
Guest Post by Ian Welsh
I’m in the odd position of being a Canadian who does most of his blogging on American politics for US blogs. It’s a kafkaesque exercise at times, and the recent Iran mess has reminded me yet again, that to a foreigner, the US really is “through the looking glass”.
Because to me the conversation on Iran isn’t sane. In fact, the idea of bombing Iran, either large scale conventionally, or, even worse, with nukes, is one I’m astounded is even being considered.
Let’s deal with the specifics from one Canadian’s point of view.
First: bombing a country is a declaration of war and Iran will react to it as such. To meaningfully damage the Iranian nuclear effort will require massive bombing. This isn’t one pinpoint attack. Oil will soar to $150 a barrel or so, your economy will crater, so will everyone else’s, your allies will abandon you and you will be all by yourselves. And people won't blame the Iranians, they will blame you.
Second: Proponents of bombing Iran spend a lot of time talking about how Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism. Iran doesn't sponsor terror against the US, at least not recently. You do this, that'll change. You do this, you will come to see 9/11 as the good ol' days when you only lost a couple thousand people, because not only is Iran a State sponsor of terrorism – they are very very good at it and there is every reason to believe they have cells in the US. And we haven’t even talked about the fact that even if most Americans don’t know it, most foreigners are well aware that the US is, itself, a huge state sponsor of terrorism.
Third: A lot of this is being driven by the fact that Iran does sponsor terrorism against Israel and that Iranian nukes will threaten Israel (note that they will not threaten the US directly.) Israel is the nation which spies most on the US. They are not your friend, whatever you may think. Of course, given the power of the Israeli lobby, and the specter of being called an anti-semite, no one is willing to say this. Let the Israelis deal with their own damn problems, it's their bed, let them lie in it.
Fourth: Bush brought this on America by invading Iraq. The lesson of Iraq is this: if you have nukes you won't get invaded. If you don't, the US will (compare and contrast: North Korea/Iraq). Iran is acting entirley rationally.
Fifth: I think Canada should have nukes, because I know you invaded Iraq based on lies. I don't want Iran to have nukes, but if I were the mullahs I'd be doing the exact same thing. The Mullahs aren’t nuts – they’re acting in self preservation. I know why they’re doing what they’re doing and it is perfectly 100% rational
Sixth: I have to tell you, that from a foreigner's point of view, and this is true even in your closest allies (the majority of Britains, for example) you are a rogue nation. You invade people based on lies. You have no credibility on Iran. You are the boy who cried Wolf. You don't obey the Geneva conventions. You have secret prisons. You torture people, including the citizens of your allies. You have abolished habeas corpus for classes of people. You kidnap foreigners and secretly ship them off to be tortured. You have endorsed Bush’s war crimes – crimes for which Americans hung Nazis who had been in no way involved the with the Holocaust. You could produce pictures of nukes and missiles and half the world wouldn't believe you. Even if we did believe you, we don't care enough to endorse going to war with Iran.. There are only two nations in the world who constantly talk about how they're willing to nuke people without even being attacked first: The North Koreans - and the UNITED STATES.
You gave up the ability to stop countries like Iran from getting nukes when you invaded a country like Iraq which had no nukes and no real possibility of getting them. That was your wad, and you blew it. You chose to be weak. At this point, for you to stop Iran would involve you in a war you cannot win – or at least no victory worth having. You can’t occupy Iran, so are you going to really glass Tehran or the entire country? Do you know what the world reaction would be? Do you know what would happen to the dollar? Are you out of your minds?
Why is this even being discussed? And why is it that I can’t simply dismiss it as diplomatic posturing? When did the US step through the looking glass? When did insanity become reasonable?
Update: To help us take action on Iran, please scroll down to read this entry about our Roots Project. Thanks! -- Pachacutec
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Fitz it to me!
You betcha.
Firedoglake and Fitz and Feingold.
Typo:
“Fourth: Bush brought this on America by invading Iraq. The lesson of Iraq is this: if you have nukes you won’t get invaded. If you do, the US will”
should be “if you don’t, the US will”
Great post, Ian.
I hope you don’t mind my little call to action link at the bottom as an update. Since you write about Iran, I wanted to be sure to give our people every chance to get together to make a difference.
Insanity became reasonable after 9/11, as far as I can tell.
It’s as if we decided to take on the attributes of the worst of the worst and proudly, loudly display them for all the world to see: You think they’re nuts? Look at US! We’ll teach ya!
It is the worst time I can remember because the press is weak and/or subverted. The Congress is weak, venal, Republican and wants only to remain in power. We have forgotten how truly awful war can be, most of us. Not many remember the Great Depression. Damn if I know what to do.
Sorta EPU’d –
Building a military base on top of the Babylon archaeological site is a crime against human history, and is one more confirmation that Bush is the Anti-Christ.
Satan probably impregnated Bar Bush with some Hitler sperm, damaged by his multiple addictions; but whatever, George W Bush is the MOST EVIL human on the planet.
No, Mr Bush — the President of Iran is not the next Hitler — YOU ARE.
I am a former Marine Corps Officer, and I watched the run-up to Iraq while stationed with an Infantry Battalion. I shook my head at that one, but this time… I just have to say that you nailed it on the head. How can so many people be so willfully blind that they can not accept that our myopic view of ourselves is not how we are viewed by the rest of the world. This idea of attacking Iran is unadulterated insanity. There is absolutely nothing good for the USA that will/could come from it. If enough shout this from the mountains, maybe people will hear it.
Shorter Ian Welsh: Iran is more trustworthy with nukes than the US is.
Right-wingers will see that comment as satire. The reality-based community will see that as, well, the reality.
Well said, and I agree with everything you say.
BUT, I can’t get over the deep feeling that all this Iran nonsense is just a diversion. A way to keep our eye off whatever sleight-of-hand is being perpetrated today, and covering up for yesterdays unconscionable acts.
the two-state solution of Israel and Palestine co-existing is not the only solution. A number of folk worldwide think there should be just one country using the old name of Palestine with all citizens having equal citizenship rights. When you hear talk of annihilating Israel, it doesnt mean wiping the humans off the map but restarting that territory with a single, multinational state.
If I was Iran or any country with oil interests, I would pay any money to NKorea to get nukes. Self defense. No more, no less. US will run away from lit ike baby holding a hot potato.
This common sense somehow is lost on Americans who believe in God is blessing them and Christ is republican.
Ian- well said. Nothing to disagree with in anything you’ve said. From the comments I’ve been reading, I imagine that most of the regular commenters here would support the views you give. And, with that said, anticipating a reaction if the trolls show up do not feed them. Pach, are you on it? I have a few names from the past…
What does talking to our Senators do if Bush doesn’t actually go to Congress to ask for authorization on Iran? Is there any likelihood that he actually would bother with Congressional approval?
I can see Senator X voting against a force authorization if he got a lot of heat from his constituents. Maybe. But if Bush doesn’t ask first, Senator X is more likely to say some sort of “gotta support the troops in harms way” BS.
‘bombing a country is a declaration of war’
Is this really so hard to understand???
Now I know there is nothing more patronizingly sticky than a crotch full of condescending maple syrup, I love FDL don’t water it down with muck.
Every “you” in your article makes me feel physical pain, because I know this is how we’re seen in the world and I really believe our president doesn’t care how it may affect us, the American People who have never for a minute believed in him or his ignorant policies. I have a hard time going to markfromireland’s site for the same reason,in spite of his wisdom he blames us too because the world shouldn’t be expected to understand that there are millions of people in this country who are not like the “you” in this piece. We are loving and gentle people of all religions and races who want so much to return to caring for our own and having a country we can be proud of with a governmnet that is strong by showing compassion for the planet and all it’s people. We have never been touched by war the way so many others have been and yet the strike on the WTC has changed millions of people into warmongers who see nothing wrong with the horrible expense in human lives we are paying. I am talking about our own soldiers, yes, but I am also talking about everyone who has been killed as a result and those whose lives are forever changed. There are sisters and brothers and mothers and fathers who will always be in pain because they don’t know whether thier loved ones are alive or dead, if they’re in prison or have been hidden somewhere on a lie for political or monetary gain. It’s the overwhelming grief of this and many countries I feel, and the pain of loss that really never heals. I am very uncomfortable with this post because I want to pound a table and say this is not me, this is not us in community at firedoglake. It is not, but to the world, where we write out words doesn’t matter, it’s where we live that does.
IL folks - if you haven’t checked your emails, please do. Mack has made a proposal for tomorrow and we need your feedback.
Everyone - this week is the one year anniversary of the death of Marla Ruzicka and her colleague Faiz Ali Salim. Marla’s organization, CIVIC, is asking for a week of activities on behalf of the innocent victims in Iraq. Local activities and vigils are being planned - here’s an immediate action you can take and the Roots groups can perhaps support:
A Week of Action for Victims of War
On the road from Baghdad Airport one year ago yesterday, Marla Ruzicka and her colleague Faiz Ali Salim were killed by a suicide bomber while advocating on behalf of victims of war. Today we reflect on their powerful voices for compassion and remember all civilians killed or injured in conflict.
To mark this anniversary, we are launching a new website as well as a week-long advocacy campaign to raise awareness about the human cost of war.
CIVIC continues to be a voice for civilians caught in the crossfire and we need your help. Starting today and continuing for four days, you will receive emails announcing the ‘daily action.’ Each action is created to inform, energize and expand support for this critical issue.
Please help us make this week a success by participating in whatever way makes sense to you and helping us spread the word.
Click here to find or host an event in your area:
http://www.democracyinaction.o.....mplate.dwt
Thank you, as always, for your continued support of CIVIC.
As I said a couple of weeks ago:
“How stupid is attacking Iran? Extremely stupid.
If we attack Iran, we will almost certainly lose the tacit cooperation of Shi’ite Iraq.
Right now we can’t even handle the Sunni insurgency. If we lose the Shi’ites, it’s game over in Iraq. As in helicopters lifting the last Americans out of the Green Zone just ahead of the insurgents’ moving in.
Our ‘enduring bases’ ought to hold out a little longer, but mostly because they’re away from population centers and have runways for C-130 cargo planes.
But all in all, bombing Iran is pretty damned stupid. And that’s if the Iranians themselves do absolutely zilch to retaliate.
And they can do a great deal in the way of retaliation. For starters, they can cease oil exports for a few months, watch the price of oil double to $130/barrel, and make out like gangbusters when they resume oil sales…at half their previous output. For seconds, they could send a good chunk of their army into eastern Iraq, on the pretext of restoring order to Shi’ite Iraq - and our scattered, overburdened military would have a much harder time responding than you’d think. For thirds, they just might be able to instigate some terrorist attacks.
When you add it all up, bombing Iran right now would be incalculably stupid; it would be stupid raised to the power of the cardinality of the continuum.
Sometime in the future, I’d like to live in a country that’s run by people who have a clue or two to rub together.”
And that was even before OUR nukes got into the conversation. That part’s beyond insane.
Declaration of war = liable for war crimes.
end. of. story.
Thank you Ian– going back to read for the third time; not because I have reading comprehension problems– it is so wonderful to see the truth spelled out so well. ;(
Can’t you Canadians come up with some kind of rendition for Bush? Skip the planes and give the mission to the Mounties.
Thank You, thank you Ian! This post needs to be linked far and wide. You did a great job of laying it right out there in no nonsense terms.
And Thanks Pach for updating your post with your Roots contact info, I was channeling Me3 in that thread to urge people to please sign up. Here at FDL we need a permanent link to it in the sidebar or use the ‘Write Page’ function, to keep this project at our fingertips.
OT
Cracks me up to see DOJ going after other people for illegal wiretaps.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....d_wiretaps
pot meet kettle
We certainly went off the deep end on 9/11, but I have to think the roots go back much farther than that. I think American triumphalism after WWII played a part. So did the paranoia-come-triumphalism of the Cold War. After “the end of history”, the neocons just didn’t know what to do, but they knew the US was powerful, the only super power left, and “the essential nation.”
I have come to believe that there is an element in America that is truly evil, and I mean pure Joseph-Stalin-Pol-Pot-Nazi evil. Ever since the build-up to Iraq, the Al Stewart song “The Last Day of June 1934″ keeps running through my head. It is an odd song about Nazi triumphalism after the “Night of the Long Knives” when Ernst Roehm and the Brown Shirts were crushed, clearing the way for Hitler’s unchallenged control of the Nazi party.
Every time I think I’ve measured the depths of the administration’s malevolence, they show me how naive I am.
Wasn’t Iran supposed to switch from dollars to euros for oil trading? Whatever happened with that?
ck - Last thread. You are closer to total human consciousness than you think. Although I travel between universes, not the other way around.
MOre OT re: pulitzers.
I think Dana Priest’s was very well deserved, but the rest of the WaPo Pulitzers should be ashamed to be in the same competition with the gutsy, real to life, Times-Picayune - a paper that doesn’t need a steno pad and an Imnoturbudsman.
Kudos to Risen and Lichtblau too and to Kristof for his Darfur coverage.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200.....hdA–
VG: keep your eye out. I have a lot to catch up on after my weekend away. Thanks1
Mary - Even in the EPU, a pair beats one of a kind.
I like the post, even if it was written by a sinister Candadian. Ian Welsh leaves out one aspect that should be of major concern to a US citizen, and that is that whatever the best course of action actually turns out to be over the next two and a half years, it should be debated in Congress, and should be the result of additional Congressional action explicitly authorizing it.
Somebody wants to nuke Iran in next six months? Somebody wants to try a conventional strike to destroy the nuclear program? Someone wants to do another invastion lite and then skip out after the shock and awe is over? Well, I think that the first one is absolutely bad under any scenario that arises over the next few years. The later two look like very bad decisions at this time. But if BushCo thinks its a good idea? Fine, I’ll listen to them, but let them present it to Congress and let’s have a debate.
Part of the seeming hysteria on our center-to- left side arises from the fact that we are afraid that BushCo will violate the law and constitution (once again) and just go do it.
The awfulness of how BushCo might do this in terms of rule of law in the US is almost as bad as the consequences of the act itself. Because if Bush can get away with this illegality and fraud twice, it sets a de facto precedent that will be a problem in the future. That is, it will invite future unilateral and bad faith executive adventures leading to misery and disaster.
For those few who think this issue is a diversion, I think they should consider the following: if we put equal focus on BushCo’s ideas about how the President gets the power to do these kinds of things, it is not a diversion anymore. It goes right to the heart of the unitary executive idea, and their “in a time of war” BS.
I saw ‘V’ today.
Mary and all Plameologists: check Tortoise’s post near the end of the last thread re the secret docs.
OK, everytime I post, the next screen I get is an error screen; although if I then load up FDL anew, my post is there. Very new and very annoying.
EPU - you are here to witness me emulating you again!
Its OT, but here’s a repost (just because it’s a Plamey thing).
Mary, Angie, FDLers
There is one more page on the NYSun web site that does not show up (at least on my computer). It is the cover memo for the July 7 version: http://www.nysun.com/pics/31062_2_0.jpg It is approved by a William Wood rather than Thomas Fingar and also has one more line — Distro: S, D, P, PA
That’s probably not very important, but this one may be a biggi — (I can’t take any credit - it was spotted by Cecil Turner on Tom Maguire’s blog, 1.33pm): It looks like the word “TOP†has been deleted from the space before “SECRET†in both the July 7 and June 10 documents (except for the appended 2/19 memo). And before paragraph 4, there is a one-letter space between the opening parenthesis and the letter “Sâ€, where the “T†has presumably been removed. These redactions seem to have been done to hide the actual classification level of the document. Assuming, of course, the deletions were made prior to declassification - I suppose it’s just possible (but very unlikley) that somebody at the NY Sun might have done some extra editing.
The gaps correspond to the number of spaces for “TOP†- very easy to see because its a fixed-space font. Also, there’s an underlined leading space before “Secret†in several places. Unlike underlined trailing spaces (which are common with word processors) I would assume that an underlined leading space is unlikely to occur without a preceding word.
Its very interesting, but I have no idea what it all means. Looking forward to hearing from the experts :0)
Russ’ censure means more each day.
Impeach!
Thank you for your candor. I can assure you that some of us in the US are as freaked out about this as you are. And we won’t allow another senseless war (at best) to happen without doing everything we can to prevent it.
I apologize if this has already been posted but this animation by Union of Concerned Scientists gave me a better idea of the horror being discussed. We need this to be common knowledge.
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_s.....tml”
Katymine last thread.
I am not from another planet, I AM an evil parallel universe. Why the insult? And, if you don’t get sarcasm when it hits you right between the eyes, that’s on you, not me.
Tortoise - Glad I was here to witness it.
In January I sent this comment to an emptywheel post around to my family. They responded that they were very worried–was I taking all my meds? See for yourself:
I grew up in middle America, where they don’t like to be told to vote for someone who will take away their guns and who will secretly give birth control to their 13-year-olds. Speaking as a parent, the birth control item makes sense. Regarding guns, I read an interesting blog that said the purpose of the Second Amendment is for when the First Amendment fails. Not sure if I’m totally with that, but interesting.
Now the battle is within the Republican party, for a realistic policy that takes into account our international treaty obligations, versus those who would have us face the world alone. A cold choice.
Whatever happened to universal consensus about Geneva Conventions? Do we really want to disengage from international treaties on biological and chemical war? Does the lone cowboy worldview make sense in 2006?
The neocon party currently in charge is steering us toward yet ANOTHER war of aggression: Iran.
I read somewhere that one of the first symptoms would be the appearance of numerous speakers we never heard of on talk shows speaking about bad bad bad bad Iran. You know, we could strike them with our vast military might. Do we even HAVE a vast military might, short of nukes? Our army is utterly depleted. Marines and air force not far behind. We could attack Iran, but then what?
I just wonder, maybe this time the nation we are attacking would respond. They could respond by attacking Israel/Jerusalem or other western friendly targets.
Is this the road we want to go down? For the neocons and the rapture folks, sure. I am a Christian, yet I cannot go along with those who would be fine with killing millions, on the OFF CHANCE that it might be the End Of The World and hence rapture/entrance into heaven. What if they are just totally wrong an end up killing millions of people? And they are trying to respond to the Holocaust where millions of people were killed? So….even, what? And then what about those of us who just want to live?
The same dark forces that killed John Kokal and Dr. David Kelly (”suicides”……..I don’t think so) are urging us to enter another war of aggression. Are there enough of us to resist this possible beginning of a true World War III?
Posted by: egregious at January 18, 2006 08:47 PM
Oops, try again.
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_s.....ation.html
OT– check this out re Joementum!!!
http://connecticutblog.blogspo.....colin.html
I am awed by your post, Ian. I respect you so much for just translating the spin into the truth. It is the way we should all be speaking to each other and to our neighbors all over the world. Thank you again. It is bookmarked for future dissemination, with your permission.
I guess I stand among the few here on this one. People tend to not appreciate the global link in contemporary society, that the U.S. does not exist in a bubble to itself is as important to realize for the world community as it is for U.S. citizens. Every country votes for corporate Bushist power, greed is not the property of the U.S. Why has Canada and the two faced Europeans with all there intellectual snob hobery themselves not made more than a pitiful effort to stop the U.S. My guess is their sneaky covert governments and corporations are all a part of it or the U.S. would have failed long ago. Other countries should try a look in their own toilet, root out their own stink so we have a better chance to root out ours. I don’t want to do your dirty work no more! And yes even the sweet neutral Helvetians.
Tortoise - It is all bullshit. I realize I am a voice in the wilderness at times regarding all alleged “Developments Libby”, but the point is that there is no there there (or anywhere else).
It is all meaningless to his trial, and, more importantly, all meaningless to the societal debate on ChimpCo’s failures, lies, etc. That has been decided. Not thta the lying defenders of the corrupt regime don’t deserve to be called on every lie, they do. But nothing is going to change the publics’ perception (and a rightful perception at that) that from Chimpy on down, they’re all incompetent failures and their policies are all based on lies.
Shorter me - They are beating a dead horse that has already left the barn never (I know, mixing metaphores, or perhaps conflating them, but I’m in the mood).
It sounds a little weird, but what in the hell are people doing in Iraq trying to protest the war there? Or convert folks to know the peaceful efforts of christian science journalists or Christian peaceniks? They need to be here protesting. Anyone there representing anything we think we stand for-good or bad– is extending an open invitation to the insurgents to whack off their heads.
We need organized protests that mean something in this country, like open tax revolt. (Nice to think of it after filing deadline for income tax.) maybe our little dab doesn’t mean much, but thoreau did it, and others, to protest the mexican war, and by God, we need to get started doing something like that before the bush bunch ignite any more of their insane empire fires.
Come to think of it, this immigration thing is about picking a fight with out neighbors to the south. Those folks see the nature of this beast. Clearly.
I can see the fear in their eyes, when they pay me their rent…which they do very faithfully. Fear can turn to defiance so easily. When it does, I’ll side with them.
DAMN These BULLIE TYRANTS AND THEIR BLOATED PROITS! DAMN THEM ONE AND ALL!
neveron 42, last para.EPU–Lovely! My dead horse left the barn a long, long time ago. Thanks!
C’mon, Ian.
Mister Bush is just trying to protect the Free World, which, even though you have that socialistic health care thingy going on up there, Canada is part of.
He’s not asking YOU to bomb Iran. He’s going to do it for free. And where is your gratitude? You’re not willing to risk a little blowback in Montreal or Vancouver in order save us all from mosques on every street corner? We should have anexed you guys when we had the chance.
I miss all jane and all redd, all the time.
there. i said it.
the U.S. tried to annex Canada in the War of 1812 and the US got its ass whupped and its capital burned down … wrong move!
Whom does one call when dead horses are found wandering around? They have been a real nuisance lately.
I miss all jane and all redd, all the time.
there. i said it.
ME TOO!
PPP - I suppose you are just spoiling for a fight, so I am foolish to reply. But as somebody who is very familar with another country, I can tell you that the main difference is that most people in those countries actually do understand what is going on. Its only in the USA that the majority of the population are morons who gloriufy their own stupidity.
EPU - I have a pair of posts, so I’ll see your dead horse and raise you a barn.
“I’m in the odd position of being a Canadian,” pretty much says it all.
But in Canadian Bacon (Alda’s best movie by far), we kicked Canada’s ass. And if liberal Hollywood thinks we should kick Canada’s ass but we’re constrained from doing so for political reasons(they sorta look like us afterall), well, it’s only logical that we nuke Iran. Hey, it works for me.
If you haven’t heard of the SCO. Read this. Looks like Russia and China just made a pretty big statement here.
Other nations can play chess too.
(Snip)
“The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), which maintained it had no plans for expansion, is now changing course. Mongolia, Iran, India and Pakistan, which previously had observer status, will become full members. SCO’s decision to welcome Iran into its fold constitutes a political statement. Conceivably, SCO would now proceed to adopt a common position on the Iran nuclear issue at its summit meeting June 15.”
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/HD18Ad02.html
-GSD
Tortoise - Be careful, Punaise may be lurking.
umm, nobody can sustain that level of output very long.
Not really spoiling just rubbed wrong, Greed is not ours and neither is ignorance. It is because I am well familiar with another country’s… that I react so.
EPU,
If he were, he would probably point out that Bush has not been cowed in his game of nuclear chicken.
GSD– somebody mentioned that nobody could hit us with missiles (or nukes) thru AK the other day… I was banging my head in the garden after that… Russia will never back down, nor will China. Pandora’s box indeed. Sad thing is, I don’t think bushco plays chess, just dominoes (without understanding blowback.)
Ian,
I don’t know when America went crazy. John LeCarre said it before the Iraq war, that America had entered a period of madness. So many of us hoped that the fever would subside, but it looks like the cancer has metasticized.
The US, with Bush and Cheney and Rove at the helm does seem to be heading towards a point of self destruction all in the name of self preservation. It doesn’t make sense and there are so many of us who are trapped in this place.
The powers in control are no longer sane or rational and the train has jumped the tracks and the train it won’t stop going…no way to slow down.
-GSD
Hi y’all — First time poster, long time fan (a nicer word for lurker). On his best day, Bush only represented 50.5% of that “you,” meaning American voters, and only about 2/3 of those who voted for him were (and still are) batshit crazy. The remaining third were merely idiots who regret it now. The rest of us, who were always sane, are hoping to take some of our country back in ‘06 and the rest of it back in ‘08. If that doesn’t work, keep a light in the window, Ian, because I suspect there will be a lot of new Canadians!
Speaking of planning to attack Iran, has the “one Democrat” mentioned by Sy Hersh as being notified of the official Iran attack plan ever been positively identified? For a while I thought it might be Lieberman, but today he was quoted that “…he knew of no ’set war plans’ being drawn up by the Bush Administration…”
And why would Hersh be so mysterious about the identity? Seems to me that if he were known, a lot of pressure could be directly applied to him to maybe tell the Preznit that maybe it ain’t such a good idea after all to bomb Iran.
ppp,
I would tend to agree. Just because we’re idiots doesn’t make the rest of the world Jeffersonian democrats yearning to breathe free. Being a great power means our actions will have great consequences. Yet we have placed this responsibility in people who wouldn’t know what responsibility was if it kicked them in the ass. (Sorry for language)
I’m really happy about this:
Mike Luckovich was awarded the Pulitzer for his wonderful cartoon statement on Iraq
http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2.....ich01.html
I’m off to bed, sleep well, friends.
Be nice. We need nice.
Good one, Mr. Jass.
“Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld asserted today that “progress has been good”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....tml?sub=AR
“There has been substantial progress, I think, in building a durable government during these last 3 years.”
http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/j.....680331.asp
EPU 28 - um, did I mention my OTHER Senator is Bunning?
Now whether he is pairable with anyone is a question, but fwiw.
Yup, Israel spies on the US more than anyone else. That ought to tell patriots something. This is not an anti-semitic observation - it’s a patriotic one.
Stating that the influence of pro-Zionist lobbies are damaging to US interests is no more bigoted than stating that Boston, MA was a major hideout for IRA terrorists, or that the Armenian lobby has been very powerful in the US (despite, even the assassination of a Turkish diplomat by Armenians on American soil). Does stating that make me anti-Irish? Anti-Armenian? Yes? No? Hypocrite much?
The thing I really can’t (under)stand is why stupidity and ignorance has become, in my generation, a point of “regular guy” patriotic pride. But I’ve seen it since I was a child, and now we can see the fruits of this development in US foreign policy - we can’t even be bothered to attack the right country.
Finally - someone needs to do a major re-assessment of nuclear policy for the post-contained world. Mutually Assured Destruction worked, and still works. But key to its premise is the ability to retaliate against a nuclear aggressor. Should Pakistan provide a nuke that bombs the west, might not Tehran be the site of retaliation? So what’s the disincentive? This is far more dangerous than proliferation among legitimate states…
Cozumel,
“There has been substantial progress, I think, in building a durable government during these last 3 years.â€
A statement that will be as true now as it will be in 3 years.
GSD - thanks for the SCO info. Looks like W has managed to solve the India/Pakistan tensions! Now they are both nuclear and pissed at the US. (and all those outsourced jobs may start to look like a very bad idea when SCO backs sanctions, eh?)
Superb post, Ian.
Although I don’t feel that I belong to this USA - the one controlled by and for these a*holes - it’s good if painful to hear honest words from the rest of the world. I’m with you, Zennurse, wanting to strike out blindly to try to ease the anger, fear, pain before it destroys more of my well-being.
Yeah, this is insane, illegal - any other judgment you can think of. Can we stop it? How? Congress is broken, imo; only what the leadership wants has a chance of happening. And even then - suppose that enough republicans join enough democrats to actually force a vote that makes sense; will these people actually stop?
Somehow I don’t think so. I don’t want to be completely pessimistic - for the last week I’ve been running all sorts of scenarios through my mind to try to figure out what action has the most chance of effectively stopping this madness - but the past behavior of these clowns makes me doubt that any ‘normal’ approach is going to have an effect. All I’m left with are things like a general strike; fomenting mutiny in the military; putting our bodies in the way of the actual planes. Is this as crazy as it sounds?
On a lighter note - *ilson: there’s probably lots and lots of solutions to the israeli-palestinian dance; if only they would actually talk to each other! Mindless jargon is not diplomacy, hemingway.
Mary,
McConnell and Bunning? Aren’t there laws against unnatural pairings?
BarbaraB– I second your plea– but the rethugs want walls around the country– nice new 21st century Berlin walls and no proper trade agreements with our neighbors. I would go for a real, live sponsor to shelter us as refugees from a country gone mad. There will be so many refugees.
Hey, maybe the Mars thing is not such a pie in the sky idea! Chimpy could be right about one thing. Maybe aliens can shelter the hopeless…
When did the US step through the looking glass? When did insanity become reasonable?
December 12, 2000
Oh Canada!
Great post Ian. Sometimes we need our friends to tell us the truths we don’t want to tell ourselves.
#59, angie: that was me who referenced the missiles/Alaska item. But you have the context incorrect. I asked “who” would fire missiles at us. Yes, Russia, and I “think” China have the capability, but they’ll never do it. Think “Boomer”. Part of our defense, nuclear missile boats….submarines. They’re out there right now, just sailing around. If Russia uncorks on us, those subs have standing orders to let their nukes fly. Boom, and down goes Russia.
Onward:
Mr. Welsh: there are many things in your article which I disagree with. Yet, sadly, many things in your article which I DO agree with. My giving a “blow by blow” of each of your points takes too much time…and may put many to sleep! So….let me suggest this:
I DO think your article is very well written, and sharp, in a good way. I would encourage you to send this article to editorial sections of all our major newspapers. I am quite serious about this. Most “here” are quite aware of the things of which you write. But I think Mr. and Mrs. America need to read your article. They’ll agree/disagree with much….but I think it will have an effect on folks. Please consider doing this. Thank you.
Ghostman
So now we have the State Department memo: http://www.nysun.com/pics/31062_2.php
Well, sort of. The sentences before and after the mention of Valerie Wilson have been redacted. Curiouser and curiouser.
“December 12, 2000″
I can still remember the empty feeling in the pit of my stomach. Perhaps many of us knew back then that that was the end of the good old days in America. I knew that my side lost, I just didn’t realize then, just how much.
-GSD
Ian, from one Canadian to another: Bingo!
“A lot of this is being driven by the fact that Iran does sponsor terrorism against Israel”
Iran sponsors Hezbollah, which itself is not a terrorist organization. 99.99% of Palestinians associated with Hezbolla one way or another are not criminals, don’t know anything about terrorists and could care less about America.
I wish we could say the same for groups America sponsors in Latin America and today in Iran.
and that Iranian nukes will threaten Israel
Iran has no nukes. Iran has repeatedly stated its intention to abide by the NPT. You’d think nothing would be simpler for the administration than to present evidence Iran has violated the NPT. Yet no such evidence has been presented.
How has it come to this? With the Generals speaking out, I’m hoping that a military coup of sorts will avert the unfolding horror of War with Iran. And if that doesn’t work, perhaps our mortal enemies of may youth, Russia and China, can stop this madness and save us from ourselves. The world isn’t anything like they taught us in ninth-grade social studies.
Israel has several hundred nukes and is NOT a member of the NPT…
Thank you Ghostman.
I still bang my head though. I do not trust us nor do I trust Putin. We crow about the demise of the Soviet Union, aka the only other memorable superpower. I believe they are a sleeping giant and they have a grudge against us and a desire to conquer the oil and gas rich lands of the Middle East to this day. They have real estate that is contiguous to those lands, we do not. Lots and lots of Americans will die in that boom scenario. They will protect their interests, to the death. All bets are off if we attack any country with nukes.
GSD #78
upon hearing ‘the news’ I immediately turned to my husband and said “These motherf***ers will make the Reaganites look Amish in their ambitions”.
BarbaraB - welcome aboard! and keep posting - we need all our voices!
Happy, happy, joy, joy!!!
http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/4/17/165450/305
Al Gore is getting the band back together.
Gore spokesman Mike Feldman confirms that the former Vice President is hiring Roy Neel, a key aide on his 2000 presidential campaign and the manager of Howard Dean’s 2004 run, to coordinate a new push on his main cause, global warming. …
Gore has said he’s not thinking about 2008 at the moment, but putting a political staff back together inches him that much closer toward being able to run for President. (Also reported today, his campaign committee has also written a check to a pollster, though they say it’s a debt from 2000.)
Thanks for your input, Ian. In addition to the insanity of nuking Iran, it is worth noting that it wasn’t very long ago that torture was unthinkable in the minds of most decent Americans as well.
9/11 really did change everything– mostly what it did was to reveal the terrible truth that we are not in fact a great nation.
I wanted to suggest hidden in all the frustration that not only do we have a great influence on others but also them on us. Many countries are deeply invested in the U.S. and have lobbyist and donate huge sums to Republicans and corporate thugs, don’t fool yourselves that were failing all on our own. A simple goggle will bring up that info. There are many inside and outside this Nation that are pleased with their profits and the Bushist’s though they may not say so in public or to the knowledge of the nationals. The world needs to make a cohesive stand as it is possible we won’t succeed on our own in war or peace.
Ian, way to desecrate the Canadian flag, my boy. But then again what is maple without the sap.
-GSD
83, angie…..well, I’m not so sure that Russia has such a grudge against us. Actually, I think that Russia has a TON of oil, they’re just still so technologically behind that their development skills are preventing full asset realization. Russia also has a TON of fertile wheat lands, but same problem as I just mentioned.
Now China…those are the folks I personally worry about the most. Finally, the “boom scenario” is actually just the old MAD theory. (mutually assured destruction). If somebody hurls nukes at us, MAYBE some missiles get in, but then those subs launch everything. The attacking country ceases to exist…right after us.
Folks used to make fun of the “MAD” theory….but it actually held up quite well over time.
Ghostman
ppp: sure some of the post rubbed me the wrong way, or it would have if it had been written before Iraq, or before three years of post-invasion criminal malfeasance and fraud that we have witnessed in that unfortunate country. I do not approve of a lot of what US has done in foreign policy, especially with regard to smaller poorer nations. But I don’t think the US has been uniquely bad in its behavior compared to other powerful countries. It is difficult to outdo some of the atrocities committed by the old USSR, PRC, Indonesia, Sudan, and others. But since the Iraq invasion, regardless of how disgusting (the US’s ex ally) Hussein was, the US has been lead by a rogue regime. Maybe not the worst by far, but I feel it has acted that way, and I do not like it one bit. The term “rogue nation†applied to the US, disgusts me. The implication that US has acted more roguishly than any other country would still disgust me. We still have lots of competition for bad behavior in the world. But it is a fact that Bush-Cheney administration have lead this country as if it were a rogue nation. That is something I cannot honestly deny.
I do not appreciate being told that I am responsible for, or approve, of the Bushites, since I have always actively opposed him, and the very few Republicans I have ever voted for, resembled GW Bush, or HW Bush, or Reagan, or that bunch in anyway. But I took that statement as a simple factual statement that many people around the world do hold the US public collectively responsible for Bush-Cheney now, after the 2004 election. That is a sad fact, but I think it is true. I haven’t traveled abroad since the 2004 election, but if I do during the remainder of Bush’s term, I will feel like wearing a ban-Bush button on my lapel. This is not only out of shame, but from a very eager desire to express my political opinion.
That the US has also damaged its self-interest and national security as well as its moral standing, makes it all the more infuriating.
PS to ppp #88: sure, many countries act badly and have shameful policies. So? Does that excuse us from acting atrociously? I remember France blew up a Greenpeace ship awhile back, and is being stubborn in the face of the social misery its necon ethnic diversity policies are causing. There are lots of slimy things that we can debate that France, or Germany and others have done in the last ten years. But that does not excuse us from giving into hysteria, fear and immorality.
spot on.
Ian, thanks for an interesting post. A question - in my experience, most foreigners I’ve met distinguish between Americans and the U.S. foreign policy. Do you find that’s still the case in Canada, or are things too far gone in the trust department? Because almost half the U.S. didn’t vote for Bush, and the majority of folks here no longer approve of him… And there is a great difference between “you have no credibility” and “the Bush administration has no credibility.” But cheers, regardless…
Seventh- Watch the world dump dollars, dump US assets, and stop buying Treasury notes….how’s that going to help our trade based economy?
I don’t worry too much about Iranian nukes, but a USD that suddenly is worh 1/10 of it’s current value should give us all pause to consider the ramifications.
i always like those canadians that hide canadian realities.
tell me please, why did canada join with france and the usa to effect a coup in haiti? removing jean bertrand aristide.
why did canada join with the usa,france, brazil, and chile i think, to energize death squads so as to eliminate the anti-letorteau[sic] aristidists?
why has it been that the canadian govt[supposedly leftist] has harbored letorteau[sic]in ottawa since the election of the aristidist, preval?
you canadians like to promote the idea that you are somehow independent of the evil empire. but, i keep finding you acting as amerikan lackeys..running dogs.
i think of somalia.
of afghanistan.
and of haiti, of course. what is it about haiti that provokes canada to join the usa in killing that country? of being a janjaweed in the western hemisphere?
you purport to be some king of anti-statist, some kind of anti-bushit.
so, tell us, why is it that canada joins in with the bushit to murder haitians, murder afghanis.
more to the point, tell us why the canadian intell services participate in echelon. why the canadian police state enlisted to join the cia with ewen cameron in montreal doing his usa-financed psychic-driving experiments on unwitting citizens of the usa.
and tell us, please, how the canadian sas has been invested into iran. for months the canadian sas has had its subalterns in the northeast of iran. why?
yet, i read you as if canada is the holiest of countries. how much compensation do you receive from the canadian govt?
OOPS! MISTAKE
the very few Republicans I have ever voted for, DID NOT RESEMBLE GW Bush, or HW Bush, or Reagan, or that bunch in anyway
***
To amplify: I will not accept Russia’s behavior in Chechnya, or China’s in Tibet, or Indonesia’s in East Timor (or more examples we can think of) as a standad against which to meausre the relative virtue or wisdom of US foreign policy.
Seems to me that all this discussion shows that MAD and all the other approaches to war, nuclear and otherwise, are passe—only as a world we haven’t figured it out yet. We need to start exploring new models of global existence. I know that sounds naive and trite, but it has to start someplace. Why not with a community like this?
Hello BarbaraB and welcome!
Ian, there’s been a number of news reports, including 60 Minutes, about your “oil sands” in Alberta. And we’re hungry, dontcha know? There are lots of very good neo-conny reasons to bomb Iran, among them $150/bbl oil, which makes those sands in Canada more than viable, extract-wise. Billmon had a great contrarian post this weekend about the potential for a giant worldwide “so what” shrug should we bomb Iran, and I think Billmon might be right. Sure it’s illegal (except the Preznit did it, so it’s not) and sure it’s immoral (but that ship sailed a while ago). There’s no economy un-tied from the USA, since everybody owns our Treasury bonds now, and no one wants to see us isolated and reneging on our debt.
Oh, and zenn, I totally agree that “you” isn’t us, but you can’t spell Unitary Executive without “U!”
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Had enough?
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Nicely put, Ian. A friend who recently traveled overseas on vacation came back with the clear impression that many people around the world think the US has lost it’s collective mind. They’re terrified. You’ve summed it up well.