the pants in the family.”
Sex is silly? God forbid or so they think.
I’d feel a lot more sorry for theocons if they weren’t so dangerous. They want everyone else to be as miserable as they are.
Let’s hear it for leaving solemnity out of the list of sins. (Punaise, you’re off the hook.)
aww, shucks, Peterr - just the other day I was going on and on about gravitas. Of course, that was in the context of a verbal food fight in Latin.
great post. :~)
you know i always want to tell the theocons this: if you don’t want the gays going out and doing gay things, isn’t it better to have them at home married?
DUCK! punaise fixin’ to toss gravy!
Peterr, you are right. It’s about power, and always has been: the church over the state, the state over the church, the church over the individual, the state over the individual, one individual over another. The thing is, what makes this social construction of reality attractive to some people and not to others?
punaise -
Don’t let the gravitas get you down.
note to self: lighten up….
Great article, but your cats must be different than mine.
sofistic, were you around (night before last?) when we were oooing & wowin’ about John Dean’s new book? It lays out research over the last many decades that suggests conservatives are inordinately attracted to/needy for authority. Check those threads from Tuesday PM for much more.
Peterr,
Although I like the post, I’m a little skeptical. I haven’t had too much experience, but the proto-Theocons that I have met didn’t really have a sense of humor I could connect with. (One guy I knew was given tix to Les Mis, and was so horrified by its scandalous portrayal of the bar scene, he and his wife left.)
But that’s not really the point. I think there’s a big difference between true Theocons and lots of regular Americans who are a little more conservative than we find here, and are uncomfortable with gay marriage.
True Theocons are going to drink the Kool-Aid, listen to Dobson and Tony Perkins, and really see some kind of slippery slope from gay marriage to Total Moral Collapse. I don’t think we’ll convince them for a long time.
Lots of Catholics, though, are going to follow the Church on this issue, and they don’t really count as Theocons in my book … I don’t think the Church is trying to write itsel f into legal power in the way Dominionists are (though they may make useful allies in some fights, like over abortion).
They’re part of a larger group, methinks … conservative or traditional Americans who just aren’t comfortable with gay marriage. I think that over time, many members of this group will grow more accepting, and come round. Three reasons:
1.) Time is on our side. The younger generations are much more accepting of the idea than older ones.
2.) Eventually, people will have to admit to themselves that there is no rational, logical argument for discriminating against gays this way. All the reasons cited are usually disproven already within heterosexual marriage (i.e., childless couples, older couples marrying, infertile couples, high rates of divorce, etc.), and there’s no real grounds to this “threat” idea.
3.) Personalization. FDL has talked about this before. As more people realize that this problem affects real people–your neighbors, coworkers, family members–they’ll have a harder time rationalizing the discrimination. I think for every media campaign in support of gay marriage, they need to have real-life people who encounter real-life problems explain how this hurts their families. It’s easier to be against “teh gays” than it is to be against Melinda and Margaret and their kids.
I think “The Birdcage” and humor could be effective with the latter group, but not with true Theocons, who are immune to logic.
Sorry for the long post!
Lotus, yes I was around for that discussion, and I did see the interview with Dean on Olberman, but I still want to drill deeper than the authoritarian personality and get something even deeper than that, perhaps in how someone has insecurities at a young age that require comfort by having an authoritarian view of life. Don’t know how to frame the question, but I think it goes much deeper than authoritarianism.
sofistic @ 55
I think the attraction is twofold. First, most folks would rather have power than not have power. You could be talking about financial power, social power, physical strength, or any other way we think about power. Second, a lot of folks are attracted to social setups that provide a sense of order.
At times, I’m mystified by women in what I’ll call hyper-traditional marriages. The closest I can come to understanding the attraction these relationships hold for them is this: “OK, so I’m oppressed, but there’s an order to my world. Better the evil I know than the evil and chaos I don’t.”
Translate it to politics and away from marriage, and you’re talking about why folks who claim to hate intrusive government are willing to support the most monarchical executive this nation’s had since . . . well, mad King George III. They are willing to trade security for power, and will end up with neither.
Why do some folks go for this deal and others don’t? PT Barnum said it best: there’s one born every minute. We keep tryin’ to educate them though . . .
Maybe OT, but Terry Gross interviews Soros today on Fresh Air.
Neocons should be forced to listen to Lewis Black’s bits on gay marriage (as well as on everything else).
Speaking of which, his latest release (at Carnegie Hall; not his best) includes a four-minute bit on exactly how gays threaten America. Since Santorum won’t explain it, Lewis does. It boils down to a one-sentence punch line, but I can’t give it.
Longtime Python fan. Black does it for me today. Black moods, Black humor.
Not surprising that Python allowed for such widespread understanding via humor: Graham Chapman came out in the 1970s, and I believe his ‘longtime companion’, David Sherlock, is listed at least once in the Flying Circus credits as “Mrs. Graham Chapman.”
Haven’t found a link yet to back up that, but here’s Wikipedia:
Among Chapman’s best friends were Keith Moon of The Who, singer Harry Nilsson, and Beatle Ringo Starr. Chapman was an alcoholic in the 1970s, and he also kept his homosexuality a secret until the middle of that decade (although his fellow Pythons were already aware of his sexual orientation) when he famously came out on a chat show hosted by British jazz musician George Melly, thus becoming one of the first celebrities to do so. Several days later, he came out to a group of friends at a party held at his home in Belsize Park where he officially introduced them to his partner, David Sherlock. Afterwards, he became a vocal spokesman on gay rights.
I wish it were this simple, that it would be a matter of humor or the passing of time. Time will surely help as it trudges along, but look how much still must be done in any form of discrimination in this country; we still have suppression of voters by race, still have women denied equality in medical care and in professional lives, still have persons persecuted for their religion or culture.
There is something primal about “the other” that we are not addressing; humor can make the conscious, rational human realize that “the other” faces them in the mirror, but the subconscious and unconscious remain little fazed. Time does wear away at the conscious below decks, but it does not always do so before the bias buried there has passed on its memetic viral load to another generation or two.
We had a chance to change the unconscious and subconscious in this country immediately after 9/11; our minds and hearts were cracked wide open, available to suggestion, but unfortunately we had the wrong sorts of people manipulating us, increasing our buried fears of “the other” in our society instead of assuaging those fears. It is imperative that we have a national conversation about this process, about the kinds of people who lead and how they must lead if in the wake of another catastrophe we are open to deep change.
Katrina is an example of a catastrophe that did begin to change our buried fears; many on the right had their eyes opened after the long torpor following 9/11, realizing that the promise of safety was illusion. In the wake of another Katrina sure to come, will we be able to muster the power to change for the benefit of our society? Or will we drift along as we did in slow-moving shock post-Katrina?
I regret not doing this myself when the door opened to a family member’s mind last year: I should have asked them after they spouted about “the gay agenda” whether their same-sex neighbors they cared about so much were a bigger threat than the government’s failure to respond in the wake of Katrina or Medicare D.
way OT - Israel and Lebanon are really lobbing bombs and rockets at each other now
OT —
Barbaro fighting for his life
Derby winner develops potentially fatal disease
Updated: Thursday July 13, 2006 11:43AM
KENNETT SQUARE, Pa. (AP) — Kentucky Derby winner Barbaro was fighting for his life Thursday after developing a severe case of laminitis, a potentially fatal disease brought on by uneven weight distribution in the limbs.
Dean Richardson, the chief surgeon who has been treating Barbaro since the colt suffered catastrophic injuries in the Preakness on May 20, called the Derby winner’s chances of survival “poor.”
“I’d be lying if I said anything other than poor,” Richardson said Thursday at a news conference at the University of Pennsylvania’s New Bolton Center. “As long as the horse is not suffering, we’re going to continue to try (to save him).
. . .
Respectful Dissent @ 60
Great comments! Let me take one thing you said and run with it a bit more.
The Catholic church in the US has trouble holding firm to the party line from Rome, precisely because of the third reason you cite. Too many good mass-attending Catholics know too many gay organists, choir directors, and other relatively visible leaders in the church who are good and faithful Catholics themselves. These otherwise conservative folks are not able to accept the Vatican’s equating children raised in a gay or lesbian household with children who are raped and abused. Personalization will trump demonization like this, and most RC priests I know are unwilling to go down the road the Vatican has laid out on this issue. I’m not saying they’re going to preside at gay unions in violation of the church’s official position, but they’re not going to lead the fight against them either.
OT too, if interested there is a chat going on with Michael Young live from Beirut.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....00688.html
A comedian named Paul Nardizzi has a very funny bit on gay marriage.
“A lot of talk about gay marriage. I have to say, I have four sons and I am concerned about it. If gay weddings are legalized there is a chance that I will have to pay for a wedding.”
-GSD
S A V E
M A R R I A G E
B A N
D I V O R C E
*ilson said:
“That was not an initiative from the GLBT community. nevertheless, the battle has been joined and things are turning around”
Israel and Lebanon are really lobbing bombs and rockets at each other now
Lebanon is not lobbing anything at anybody — it is getting lobbed by a modern Navy and Air Force and Artillery of Israel. Yes, a few Hezbollah militants are shooting homemade rockets into Israel but the State of Israel is attacking targets all over the territory of Lebanon … kinda like Goliath dropping boulders on lil David …
Once upon a time, a marriage between a Swedish Lutheran and a Norwegian Lutheran was a great source of scandal. Once upon a time, the marriage between a Catholic and a Methodist would have caused an uproar in the community. Once upon a time, the marriage of an African-American to a European-American would be viewed as a threat to children and society.
The funny thing about social norms is that they’re always in flux, and always have been. Yet, at any given moment, they’re perceived as eternal and inviolable.
A hundred years ago, people would talk if an unmarried man and woman had a meal together. Today, unmarried men and women go away to weeklong business conferences and nobody blinks an eye. As recently as thirty years ago, “living in sin” with a POSSLQ could get you fired. Now it’s pretty ho-hum. Today, an unmarried man gets caught with Viagra and even though he’s a raving conservative, nobody cares.
The times ARE a-changing. It may not be apparent in the day-to-day, but taking a longer view - we are winning bigtime, and the goopers are losing, on every single issue we care about. The tide of history is on our side. We won’t win every battle, and over the last half dozen years, yes, we’ve suffered more than a few setbacks. But the trend is our friend. Stepping back for a moment and looking at the longer view is a wonderfully energizing exercise.
I’ve felt for some time that part of what’s been going on with the right wing in this country is … panic. Look at the tools and messages that are used to whip them into a frenzy. Deep down, they know they’re losing. They know in their gut that this is their last stand, their last chance. This is their Alamo. Do or die. That’s why the Karl Roves of this world don’t care if they tear the country apart. Deep down they know that’s the only way they have any chance to hang on to anything. Otherwise, they’ll lose it all.
And they are losing it all. It may not be apparent in the short term, but it’s true and don’t you forget it. They’re trying to hold back the tide, and that just don’t work.
Yes, we have to fight every battle, and fight hard. But we are winning this war. Don’t doubt it for a second.
Lebanon may only be using bottle rockets, but it doesn’t seem like Israel needs much of an excuse…
I thought that Snagglepuss came out pubicly before the Monty Python dude. Maybe I am mistaken.
-GSD
“So, have you heard any great jokes lately?”
“The Bush administration renewed its call for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. So I guess they feel the only time that guys should be on top of each other naked is in an Iraqi prison.” —Jay Leno
“The anti-gay marriage amendment: The president endorsed it. The Senate discussed it. I’m pretty sure Jerry Falwell masturbated to it.” –Jon Stewart
“Big vote in the Senate yesterday. They voted down the gay marriage ban. … It was a very close vote. 43 voted ‘yea.’ 44 voted ‘nay.’ And 3 voted ‘fabulous.’” –David Letterman
“As you know, President Bush is calling for a constitutional amendment against gay marriage, or as President Bush calls it, ‘Leave That Fellas Behind.’” –Jay Leno
“A Senate committee on Thursday approved a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage, apparently forgetting that our forefathers wore wigs and satin Capri pants.” –Tina Fey
Great post, Peterr.
Fine post, Peterr
RevDeb — don’t know whether you saw this a.m. Metro, Boston version,. . .
http://boston.metro.us/
. . . but the front page had an “interesting” picture related to the demonstrations in front of the Ma. Capitol building. Unfortunately, they’ve replace it, as you see in the link.
IIRC, the original picture showed a young woman protester, who was apparently opposed to same-sex marriage. She was wearing a campaign-style button that had several words, such as Honor Marriage, Man Woman, with little guy/girl icons, etc. Nothing unusual about that.
But what was intersting was the fact that she was wearing a Catholic nun’s habit. Other people on the “T” who were looking at the same picture were all smiling and pointing out the incongruity. Peterr’s right about the humor, even when it’s unintended.
Rayne @ 66
It certainly isn’t simple, nor a question of just finding the right best joke. But humor - laughing with, not laughing at - is a way of giving “the other” a face, and can be a beginning to some of the tough conversations we need to be having.
We still have prejudice, hatred, and violence - you’re right. But we also have more and more laws and policies that try to protect and defend the oppressed than we’ve had in the past.
Peter, thank you for the salute to Del and Phyllis, pioneers in our community for longer than I’ve been alive.
My fiance and I have been engaged since the heady Winter of Love our mayor started years ago. We got engaged on Friday the Thirteenth of February, me down on one knee and everything! Then the court said we couldn’t marry. So, like heterosexual Oscar-winner Charlize Theron, we’re betrothed, and waiting for the state to legitimize our union. Limbo!
The humor of our waiting lawfully for the law to catch up is sometimes eclipsed when I publicly refer to the man I adore as “my fiance.” Folks hereabouts then ask whether we’ve set a date. I have to respond — as does Charlize — that we’ll marry when all Californians can.
Phil Angelides promises to sign my Assemblyman Mark Leno’s bill legalizing our nuptials.
Californians, please talk to a neighbor today about Phil. The Terminator must be Terminated from his job.
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Had Enough?
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PS See how handy this slogan is?
Peterr,
I get your points, but I think that you miss the bigger issue. Why is it okay for us to deny rights to one group of citizens? As you say, marriage is a secular thing.
Even the thread buys into the frame of “gay marriage”. It is a pernicious frame because by saying those two words together, you are instantly inflaming those that feel most threatened.
What we should be saying to our Theocon associates is: “Do you think it is okay to take away rights from someone, just because we don’t like their behavior? What if they did not like your religion and were the majority, is it okay for them to say that you were not going to be allowed to make any kind of business contract, because it is felt that Evangelicals will not deal fairly with those that do not share their beliefs, would that be okay?”
This gets at the heart of the issue. We are denying citizens of their rights because a majority thinks that what they do in their personal life is icky. We can not allow that to happen.
One of the best things that democracy does is protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. If one citizens rights are abridged by the majority, then we all are at risk. Sure, right now the Religious Right is ascendant, but that never lasts. They could be the ones fighting for the same treatment as other citizens, some time down the road.
*ilson said:
“That was not an initiative from the GLBT community. nevertheless, the battle has been joined and things are turning around”
Exactly.
Back in the late 80s a group of gay friends and I sat around talking about marriage. Most of us were opposed to gay “marriage”, purely on the grounds that it was a weird, anachronistic method of transferring property. I was in favor of it being legal for those that wanted it however, just as a civil rights issue. Only one of our crew wanted to officially “marry” his partner someday. None of us seriously imagined that it would ever be legalized before we were all in our 80s (we were in our 20s then).
Wingnuttia has brought this issue to the fore as a base rallying tactic, and it has come back to bite them on the ass.
I’m no longer opposed to getting married myself personally, but I certainly can’t picture myself poring over the pages of “Bride” magazine lol.
As for humor, one of the better comments I have ever seen was here:
If you really want people of the same gender to stop having sex
let them marry.
Jim Preston I’ve said it before and I guess I’ll be saying it untilI’m blue in the face and beyond
MARRIAGE IS A CONTRACT WITH THE STATE! PERIOD! CHURCHES, RELIGIONS OF EVERY STRIP AND ELVIS IMPERSONATORS IN VEGAS CAN PERFORM MARRIAGES IF THEY’RE DULY LICENSED BY THE STATE TO DO SO. PERIOD!
JoHo (bringing up the rear, due to Warner’s first here, first speechify rule) blathering at the JAGs.
Peterr @ 69 (oohh, I wanna be sophmoric but I’ll resist):
Thanks for that insight about American Catholics unwilling to go to bat against this fight.
Do you remember the ABC reality series that didn’t air, about a conservative neighborhood getting to decide which family got to move into the empty house? The punchline was that in the end, they chose the gay couple with young children, and one of the neighbors was so profoundly changed in outlook that he reconciled with the gay son he had thrown out years before.
Don’t remember seeing it on TV? That’s because Dobson got it dropped, because he threatened to withold support for Narnia. I think he recognized that this program may have had a huge impact on the discourse.
Much as I hate reality TV, and the premise of that show, I have to admit that it’s a fascinating coda. I think these stories will resonate with Americans, who fundamentally value fairness. But as Rayne @ 66 points out, it won’t happen without people taking a stand! (which is why the establishment Democrats’ willingness to throw gays under the bus bothers me)
“Wingnuttia has brought this issue to the fore as a base rallying tactic, and it has come back to bite them on the ass.”
this is the kind of irony that I love
OT– hojo says that the American people should be proud that we are righing our mistakes and the rest of the world should give us credit.
invokes the Declaration of Independence… radical Islamic terrorists… the UCMJ has too many rights.
OT.
Listening to WBZ last night. Note to readers-WBZ AM 1030 talk radio with Boston radio jocks. A few independants a few Dems and Republicans, but none of the baiting, yelling, and pandering to the lowest common denominator–a nice antidote to Hannity, Savage and Limp-baugh..WBZ can be heard in about 40 some states at night.
I don’t work for WBZ, just giving a nod to a decent station.
Anyhow, apparently, in overwhelmingly Democratic Massachusetts that has had GOP Governors for 15 years–the one big authority that was a patronage post for the GOP Governors was the Mass Turnpike Authority. The MTA was in charge of the ‘Big Dig’ that is now falling apart after 15 billion dollars worth of work from Bechtel.
So, in overwhelmingly Democratic Mass. the one big clusterfuck boondoggle that is now killing citizens was overseen by the GOP.
Big surprise heh.
-GSD
HoJo’s voice just drives me nuts… glad he’s done now
sorta OfT:
An article in today’s WaPo on a transgender scientist’s personal sense of how women are treated differently than men in his field. He’s “worn the shoes” (to use CHS’s term) of both men and women. There’s a lot of review of Summers et al, but I think the article’s worth your attention.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01883.html
OT, and really sorry for the blogwhore.
I have been waiting for another of peterr’s most excellent post’s as I wanted to point him to a very small blog that I stumbled upon. I like the attitude and comments of the author and thought a little encouragement would help ‘em’ feel like they are not posting to deafening silence.
http://notinmybible.blogspot.com/
I love the line attached to the epilogue of ‘Song of Bernadette’.
This goes to the heart of interpreting matters of morality, whether religious or secular (there really is no difference, secular morality is as faith based as traditional ‘religious’ morality, the only thing that differs are the articles of faith)
When you are talking about morality, people believe certain actions or lifestyles are morally acceptable or unacceptable. Those beliefs are often based on how that person chooses to live their life, beliefs which are articulated in hindsight.
No argument, or evidence are going to sway a person, towards or away from