
Anyone who follows the Plame matter closely is accustomed to picking up an article or tuning into a news story and watching them get details of the story just plain wrong. We do it too; it's a complicated story and it's hard to follow all the details. But as someone who's witnessed people getting really excited about rumors that never turn out to be true, I would like to take a moment to interject a bit of objectivity about the current expectations regarding Karl Rove floating around out there. Scandal fatigue can be exhausting.
David Shuster is a great example to use because he is a very, very good reporter and his stuff is top-notch; it only goes down from there (and it does in fact go way down). And Shuster may have many good sources who are telling him that Rove's indictment is imminent, but if he is basing this assumption on the reasons he lists, I'm not sure I draw the same conclusion.
Shuster from Hardball:
Now regarding Karl Rove, according to the latest documents, the first time Rove is now described as a subject in the overall case - a subject being a technical term meaning somebody is under investigation.
The "latest documents" Shuster is referring to (I believe) is the April 12 filing by Libby's lawyers. What it actually said was:
The defense is likely to call Mr. Rove to provide testimony regarding Mr. Libby's conversations with Mr. Rove concerning reporters' inquiries about Ms. Wilson, as expressly discussed in the indictment. (Indictment, Count One, at p 21). Documents from Mr. Rove's files about the subjects outlines in the indictment are discoverable pursuant to Rule 16 because without them the defense cannnot effectively prepare for Mr. Rove's examination. As discussed above, Rule 16 compels disclosure of such documents even if Mr. Rove remains a subject of a continuing grand jury investigation.
(emphasis mine, p. 18-19)
First of all, this came from Libby's lawyers not Fitzgerald. Team Libby has repeatedly used these filings to manipulate public opinion and distract from Libby's crimes, most recently when they tried to hand Richard Armitage out to dry (something Fitzgerald quickly shut down.) And the statement reads "even if Mr. Rove remains a subject of a continuing grand jury investigation." This is a specific reference. Team Libby's extremely broad request for discovery in this case has sought access to everything Fitzgerald has learned over the course of his investigation, and Fitzgerald has repeatedly claimed that if something is not relevant to the charges Libby faces he has no right to go on a fishing expedition. So the Libby lawyers are trying to anticipate what Fitzgerald's objections to this particular request might be, and if the hungry press goes chasing after somebody else as a result, so much the better.
That having been said, I have no doubt that Karl Rove is -- and has been -- a subject of Fitzgerald's investigation, and as Sidney Blumenthal explains, "subject" is a legal term:
In white-collar criminal investigations, individuals who fall under the gaze of a prosecutor fit into one of three categories: witness, subject or target. Rove's attorney has suggested that Rove is simply a witness. But that is untrue. He is a subject. A subject is someone the prosecutor believes may have committed a crime and is under investigation. If the prosecutor decides he has accumulated sufficient evidence to prove guilt, he will change the designation of that person from subject to target and then indict him or her.
Fitzgerald has never said Rove is a "subject." But the story has now taken on a life of its own. From the Chicago Tribune:
Libby faces charges of obstruction of justice in that investigation, while Chicago-based U.S. Atty. Patrick Fitzgerald has said Rove remains a subject of his ongoing inquiry in the case.
Again, you read something like that and your eyes roll -- it's just sloppy and it further muddies the waters.
Fitzgerald has gone to great lengths to limit the information Libby is allowed to see -- for obvious reasons. He's gone out of his way to say who he would not be calling, and put Libby in the position of having to call these witnesses himself. Rove is one of those people. When Team Libby then argued that they were entitled to anything Fitzgerald had about Rove, Fitzgerald countered by saying that they should not be allowed to fish through his files for information with which to impeach their own witness. It seemed to me at the time not so much an indication of Rove's status than a bit of a clever firewall; Fitzgerald still gets to cross-examine Rove but he doesn't have to show his hand before doing so. Could make for some interesting courtroom theatrics.
I did find this observation from Shuster interesting, however:
The reason prosecutors describe an official as an Official A is when there’s pejorative information about that person, and the person has not yet been indicted and had a chance to defend themselves. But we’ve looked at prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald’s record as far as designating people as Official A or Official B, and in every single case we have found, Keith, that prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald when he designates somebody as Official A in an indictment, that person eventually does get indicted themselves.
I would bet a whole lot of money that Fitzgerald will eventually indict Rove. But this may be a long game, one that plays out over years and that frustrates a lot of people who want justice NOW. Those frustrations are only exacerbated by people who try to feed public hunger for this case by printing dubiously sourced stories that consistently get the facts wrong. We don't leap every time someone yells "boo" about this story, nor should you.
Update: The Note reported today that the Grand Jury investigating the CIA leak case was scheduled to meet this morning at 9:30 am, although there is no indication that Fitzgerald was there (and Shuster indicated on Hardball that he had not been around the grand jury for quite some time). Shuster did, however, mention that defense attorneys say the grand jury has been active with regard to the investigation again, a good sign.
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Maybe Mr. Fitzgerald doesn’t want to waste his own time and is really planning to drag this out until just after George Bush leaves office. Why spend all this time to prosecute a guy like Rove when he could get pardoned in a minute?
Various people are picking up on an item in “the Note” that has the GJ scheduled to meet at 9:30 this am.
Think Progress
Atrios has it too. And yes, we don’t want to get too far ahead of Fitz. Last time he gave us a bit of notice so we could all sit down and pour our chilled bubbly while we watched him do his well choreographed dance. Got another bottle waiting, but not ready to chill it until there’s more reason. Don’t want to tempt the gods and goddesses of justice into turning their backs on us
Who knows if Fitzgerald will be indicting Rove, but there appears to be little question that Rove is a “subject of the investigation.” His own lawyer is quoted in this story admitting as much:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/042006Z.shtml
BTW, this post seems to have gotten out of order. Maybe because of the time of post on top. Jane may want to repost it ? ? ?
You’re right Jane, we don’t want to leap on this story. But we do want to tie it like a bell around Rove’s neck. He’s tainted goods, and should be treated as such.
It’s not just Shuster.
Jason Leopold’s been talking to Luskin and other folk involved with the TreasonGate matter. Rove’s going to get hit with MULTIPLE INDICTMENTS.
Good post, Jane. I admire your seemingly bottomless reservoir of energy, attention to detail, and continuing determination not to overreach.
Troll who also goes by the name “Kathy”
(IPs don’t lie)
I know, I know. A girl can dream, can’t she? LOL!!!!!!
Not to complain (well, alright, to complain a little) whatever happened to Christy? I read this blog most days several times a day. One day Christy was here and then she was gone with no explanation I ever saw. What gives?
John Edwards has started a letter writing campaign concerning the Fitz investigation. I don’t know how much good it will do but it sure would be fun to have tons of letters sent to Gonzales. LOL
Dear Friend,
Over the past few weeks, the investigation into the leak of CIA secrets on Iraq has produced disturbing new information. Court filings in the Scooter Libby case have connected both President Bush and Vice President Cheney with an effort to selectively disclose classified and highly flawed intelligence to the media in order to discredit people who were asking legitimate questions about the Iraq invasion. The White House even admitted that President Bush himself authorized the disclosure.
Now that he is firmly linked to this deepening scandal, it’s time for President Bush to level with the American people about his role in this egregious manipulation of sensitive intelligence. But you and I know he’s not going to do it. And we know that the Republican-controlled Congress will not hold him accountable either.
Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald may very well be the only person who can shed light on what really happened and ensure accountability. What he needs now is our support to expand the scope of his investigation to specifically include whether the President broke the law. Let’s put our online community to work and together demand that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales allow Mr. Fitzgerald to get to the bottom of this. No one should be above the law. It’s time we demand real accountability. Please sign the letter now.
http://oneamericacommittee.com.....ility_act/
Clearly, there is precedent for a special prosecutor’s mandate to be expanded when he comes across further wrongdoing in the course of an investigation. I can think of no better time for doing this than right now. This case has all the elements of becoming one of the most serious breaches of the public trust in our nation’s history - with consequences that we are all too familiar with.
The facts of President Bush’s involvement, and the extent to which he manipulated intelligence to justify the invasion of Iraq, are not going to come out unless his actions are subject to an independent investigation. Remember, this is a President who at first said that he didn’t know of anyone in his Administration who had leaked anything. Then he had his spokesman say that anyone found to have leaked classified information would be fired. Now it turns out it was President Bush himself who authorized the leaks.
But it is clear this Administration will go to any length to prevent the facts from being known. We can’t let them get away with it. And they won’t if we speak up and make the Attorney General understand that the American people will accept nothing less than the truth. Please sign the letter and tell Attorney General Gonzales that we want no stone left unturned in this important investigation.
http://oneamericacommittee.com.....ility_act/
Thank you for taking action and for all that you do.
Actually, Shuster has gotten it wrong on the details of Plame before. His mis-reporting on a Fitzgerald filing elicited the Jeffress/Comstock denial that shortly preceded Dick shooting an old man in the face (I thought the entire incident was funny as hell, but still, it was technically incorrect).
Shuster also had to backtrack on his reporting that Bolton had testified (or been questioned) in the case. Now, in this case, I suspect Shuster had it right and State just forced Shuster’s source to retract, but still.
kalidescope, word is Christy is on vacation in Disneyworld? with the family?
I would second Kyle’s observation.
This Leopold article (fwiw, usual caveats apply), but more importantly the NY Sun article on Monday with the INR memo, feature quotes from Luskin CONFIRMING that Rove is a subject of the investigation.
This is significant to me for 3 reasons:
1)AFAIK, these are the first instances that Luskin has *publically* admitted that Rove is a _subject_ of the investigation. Usually, he’s danced around the issue, if forced to go on record, he claims he’s a person of interest, and hinted that he might just have been a witness.
2)Luskin states flat out in the Leopold article that he has no idea of what will befall poor Karl. Before, he seemed to be pretty confident that Rove would not be indicted.
And, finally, most importantly, 3) Luskin has emerged from a self-imposed “cone of silence” these past several months (at least since January when the Vivnovak story went over at the Special Counsel’s office like a lead balloon).
Why is Luskin all of the suddent talking now? My guess it’s either a)because he’s been cooperating with Fitz (since he might have been in trouble with obstruction charges over the Vivnovak saga), and Fitz has now assured him he’s not in any legal hot water and/or b)Rove knows he’s about to get indicted, and is having his mouthpiece (Luskin) do spin control to try and precondition the public into thinking his indictment is no big deal. The lame attempt to claim that the INR memo somehow suggests that Plame’s covert identity wasn’t anything special speaks to this sort of PR shenanigans. Should Rove be indicted, look for him to pull out the INR memo again.
FWIW, my prediction is that Fitz meets with the GJ on Wed. April 26th to wrap up his case. He will give them opportunity to ask any questions they want answers to, allow a few days for the FBI to follow-up on these questions, and present indictments to be handed up by the GJ in the first week of May, either May 3 or 5.
If justice isn’t swift, it isn’t justice.
A “long game” does not benefit the country. It only benefits the Republicans. Why write about something with no end in sight. If there is an end, write then.
This proves nothing, but it does cast Rove “stepping down” as WH policy advisor in a different light - just a coincidence? I recall hearing during the Libby indictment that prosecutors send out warning letters to their targets on the eave of indictments.
Bonnie: It takes a LOT more work and evidence to show that a person is lying than it does to show that a person is wrong. That’s why the Sergeant Schultz defense is so popular: Brilliant guys suddenly pretending they “know nothinkg! Nothignk!”, knowing full well that the prosecutor’s going to have a devil of a time proving otherwise.
But Patrick Fitzgerald is nothing if not industrious. If anyone can establish “pattern and practice” in a suspect, it’s him.
I’m with Jane on this. I think Rove is probably a subject, but the reporting has been sloppy sloppy sloppy. The “truthout” article does have Luskin admitting that status, but almost everything references the Blumenthal and Team Libby filing.
After Libbyrtarians asked for all the info the Prosecutor (or all the “aligned” entities - although now they have scaled bac) had on Rove and others, one of the several responses from the Spec Pros was that Gov should not be required to turn over things like secret G.J. testimony (some of which the Libbyrtarians ARE entitled to) that relates to others.
So Libby’s crew, in response, specified person by person a few examples of who they might want stuff on and why. Gov had made its objection broad and generic and had not specified which arguments matched up specifically with which people. So Libby’s crew said - “even if” your argument on Rove’s GJ tesitmony is based upon him being a subject — here is why we think our needs for the materials trump the GJ secrecy.
IOW, they said - taking the Gov’s strongest argument, here’s how we would respond. That is not the same as saying Rove is a subject and reporters should be more careful. OTOH, here’s hoping that we may move swiftly from speculation about “subject” directly to discussion of “indicted” skipping right over “target.”
But it does make you wonder about some of the reporting. I also followed links back (to ThinkP, to Left Coster, to NOte, etc. and I never saw the “meeting at 9:30″ stuff, but the Note was long and I skimmed, so I may have missed it.
I’m still wondering how he managed to meet on Weds with no major network seeming to note or report it?
BTW - this thread shows up for me below the Harry Reid thread, instead of at the top of the page??????????????
Here’s a song about the Karl situation. Nice pic too.
Remembering the false confirmation code in ‘ All the president’s men?’ Jane?
I wouldn’t worry to much about us because if one of us stuff’s up we have our network here to fact check our ass. I think it’s good some hares are now running from some conservatives like the Chicago papers and Arlen Specter. Cracks in the dike?
Let’s face it - Fitz is not Zeuss on the throne and he needs a political trade wind behind him and a groundswell of public opinion. He’s hurled down a lighting bolt with the suggestion of a conspiracy and Novacula has confirmed in a back handed way that ‘ It’s not a crime if the president screws the pooch’.
So whats not to like?
Even Rush is running scared.
Like Adlai Stevenson we could stop telling the truth about them but would they ever stop lying and show any remorse?
The facts in this case are damming and now point to espionage with an overlap with the Franklin spy case. A classic case of the Big Lie technique used to start an aggresive illegal war and the criminal conspiracy to cover up that ‘ Supreme crime’.
The public want answer’s, some Republicans want answer’s and the old grey lady want’s answer’s.
Bush can release his copy of the transcripts of his Q and A with Fitzgerald. He must do so now if he is to have any shred of a ‘ good faith’ defence. Also he can request the expedition of the Phase 2 hearings and report. That would be a healthy sign…for him.
This is a bare minimum of what he must do if he is to remain King in Karlmandu.
RELEASE THE TRANSCRIPTS CHIMPY - THIS TEXAS HOLD-EM THANG IS GETTIN’ OLD AMIGO.RELEASE THE TRANSCRIPTS AND BRACE, BRACE, BRACE!
It ain’t Rocket Science - I will bring Karl to his knees next week.
I forgot to have pardon’s ruled out early. That is also a sign of remorse and good faith.
Do it Chimpster - your the deciderer remember?
I think Jane’s right about not letting ourselves be manipulated in a knee jerk sort of way by sloppy or devious reporting. Gotta beware of the manipulations coming from the WH and their network.
We already have a lot of examples of placed leaks, tip offs, distortions and lies to learn from.
Those cynical bastards are going to dribble and drop nuggets of “information and spin” to see who passes it on, who scrambles for it and its effect. We got to stay ahead of their game. This blog sure helps do just that.
ps. I hear Bush is playing golf in St. Helena, California tomorrow. For you folks out that way, feel free to make a showing, you won’t be alone.
l says:
Jane stop trying to discredit reporters. its you that’s wrong on this one.
It’s okay, Leopold, you can use your real name here. We’re all friends.
Thanks for providing a voice of reason.
I gotta chime in with prof Rat at 18.
Fitz does need the breeze of public opinion to fill his sails. That’s what protects him from the constantly present threat of Saturday Night massacre and what helps to convince scared witnesses to give it up.
That’s part of why the work all of you do here at the Lake is so very important. You are making sure this story is correctly framed and countering the disinformation campaign.
DOJ guidleines and the US Attorney’s Manual prohibit him from sticking up for himself when they spin, smear, lie, fold, spindle and mutilate. It’s all you. That’s what keeping this story honest (well to the limited extent is is being kept honest). Y’all are doing an amazing job.
Well said, Jane. Although Rove’s hastily (and weirdly) orchestrated demotion ceremony made me suspicious — and the tradition of indicting “Official A” is heartwarming — I agree that too much is being read into that “even if Rove is a subject” phrase.
O/T: For the last few weeks, the immigration issue was the rage. Now it doesn’t rate even a mention (not that I can find.)
Today’s front page story in the Los Angeles Times reports on 1,186 illegal immigrants from 26 states were arrested on Thursday for allegedly violating US immigration laws. All of the immigrants worked at wood product plants and were employed by 7 different companies, who’s managers face charges that may result in long prison terms. The raids set a record for workplace enforcement arrests in a single day.
Senator Reid called it called it “a photo-op crackdown…for political points.
Wasn’t there supposed to be a filing from both parties by today on why the judge shouldn’t impose a gag rule?
LOL, jr.
Question:
If President Bush signed Executive Order in March 2003 giving the Vice President authority to declassify information then…
Why didn’t Vice President Cheney show the Executive Order to Libby in July 2003 instead of “assuring” him the President authorized the declassification of the NIE?
It seems to me the EO is a backdated document, not uncommon in government, but still potentially illegal and most certainly unethical.
EarthEPU to FDL - Forgive me for this (or don’t), but this is where the parsing of all things Fitz gets to me and causes tears in my spacetime continuum.Rover has been a subject of the investigation from the beginning. There can be no question of that. You don’t need Fitz stating that in a press conference or a filing to know it, and you certainly don’t need Luskin’s confirmation or denial to know it.
Why would anyone believe anything Luskin or his shills said or wrote about Rover in the past (or present for that matter) anyway about his “status”?
Seriously, federal criminal investigations are not that complicated, who you think they are targetting is who they are targetting - it really is that obvious. Personally, I would bet that Rover is really a subject, since they really are synonomous (its a timing issue/thing), but thats me.
That could have been a screed, although it was meant more as a rant.
I don’t understand why the media has so much trouble following this story. Some intern’s sole job should be to follow Pat Fitzgerald around. Is he in Illinois, getting a guilty-on-all-counts verdict on the former governor? Or is he taking down child pornographers? Or is he presenting evidence to the Grand Jury about Karl Rove? In terms of hard news stories, you could do pretty well for yourself if just knew where the man was on a daily basis.
Another intern needs to be posted in a lawn chair outside the courthouse so that we at least know who’s coming and going to the grand jury.
Jane, you’re right to say we need to be patient — this entire matter depends on the economy, which is headed into the tank even though news headlines would have us think it’s all peaches & cream — as folks come to realize they’re not doing so well, you’ll see bush wishing his poll score was still as high as 33% — indictments will come fast & furious but bush will outflank fitzgerald by attacking iran just when he’s on the ropes & by saying jesus told him to do it — as usual, americans will buy it & the republicans will add to their majority in congress because leading democrats will applaud bush’s militarism
Jane,
I agree with you that after the ridiculous inflation of expectations last October before the press conference–remember Fitzmas Bingo?–talk of over 20 indictments?–you are vary wise to exert caution whenever things seem to be getting feverish among the plamaholics.
I gotta tell you though, my very first reaction when I heard about the Rove reshuffle was, wow he’s about to get indicted. Within a half hour I was second guessing myself and now have 3 1/2 working theories about why Rove had his portfolio changed.
Question: something had to get all this tremor going though. The info in the Libby papers wasn’t new. Luskin suddenly just “confirming” that Rove is a target instead of his usual double speak. A lot of little things. Fitz finally having some time free up now that the Ryan conviction has come in. It just feels like SOMETHING is going on. There is a little current of electricity that wasn’t there last week. Jane, if you don’t think it’s Fitzeaster, what do you think it is?
I can’t explain it, and I can’t put my finger on it.
I
Swopa — yeah it’s all a bit timely, but I figure that with Rove’s rats’ instincts (as you so aptly put it) he’d pro-actively put himself in a position he could still hold even if he lost his security clearance. One of those “just in case” things.
Rove may not know a whole lot more than anyone else (outside of Fitzgerald). I got the feeling that prior to Libby’s indictment he didn’t know very much, either.
Question: something had to get all this tremor going though.
Maybe what happened is that Rover went from subject to target? The difference between the two being, if I have to come up with one:
Subject - Gov’t “knows” you did something wrong (and the government really only “thinks you did something wrong” if they “know” you did something wrong) but hasn’t reviewed all the evidence in its posession yet, may need some more, needs to present to the grand jury, blah, blah, blah; and,
Target - The gov’t “knows” you did something wrong and has actually gone through all the evidence, etc., doted the i’s crossed the t’s, and is now ready to present to a grand jury and indict.
So the Target appelation would present new problems for Chimpco having Rover around.
It is suspicious that Luskin is talking again after having his wrist slapped earlier. I have to think it is planned for a reason.
1. Even the reporting on The Note is wrong. The Note says that the grand jury was scheduled to meet this morning, just like they’ve been saying for virtually every Wednesday and Friday for like the last ten weeks. The point is they were on the schedule, not that they necessarily met. We just don’t know.
2. That Blumenthal article was ignorant and foolish. He appears not to know the difference between “even if” and “even though”.
3. Shuster has not done very good reporting on the case. Tell me one piece of original news he has reported. He mostly just retails the most maximal guesses about what’s going on.
4. Along those lines, expectations should be kept low. Who could imagine that two of the most powerful Bush administration officials could be indicted? That would be a more severe indictment of the Bush administration than even the most severe critic could have imagined. Like Tom Maguire on the right, i think the investigation is, for all intents and purposes, over. Given that what we think and expect has absolutely no impact on what Fitzgerald does, there is no advantage whatsoever in having maximalist expectations, which can only be disappointed, and every advantage in having minimalist expectations, which are much more likely to be exceeded.
OT, but I just have to say that today’s Katherine Harris story makes me wince in mortification.
looseheadprop — I was one of the people inflating those expectations, hence I’m not anxious to repeat the same mistake.
And yes I do think something is up, and I think the most reliable indicator is Shuster’s reporting on defense attorneys who say the grand jury is active on this front again. It might mean something is coming down or it might not — remember the grand jury met for two years before Libby was indicted.
I may yet be proven wrong but I’m sticking with my guess that Fitz wants the tricky matter of Libby’s discovery under his belt before he complicates his life with anything else.
Jeff - Since I can imagine it, I will keep my expectations high. Of course I could be wrong, but I have been bullish all along, and there is nothing that has come up since Scooter’s indictment to change that.
Very interesting post Jane. I personally have no idea how to parse some of these reports, so I feel well advised to just sit back and wait and see for a bit.
OT but Murtha doesn’t seem to be letting the 6 Generals dangle. IMO this is bankable:
Another p.s. re: the Shrub–he’ll be pretending to be a friend of alternative fuel sources in the Sacramento area tomorrow. If any northern Cali FDLers who aren’t already in the loop would like more info, let me know; we’ll be doing our best to make him feel oh so welcome.
EPU - just so we understand:
Are you crying into the space time continuum, or just shredding it as usual.
Jane - I don’t think you inflated expectations, I think your timing was off. As much as you or anyone else who has not participated in a federal criminal investigation (from any angle) might learn about the process, until you experience it really is hard to believe that they take such a long time, move so slowly, particularly after the gov’t seemingly has collected all its evidence. But it does usually take years - at least the “bigger” prosecutions iike this (and even more so when obstruction is an issue).
So you were hoping for Rover’s indictment before Christmas. Wishful, perhaps. But it doesn’t mean that you are overly wishful as to the ultimate denouement of the outing of Plame - that Rover (and others perhaps) will be indicted. You’re not.
There’s always plenty of work for prosecutors, they don’t waste their time if they don’t think they are going to get something out of it.
It really isn’t that hard to figure out - stick with your gut instincts, just hedge on the timing.
said Mary, BTW - this thread shows up for me below the Harry Reid thread, instead of at the top of the page??????????????
Posts have actually moved around on me, too! Also, I’ve had a heckuva time getting posts in of late, using various browsers, although I did hear back once from what sounded like an automated queue manager.
Tortoise - Neither, tearing as in ripping.
Now I get the shredding; so yeah, that one.
tortoise #46
Maybe he is expanding and bending it.
[sorry … couldn’t resist!]
Update: The Note reported today that the Grand Jury investigating the CIA leak case met this morning at 9:30 am, although there is no indication that Fitzgerald was there (and Shuster indicated on Hardball that he had not been around the grand jury for quite some time). Shuster did, however, mention that defense attorneys say the grand jury has been active with regard to the investigation again, a good sign.
Jane or anybody else: Would Fitz necessarily be the guy to get the indictments from the GJ? Or is it at all likely that he would send in one of his top assistants to secure indictments? Or how likely is it that he would send one of his top assistants into the GJ to prep them for Fitz coming in, say next week, and asking for indictments? What’s the nitty-gritty details of how indictments are actually requested and obtained?
EPU 33
Yep. That was a rant. The true artist matches message and medium for maximum result. You succeeded.
Just a little quibble (not with Jane’s post).
Shuster says “Every case we’ve looked at, when Fitz names Official A, said official then gets indicted.”
Fair enough. But how many cases is that? The whole mess in Ill. could have named 25 ‘Official A’; but it just going one step of the chain at at time. But all those cases were ‘deeply intertwingled’.
In short, just because all previous A’s have gone to be indicted really has little meaning on face. Unless the sample is widely diverse.
IJSn’ (I’m Just Sayin’)
Appropriate cautions Jane- I still think Ol Smelly Karl will be indicted within the next 30 days.
Why?
1) Fitz clearly CAN indict him- we know enough about what Rover did to see that an indictment is in order.
2) Fitz continues to work on the case- and not just for his health.
3) It’s been a LONG fuckin time since Fitz got most of the info he needs.
4) Rover just got demoted-which sounds like a precursor to indictment. It would be easy to move him over to the RNC prior to the indictment and save Clusterfuck the embarassment of canning his sorry ass.
5) The Tom Toms are sending a clear and consistent message on the subject..
If I’m wrong- well I’m just wrong- but Karl’s toast within 30 days.
Timewarp - Presently I’m in a steady state of expansion, which is good, because during my inflationary phase my ego got really big, now it is controlable. And the EPU has not gone on a bender in a while, though if, by some incredibly odd twist of fate Rover is not indicted, I might.
For those not sitting down already, please do so…
…Nice post Jane.
Tortoise (46)
Space time continuum is so ‘last year’…
Quantum physics rule! (ask any Black Hole)
~
Oh come on, now! As I have been trying to say:
I have seen the yellow hoodie and the UN flag! Thanks and congratulations, *ilson. Though your and friends’ demonstration may have been small, it has the feel of a turning tide.
More evidence of changing times: BooMan reports that the Illinois State Legislature has begun considering an impeachment resolution to send to Congress.
BooMan also links to a Greg Mitchell article that points out the obvious pitfall of the strategy of waiting out the electoral cycle while Bootsy implodes.
Jeff @ 2:04
Oh, but it had such a good depiction of Scott McClellan.
EPU - one word of advice. Consider Gravity.
EPU-
You’re like Spongebob, his head gets bigger as his ego does and then he can’t wear his crash helmet.
1 Big Time Patriot says:
April 21st, 2006 at 10:51 am
Maybe Mr. Fitzgerald doesn’t want to waste his own time and is really planning to drag this out until just after George Bush leaves office. Why spend all this time to prosecute a guy like Rove when he could get pardoned in a minute?
Actually I have read that this, indeed, could be Fitz’s strategy. And not only with Rove, but also with Bush and Cheney - who could be indicted after they leave the White House but not before (at least Bush couldn’t be indicted before). The writer that I read sourced his info to people very close to this investigation.
I am certain my ticker cannot take another 3 years of this bullshit. And Fitz may be the only one who can stop a nuclear war with Iran. Not that I’m putting any pressure on Fitz!
OT - I posted this in the “invitation” thread last night, then had to go to bed. Checked back this morning, and hadn’t gotten a response. Can a tech-savvy person please help? The problem is only on that thread, and only on my other computer.
Thanks in advance!
comment #444
“Help!
I’d been reading and posting in this thread from the start, when suddenly the page went blank. The main fdl page is there, as well as the other fdl comments pages. So, I can see this topic on the main page, but when I click on the comments for this page, I just get a blank page.
I use firefox. I rebooted the computer. I uninstalled and reinstalled firefox, and it didn’t help. I can see everything else on the web except this particular page. I installed a java update. Still can’t see this page.
I had just finished typing a post when it happened.
I am currently on a different computer. So, it’s a problem on a particular machine.
Anybody have any ideas?”
Clueless - It is very possible that assistants are presenting to the GJ, and they could certainly present the charges to the GJ and wait around while they deliberate. I would think though, given the import of the situation, that Fitz would around for the presenting of charges and the deliberations.
#41
chisholm says:
April 21st, 2006 at 2:05 pm
OT, but I just have to say that today’s Katherine Harris story makes me wince in mortification.
any linkage . . .
It’s really unsporting of you, Jane, not to post breathless “BREAKING!!!” Plamegate stories.
OS…
I was finding comments on a previous thread here at FDL that were attributed to me by the comment software but that I did not make??
Anyone help me here with answer as to how or why?
Thanks
I think if Katherine Harris wants to win, she needs some of Condi’s perfume.
Me, I like the idea of the long, unending war in which the rats are picked off one by one for all kinds of reasons, including it will delay the next neandercon ressurection and it strings out the pardons.
Regardless, I’m with Mr. Frank Probst @ #34….get that intern following Mr. Fitzgerald around everywhere (or maybe a flock of FDL interns?)…and don’t forget, Mr. Fitzgerald also has Conrad the Marauder Black in his sights after the flipping of David Radler.
.
Glad to see the updated portion on this post moments ago, because initially, I agreed to disagree with the overall “feeling” of this topic. It gives the impression that other reporters have some kind of ulterior motives. The story undoubtedly has legs, as proven by the superb reporting here at FDL. But in order to maintain that status, with nanosecond attention spans in the country today, we need it CONSTANTLY highlighted, even if there is minimal new information. Schuster has T.V TIME. Many reporters online do not. So for the public, and not simply the internets to stay aware, its good for Schuster to incite a little, shall we say, UNEASE in the rethug populace out there. If turd-boy is indeed indicted, I suspect one of their WORST nightmares will have come true. Keep that in mind when trying to DISSECT the other information gatherers on this subject. Thanks for the hard work.
P.S. The grand jury aspect of the story is what caught my eye initially. I waited to put this detail as an after thought,just as this post did. Easy to lose sight of the important details SOMETIMES. :)
ppirt (sorry, is that your handle? can’t tell what the first letter is) 64:
Harris linky (via Josh Marshall)
Here’s a question for discussion. Jane alludes to the dance between Fitz and Libby over discovery regarding Rove.
If you’re Fitzgerald, does indicting Rove hurt your overall progress (by complicating discovery issues, or other possible unintended side effects of pursuing both cases at once), or does it help (e.g., by setting up a “prisoner’s dilemma” over who might flip first)?
How Fitzgerald answers that question will probably determine whether Rove is indicted soon.
Thanks for bringing clarity to the Rove=Subject claim, Jane. It’s really shameful how garbled stories get — like the old Telephone game — often, I think, because reporters report on one anothers’ reports. At least when scholars do it the reader can turn to the footnotes to know whether the source of information is primary or second-hand . . .
By the way, Clusterfuck could STILL pardon Rover on the last day of his administration, even if Rover hadn’t been indicted yet- in fact he probably would- so Fitz gains nothing by that 2 1/2 year wait.
Swopa–
Perhaps a look at Mr. Fitzgerald’s past performance is worth considering.
Is it not one of flipping up?
.
Jeff — you are right, they did say “scheduled.” I’ll change the post. And they are a sitting grand jury, they could be meeting over any number of things. The thing that makes it suspect is Shuster’s reporting that defense attorneys say there is activity on the CIA leak case.
And I’ll defend Shuster here a bit. No he has not produced a lot of ground breaking stuff, but he tends to reflect things as known pretty fairly and he doesn’t buy into a lot of the bullshit that others have, especially on cable news. I remember the days when Luskin was heavily peddling his various and conflicting stories and virtually everyone was repeating them like they were gospel; Shuster did a pretty good job of keeping it clean.
Timewarp - Gravity’s place of dishonor in the EPU is best reflected in these lyrics by the great Jim Carroll, from his great song Wicked Gravity from his great album Catholic Boy:
Wicked, wicked, wicked, wicked gravity . . .
Wicked, wicked, wicked, wicked gravity . . .
Wicked, wicked, wicked, wicked.
:)
this has always been a political game for rove rather than a criminal matter. i think he’s stalled the inevitable indictment everyway he could–perhaps to his legal detriment once the ball gets rolling–just to keep the president looking good, but he’s running out of moves… but, i’m traveling and my designated rove bubbly is at home, so i just hope they wait until after monday…
spine 62 -
Dunno. But I’d bet that’s a Windows machine.
Solution is easy. OS X.
sorry for the snark, but I’d bet most tech cries for help are MS induced.
So there ya go, no black holes in an EPU!
Blank Kludge - I think Shuster has a valid point. You only get to be A, rather than J or Z (and no, I was not referencing the rapper) or named outright, if you are part and parcel of the investigation - i.e. a subject target. It is a fair analysis by Shuster, statistical protocols notwithstanding.
OT - I was thinking maybe it was a scrant?
EPU,
My bad. I should not have called Rove a target. I know better. He is only confirmed to be a subject. If a target letter has gone out, nobody has reported it that am aware of.
Jane,
I understand your caution, but I still have a nagging feeling that SOMETHING is in the air.
I agree with RWCole’s bullet points though am not willing to commit to the 30 day time horizon.
If I were in PJF’s shoes, i would want to wait until Team Irving had run the entire pool table of availble discovery motions, motions in limine (to limit the evidence that may be offered at trial. If you don’t get all the discovery you ask for on something, sometimes you can get an order saying the other side can’t put the topic in at all to prove their side of the case) and assorted other pre- trial motions squared away and have the Irving case locked down for trial before I opened a new can of worms.
Once those decisions have been made, they become “law of the case” and shouldn’t be undone be outside events.
Of course Team Irving will make a motion to try undo them anyway. As a wise man once said, $5 million buys a lot of motions.
If I were him, I would string this GJ out until Team Irving had used up every pre-trial arrow in their quiver. Both to contain the issues in the Libby case and Keep It Simple Stupid; and to avoid drowning myself in additional motion practice from new indictees.
Further, are the continuing spectres of Saturday Night Massacre and profilactic pardons (like Poopy Bush and Ford did).
T’were it me, each leg of the journey I would wait for a little gust of that wind of public support we were discussing earlier, to carry my little prosecution ship closer to it’s safe harbor.
But that’s just me, and I don’t know what he knows or what information is informing his decisions.
spine 62
(snark free this time)
maybe another browser?
good luck.
Timewarp - Actually, that debate has not been settled. It’s sort of like when we tried to go to the metric system here, never caught on (other than the new metric math). Same thing withour physical laws, people just like the relativistic as opposed to the quantum; that multiworld stuff just confuses people - they never know where they are.
#70
THANKS Leslie in CA
ppirt = tripp backward . . . how clever am i. . .
oh that poor boy . . . so close to the evil . . .
spine #62,
When I tried to get to the late night post comments, my ‘puter would say’loading’ for a while and then go to a white screen with ‘done’ at the bottom.Tried several methods. I use firefox. Tried IE, no luck. Had my ‘puter guy check into it,he found some arcane firefox bubblegum fix. I said No Thanks. I finally disabled Norton antivirus program. BINGO! Might try something like that. It got to be a huge post, maybe too much file space, I dunno.
OneEarCauliflowered–
Like that term….’prophylactic pardon’
Sound just like what they are.
EPU
Fair enough. (On both counts)
Rove and Scrant. Sounds like a new shingle.
Plamegate - The Basics
The first basic is Niger-yellowcake and the war in Iraq. The case and authorization for the war in Iraq is contained in the Iraq War Resolution passed by Congress in October 2002. Yellowcake and Niger are not expressly mentioned. However they are undoubtedly subsumed in one of three particulars in one of 23 clauses that justified military action: “Whereas, …Iraq ….continuing to … actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability.” Thus the yellowcake ‘business’ was just one specific, of one WMD concern (nuclear), of one of 23 clausal rationales for going to war. What this nets out to is the following: If there never had been any intelligence on Iraq-Niger-yellowcake, bogus or otherwise, we are still at war in Iraq.
The second basic is that Plamegate began with a misdeed. Joe Wilson who accepted a classified mission to travel to Niger and investigate the yellowcake claims, later disclosed that classified information to a journalist (W. Kristof), and he was not authorized by his sponsor to do so.
The third basic is about Valerie Wilson, the wife of Joe Wilson, who it turns out was directly involved in his mission (which is not to say she brought him to the table). So Joe Wilson, in his decision to violate both the implicit and explicit rules of his relationship with the CIA, also put in jeopardy the classified nature of his wife’s real career status. Unless Valerie Wilson told her husband beforehand that he was free, as far as she was concerned, to disclose the government secret that the CIA sent him to Niger (etc.), then Mr Wilson acted very recklessly with respect to a U.S. intelligence officer.
The fourth basic I think about is the fact that this started out as a possible law violation of the Agent and Sources Identity Act. Then there was the possible law violation of Unauthorized Disclosure of Classified Information. Now of course we have devolved to Perjury. I am not dismissive of any of it. But in view of the basics enumerated above, my patience has worn thin and, in the scheme of things, I would like Mr. Fitzgerald to fish or cut bait. This in reaction to J. Hamsher’s notion that this is going to go on for another couple of years. It seems pretty small beer at this point.
ppirt 84, you’re welcome. I thought the first letter had to be a p, but for some reason the tail doesn’t display. My high school principal was named Tripp, so that’s always my first association for that name . . .
#83 is for MKultramaroon too.
Loosehead - They really are the same thing. The CM may want to parse them out, but if you are a subject you pretty well know that you are a target and it is just a matter of time. It really works out to nothing more than what might be considered fair notice form the gov’t.
Could the Libby trail be on tv? Court Tv?
timewarp, #51
fold, spindle, and mutilate are not options ???
technically, if you’ve ever heard “You Are A Fluke” by The Tubes, you’re required to do this every time you have the opportunity
and now, back to your regularly scheduled gabfest
I second Jane’s criticism of poorly sourced stories (always unnamed) that are essentially ‘wild speculation.’
If I see a story by Jason Leopold (who has disappointed too many times to count) or Rawstory, I don’t bother. Their stories are worthless.
guhhhhh
AGAIN….putting the integrity of those reporters who seem to be on the same page as us “thinking” people, on the line, inadvertently casting doubts on their content, can backfire.
1. For all the Right Wing ilk out there “poorly dessiminating” and trying to spin the matter in Libby’s and Rove’s favor, this serves as a trampoline for their cause. It will give them, although temporary, a “bounce” with pushing forth their deceptive cause. Infighting, doubt-casting, calling in to question’s, always helps teh “other side”.
2. Schuster and Leopold could very well be here and take this reporting as a slap in the face and interpret it as being called liars or maybe TABLOIDISH. This can cause what #1 characterizes, infighting, as well as calling into question of integrity, which therefore causes MANY to “wonder” and others to run with it back to rightwing blogs, including Drudge, and the next thing you know, its being pipped on all the so called news outlets. This is EXACTLY what happened with the “Wilson lied” “Plame isn’t covert”, memme. Please don’t give them another talking point and a bullhorn to blow alot of hot air into Tweety’s ear, causing him to “put Schuster on the spot” and have him looking like snotty Scottie Mcliar. Rethink the fact-checking posts when you target those who seem to support our viewpoint. There’s much more fact-checking that can be done AGAINST the otherside….OK?
I like your assessment, rwcole #54!
Tank - As far as I know, no federal courts allows TV cameras. Expect the CM to file motions that of course they should allow TV coverage, but it won’t get far.
But hey, you get cool artists’ renderings instead, which is nice.
freepatriot, why not? Its an EPU!
And EPU, no need to choose, you can have it all - try adding some supersymmetrical weakly interacting massive particles (WIMPS) - encompasses both relativity and quantum theory.
;-)