(Guest poster from Needlenose)
Jane graciously invited me over to share some thoughts about the developing scare-a-thon with Iran, and considering the amount of required reading this has entailed, all I can say is ... well, thanks.
An irony here is that I'm really not even the Iran expert on my own blog -- that honor belongs to the equally pseudonymous Fubar, who posted in 2004 a pair of simple graphics that explained the issue from Iran's perspective, including this one (the flags represent U.S. military bases or overflight privileges):

So you can see why the powers that be in Tehran might be feeling a little paranoid these past few years, and why they might perhaps be interested in developing nuclear weapons as a deterrent. Another reason is demonstrated in this graphic:

Do you think Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei wants to end up like Saddam, or thrive happily like Kim Jong-il? It's not a hard choice.
Fubar had a stemwinder of a post yesterday detailing how far Iran is from being a genuine threat, but I would argue that Iran has also learned from North Korea in other ways. I wrote a year ago about how the Pyongyang regime has been scalding us by degrees with a mix of boisterous, seemingly unbalanced rhetoric and careful, methodical actions to increase its nuclear capabilities. That, in my opinion, is what is behind Iran's perversely celebratory announcement of what in fact is a relatively insignificant accomplishment.
They're not trying to defy us so much as to drown us out. Every time the United States tries to raise an alarm, Tehran responds with an equivalent flurry of sound and motion. Eventually, as North Korea has learned, the world tunes out the bluster on both sides as background noise, and declines to back a confrontation over minor violations... but over a period of several years, those small steps over the line add up to genuine progress to developing a nuclear arsenal.
The Bushites would like us to think that there's just as much of a method to their apparent madness, or so goes the wishful thinking:
"Their Plan A is to put incremental pressure on Iran so it will cave," said retired Air Force Col. P.J. Crowley, a National Security Council aide under President Bill Clinton who now works at the liberal Center for American Progress. "And there is no Plan B."
Unfortunately, as Joshua Marshall has eloquently noted, we can't be that confident:
... the evidence is there for the confluence of two destructive and disastrous forces -- hawks in the administration's Cheney faction whose instinctive bellicosity is only matched by their actual incompetence (a fatal mixture if there ever was one), and the president's chief political aides who see the build up to an Iran confrontation as the most promising way to contest the mid-term elections.
Even worse, as Josh noted in a follow-up, is a third dangerous element -- Dubya's "dimwit megalomania" (a subject which I've written about as well). Throw in the decreasingly hypothetical war games our military is engaging in, and it's clear that the danger is too great for any sane person to shrug off. The specter of the Bushites using the threat of war to hijack a congressional election again is bad enough, but the all-too-real possibility of parlaying the Iraq fiasco in a disaster of exponentially larger proportions makes it a genuine moral imperative for Democrats to do whatever they can to derail a new march toward war.
But how? Lots of good people have already pondered this question, including Christy and Parachutec on this blog. Out of all those who have discussed the rhetorical aspect already, John Aravosis makes a particularly important comment:
I think the Democrats' message and policy needs to be distilled into one single point. The Democrats always have ten pages of talking points, while the Republicans have a one-liner.
This is a problem that I had with the recent 123-page "Real Security" plan announced by the Senate Democrats -- being reality-based, we always argue issues like we're in a classroom or a court of law, where details and evidence matter. What we need to get better at is conveying one-line messages that hit people in the gut, but still communicate the right meaning.
I'd disagree with John and others, though, who think that we should target our verbal fire at Bush himself as unfit to lead us into war again. It's obviously true, of course, but especially as the Wurlitzer cranks up the patriotism-versus-ominous-foreign-threat themes, it risks making Democrats sound petty and somewhat disloyal (since he is, after all, the only president we have at the moment). Instead, we should communicate that there is way that Republicans do things that makes them inherently dangerous, and a way that Democrats do things that makes us better at keeping the country safe.
To succeed at this, we need to understand the values that separate Democrats from Republicans, then look for vivid imagery that conveys the difference. Over at Needlenose for the past few months, I've been trying to contrast Democratic common sense against the bad judgment of Dubya and the Republicans -- which doesn't sound all that powerful on its own, perhaps, but try these soundbites on for size (from a post I wrote about the politics of the Iran threat in late January):
The first words out of any Democrat's mouth when talking about Iran is that we shouldn't do what we did four years ago, which was to talk tough and then dive into a war without thinking through what would happen next...
... Four years ago, the Republicans scared people with talk of mushroom clouds just before a congressional election, and as a result we've lost more than 2,200 Americans in a country that didn't have a single weapon of mass destruction. How has that made us safer?
... It comes down to this: Tough talk without hard thinking cost American lives. Common sense says that we shouldn't trust our lives to that poor judgment ever again.
Does that work for anyone? If you can stand one more attempt at an aphorism, you could also say it this way: There's a famous old American tradition, "Speak softly and carry a big stick." The Republican approach has been to talk loudly and shoot themselves in the foot. Let's go back to the way that worked.
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Fitz and aaargh!
Somebody wanted a bomb.
“Do you think Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei wants to end up like Saddam, or thrive happily like Kim Jong-il?”
I don’t think it’s his choice.
One point:
- war disaster
- katrina disaster
- chemical regulator disaster
- port deal disaster
- capturing Osama and the Anthrax killer disaster
- North Korea with a nuke
…yet they claim they can protect us from the bomb…they don’t even take port security seriously
Cuba in the 60’s taught the world an important lesson: When the US is threatening you, you better get your hands on some nuclear weapons, othwerwise the US will come knocking! Notice that we did not attack a country where we KNEW there were WMD’s; instead we attacked a country where we knew there weren’t any.
Thanks so much Swopa for taking the time to do this. I asked Swopa to do this as someone who has followed the situation in the middle east and blogs about it with great insight. I really appreciate it.
the map with all the American flags is quite telling — before 1979 that designation could have been also applied to Iran.
“Notice that we did not attack a country where we KNEW there were WMD’s”
uh, Iraq?
Here is an issue for the Democrats:
Bring all the troops home, not just from Iraq, but from all the other places that we are occupying all over the world. Close the permenant bases in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, and bring the troops home!
How’s that for a message!
avaroo — please provide backup for your assertion that there were WMDs in Iraq, that would be the news of the day.
Avaroo - No WMD’s means we attack. WMD’s means we don’t attack. That’s what I was trying to say.
Wow, Swopa, I’m impressed. Also, great work that Fubar and you have been doing at Needlenose. Thanks, Jane, for inviting Swopa.
“Avaroo - No WMD’s means we attack. WMD’s means we don’t attack. That’s what I was trying to say.”
I know it’s what you were trying to say, but it is not correct. We CLEARLY thought Iraq had wmd, in fact, every member of the UNSC thought Iraq had wmd.
http://www.iranonline.com/iran.....ion-8.html
Only the Supreme Leader can declare war according to the Iranian Constitution and he is in charge of the military. I am wondering if alBaredei is speaking with him at all to defuse the situation. I have left a question about this on Mash’s blog which also has a diagram of the government structure.
http://www.docstrangelove.com/
Swopa, great map from fubar, thanks.
“The first words out of any Democrat’s mouth….”
IMO, the path to defeating the Leaker-in-Chief on Iran is firsst to use his mistakes on Iraq. He just got done saying that he leaked the NIE, because he wanted the American people to know the truth. The truth now as Juan Cole and others have pointed out is that with eighteen centriguges and weapons grade plutonium having to be about 85%? pure, the Iranians are about ten years away from a bomb. Why can’t he declassify the NIE again, just like he did before Iraq.
After we make that argument, we point out that when Clinton left office, oil was around $25/barrel. Not it’s almost at $70. If Bush wants to lob cruise missles into Iran, I am sure he can get the price up to $100/barrel.
Thanks for a great post.
“avaroo — please provide backup for your assertion that there were WMDs in Iraq”
What did you think Saddam listed in his 12,000 page declaration to the UN? Girl Scout cookie purchases?
some kind of WMDs were expected in Iraq - notably chemical weapons but no nukes were thought hidden in Basra, waiting to be used on Kuwait or Saudi Arabia or Israel.
Actually “WMD” is a new phrase, coined in the last 10 years I’d bet. I can’t recall it in use before the GWB regime…
What if all this turned out to be some sort of sick Rovian strategy to be able to say next October, Bush saved us from nuclear war, by stickin to his principles and not backin down?
Just a tin foil thought.
ilson46201
“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.”
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
“We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction.”
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998
This threat of Iran is much ado about nothing.
WE are the only nation to use nukes… the rest of the world keeps them as protection from US.
As much as I hate them things… remember climbing under our desks in grade school… MAD has worked in an insane way.
Now the challenge is to put the genie back in the bottle… which means that ALL nations disarm.
I think that would be a very good proposal from the dems.. complete and total world wide nuclear disarmament.
Let’s get rid of the MAD policy and the nukes too… for EVERY NATION.
well, I did not think he had wmd’s by virtue of the fact we had crippled him with sanctions and sporadic bombing. I heard what Ritter, Blix and ElBaradei said– it seemed to me then and now that he was trying to portray himself as capable of defending his country in the neighborhood and from his previous aggressors. The whole ‘everybody thought so is crap’, imho. The weapons he had were provided by us anyway and we knew what we had destroyed after Gulf war I and at what rate the chem/bio would degrade.
Thanks so much Swopa for taking the time to do this.
And thanks to Jane for inviting me, and for being so patient while it took me forever to write!
Wow that’s amazing. Everybody look. Avaroo has just proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq at the time we decided to invade.
The breath of intellect is staggaring, the logic unchallengable.
Somebody get the NYT on the horn, this is groundbreaking stuff.
way OT but too funny to miss:
“I have been an advocate of restoring voting rights to felons for many years. I think DeLay will enjoy my representation.”
– Virginia Delegate Brian Moran (D), quoted by the Connection Newspapers, on retiring Rep. Tom DeLay (R-TX) who has said he’ll change his permanent residence to Moran’s district.
“avaroo — please provide backup for your assertion that there were WMDs in Iraqâ€
What did you think Saddam listed in his 12,000 page declaration to the UN? Girl Scout cookie purchases?
The report provided and accounting of the destruction of the materials that he had before Gulf War I. As everyone knows, he had WMD programs before 1991. After 1991, the programs were shut down and the materials were destroyed, as was verified by U.N. inspectors. But you knew that, didn’t you?
I just love it when history is made at FDL- ROTFLMAO!!!
Two retired foreign service officers and a retired nuclear scientist have written a one-page “Don’t Bomb Iran” that can be used with your elected representatives. You can find it here
There’s a famous old American tradition, “Speak softly and carry a big stick.” The Republican approach has been to talk loudly and shoot themselves in the foot. Let’s go back to the way that worked.
bingo.
Avaroo - Post #16
His declaration to the UN included so called conventional weapons, but no nukes, biological, or chemical weapons. They maintained that they had all been destroyed, and they tried to accept any deal that would bring back the inspectors to prove that there were no WMD’s at all.
So many people and agencies in the intelligence community spoke out that there was no threat in Iraq. I sugguest the movie Uncovered, the truth about the War in Iraq.
Yes, the public face that they put forth said that there was WMD’s, but in their own assesments, they knew tha there was no chance of WMD strikes against the invading armies.
If Saddam had WMD’s, then the perfect way to get him to use them would be to attack. They knew he had nothing becuase of the 15 years of sanctions and 16 years of weapons inspections.
Tommy Franks on with Tweety right now. If there was a picture next to “military/industrial complex” in the dictionary, it would be Franks’ face with two copies of his book sitting on the window sill in the background.
He’s a neocon hack.
WMDs used to be known as ABC weapons: Atomic, Bacteriolgical, Chemical Weapons. Chemical weapons are fairly easy to make and use: the US itself used them in World War One. Iraq had used chemical weapons (which exist in different levels of nastiness. VX made in Indiana[!] can kill with one drop).
Atomic bombs are completely different in scale and destruction and political important.
Brady is holding the front page, Jane, call him NOW!! Did you get a screen shot?
angie, I never thought the Bushits were credible either. ElBaredei made much more sense. And Colin Powell’s little power point presentation to the UN was a lousy piece of acting. I knew in my bones they were lying and I was right!
Aside from that, Saddam would never have been a problem if Special Envoy Rummy & friends hadn’t made him a problem in the 1st place - way back in 1983.
DeLay in Virginia? Good gravy. If he runs for office he could be my Congressman. Garlic…wooden stakes…what am I forgetting.
Great post, Swopa. Probably the one thing that worries me the most about the present situation is what you referred to as Dubya’s “dimwit megalomania”. No other single thing frightens me as much.
Even at his belligerent worst, I’d always felt that Ronald Reagan was in complete control and had at least an idea of the consequences of his actions. He seemed to be capable of planning ahead a step or two beyond the immediate situation. It didn’t always work out for him, but at least I could understand what he intended most of the time.
Dubya seems to be only reacting to things after they go screwy, with no obvious plan or even a thought to what might happen when things go wrong. He’s lost and going farther off-course every time he makes a panicky decision.
I’ve often heard that in a democracy, people usually get the government they deserve. Dubya is the absolute worst person we can have as our President. What does that say about us?
egregious
a cross
“Brady is holding the front page, Jane, call him NOW!! Did you get a screen shot?”
Wait a minute! This could be my ticket back to the NYT!
Avaroo:
Let me type this slowly: Iraq. Did. Not. Have. WMDs.
At best, your evidence is just showing that Saddam would have liked WMDs, but as shown by the evidence that came out after we invaded, Clinton’s containment and sanction regime kept Saddam in a very tiny box where he was no threat to anyone outside his own borders — and given the no-fly regions, quite a few people inside his own borders too.
Your quotes from Clinton and Albright in February 1998? That was in the lead-up to Operation Desert Fox, where Bill Clinton ordered American air strikes against Iraq to force compliance with UNSCOM and destroy what little WMD capacity that Iraq still possessed.
We now know what the inspectors could have told us had we not invaded before they were finished: Operation Desert Fox was a success, and what little WMD hopes Iraq had before 1998 had been destroyed.
Ironically, all the Republicans were screaming “Wag the dog!” claiming that Clinton was using the bombing to divert attention away from Fellatiogate. And here we have Preznit Chimpy McScrewup with plunging poll numbers in the mid-30s, trying to start World War III to keep his base distracted.
That’s ancient history. We know he used to have WMD. As Chalmers Johnson has said, “we have the receipts.” The relevant question is whether he had them in this millenium. There is currently zip evidence that he did.
egregious– #34
silver bullets?
duct tape, tuna, powdered milk, tamiflu?
You might also consider moving elsewhere.
Great post, Swopa, thanks!
Here’s my proposal for a one-liner that stands up to the Bush-Rove propaganda machine’s wag-the-dog effort:
“Would you want to go through another war with this gang? Hell No!!”
Bob, it was not us, it’s the 51%, now significantly decreased and regretful, I hope.
There were millions of us who knew in 2000 that Bush was never going to be any kind of President and we knew it again in 2004. I couldn’t believe he was reelected, yet with the power and money from the Right and the CRight, along with significant lawlessness, he did.
I went to bed for a week.
Poot posted in wrong firefox tab oh well here goes again:
Folks the avaroo troll is a notorious redstate troll don’t feed it or pat its scaley little head for it.
Please don’t feed the troll.
OT: I just lived through something new: a major hailstorm passed thru my neighborhood with egg-sized hail. Noisy as all hell! My 4 pitbabies were totally freaking … I was distracted too.
Jane and folks, this avaroo is a hijack troll that I have seen ruin other sites with foolishness ad infinitum.
Place on ignore.
-GSD
Egregious a large mallet, some holy water, a shovel to dig the grave, a crossroads to dig the grave in. other than that you remembered everything :-)
avaroo — I’d be interested in who, precisely, besides us, seriously believed Saddam had WMD. As I remember it, Hans Blix, El Bareidi, certainly did not.
Swopa–amazing post. Thank you.
The neothugs wanted so much for there to be WMD’s in Iraq that they tried to help the process along by importing VX nerve gas (made in IN–sorry *ilson). Unfortunately for them Brewster-Jennings intercepted it in Turkey. Shortly after that their entire operation was blown, by our government. I’m so proud. My tax dollars, going to ruin true anti-WMD work.
Re Rumsfeld, people on active duty could speak out, but only once: it is a career-ending move. There is much unhappiness with his reign of incompetence and literal terror. How did it get this way, WE are the terrorists. I suppose Germany thought they were the liberators too.
Actually just put it on the spam list. Jane, Christy, Pach, et alia et varia.
http://clusty.com is a great place to search for suspected trolls as it you guessed it clusters the results. Here are the clusters for our scaley little visitor:
RedState (18)
⇨Blog Archive (8)
⇨Milanese, Gh’avareet (4)
⇨Warmblood, Virginia Sport Horses (4)
⇨Beli’czarius (4)
⇨Daily Ablution (3)
⇨Harry’s Place (4)
⇨Hoo (4)
⇨HaloScan.com (3)
⇨K2 Relay (3)
What is the possibility of:
Attack Iran, oil goes to $100/barrel. Cheney-Rummy instruct the boy to declare a State of Emergency extending into November.
???
avaroo 13 - what “we” ? Not me. I think on every objective measure of “WMDs” that was discussed (uranium pursuit, aluminum tubes, mobile labs, etc.) there were all kinds of people saying, “nah”.
I think the best you get is that a lot of the world thought Hussein was “pursuing” WMDs and might have some chemical wmds that had not been destroyed, bc they did not show up as having been destroyed (although delivery systems and other issues were questionable).
In the end, I guess it depends on how you define WMDs. Not many countries who cannot come up with a lethal chemical assault, given all the “just right” parameters. Actually, from that standpoint, what country does NOT have wmds?
GSD, markfromireland — a ha. Thanks for the heads up.
markfromireland,
I have your anagram (using yr screen name)
Elf, or Mr. Drama Ink? :D
Avaroo: There were no WMDs in Iraq. Hussein posed no imminent threat to the US (and for the sake of your credibility, don’t shriek about how “no one ever used the word imminent”–Condi Rice and Duck Cheney lying through their fetid, tobacco-stained teeth about “mushroom clouds” and “reconstituted nuclear weapons” MEANS imminent without saying it). I never believed Hussein had WMDs, based upon two things: my gut; and just how suspiciously desperate all the Bush Republicans were to tell me that H. did have them, despite the fact that every bit of evidence they presented was refuted by smarter, more honest, more reality-based people within a day or so. If you believe that the Bush Republicans really thought there were WMDs in Iraq then you’re either naive, a partisan, or both. They knew there were no WMDs there but they needed the scariest rationale possible in order to sell this utterly unnecessary war for their own delusional reasons.
mfi, the anagram seems a good combination of your impish spirit combined with the serious writer and blogger, of the kind who could post those searing photos of Good Friday morphing into Iraqi mothers grieving their sons. Thank you.
Look ya’all,hate to go off topic,but Joe Kline has put up a post at HuffPo about his Dems and Libs hate America comment.FDLers,theres blood in the water!
Eek! Just when I’d settled on Childish Piranha you offer me an excellent alternative oh decisions decisions :-)
mfi, I tried pretty hard to work in Denmark, but the only really good one had you as a liar. Just couldn’t do it.
the green lantern @ 4:17 pm (#41) - “Would you want to go through another war with this gang? Hell No!!â€
If only Abner Doubleday had decided two strikes would be an out. How different our foreign policy might be!
Egregious thank you, truly i appreciate your kindness.
I hope that my pictures of the american dead and their grieving families made the point that there are victims in the States too. Took me more than 8 hours to do that posting I had to keep stopping and crying.
Bilge - Clinton did wag the dog. He violated the UN Security Council resolution 1441 by using intelligence gathered by UNSCOM to launch unilateral attacks against Iraq.
He also launched a missle strike on a Sudanese medicine factory, which was supposedly against Al Quadea.
(I wonder if a terrorist destroyed between 1/4 and 1/2 of the medicine production capacity that we have in our country what we would have done about it)
Clinton is a War Criminal, a lesser War Criminal than Bush, but he clearly is. The Republicans did criticize Clinton at the time, and they all remain slient on Bush’s Much Larger Crimes now.
But Clinton is no hero, by any strech of the imagination, and we can’t apoligize for his War Crimes.
Great post and graphics SWOPA. FDL has been the launch point, for me, to find out about sites like needlenose, Greenwald’s Unclaimed Territory, Digby, t-bogg, nexthurrah, etc. and I appreciate that aspect as much as the actual posts here.
I’m not sure I go along with not attacking Bush and trying to keep from seeming disloyal, bc I remember Nixon and I remember what brought him down were direct attacks, not analogizing that he just didn’t have as good a process as the Dems.
Good decisions don’t come from lies and cronyism, and Bush is a liar surrounded by cronies who lie. It’s not a lack of process, it’s a lack of character and morality. IMO, fwiw.
Just an FYI.
Avaroo is a pure wingnut 100% Bush man who tries the “concerned liberal” schtick on other sites as well.
I’d say ignore him—he’s not an honest interlocutor.
Cujo 60 - *G*
Any comments on his views about balls?
Mark, there are no winners in this madness. Seeing the truth and respecting it is to honor the memory of all the poor suffering souls who never had the choice of being able to avert their eyes.
I just ate a “peeps” bunny. How is everyone else?
mfi, I believe that grief is holy. To experience pain over injustice to others is holy. To risk one’s life to help strangers, as you have done, and your son is now doing in Afghanistan, is holy. Good Friday: a day to reflect on matters of life and death.
Your tears are counted in heaven.
Yes, one picture IS worth a thousand words. Iran is a country of about 66 million people, with a per capita GDP of about $7,000. It is literally surrounded by the military forces of a country of about 300 million people with a per capita GDP of over $36,000. We’re big, they’re small, we have them boxed in, and, we want their oil (well, so does China and India).
Pithy, did someone say pithy?
Yeehaw is not a foreign policy. National security demands a rejection of the “Rubber Stamp Republicans.”
dannyboy@#48
Re: UN Arms inspector Blix
Hans looking for arms–ain’t that the shit!
My first post ever. Be gentle.
I have my own, personal talking point. It’s simple and ruthless. Perhaps it’s worth a shot on a national level. Let’s start our own word-of-mouth campaign right now. (If it takes off, remember you heard it here first.)
Don’t be smug. Don’t be condescending. Progressives should fight this stereotype; it props up the ‘elitist’ moniker. But when the opportunity arises, politely request an reply for the following:
Name one thing that this administration has done right. Just one… And, aren’t you tired of being afraid?
If I’m talking to a wingnut, fanaticism bubbles up immediately and Roberts/Alito is the first accomplishment listed; after that they run out of gas real quick (they typically don’t understand the question about fear). But why waste time on a kook? Attempt this with [intelligent] people who are amenable to discussion and debate. Let’s not waste our time on the red-meat dogmatics.
People’s reactions have been remarkably consistent. It begins with a wince as they think about it, then quickly morphs into obvious frustration, followed by enlightenment and/or anger.
Try it sometime.
Name one thing this administration has done right.
And aren’t you tired of living in fear?
Pass it on.
let us not forget Russia has long had an interest in Persia …
I’m not sure I go along with not attacking Bush and trying to keep from seeming disloyal,”- Mary
Does this refer to the generals, she asked, tilting her head in conf”usion.
Eric Alterman has a reply up to Kline’s post.It’s heating up quik!
And by the way,good thought provoking post Swopa,thanks.
rizbiz @ 71
That one’s a keeper. Take it and run with it folks.
rizbiz. welcome.
General Tommy Franks on “Hardball,” re: Rumsfeld -
“…ask him about the 14 months we spent planning this thing” (invading Iraq)
Will MSNBC sanitize the transcript and delete that?
Eek! Where are my manners? Welcome indeed rizbiz.
rizbiz, you should speak up more often. Join in, we don’t bite.
I love your idea, so concise, so elegant, so frustrating for a Repug.
lovely
rizbiz–Brave indeed! Good post, helpful ideas. Are we tired of being afraid….I think that could go places. Are we tired of our government thinking of new ways to manipulate us into being afraid, yep. To paraphrase my friend E. Greg Ious, the government says: 9/11 Boo! Iraq Boo! Iran Boo! Brown people Boo! Citizens who are paying attention: BOOOOOO
Don’t worry about responses to your post. First of all it’s great! Plus, most of us made mistakes on our first couple of tries, I mistakenly posted the same thing 3 times and was duly called out for it. Also was scorned for ‘giving up’ which is really hilarious if you know me, I do medical work in a developing country, and am the very opposite of giving up.
Welcome, and let us hear more of what you think!
Welcome rizbiz!
Swopa- thanks so much for the post- excellent writing and excellent graphics.
Jane- this is probably the only time that I will say this, but the troll comments were quite enlightening in a certain sense- to see the unfolding of the stupidity, and then the back atcha research by FDLers to out this guy, plus your own very funny comments. But no more feeding, fer sure.
Swopa,
Great incisive post, and yeah mad props to FUBAR.
That map looks like one used in a 10/01 Mother Jones piece about the coming Iraq invasion (are those people ever wrong ?) gave me and the ol man religion about what these murderous buffoons were up to
Thanks - always look forward to your posts and enjoy your comments
Swopa, thank you for yet more food for thought on this Holy day.
Mark From Ireland — and everyone else: those pictures are Stations of the Cross at an Episcopal church on Long Island, I believe (or New England, I forget where because their impact was just so strong when I first saw them). It still is. Perhaps, Mark, you could post them all? And also the name of the artist? It really is incredible work.
imman, we are SHOCKED that you have dipped into the peeps stash before Sunday. At long last, sir, have you no sense of decency?
Zen 73 - it was in response to this part of SWOPA’s post,
I’d disagree with John and others, though, who think that we should target our verbal fire at Bush himself as unfit to lead us into war again. It’s obviously true, of course, but especially as the Wurlitzer cranks up the patriotism-versus-ominous-foreign-threat themes, it risks making Democrats sound petty and somewhat disloyal (since he is, after all, the only president we have at the moment). Instead, we should communicate that there is way that Republicans do things that makes them inherently dangerous, and a way that Democrats do things that makes us better at keeping the country safe.
emph. mine.
I have a long epu’d post that talks, in part, about The Generals. I think they had a tough set of decisions to make; resigning does, to an extent, mean abandoning your troops to “the next guy” and we know the Administrations’ criteria for selecting, “the next guy.”
BTW - any word parsers notice that Pace never actually said Rumsfeld’s done a good job? As a matter of fact, he flat said, “You can question his judgment …” just not that he “works hard.”
I believe Pace is pretty aware that “his judgment” (along with integrity, capability, morality, etc.) are what was being questioned, not his work hours (work hourse is one for Bush to field).
A Jeffy? Or Pace tiptoeing?
Wow,
Somerby is off the deep end. I read Eriposte’s response and it’s devastating. I have to wonder if Somerby is either senile, or getting payola. He used to be better.
That sounds like a campaign slogan:
“BUSH - Name one thing that he did right”
Mary @ 4:37 pm (#65) - None other than I have always wondered at the choice of the “three strikes” metaphor for so many occasions. Why not “four balls and take a walk?” or “Five strokes on a par 4 hole” or “hit for six” or some such? Always made me wonder how different western civilization would be if most good hitters only needed two strikes to be successful four times out of ten, or if they’d outlawed the curve ball.
fubar, in regards to the graphic:
There are DoD bases in Kuwait(ahmed al jaber), Qatar - Naval compounds in the UAE(Dubai Port) and Manama, Bahrain…
There are AF, Navy bases in the Saudi Eastern Province as well.
Nice post.
BobbyG - 77
FOURTEEN MONTHS of planning, eh?
“Are we tired of being afraid” states that politically motivated fearmongering has succeeded. It is a verbal cringe. When dealing with bullies cringing gets you killed.
Mary says:
April 14th, 2006 at 4:57 pm
BobbyG - 77
FOURTEEN MONTHS of planning, eh?
—
Do the backwards date math from Invasion Day, Mary. Where does that put them?
Rizbiz, I really like that. I wonder about expanding it to “name three things” since even the wingnuts dry up after two. And it would save you from those misguided people who think that Bush really did spend money on AIDS in Africa, too. But I’m not sure - your formulation is awfully powerful.
84 Danny boy - you can see them all here: It’s a framed site and I urge you to checkout all the frames.
I agree with you - I first learnt of them via counterpunch and found them very moving.
FOURTEEN MONTHS of planning, eh?
That gets me. Besides the lying about it, it’s just another example of the amazing incompetence of this bunch. I could have done a better job of planning in about 14 hours.
If I were invited to the meeting, I might have said –”How about this plan, Mr. President? We don’t invade right away, and let the inspectors do their jobs, as we promised.”
My actions are indeed egregious. I ask for forgiveness.
Whoa,that Joe Kline post is GONE!?????WTF??
“Are we tired of being afraid” completely subverts the bed-wetting yellow elephant meme.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/node/28849
Larry Johnson’s thoughts about Rummy:
Stick a fork in him, he’s done.
recall that Franks diverted $700million from the appropriated Afghanistan budget to spend on the ramp-up for the Attack on Iraq…
egregious #85- LOL tooo too funny
imman, we are SHOCKED that you have dipped into the peeps stash before Sunday. At long last, sir, have you no sense of decency?
Yeah, imman, what were you thinking? Not the dipping into the stash part, but revealing it on FDL!!! I hope your cred here hasn’t been ruined for ever. ;) xxxooo VG
rizbiz @ 4:43 pm (#71) - Good thoughts. A couple of years ago, I asked Bush supporters the same question. They didn’t seem so confused then - still thought that Iraq was a good idea and the War on Terror(ism) was going just fine. Short version of my answer then was “Just wait”. Wonder what they think now?
The Captain @ 4:55 pm (#88) I like:
Bush - Tired of being afraid?
better. I’m sure tired.
Cujo359 at #66. Yes, this gang could learn some lessons from studying the history of old “Forty Eight Hours†(Abner Doubleday)and his military exploits.
December 2001/January 2002, hmmmm; we werre just discussing that one over dinner.
DMM- the post is still there, click on blog at the top and you can find it.
The comments on the Klein post were also heavily censored. Sadly, I was not able to express to him what a faustian pansy I thought he was and what he could do with his apologetic reach around.
I don’t see how Rumsfeld can be recplaced. He is complici.. ah heck with it.. i’m there some way to speed up the comments / I really don’t like waiting minutes to get a short comments previewed, when the thread is long. .. blah
I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on the 14 months of planning. They are always supposed to have up to date plans. That differs however from detailed attack orders that they’re working on for Iran. Generals are speaking out because the WH refuses to take the nuclear option off the table. They are truly worried.
Thinking about campaign ideas. Republicans want you to be afraid. Democrats still believe in the Constitution (so old-fashioned).
OK I’m only a benighted bogtrotter what are peeps?
Mark B. in Austin TX -
Invasion Day was March 20th, 2003. That puts the commencement of Tommy Franks’ & Rummie’s “planning” back to January of 2002.
‘eh?
Mary, I agree with your take about attacking Bush now. There was a period of overlap last Oct-Dec where on one hand you had Libby indicted which would justify attack on honesty and character, but this was offset by the Iraq elections and a general sense of a need to get behind the Iraqi effort to vote. Recent weeks have hemorrhaged bad news in Iraq with devolution into civil war while internal scandals have left this Administration paralyzed to respond. They can’t answer even the most basic questions anymore.
You have Feingold’s censure motion, Boxer calling Bush a serial liar at the USC campus on national tv, and Reid calling for Bush to answer questions about what he told invetigators about releasing classified information. No reponse from the White House, no counterpunch. Any overtones of unpatriotism are now drowned by the crescendo of WTF.
You could probably make a list of topics that are best served as soundbites versus those that are more effectively delivered with elaboration. Soundbites are good for making a point and moving on. Elaboration is good for fixing attention. I tend to think matters of cheating, lying, and other crimes beg elaboration. There is a public hunger for it. That hunger can be turned against the Admin by relentlessly calling for elaboration. Some of the Dems are doing it, and the generals just opened even more daylight.
I say attack Bush now, relentlessly and angrily, on matters of accountability and honesty. It is anything but unpatriotic when so many more people’s lives hang in the balance.
Stick a fork in him, he’s done.
I agree, Bush public proclamations of loyalty are often quickly followed with a knife in the back. As soon as Rumsfeld becomes a political liability, he’s gone. Right now, he’s hanging on because it would be admitting that the Iraq policy was wrong to let him go, but they can probably turn that around if they make Rummy the fall guy for all of the screwups.
Heckuva job, Rummy.
mfi– they are a marshmallow confection made to look like a little chick and coated with colored sugar– yellow, pink, blue or purp