
I don't know how to write about torture being committed by the US government. It's an incredibly difficult subject to dissect, in large part because it gets to the heart of why most liberal bloggers do what they do. I don't know many in the liberal blogosphere whose advertising revenues generated in the free market (as opposed to the wingnut welfare system) even pay for the maintenance of their sites, and those very few whose sites cover their costs could inarguably be making much more money doing something else. But there is something so deeply wrong and at such dissonance between the country we grew up to believe in and what this government is now engaged in that its unspoken presence informs every post, every word, even the decision to get up every morning and turn on the computer. To sit back and do nothing while this happens is unthinkable for anyone who genuinely believes in this country and the principles upon which it was founded.
And there is nothing that reveals the utter moral bankruptcy, the complete dehumanizing vacuousness of the right more than when it steps forward to defend torture and those who petulantly assert their right to engage in it as somehow "patriotic," and call for the elimination of all those who oppose it.
There certainly appears to be no limits on what Bush followers will endorse in the name of fighting The Enemies, domestic ones included, sometimes most prominently. And what is so significant about this is that the institutions which previously existed as a safeguard against arbitrary punishment and abuse of power -- things like due process guarantees, Congressional oversight, an adversarial media, whistleblowers -- have all been steadily eroded. The administration has seized the power to arrest people without charges, hold them in secret prisons, use torture to interrogate them, etc. That is all out in the open and prompts defenses of these practices from its followers. That makes the attempt to equate political opposition with criminality and even treason -- one of the most common tactics of the administration and its followers -- all the more dangerous.
I want to go back to the original Dana Priest articles just to remind everyone what we're talking about here. From the November 2, 2005 article entitled CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons:
The CIA and the White House, citing national security concerns and the value of the program, have dissuaded Congress from demanding that the agency answer questions in open testimony about the conditions under which captives are held. Virtually nothing is known about who is kept in the facilities, what interrogation methods are employed with them, or how decisions are made about whether they should be detained or for how long.
No congressional oversight allowed. We are supposed to trust the "boy king" to use the powers he seizes for himself appropriately and judiciously. Another one of those "trust me" moments.
Let's read a little further from the article:
"I remember asking: What are we going to do with these people?" said a senior CIA officer. "I kept saying, where's the help? We've got to bring in some help. We can't be jailers -- our job is to find Osama."
Then came grisly reports, in the winter of 2001, that prisoners kept by allied Afghan generals in cargo containers had died of asphyxiation. The CIA asked Congress for, and was quickly granted, tens of millions of dollars to establish a larger, long-term system in Afghanistan, parts of which would be used for CIA prisoners.
The largest CIA prison in Afghanistan was code-named the Salt Pit. It was also the CIA's substation and was first housed in an old brick factory outside Kabul. In November 2002, an inexperienced CIA case officer allegedly ordered guards to strip naked an uncooperative young detainee, chain him to the concrete floor and leave him there overnight without blankets. He froze to death, according to four U.S. government officials. The CIA officer has not been charged in the death.
The Salt Pit was protected by surveillance cameras and tough Afghan guards, but the road leading to it was not safe to travel and the jail was eventually moved inside Bagram Air Base. It has since been relocated off the base.
By mid-2002, the CIA had worked out secret black-site deals with two countries, including Thailand and one Eastern European nation, current and former officials said. An estimated $100 million was tucked inside the classified annex of the first supplemental Afghanistan appropriation.
Then the CIA captured its first big detainee, in March 28, 2002. Pakistani forces took Abu Zubaida, al Qaeda's operations chief, into custody and the CIA whisked him to the new black site in Thailand, which included underground interrogation cells, said several former and current intelligence officials. Six months later, Sept. 11 planner Ramzi Binalshibh was also captured in Pakistan and flown to Thailand.
But after published reports revealed the existence of the site in June 2003, Thai officials insisted the CIA shut it down, and the two terrorists were moved elsewhere, according to former government officials involved in the matter. Work between the two countries on counterterrorism has been lukewarm ever since.
In late 2002 or early 2003, the CIA brokered deals with other countries to establish black-site prisons. One of these sites -- which sources said they believed to be the CIA's biggest facility now -- became particularly important when the agency realized it would have a growing number of prisoners and a shrinking number of prisons.
Thailand was closed, and sometime in 2004 the CIA decided it had to give up its small site at Guantanamo Bay. The CIA had planned to convert that into a state-of-the-art facility, operated independently of the military. The CIA pulled out when U.S. courts began to exercise greater control over the military detainees, and agency officials feared judges would soon extend the same type of supervision over their detainees.
In hindsight, say some former and current intelligence officials, the CIA's problems were exacerbated by another decision made within the Counterterrorist Center at Langley.
The CIA program's original scope was to hide and interrogate the two dozen or so al Qaeda leaders believed to be directly responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks, or who posed an imminent threat, or had knowledge of the larger al Qaeda network. But as the volume of leads pouring into the CTC from abroad increased, and the capacity of its paramilitary group to seize suspects grew, the CIA began apprehending more people whose intelligence value and links to terrorism were less certain, according to four current and former officials.
The original standard for consigning suspects to the invisible universe was lowered or ignored, they said. "They've got many, many more who don't reach any threshold," one intelligence official said.
Several former and current intelligence officials, as well as several other U.S. government officials with knowledge of the program, express frustration that the White House and the leaders of the intelligence community have not made it a priority to decide whether the secret internment program should continue in its current form, or be replaced by some other approach.
Meanwhile, the debate over the wisdom of the program continues among CIA officers, some of whom also argue that the secrecy surrounding the program is not sustainable.
"It's just a horrible burden," said the intelligence official.
The same passage that makes us shudder with abhorrance will give shivers of delight to the eliminationists of the right. I have no idea the channels that Mary McCarthy went through (or didn't) as she tried to get her information out, or even which parts of the Priest series were sourced to her, but neither does anyone calling for her head.
But I do believe one thing: it was extremely important that the information in Dana Priest's articles enter the public discourse. And I would like to see a bit more acknowledment of that fact by the likes of Jane Harmon who likes to run just to the right of Atilla the Hun.
Said Harman :
"I don't know this woman, and I do not condone leaks of classified information," said Rep. Jane Harman (Calif.), ranking Democrat on the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, referring to the firing of Mary McCarthy.
How exactly were we supposed to find out? Was Harman planning on telling us?
As Digby says:
This is why the Democrats need to be very tough and make it clear that they are serious about holding this administration accountable for what they've done. If they are not out front, visibly willing to get these generals' and these whistleblowers' backs, they are sending a signal that these folks are on their own while the harpies are circling. Democrats need to step up here.
If the series in the American Prospect is credible (and I believe it is) the biggest challenge facing Democrats right now is that they are perceived as standing for nothing. If they are not willing to step into the breech and stand against torture until someone tells them it's polling well, it's a terrifyingly apt critique.
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Fitz
So sad…..so shameful.
Fitz.
EPU’D–SORRY FOR THE OT:
Just a friendly reminder to clear your schedule for Drinking Liberally, 7:30pm Wednesday, April 26th at New Word Brewery, 1313 E 8th Ave in Ybor City.
worst.president.ever
Great fucking post! This is why I come here.
“…it’s a terrifyingly apt critique”
Jane, it turns my stomach that Americans buy the official 9/11 story, which is what has led to this acceptance of torture.
When people talk about values, this is where we should take the debate. If the conservatives won’t stand up publicly against torture in any form whatsoever, and won’t stand up for a public investigation of torture and prosecution of those guilty INCLUDING those at the top, what kind of values do they really have?
A question to ask those who support the firing of the leaker, and condemn the leaks, is — Is there anything the U.S. government could do, which would compel you to support a CIA agent leaking to the press? If not secret prisons where torture happens, how about kidnapping, torture, and murder of American citizens?
The point is that everyone (except the real wingnuts) have a point at which they would support leaking to the press, so the public can know about and hold the government accountable for its actions. Once that’s established, we’re just arguing about whether in this case the leak was justified.
Secret prisons, torture, murder. I say yes, the leaks were not only justified, but it was the responsibility of anyone who knew this was going on to do something about it — and, by the way, to not quit the CIA (as some have suggested she should have done), but remain and watch for more reprehensible actions.
History will judge Mary McCarthy as a morally righteous patriot.
….biggest challenge facing Democrats right now is that they are perceived as standing for nothing. If they are not willing to step into the breech and stand against torture until someone tells them it’s polling well, it’s a terrifyingly apt critique…
Jane,you are so very right!!!!
Why do so few get it?
Sometimes I think my head is exploding.
EPU’d ; )
Cujo359,
“It’s too bad there’s no federal whistleblower law that can be applied everywhere, but right now I’d fear the result of this Congress drafting such a law.â€
I looked at this several months ago. It’s been tried and more than once but died in committee, IIRC.
Thank you, Jane, for calling attention to this hideous crime. Silly me - when I was growing up, I believed America fought torture and torturers. Now I know that Bush’s America kidnaps innocents and delivers them to be tortured.
The recent reports on Gitmo (over three hundred force-fed!) and some Abu Gharaib reports describe physician involvement in torture/”force-feeding” activities conducted by US military and CIA.
If Americans can’t be bothered to care about torture carried out in their names, perhaps they will be moved to care about having “Dr. Torture” for their very own doc once the MD is out of uniform.
Dave at 1:26, #8
Right fucking on.
tiz clear we are becummin the thang we hate when we used to be the hope of the worl. aint hardly nuthin saddern that. grate post, as always.
EPU’ed but applicable here
What was the legal authorization for renditions, torture, and underground prisons? The Administration’s argument has largely been that Article II gives the President the power to do these kinds of things. As many have noted such an argument is too strong. It would allow the President to do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted to. It would make the rest of our government and the concept of law itself superfluous. The President would just do what he did and that would be the end of it, no checks, no balances, just raw unfettered power. It is a measure of how ethically, morally, and intellectually bankrupt our nation’s leaders are that they would put forth such a rationale but there it is.
As for the rest, whether we look at this from the domestic Constitutional perspective, the military framework of the UCMJ, or our treaty obligations under the Geneva Conventions, some one of these or perhaps more than one of these must apply. Yet none of these sanction what George Bush has done.
In keeping with the perverse values of this Administration, when bad news comes out, Bush’s approach is not to adapt or admit blame. He shoots the messenger.
There is no statute of limitations wrt to the War Crimes Act– our law. We must, must, must hold those accountable for this torture and disgrace and if people like Harman are not gonna do it, then it is up to we, the people to get her and her ilk out and some accountability minded folks in. Check out Elizabeth Holtzman’s take:
>>>>
The key question is not whether detainees in Iraq were subjected to inhuman treatment in violation of the War Crimes Act, but how high up the responsibility goes for those abhorrent acts. Under well-established principles of international law, officials in the chain of command who order inhuman treatment or who, knowing about it, fail to stop it are responsible. The “chain of command” doctrine is undoubtedly applicable to War Crimes Act prosecutions. But even if it weren’t, higher-ups could be held responsible under the principles of conspiracy or aiding and abetting the crime under normal federal criminal law. This was surely the reason that Gonzales wanted to block future prosecutions of higher-ups by “prosecutors and independent counsels.”
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050718/holtzman
We do these things on foreign soil because our laws prohibit them. We do them in secret to avoid any backlash, foreign or domestic. We prosecute anybody who dares to shed light on it.
People who think torture is okay always begin with the assumption that we can trust our leaders. But when the administration is still repeating the demonstrably false claim that most of the inmates in Guantanamo were picked up on the battlefield, how can they be trusted?
Impeach the Decider. Let’s do it now while the Republicans control both houses. No, I don’t want a President Hastert. But impeachment now proves that this is about policy, not politics. Impeachment now will protect both the people and the presidency.
It seems to me that this whole topic of “abuse” is linked in a very profound way to corruption.
corruption = “a state of decay… putrid… rotten”
depravity = “moral corruption”
This whole topic is the visible manifestation of corruption, both legal and political. This is the visible manifestation of depravity.
Related
“Liar, Liar”
The worst of it is that the very people who appeal to Christian values as the basis for governing are the one who are the most supportive of torturing other human beings, all the more appropriate if they are of the Muslim faith. This is the crusades all over again. If Christ could see what has become of his teachings he would weep.
Wankers all. The Dems have no policy? Get real guys. You’re on MY side I think!?!?!? It’s pretty bad when the right wing noise machine starts affecting our side so much you start parroting their memes!!!
———————–
Despite implied-perceptions to the contrary, people actually do know what issues Democrats support: stem cell research, Medicare, stopping global warming, Social Security reform without privatization, universal health care, and not blindly “Staying the Course” in Iraq, for starters.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....19698.html
God grant us the grace to live long lives. Lives long enough to see those responsible in this administration tried and convicted for their war crimes.
Cozumel @ 1:29 pm (#10) - Perhaps it’s a blessing nothing further was done. This Congress has had a habit of passing legislation that’s worse than many of the state laws it supplants. I’d hate for this to become another one.
I was momentarily stunned into silence by the photograph. Now that the words are returning, I can say that my eyes are filled with tears and my heart is filled with shame that these things are being done in my name.
In WW II, Germans who knew they were about to be captured would try to surrender to American forces because they knew that, as prisoners of war,they would be treated well. When this assault on Iraq began, I naively assumed our troops had orders to treat prisoners similarly, according to the Geneva rules.
This administration is a criminal enterprise - truly, I am stifling an urge to go puke.
I do believe there is a double standard, and it was nice to see Harman and Kerry attack that point quickly for once.
Great question Dave! My threshhold is low: secretive shit, anything that looks unconstitutional. I don’t have any desire to live in a monarchy, so if “I’m in the know” the king-behavior would not be acceptable, if not by my superior, then by me, any means possible. We the public have a right to know, period.
With McCarthy I’m in a wait and see mode. If there are proper channels to go through in the CIA then those need to be followed (especially NOW!), get it on record that you talked to your superior. Then if you have to leak something as serious as this, you do it!
This is the sentence that got to me most, and I had just finished reading Greenwald’s post before finding this one:
The same passage that makes us shudder with abhorrance will give shivers of delight to the eliminationists of the right.
The very idea that others could read that Priest article with glee, cheering and relish staggers the mind, but this is what we face. We liberals are often loathe to look evil in the face, as our critics on the right often claim, but it is not eveil abroad we misunderestimate: it is the power of evil in the hearts of our neighbors we most overlook.
Now, I’m not enagaging in the language of “treason” and “enemies” that Glenn’s post so ably dissects in the linked blog entry. But nevertheless, the darkest parts of human nature are always with us - all of us - and in some times, places and societies, the conditions ripen for an overflowing of our inner malevolence.
Jane is absolutely right, as is Digby: as these people lose political credibility, they will become even less circumspect (if that were possible) and more extreme. They expected a permanent American reich. We can’t give it to them, and we can’t assume we’ve changed the tenor of the nation even with one or two successful election cycles.
This stuff can always arise again, and you can never drive a stake through its heart to kill it forever. But you can work to change our times in such a fundamental way that movements like the one in America that salivates over torture can be discredited and repudiated for a generation or two. That’s our job.
With a new report of a JAR of 32%, we may be seeing the angry Bubba effect kick in. There are some segments of the electorate that will never admit that they and Bush were wrong on any issue who will still abandon him because they hate the taint of a loser and because they can see the ship is going down. They may not like it but they like having their noses rubbed in his failures even less.
i’ve never had any doubts about the moral depravity of these motherfuckers. what truly astonished me was the eager and enthusiastic endorsement of torture by chris matthews and wolf blitzer et al. how these people could defend the use of torture based on their teevee viewing habits — the constant comparison to ‘24′ — is such a testament to the utter corruption and degradation of the corporate media in this country.
basic cable porn.
Here’s the story on the CNN poll- apparently it was NOT from Gallup.
WASHINGTON (CNN) — President Bush’s approval ratings have sunk to a personal low, with only a third of Americans saying they approve of the way he is handling his job, a national poll released Monday said.
In the telephone poll of 1,012 adult Americans carried out Friday through Sunday by Opinion Research Corporation for CNN, 32 percent of respondents said they approve of Bush’s performance, 60 percent said they disapprove and 8 percent said they do not know.
That’s a significant drop from the way Americans perceived the president a year ago. In a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll carried out April 29-May 1, 2005, Americans were split on their assessments of Bush’s performance, with 48 percent saying they approved and 49 percent saying they disapproved. (Read the complete results document — PDF)
CNN’s poll has a sampling error of plus-or-minus 3 percentage points for most questions.
It was one of four conducted within the past 10 days that have yielded similar results: a Pew Center poll carried out April 7-16 gave Bush a 35 percent approval rating; a Fox News/Opinion Dynamics poll carried out last Tuesday and Wednesday gave him a 33 percent approval rating; and an American Research Group poll carried out Tuesday through Friday gave him a 34 percent approval rating.
Asked whether the term “strong and decisive leader” describes Bush, 46 percent said yes, down from 62 percent who said they felt that way in a CNN/USA Today/Gallup survey carried out July 22-24, 2005.
Asked whether “honest and trustworthy” describes the president, 40 percent said yes, down from 56 percent in a survey carried out April 1-2 last year.
Americans were evenly split on whether Bush is “competent,” with 47 percent saying yes, 47 percent saying no and 6 percent expressing no opinion.
Dissatisfaction with their leader appears to parallel Americans’ unhappiness over gas prices. More than two-thirds of Americans (69 percent) said recent increases in the cost of gasoline have caused them hardship, with 28 percent saying they have not, and 1 percent saying they have no opinion.
Asked to rate the level of hardship, 23 percent described it as “severe,” and 46 percent described it as “moderate.”
That’s up from last April, when a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll found that 15 percent of respondents said the price of gasoline was causing them “severe hardship” and 43 percent said it was causing them “moderate” hardship.
Last week, a Lundberg Survey of gasoline prices found the average cost of a gallon of self-serve regular was $2.91. Last April, the average gallon cost $2.29.
Bush’s flagging popularity might produce dividends for the Democrats. Asked about the congressional elections slated for November, half of registered voters said they would vote for Democrats if the election were held now, 40 percent said they would vote for Republicans and 6 percent said they did not know.
This question has a margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points.
EPU’d - OT
GSD - You out did yourself with prime, grade A Snark in the comments section over at Think Progress. I hope I have your blessing to post it here because I think it is suitable for framing.
“Here let me fill you in on this guy. He’s a coward, a traitor, a Clintonista, a partisan Democrat, he gave money to Tom Daschle and Ted Kennedy and Joseph Stalin, he is gay, he’s a hack, he got his job by being a suck-up, he has a book for sale, he is out of touch, he is a thug, a goon, a thrid world dictator wannabe, he looks like Noriega, Pinochet, Khaddaffy, Idi Amin, he’s selling a new book, he hates America, he hates freedom, loves Al Qaeda, he is French, Muslim, queer, blah,blah,blah…..
I was just trying to save our resident trolls some typing.â€
-GSD
Comment by GSD — April 24, 2006 @ 3:21 pm
Great Stuff - (polite golf clap)
Jane - stunning post. Frankly, I think exposing these horrible deeds done in the name of our country is not a crime. I would hate to hear these people say some future day, “I was only following orders.” How many asked how could that go on with no one speaking out. In my mind she (Mary McCarthy)is a patriot and a hero.
One thing that gets ZERO coverage in the US is the ICC (International Criminal Court) and the fact that the US is refusing to support it. The quick description of the ICC is here.
The problem is that the US doesn’t like the idea of holding individuals accountable for war crimes, genocide, and the like, unless we get veto power over who is tried. Here is the US problem:
The US has been (and should be) out in front on issues like this. However, we aren’t the country we used to be. Even Clinton was worried about the issue, but Bush knows he is committing war crimes and so won’t support any accountability for his actions.
Everyone is still distracted with that “Bright Shiny Object” of Mary McCarthy leak and the Real Story of the secret prisons, torture and rendition.
Look behind the fool with the “Bright Shiny Object” ….. go ahead and look away… OH Sh*t someone has been doing @#$% in OUR NAME?
Question: How much as the level of violence and torture on TV, Video games & Movies changed the publics perception of the acceptability of that type of behavior? I am not blaming the entertainment industry in whole, just that this struck me really hard when I came back from living in Europe for three years. I was shocked how much of it is all around us. You have TV shows that make it look very acceptable, movies and Video Games that are designed around violence.
There have been books about the Militarization of our society, I see this with the TV shows of “The Unit”, “E-Ring” and even “NCIS”.
Here’s the story on the CNN poll- apparently it was NOT from Gallup.
rw — gallup cancelled its partnership with cnn cause of low ratings … lol.
“The news of the CNN/Gallup poll breakup became public today when an internal memo made its way on TVNewser.
According to the post, CEO Gallup Jim Clifton wrote to employees: “We have chosen not to renew our contract with CNN. We have had a great relationship with CNN, but it is not the right alignment for our future. …. CNN has far fewer viewers than it did in the past, and we feel that our brand was getting lost and diluted,” Clifton continued. “…We have only about 200,000 viewers during our CNN segments.”
Pachacutec #25,….
…We can’t give it to them, and we can’t assume we’ve changed the tenor of the nation even with one or two successful election cycles…..
Who was it that said the price of freedom is eternal vigilence ??
Gasoline Prices Drive George W. Bush’s Disapproval Ratings To Record Highs
George W. Bush’s disapproval ratings are at the highest level of his presidency as over eight out of ten Americans say higher gasoline prices are having a negative impact on the national economy and their personal financial situations according to the latest survey from the American Research Group.
Among all Americans, 34% approve of the way Bush is handling his job as president and 60% disapprove. When it comes to Bush’s handling of the economy, 31% approve and 64% disapprove. Among Americans registered to vote, 34% approve of the way Bush is handling his job as president and 60% disapprove. When it comes to the way Bush is handling the economy, 32% of registered voters approve of the way Bush is handling the economy and 63% disapprove.
American Research Group.
bkny,
Not only is torture morally reprehensible and illegal, it doesn’t work. So you have to wonder what were these guys thinking. We threw away our basic beliefs and values, made common cause with the worst scum on the planet, and can’t even argue expediency. What were they thinking?
too eloquent to let go without comment jane, I am brought to tears
will link as possible to this great peice
I’d like to personalize a bit of your opening paragraph:
“But there is something so deeply wrong and at such dissonance between what I we grew up to believe in and still believe in what this government is now engaged in.”
The behavior of this government is a personal affront to me, an attempt to crush everything being a human being is supposed to mean.
There are those who argue torture like ‘it’s nothing personal, just politics.’ Screw that. If I don’t take torture personally but keep it in the rhelm of the theoretical, this administration will have won and I (and you) will definately have lost.
With GW Clusterfuck at 32% approval- imagine what will happen if Rove gets indicted this week. Dum- de- dum- dum!
ratbastahd:
go over to taylor’s last post here and read #115. it spells out pretty clearly why mccarthy didn’t follow the chain of command with her expose’. the sum of it: she would’ve been co-opted, booted out anyway and ridiculed before anything substantitive became public.
“who petulantly assert their right” …. It’s interesting, I originally read this as “perpetually”….I don’t think there is much of a difference….
Jane,
I just want to say, great post. I can’t stay for the discussion though, it makes me too sad.
I want my country back. The one I grew up in. The one where we were the good guys, liberators.
To all the trolls on the last thread worried about Mary O. McCarthy “breaking the law”, everything the Nazis did was “legal” under the German law at the time.
What the Founding Fathers did, was a hanging offense.
I’m glad Mary O. decided she would rather “break the law” like the Founders, than “obey the law” like a freakin Nazi.
Dave @ #8
The only acceptable wingnut leak would involve a Democratic President and a blue dress. Or as WaPoo would say, “A Good Leak.”
From MyDD — Wall Street Bets On The Democrats
http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/4/24/15752/3080
Horrible and shameful. And hard as it is to look at pictures and read about this, we absolutely need to know what our country is doing in our name. This is what we learned about as children - when we learned about Nazis, about Stalin, about oppressive murderous regimes. We were always able to say “in America, it’s not like this”. No more.
Bush, Cheney, Rummy, anyone responsible for these atrocities should be tried for War Crimes at the Hague. And anyone who goes along, who does object, is also guilty.
This is filthy criminal behavior.
McCarthy denies leaking:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12...../newsweek/
This is getting strange….
Sorry, but that’s just not true. The ranking members of the appropriate committees are briefed. If you look at the quote it says “open testimony”.
If one wants to disseminate a secret, telling Congress is guaranteed to spread it far and wide. As Schumer put it….
As for torture, I’m pretty sure the administration is on record against it. But that requires that the left believe the administration so that won’t fly too far.
Perhaps we should change the policy regarding people that shoot at us, to rooms at the Plaza,
and giving up after asking “pretty please”.
Sad, and sobering. Jane, once again, you have succinctly stated the depths that this Administration has sunk to in “defending Freedom.” What those in favor of this odious policy refuse to see is that what we do to others will be visited upon our men and women in the military. When that happens, the Bush cheer leaders will again refuse to acknowledge our role.
Torture does not work. Never has, never will.
I want my country and it’s foundation in law back.
ITMFA!
kittenstomper-in-chief
Why exactly do we need secret torture prisons? We needn’t need them against Stalin or Hitler. Have we captured Magneto or Lex Luthor? If I recall, a regular ol’ prison was good enough for the likes of Eichmann and Goebbels. We didn’t need an Invisible Fortress of Solitude for the guy who PLANNeD THE LONDON BLITZ. Why do we need one for Kabul cab drivers and the like?
Thanks for this post, Jane. In some ways, the torture debate was set back by the McCain amendment since, after the negotiations, etc. the law was passed and then spurned by the president in his signing statement. At that point, it seemed like the senators felt like they had done all they could, and all the blood was on the president’s hands after that. The public generally went into a “see no evil” mode, basically hoping that the torture would stop, but feeling like there wasn’t anything they could do about it. It is true that there is not very much we can do about it, just as there is very little that we can actually do about the administration making plans to invade Iran, etc. However, posts like this one are helpful to keep the issue alive and to frame it in a meaningful way. Of course we all want to protect our country. The hypocrisy and moral bankruptcy of those who would tell us that protecting our country requires abandoning our most basic beliefs in the sanctity of human dignity must be exposed on a regular basis. The fact is that our government is engaging in torture in our names. Acquiesence is participation.
peace,
jim
Oh the depravity.
I’ve been an expat for 12 years now and I just don’t recognize my own country anymore. I am repulsed. Ashamed.
And people here (France) still have such a well of good feeling for the US, and rationalize it by saying, well, our country is in such a mess too.
But France is not in fundamental crisis, in danger of losing itself. The magnitude and the sheer amount of destruction is heart-rending, as from afar you see the entire fabric of America torn asunder, degraded by those who are supposed to protect and defend the country.
There is no excuse to support these criminals. The only heartening part of this moment is the reaction it has generated in people like the generals and Mary McCarthy, and even the CIA, who simply cannot continence the criminality any longer.
What does it say of us as a nation that the CIA has become a bulwark against our own government’s lawlessness?
No longer are we the shining city on the hill. This has stained us for many generations.
This regime and its attendants are:
Morally Bankrupt and Perverse
That is all.
shooter242 — enjoying the pretty pictures, are you?
OT — but when is Christy due back? I’d send her an email to tell her how much I’ve missed her posts, but you don’t have email links on the page or on the author line of your posts any more.
Shooter, shooter, shooter.
Explain to me in 50 words or less why the guy in the picture is worse than Herman Goering.
I think many refuse to accept what is really happening. They see the pictures and think: “Gee, that isn’t so bad. I’ve seen worse on 24.”
What they do not think about, or even want to think about, is what isn’t captured on film.
The TRUTH will set us free! Keep up the great work, Jane and Christy.
By way of Raw Story, this intriguing story about Mary McCarthy, who apparently denies being the source of the leak, as mentioned below:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12...../newsweek/
Secrets of the CIA
A former colleague says the fired Mary McCarthy ‘categorically denies’ being the source of the leak on agency renditions.
WEB EXCLUSIVE
By Mark Hosenball and Michael Isikoff
I really hate right-wingers and Bush, Gonzalez and Rumfeld, etc. for making Americans have to explain to other Americans why torture is murderous and criminal. I’m not even convinced that the majority of detainees are “guilty” of anything but being caught in the wrong place and the wrong time and can only be tenuously linked to Al Quaeda at best.
hugh#35:
during the initial period that american torture was debated, it was always debated by political operatives/hacks. there were never any representatives from human rights groups or the trauma specialists who work with torture victims to debate the newly adopted policy. the portrayal and advocacy of torture by these pigs was deliberately uninformed and calculated.
“ratbastahd:
go over to taylor’s last post here and read #115. it spells out pretty clearly why mccarthy didn’t follow the chain of command with her expose’. the sum of it: she would’ve been co-opted, booted out anyway and ridiculed before anything substantitive became public.”
Thanks farhender! #116 methinks. Anyways, yes, I agree with that. Just to be clear, I support McCarthy in leaking THE TRUTH. I can only imagine the atmosphere in the CIA these days, and if they are truly checking into party affiliation, straight to the press is how I would have acted as well. But I also imagine I would have asked for an official meeting with my superior, and expressed my concerns about the matter. Ya gotta figure they’ve seen the swiftboating methods of their opponents so eliminate as much smear potential as possible.
I am speaking out because of the civilians that we incinerated at Fallujah.
Prisoner abuse shows the callous disrespect this administration has for not just Moslems, but anyont brown who might not speak english.
A deeper problem, if that is imaginable, is emerging, and Karl Rove is without a doubt, pursuing a racebaiting agenda that extends to making the “illegals” Hispanics an object to focus fear and hate on, and give the immigrant issue priority so the soaring fuel prices and scandelous profiteering will escape media focus. Already, very virulent and troubling headline grabbing items are appearing in papers and on the internet..hispanics writing letters grounded in white supremacist thinking, violet video games telling the defender to blow away immigrants…something evil is being kindled by this Rove technique of raising hatefilled chimeras///remember the techniques for beating McCain in the south–he had a mixed color family…the swiftboaters…there has been no reversal of Rove…if anything he is making ever more broad appeals to the most repugnant and hatefilled elements of this country.
Here is an interesting detail on the McCarthy saga from the Isikoff piece:
At the same time, some former officials said, the use of polygraphs on officials inside the inspector general’s office is potentially controversial, given the fact that the inspector general is by statute supposed to be an independent officer. “This gives them [CIA management] entrée to the I,.G’s office which they’re not supposed to have,†said another former agency official. But a former CIA Inspector General, Frederick Hitz, said he was polygraphed by the FBI over the leak of a report the internal watchdog’s office produced on Soviet mole Aldrich Ames in the mid 1990s. Hitz says that security concerns would override concerns about the IG’s independence.
Agree with Dave #8:
>> “Is there anything the U.S. government could do, which would compel you to support a CIA agent leaking to the press? If not secret prisons where torture happens, how about kidnapping, torture, and murder of American citizens?”>>
Rendition, torture, causing people to be “disappeared” are things for which we have regularly criticized totalitarian regimes. IMO the American people need to know these things are been done in our name.
I find it particularly appalling that there is not more popular outcry about these horrors.
Ohdave #7–you’re right. We need to highlight the hypocrisy of the “selective values” of the “morally righteous”.
Really appreciated Mary and lhp’s postings about the legality of classifyng illegal activity. Thanks.
And just when you thought that things might get a bit better – with US forces raiding an Iraqi backed torture site last November and Chairmen of the JCS stating very uncategorically that US soldiers were required to intervene to stop abuse, even though it made Rumsfeld get that confused – “where’d I leave my keys†look, we find out that yes indeed, just like The Generals have mentioned, chain of command allows breaches of Military Code of Conduct as well as UCMJ all to accommodate Rumsfeld’s mumblings. *sigh*
http://tinyurl.com/j3e68
U.S. and Iraqi inspectors have discovered abuse of prisoners in detention centers run by
Iraq’s Interior Ministry that were visited as recently as February, the Washington Post reported on Monday. Citing U.S. and Iraqi sources involved with the inspections, the Post said U.S. troops did not respond by transferring all of the detainees to safety . . .
Leaving some of prisoners in centers where their abusive treatment was discovered has prompted inspectors to ask whether the military is following a pledge made by Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Peter Pace in November that U.S. troops would try to stop any inhumane treatment they saw, the Post said.
“They tell us, ‘If you leave us here, they will kill us,”‘ the Post quoted an anonymous Iraqi official as saying.
I don’t think the was any ‘debate’ about torture. Gonzales created a ‘legal’ document; others in DoD did the same. I should make sure I have them memmorized.
Names that will ‘live in infamy.’
Is there anyone here who speaks “shooter”?- I can’t understand a word it is saying.
shooter 242 #46
As for torture, I’m pretty sure the administration is on record against it. But that requires that the left believe the administration so that won’t fly too far.
I gave up believing this administration 47 lies ago. Everyone knows Cheney fought the McCain amendment tooth and nail. Bush’s signing statement said flat out he could do whatever he wanted, despite congress’ cute little laws.
Jane, great post. Glenn Greenwald always has astoundingly great stuff.
#41
Thats exactly the message we need the Democrats ( or someone) to get out for the 2006 midterms:: “This is NOT my America. I want my country back.”
This torture stuff came from the top down and we desparately need accountablity. They really want the press to back off on this one, and the rumblings about Dana Priest just make me think there is even more to find out. By the way, no one ever followed up on the student at John Hopkins question to Bush about how to hold private contracters in Iraq accoutable for their actions…He was going to check with Rumsfeld, remember????
Looking at U.S actions in this arena is like looking at a decaying, oozing, stinky, dead, awful thing. It is hard to bear, hard to think about, but we absolutely must.
Oh how we need a leader to step up with the message- we need our country back. What we have become is NOT my America.
I have a question which may have been asked many times before but here goes.
Is leaking classified information illegal if the information that is being leaked is illegal? Is illegal classifed information even allowed by our laws to be classified?
Nine million fdl visits.
Thank you Jane
I think lol
time for a walk in the rain
Thank you, Jane, for engaging this critical subject.
I’ve taken more than a passing interest in torture as a result of my involvement in human rights work in Central America and Southern Africa in the 80’s and 90’s. In El Salvador I heard first-hand accounts of beatings and capuchas (lime-dusted air-tight rubber hoods). In Namibia, SWAPO captives had bricks dropped on their bare feet, and were scalded with the exhaust pipes of APC’s.
Senator McCain experienced beatings and stress positions at the hands of the Vietnamese (who claimed that the Geneva Conventions didn’t apply to an undeclared war). Americans notoriously used ‘tiger cages’ and threw Viet Cong prisoners out of helicopters to encourage their comrades to talk. To my knowledge, the methods of Pinochet’s Chile were the most diabolical.
If we practice torture, we are consenting to the torture of our own soldiers. Our irregular forces and ‘security contractors’, such as those who were lynched in Fallujah, can claim no protection. They are simply ‘unlawful combatants’.
We must insist on Geneva standards for all prisoners. They are truly the least of our brethren.
I believe that torture inevitably accompanies conflict. To eliminate torture, we must minimize conflict. To minimize conflict, we must insist on social, economic and political equality. Everywhere.
Guess it’s time to start the contest. Name the date GW Clusterfuck gets his first JAR in the twenties. Better start it fast- the winning date may be tomorrow!
that is one fine slogan, I would fine tune it a bit;
this is not the not my America, this is not the country our founding fathers gave to us, I want my country back
I am a little more verbose then you, but man, your slogan is excelllant
the biggest challenge facing Democrats right now is that they are perceived as standing for nothing
Had Enough Yet?
Yes, I have.
Somebody needs to create a blog that shows only the pictures of the horrors that are being commited, the torn and shattered bodies of innocent men, women, and children. The only words allowed would be the date and location of where the picture was taken.
I would suggest calling it: America-The Christan Nation. The biggest supporters of such a “nation” are the largest defenders of these atrocities.
Let everyone see what we have created. The world is watching.
I thought that the decider attached a signing statement to the torture amendment saying that he could still torture if he wanted to.
“Wankers all. The Dems have no policy? Get real guys. You’re on MY side I think!?!?!? It’s pretty bad when the right wing noise machine starts affecting our side so much you start parroting their memes!!!”
I think the Democrats have plenty of policy on paper. What they clearly do not have is an ability to effectively communicate it, especially come election time.
Somebody above mentioned the fact that the Democrats never take a stand until somebody tells them that the notion of their doing so is polling well. This really cuts to the core of the problem. Realistically-speaking, a party only has as much policy as they can effectively communicate to the voters. If they can’t figure out how to package and sell their product, then it could be a friggin’ cancer cure and zip-zip apple-corer all rolled into one, and it’s just going to sit there piled up in a warehouse.
MFM-
We don’t want to start a website that gets all the neocons excited, do we?
Once we’ve cleared the WH and Legislature of the scoundrels who haven’t held feet to the fire over this issue (and God, so many others) I suggest we establish a civil equivalent of the Purple Heart to leaker such as Mary McCarthy. She’s been wounded on our behalf. Nothing less is criminal.
OOps. Anything less is criminal.
Anyone watching CNN? Would love to hear how Wolfie the courageous handled the 32% Clusterfuck poll.
Apart from the fact that this is wrong, it plays right straight into the hands of extremist, violent opponents.
And, BTW, within the last 3 weeks I’ve heard of two Marine officers who are leaving their careers in the US military. Neither will tell their families about what they’ve seen in Iraq. Whatever it was, it was so dreadful that they are walking away from careers.
Jane, thanks for another important post.
ck:A comment for you and some of the others is on the previous thread (#52)regarding last night’s swarming of conspiracy theories. It may have been side-lined during active discussion as it warranted ‘moderation’.
Hope you check it out and the links and that you will consider discussing it in detail some other time.
For now, I have to go…
~
ccow, you mean “watchdog”, or “sentinal of our constitution”, you don’t mean “leaker” (yes I knnow you were tongue in cheek}
If you haven’t already read it, James Yee’s For God and Country: Faith and Patriotism Under Fire is a breathtaking book. It will make you very angry, but it is a calm, measured narrative of a military chaplain trying to do the right thing. There’s a very good review of the book in the December 2005 New York Review of Books.
rwcole 77
Put me down for June 1.
Heartbreaking. Watch this.
No Bravery by James Blunt. Send it to everyone you know.
shooter says:
As for torture, I’m pretty sure the administration is on record against it. But that requires that the left believe the administration so that won’t fly too far.
Perhaps we should change the policy regarding people that shoot at us, to rooms at the Plaza,
and giving up after asking “pretty pleaseâ€.
>>>>
How about not invading and occupying a sovereign nation? How about not bombing people including those not shooting at us? just wtf do you believe in anyway? Funny, I think you may be one of those that believe in the contorted golden rule– “do unto others worse than they could dream of doing unto you.” Or maybe the preventive one– “do unto others before they do unto you” or just get revenge wherever the cameras aren’t under the guise of protecting the homeland. ugh.