
Some of us are watching the Senate Judiciary Committee Hamdan hearings this morning on C-Span3. Thus far, Administration witnesses have been testifying, and the Senators on the committee are now asking questions of them. (Specter has instituted an "early bird" rule, allowing those Senators who arrive early to ask questions first. Guess he got tired of some folks being tardy...I love that he's just announced it on air. hehehe)
Anyway, Prof had a great summary of the Specter questioning (of Bradbury from DoJ, as opposed to Dell'Orto from DoD):
Specter: Should statements obtained under torture (not his word) be automatically excluded during trials:Shorter Bradbury: (no)
Specter: What burden of proof should be used?
Bradbury: That’s a policy question, but not necessarily a “preponderance of evidence,” perhaps only “substantial evidence.”
TRANSLATION: A “substantial evidence” standard means “just a bit more than nothing.”
Sen. Jeff Sessions is whining his demogoguary out to the world now. Pardon me while I get myself another cup of coffee...(shorter Sessions: Terrorists...scary...run...run...screw the law, hang 'em high...save me, mommy.).
And now on to Dianne Feinstein...I'll update as I hear something worth transcribing. The peanut is home with me this morning, so I really appreciate everyone else taking notes in the comments on what is going on as well, so that we can all keep up with the hearing together.
Via Kyl's questions: Dell'Orto: Court-martial proceedings go well beyond what is required for our civil proceedings. "It would be ludicrous to apply those protestcions to these people who would get far less in terms of protections in their home countries."
(CHS: I just want to say if we are deciding what rights someone gets by comparing our system to others around the globe, we are in big trouble. This isn't "we're a lot better than a country that chops people's hands off for stealing." This is "are we living up to our own standards of justice and liberty.")
Now onto Sen. Kohl (D-WI). Kohl simply got the witnesses to say the Administraion really looks forward to working with Congress. (CHS: because they've done sucha fabu job of that for the last five years and all...*rolls eyes*)
Onto Hatch...Shorter Hatch: Wow, I sure think Addington and Yoo are fabu.
(As reader Dratty says:
Hatch is full of crap as is the DoD lawyer. There are procedures in BOTH CIVILIAN AND MILITARY TRIALS for the protection of classified information. As a matter of fact, in past civilian trials, certain lawyers were excluded because they couldn’t obtain clearances that allowed them to see classified information that would be used against their clients and those that did get clearances were duty-bound NOT to reveal it to their clients, if the clients were not cleared.To even suggest that any Art. 32 proceding that involved classifed information would result in that info being broadcast all over the world is just an out and out lie. there are protections in the UCMJ to address just that issue. (and I’m sorry I can’t give the cite right now.)
People who have not dealt with classified information might not know these provisions (the CIPA provisions and others) exist. Wanted to be sure that this wasn't lost in the comments.)
Feingold is now lambasting the Bush Administration for not listening to any dissent about their poor choices. The Administration witnesses are filibustering answers so that Feingold's time gets run out. Pathetic.
Shorter Cornyn: blah...blah...blah...Administration talking points...blah...blah...blah...
Shorter Biden: I talk a lot, but the Administration has royally screwed things up, and I'm peeved. As are Americans who care about the Constitution. Stop screwing up, and start listening to dissent or you are going to be sorry.
Shorter Huckleberry: What Biden said. Maybe you guys should actually read the UCMJ. I'm just sayin... (Oh, and I'm pretending like I didn't lie to the SCOTUS.)
Shorter Kennedy: You are making a mockery of the very values that we preach to the rest of the world regarding liberty and democracy and rule of law. Shame on you. And you debase the legacy that we leave to generations to come. (Kennedy's statement was great, and I hope to find a transcription of them -- will try to get something from his office...)
Sen. Durbin: Great job, from what I could hear from the depths of a Tinkerbell tent in our living room. (Yep, sometimes momma duties come first.) Same with Schumer, whose opening points were pointed and direct and quite clear in their statement that the President doesn't get to just make shit up by himself. (Would have been nice had Congress asserted this...oh, say, five years ago. But hey, better late than...erm...oh, forget it.)
Leahy's second round of questions was quite good as well -- pinning them down on specifics. For a man with a cold, Leahy is sharpening things down a bit.
Sen. Hatch thinks that the detainees at Gitmo are having a grand time. (as *ilson says, "they didn't waterboard Hatch while he was visiting? Quelle surprise!") Dianne Feinstein mutters "not quite true" to Hatch's glowing description of Gitmo. (CHS: Some days I wonder how the two political parties can ever get anything done when they can't even see the world or the facts for what they are...everything, EVERYTHING, is politics, and nothing is about actually doing the job. Pathetic.)
Schumer's second round concentrates on why the Administration didn't anticipate problems with their pushing the envelope. DoJ attorney still doesn't see what they did as pushing the legal envelope. (CHS: perhaps that is the problem, precedent means nothing except for that precedent that agrees with what they want to do...jeebus.)
Graham follows up with Geneva Convention rationale 101. And a dose of Huckleberry wisdom -- "we need to act in accordance with our values, sure, but we should also be able to short-cut our values if there is a practical need to do so." Aw, shucks.
Every time Hatch gets his butt in the power chair, he takes over the mike and decides to use it to promote his own agenda and that of Cheney and Addington. Tool.
Panel #2 is starting. Thus far, it seems like this will be the Administration supporters panel, including Ted Olson, former US Soliciter General in Bush's first term. They'll be doing opening statements shortly. Hatch is doing intros... (Okay, so I wrote this while they were showing Olson, but the panel turns out to be fairly balanced. And worth a watch.)
Hearing recessed until 2:15 pm ET.
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Hamdan and the Lamont/Lieberman race.
Important: Lamont’s team needs to make the public aware that Lieberman, who praised Hamdan during the debate with Lamont, rolled over and allowed the appointment of two supreme court justices, Roberts and Alito, who dissented on this opinion.
So far to me it seems like yet another Potemkin effort on the part of the admin. with Specter fully carrying Cheney’s water.
Disappointed, but not surprised.
Fitz!
KARMA !!!
Could one of you fast typists take over for Prof, please and thank you?
Christy I must say that your snarky repartee when summarizing legal mumbo jumbo is some of the funniest stuff I read on the internet hehe.
Thanks so much for the summaries…and the snark :)
Via Kyl’s questions: Dell’Orto: Court-martial proceedings go well beyond what is required for our civil proceedings. “It would be ludicrous to apply those protestcions to these people who would get far less in terms of protections in their home countries.”
(CHS: I just want to say if we are deciding what rights someone gets by comparing our system to others around the globe, we are in big trouble. This isn’t “we’re a lot better than a country that chops people’s hands off for stealing.” This is “are we living up to our own standards of justice and liberty.”)
Be copious as well as fast. I don’t get cspan3 and I’m on a dial-up connection so watching onlime is sorta out too.
its cool the DoD is now saying “we do Sec.3″ but what about the CIA? the law applies to them too but are they following it like the DoD now says they do? i suspect not…
Hot off the presses!
Tester bests Burns in latest Rasumussen Poll:
“Survey of 500 Likely Voters
July 6, 2006
Election 2006
Montana Senate
Jon Tester 50%
Conrad Burns 43%”
Yippee.
-GSD
PAYDIRT finally: the Dod says Congress should pass the Preznits procedures as they were
OK, one more live-blog, then off to coffee.
Principals are Daniel Dell’Orto, Principal Deputy General Counsel of the US Dept. of Defense, and Bradbury, Acting Deputy Attorney General of the US Dept. of Justice.
Questions are going back and forth in initial 5-minute segments, one R, one D, etc.
Sen. Herb Kohl (D-Wis.)
Bradbury: In light of the S Ct decision, the only way we can go forward with confidence is to have legislation; the Court did leave open the theoretical possibility that the Pres. might proceed on his own, but at this point he thinks we should get legislation with Congress.
(Comment: and then there will be that signing statement)
Kohl:
B: The Court carefully did not reach the constitutional issues. Just discussed UCMJ and Common Article 3.
Kohl: I disagree. The Court said that one option is that military commissions could be used that comply with UCMJ and Common Article 3.
Dell’Orto: The best would be for Congress to confirm what we are doing now with military commissions.
Bradbury: If the Pres. acts independently, the Court may disagree. So we think it’s better to have that dialogue with Congress. We think that Congress will agree that we should have the provisions that are currently in there.
(No direct quotes above)
Now off to Orrin Hatch, who says that Hamdan “troubles me greatly.”
onlime? One of these days I’ll learn to type.
Sorry I can’t do the steno. Going to help my sister with thyroid cancer tests and appointments in another city. Will take the laptop and check in w ye later.
Hatch concerned that classified information not get into the hands of the enemy.
They all got their Cheney issued talking points this morning.
Hoping for excellent news for your sister, egregious! Will be thinking about y’all today . . .
Kohl simply got the witnesses to say the Administraion really looks forward to working with Congress. (CHS: because they’ve done sucha fabu job of that for the last five years and all…*rolls eyes*)
Onto Hatch…
Christy
I left you a long Thank You at the b ottom of the last thread. What a great first post of the day!
didnt the English have the Star Chamber Procedures that maybe could be used for terrorists? Yoo could probably justify it …
The administration could always get their procedure blueprint from Kafka. . . oh wait, they already have.
From a non-legal mind: Bradbury & Orrin Hatch, what a bunch of tw*ts. Orrin Hatch: *finger pointed at cheek*.
No Miranda rights– thanks Orrin, et al.
Ooh, Bradbury: they’ll have to fight the terrorists on the battlefield but also in the courtroom.
Here comes Russ.
Russ is up
Go RUSS!!
Amen. They move on to Feingold
Hatch is full of crap as is the DoD lawyer. There are procedures in BOTH CIVILIAN AND MILITARY TRIALS for the protection of classified information. As a matter of fact, in past civilian trials, certain lawyers were excluded because they couldn’t obtain clearances that allowed them to see classified information that would be used against their clients and those that did get clearances were duty-bound NOT to reveal it to their clients, if the clients were not cleared.
To even suggest that any Art. 32 proceding that involved classifed information would result in that info being broadcast alll over the world is just an out and out lie. there are protections in the UCMJ to address just that issue. (and I’m sorry I can’t give the cite right now.)
Russ is on now on CSPAN 3.
Watch online by clicking this: http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs.....p;Code=CS3
give ‘em hell russ!
aah, finally a couple of words that I remember America stood for…
due process.
Feingold ties the thread of Hamdan to the NSA bs.
russ is citing justice kennedy…
court’s rejection of aumf argument - isn’t that relevant to nsa spying an fisa?
oohhhh…. russ reads glenn!!!!
Feingold making a speech — but I am willing to listen to his speeches any day.
He is the Frank Church of our day. The Wayne Morse of our day.
Feingold: (to authorize the current process) would be a great mistake. (We need to be true to our own American values)
The S Ct said the AUMF did not authorize the tribunals. Nothing in the legislative history.
Doesn’t this apply equally to NSA program?
Bradbury: I really don’t think so. The Court in Hamdi said that the AUMF does authorize detention. Of course, that involved another statute (the Non-Detention Act). The Court said in that case that the AUMF does provide authority to detain.
We have not argued that the AUMF altered or superseded FISA. FISA says that you don’t do …
Feingold: My time is up. One of your own lawyers said that the defense of NSA program after Hamdan is much more difficult.
B: I would refer to a letter we sent this week to Senator Schumer, where we laid out our views. Note to FDL pups: who has that?
russ:
arguments are astounding…
flies in the face of reality….
enormous impact on NSA/FISA
(paraphrasing… my typing isn’t fast enough)
Feingold: “the most extreme and tortured interpretation”
Russ is a great patroit.
Oh gack — Cornyn.
thanks prof!
HEARTY AMENS to 36 & 37.
I’m so tired of the pre 9.11 mindset. If we have a different mindset and change our values becuase of an attack, we surrender.
Cornyn- pre 9/11 mindset, oh yes, that’s important. Pre- 9/11 we had a democracy, but 9/11 changed all that. Now we have a shredder.
This “interpretation” and “current thinking” stuff from these blowhards makes me thoroughly ill. Russ is right– it is tortured and causing enormous damage to our country.
its funny watching Huckleberry Lindsey behind Cornyn … whatta smarmy weasel (no insult meant to weasels and ferrets!)
Summary of DOJ position: In Hamdi (not Hamdan) the S Ct said that AUMF did work for some purposes (detention), whereas in Hamdan it said it didn’t work for the procedures used for military commissions. DOJ’s view is that the justification for the NSA program is closer to that for detention than the argument that DOJ made (and lost) for military commissions.
I wish Huckleberry’s chair would tip over.
“To even suggest that any Art. 32 proceding that involved classifed information would result in that info being broadcast alll over the world is just an out and out lie. there are protections in the UCMJ to address just that issue. (and I’m sorry I can’t give the cite right now.)”
I think the best place to look is in the Hamdan decision itself. IIRC, the decision cited the relevant provisions. (I believe it was in Stevens’ opinion)
Huck must be nervous. Wonder why? there aren’t any witnesses who are going to point out his unethical behavior.
Maybe he needs a bathroom break.
Biden caught the train on time from Delaware to DC I guess …
Christy - your comment in the post about Kyl’s “why should we give these people more protections than they get in their own countries” reminds me of Barbara Bush’s “these people are underprivilieged, so this is really working out well for them” comments in the SuperDome after Katrina.
Real big of him - jerk.
spoon feed the pablum, cornyn.
biden up now; shield yer eyes!
Joe caught his train this am.
I think I am about to rock like Huckleberry because I am listening to Cornyn.
WaPo (Barbash) now ledes:
Detainees to Get Protections Under Geneva Conventions
any bets on how many minutes til a sports analogy from biden?
“Huck must be nervous. Wonder why? there aren’t any witnesses who are going to point out his unethical behavior.“
then WE are going to have to.
Christy Hardin Smith says:
July 11th, 2006 at 7:32 am
Via Kyl’s questions: Dell’Orto: Court-martial proceedings go well beyond what is required for our civil proceedings. “It would be ludicrous to apply those protestcions to these people who would get far less in terms of protections in their home countries.”
———————————————————-
No, it wouldn’t. If you didn’t want them to have “those protections”, then you shouldn’t have taken them into United States custody. You should have just tried them in their home countries.
biden quoting tom freidman
i can’t take it. too much….
Biden is right but he’s grandstanding it seems …
Biden: you need only talk to people in, in . . . (CT?). . . er Iraq.
Sorry will stop snarking.
And, as always, Biden asks NO questions, but speechifies….
biden making a good point.
we’re making more terrorists than we’re stopping.
i don’t know what planet we’re on here.
Great comments today. Lousy spelling though.
Is it me or does Biden seem more animated than usual?
:-)
this is the old biden i respected.
Yep.
Biden gets it, but the Cheney’s of the world don’t care. All they care about is their power and their wealth. Anything to build those is OK by them.
If you haven’t seen the KO clip with John Dean from last night, it’s a MUST. C&L has it, but I don’t know it is all there, it was a long segment. It’s also on the MSNBC Countdown page.
oh vomit, biden just said he loves the preznit.
Huck dudn’t wanna look backward … cuz sumpin’s gainin’ on ‘im.
biden on president bush:
he’s be so wrong on so many things so consistently…
we’ve got to get beyond “trust me” from the president….
god love him, butt his judgement has been terrible.
angie,
maybe W will give him a kiss in public too. Works for me.
i’ll second that, RevDeb.
…and John Dean is going to be on TDS tonight, too. Should be a hoot.
*ilson,
I don’t think that using the Star Chamber for a model is a good idea. It started out as a great tool for keeping the powerful honest. Then it perverted by Henry VIII into a political weapon, giving it its current evil connotations.
I wonder if Joe’s looking for a lip action with proclaimation of love for the president.
oh oh oh Huckleberry is talking about ‘legislative history’ and the Supreme Court? he’s going there?
RevDeb@64
Yeah. I’m going to try to buy the book today. It sounds tremendously scary, tho. It also sounds like the first time someone (other than us) is about to use the word ‘fascists’ to describe some of these guys.
“He’s been wrong so many times- God love him”
Interesting way of attacking Clusterfuck. Might work. The trouble with calling him evil is that most americans think he’s too stupid to be evil. Americans think that evil people have to be clever.
Yeah the Olbermann segment with John Dean was excellent yesterday. Let’s hope some of the Dems in those hearings saw it too.
ccmask @ 8:01 am
“Great comments today. Lousy spelling though.“
my 6th grade teacher told my mom that i was “not a natural speller”… and i’ve spent several decades proving my teacher right.
my typing is even worse.
my second was for your 64, RevDeb. Dean was incredibly powerful.
kennedy’s up
kennedy:
we should be thinking about how we want our soldiers to be treated.
Dems hope to nail the prez while not inflaming people in the states they need to carry to win back the senate (Montana, Missouri, Tennessee, Virginia, Arizona, etc.) Not an easy game to play.
kennedy invokes Alberto Mora.
It’s come down to ONE FUCKING PATRIOT in the US Senate. Russ. The only one who will fight for what’s right. I’m speechless.
God help us.
secretary england’s memo?
England wrote the DoD memo conceding that C.A.3 applies to all their detainees.
Played golf with a retired gooper doctor yesterday. He was an OB/GYN and now spends a couple of months a year helping out in Kenya.
Nice guy- good golfer- believes EVERY gooper talking point- EVERY one. Weird as hell- but we had a good discussion.
I am as confused as Kennedy. What about cruel and degrading does Bradbury not understand? Broad interpretation?
Time to aggravate your wing-nutty friends. Just forward this series of charts and graphs from the right-wing Heritage Foundation and watch the smoke come from their ears.
http://www.heritage.org/resear.....s_C/c1.cfm
-GSD
mora quote from kennedy:
reference from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01548.html
listening to Bradbury, I think the admin IS actually worried about war crimes…
selise,
I know exactly what you mean. I have to keep my Merriam-Webster dictionary open when I write posts. Plus, I had an OOPs with a table saw once and my right index finger is about a half inch shorter than it used to be. Makes reaching for the Y key a pain.
War Crimes Act. Cannot wait for it to be applied.
Bradbury’s calling Sec.3 interpretations as being ‘capacious’ is revealing. Sounds like waterboarding is being carried by Bradbury but he is worried others might not agree…
Hey Angie.
Also, check out Thinkprogress. It looks like Keith O must be really getting to FAUX SNOOZE. They have opened up an attack on him.
To quote a right winger, who said without realizing that Rush Limp-Baugh had lifted the thought and words from Gandhi: “As Rush said-if they attack we win!”
-GSD
I would love to have a similar hearing as today with the CIA … the DoD is trying to be clean but what about other US Govt entities?
oooh durbin is good….
gets bradbury to say that we don’t torture and we shouldn’t… then durbing nails him by then asking about rendition.
that was planned. well planned.
The hotter outer hinges of hell at Gitmo has Subway sandwiches and Chicken McNuggets?
I learn something new every day.
Hey, Urban Pirate.
haha… extra bad typing alert. durbing –> durbin
oohh
Specter has been called into the principle’s office.
believe me… gitmo IS the hotter hinges of hell, chicken mcnuggets or no…
Spector summoned to the WH - wonder what’s up with that… isn’t Bush out of town?
Rove’s gonna tell Arlen about ‘reality’…or something.
schumer up.
Urban Pirate,
Russ and also Byron Dorgan, on Cspan2, right now re: re-importation of prescription drugs. (And everything else he defends, including net neutrality.)
Specter going to get his dose of kool-aid.
Durbin was great. Feeling better.
AAAAARRRGGGHHHH - Hold that thought.
Fucking Schumer.
Who can get past that voice? Yikes, he must be great behind the scenes, cause he SUCKS in front of the camera.
Time for Specter’s regular bendover and paddle session in the Oval.
and he’s overdue for his monthly spine-ectomy.
Schumer speaking to the admin’s arrogance…
schumer:
we’re in a brave new world.
me:
where’s my soma?
errrgh! schumer speechifying…
are you undertaking a review of other policies dependant on the the understanding of aumf that has been been discredited by hamdan ruling.
come back to congress and you’ll probably get almost all of what you want.
Senator Spector, your waterboarding awaits you.
Mistress Condi will be the administrator of this weeks session.
-GSD
leahy up
schumer asks THE question.
NSA spying has been reapproved SINCE haman.
!!!
did i get that right?
f my typing.
haman –> hamdan
*lson - technically CIA is within DOD. That’s part of the problem with an military officer under chain of command status running DOD.
OfT: The Governator is “out of state” according to his office.
Yeah, if out of state = AT THE WHITE HOUSE!
Funny, and a little sad:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/.....e=politics
where did the president get the idea that hamdan affects the closing of gitmo? (leahy) where did he get such a cockamamie idea?
Mary, isn’t CIA under DCI (DeathSquads Negroponte) therefore NOT under DOD?
9/11 happened on this admin’s watch.
nail ‘em, Leahy!
The President’s always right…
I’m not watching, but DID they say that the NSA program has been reapproved after Hamdan?
If they don’t impeach Gonzales for that, they are a lawless mess.
leahy - why gitmo? why not hold the detainees closer to battlefield so witnesses are available?
Mary THEY ARE a lawless mess
leah, wrt bush’s statement on the court approved his decision to us gitmo:
did you give him such a cockamamie idea?
… there was shock from the witness.
In a perfect world, all news reporters would use the Christy commentator method. What fun that would be.
Wull, they ARE a lawless mess, Mary, so we don’t be looking for Abu G’s impeachment just yet.
leahy asking about rendition - witness not aware of that problem
Bradbury denies that we do rendition.
Mary at 8:36 am
I’m not watching, but DID they say that the NSA program has been reapproved after Hamdan?
i *think* that’s what i heard… if so, a VERY big deal.
i’m recording the hearing, will check later…
OT -
Floyd fans: Syd died.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBI.....index.html
NSA program reapproved after Hamdan by WHOM ?
Orrin wants to shut everybody up– hopes Shumer is the last questionator. Guess he did not heed Specter’s announcement that he did not want to cut this important hearing short.
I cannot verify that I heard that NSA had be reauth’ed after Hamdan– I think so.