Fitz!

When many of those millions are coming in via air, just how does the proposal to build a wall on the southern border even begin to address the issue?

As the grandchild of immigrants from Germany [grandpa was a draft dodger waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back….] I can sympathize with the yearning for opportunity. But this issue isn’t an island…economic policy, education policy, all tie together with immigration policy. Takes an administration willing and able to do the Hard Work of Intelligent Design of policy, methinks!

there is also the News of the Peruvian National Election

Re: immigration…

I just cannot believe all the scared, defensive horseshit about this issue. I think anyone who can get here should be allowed to stay, PERIOD. Have always hated borders, which BTW are not visible from space, duh.

Goddamned scaredy-cat cretins, raising yet another stink about nothing. WE NEED IMMIGRANTS!!! Besides, opening our borders might make it easier for others to reciprocate. How I would love to be able to run away to Canada or South America at a moment’s notice. The way this administration is behaving, pretty soon Americans will be barred from entering other countries. Just wait till we nuke Iran. No more vacations in Europe, by God. But then, no one will be able to afford to drive to the airport, much less actually go anywhere on a plane.

Watched some “real Amerkuns” burn a Mexican flag on CNN just now (does the irony of their shouting “burn, baby burn” even make a dent in what passes for consciousness with these folks?).

Guess it’s finally time to hang the “Never Mind” sign around Liberty’s neck.
Sigh….It all just makes me want to lie down.

Previous thread:

al-Qaeda brand terrorism. Ask for it by name!

~

Interesting Tom Toles cartoon cartoon on this issue

Has that Haliburton subsidiary, KBR, started building the detention facilities it won a contract for, from the DOD. I remember hearing that mentioned here some time ago. sorry, no link.

the state named “Indiana” has no Federally-recognized tribes or reservations. As a Hoosier descended from many generations of Hoosiers, I find it ironical that most “illegal aliens” are actually Indians that nowadays speak Spanish. Most Latinos are predominantly racially Indians or “Native-Americans” — so Bienvenidos Amigos Indios!

Hey Jennie– not to worry Doktor Frist has introduced anti flag desecration legislation. (supported by Hillary). Oh yeah, that is for OUR flag, never mind.

timmer, there’s this

http://robwire.com/?q=node/894

The question the remains unasked is - why is it illegal for certain people to enter the U.S? The job market clearly has the capacity to handle them, for the most part they are far more productive than they drain our resources — what’s the problem?

Well, it’s just plain on xenophobia folks, but even worse - it actually is racist.

Yes, yes, I know people consider that a “knee-jerk” position, but the facts are hte facts. The U.S. State Dept sets quotas for the number of Visa granted each month based on the nation of original for any potential immigrant. South America was granted only 975 Visa for April, while Europe was granted over 10,000.

The 14th Amendment is supposed to grant all persons the equal protection of the laws, regardless of where they come from. In the famouse Bakke case, the Supreme Court found that quota systems in regards to college admissions were Unconstitutional. Further the Civil Rights Act prohibits discrimination on the basis of national origin - yet these quotas persist.

Just look for yourself.

Before we argue that “all these illegals” are breaking the law, or whether or not they should or shouldn’t be granted “amnesty” — maybe we need to confirm that the law were trying to enforce is itself constitutional in the first place.

Vyan

One recurrent charge is that illegals irritatingly suck up all these taxpayer-provided benefits, that they are a net drain on the public till.

Probably impossible to get solid objective economic stats on that, but even if you could you’d certainly have to compare it to the relative drain caused by actual citizens, i.e., what % of the citizenry are “net producers” vs net public resource consumers?

Bet it’d be similar in the aggregate.

in 1851 Indiana devised a new state Constitution and printed up 50,000 copies for mass public distribution. At the time, the State had many of those slow-headed German immigrants, hard-working and clean but they loved their beer too much. Those Krauts were also too pigheaded to learn English so the State also printed up 5000 copies of the new Constitution in German too. Why couldn’t Hans learn English like real Americans?
That was back in 1851…

Behold the perfect wedge issue to split the corporatist and rank and file Republicans apart. The Dems need to hammer the point home that the Right has consciously built an economy dependent on cheap labor. Hell, they don’t even want to pay citizens the paltry minimum wage that hasn’t seen an increase in years. A handy solution is allowing a huge, albeit illegal, workforce to take over. There’s the added advantage of getting to take a pass on any kind of enforcement of worker’s rights, health care, etc.

The “700 Mile Wall Club” needs to understand that they have contributed in a large part to this influx by putting (and keeping) this plutocracy in place by voting Republican.

Totally OT, but the The Fifty-Eighth Annual Conference on World Affairs at CU Boulder starts today, and runs thru friday.

http://www.colorado.edu/cwa/information.html

The University of Colorado’s Conference on World Affairs was founded in 1948, originally as a forum on international affairs. CWA expanded rapidly to become a forum on Everything Conceivable—encompassing music, literature, environmental activism, science, journalism, visual arts, diplomacy, technology, spirituality, the film industry, politics, business, medicine, human rights and so on. …

Schedule

http://www.colorado.edu/cwa/sc.....?year=2006

Monday Schedule

http://www.colorado.edu/cwa/se.....;year=2006

Highlights –

1103 It’s Okay, I Wasn’t Using My Civil Liberties Anyway

9:00-10:30 on Monday April 10, 2006
Old Main Chapel
Panelists:
o Chip Berlet
o Caroline Daniel
o Dave Grusin

o Moderator: Gordon Gamm

=====

1501 Newspapers Are SO Last Century

1:00-2:30 on Monday April 10, 2006
UMC 235
Panelists:
o David Bernknopf
o Simon Hoggart

o Moderator: Paul Voakes

=====

The CWA is like a pre-blog YearlyKos, that’s always worth a visit if you are in Colorado.

=====

Christy, no doubt undocumented workers is a huge mess. My own position has gradually changed over the years. Now it has reached critical mass and I can see a camel coming. Especially interesting in one proposal is the “how wet are you” provision. Nevertheless, something needs to be done. I’ve written several posts on the subjuect over at my blog, in case anyones interested.

here’s the link on KBR:

(maybe “influx” is code for the opposite. a forced diaspora.)

http://news.pacificnews.org/ne.....3f4c9b3a77

Clearly, Rove has focus-grouped this new immigration issue for the 2006 election, since Terra, Gay Marriage, and Mushroom Clouds aren’t getting the base riled up like they used to.

But by attacking families, and threatening to wrest children and parents apart, they may have started a national conversation that will blowback on them.

Describing the ‘family values’ party as homewreckers and heartless orphan makers will do more damage to them than any amount of screaming about Aliens and Lawn Order.

Why are Republicans so concerned about Lawn Order, anyway? Don’t they know you just hire some Mexicans for that?

“It’s a tough call…”

Excuse the hell out of me, but what’s a “tough call?”

The Sensenbrenner Brown Person and Immigrant Criminalization and Deportation Bill is NOT a “tough call” at all. It is a piece of right wing red meat, and that’s all it is, and it should be dismissed out of hand by any American with a brain.

The people marching in the streets are not doing so because there is some high minded lawmaking going on, some third way triangulation to “solve the problem.” They are marching in the streets (and by the way getting a hell of a lot more coverage for it than the anti-war protestors who filled the streets repeatedly and are still dismissed as “nobody” [as in, “Nobody thought Saddam didn’t have WMD”]) because the Sensenbrenner bill is overtly and disgracefully racist and contemptuous of ferriners.

It’s that simple.

It’s not a “tough call” at all.

Antifa # 18:

“Lawn Order.” LOL! Brilliant!

Sorry, got EPU’d, repost.

In the comments thread of the link to Jane’s Hiatt post at HuffPo, I found this comment by: DonB on April 10, 2006 at 02:07am.

It is directed to Jane, so I reproduce it here. Anybody know about this, that WaPo is at the governement tit with “No Child Left Behind?â€

Jane, I think you missed an opportunity here to tie all this to the incestious business relationship between the Washington Post and the Bush regime. Washington Post is receiving millions in govt contracts from the Bush administration under the no child left behind program. It is all about money. It is always about money. Washington Post carries water for Bush and Bush lines the pockets of the Washinton Post compnany with money. Add to that all the regulatory favors they are getting from the Bush regime and you have a clear cut case of quid pro quo.

Che Pasa — the Sensenbrenner bill is crap. Thought I made that clear — but there is a tough call in terms of the balancing of security considerations versus family/personal security considerations. That is the difficult call — and one that needs to be made carefully, and with all of the gray areas considered, not just whitewashed over to inflame whomever’s base is out there to be riled up for the 2006 elections (which is what I think Sensenbrenner is doing, fyi). Is that clear enough?

On immigration.
Is this a progressive or a wingnut site? Please let me know asap. Your piece on immigration sounds wing nut to me. This country would go to hell without these so called “illegals”. We need to get rid of Nafta which dumped cheap agri goods on mexico and forced millions to come here for work. We need to have OPEN, Open borders. People want to stay alive - so they need work. What is your right wing nut problem here?

NPR Update — Bush admits authorizing declassification, but doesn’t mention the super duper pre-declassification for Libby’s leak.

hmmm . . .

=====

American Progress published a study about the cost of deporting all the undocumented folks. The study can be found here (pdf)

http://www.americanprogress.or.....MENTED.PDF

They say themselves that their estimates are probably low, and that it’s really hard to get a handle on the issues. They do not address the ramifications removing all of these workers would have on our economy. Their bottom line is that attempting this removal would be fiscally unrealistic.

First let me say that Lizzy on the last thread linked to a great blog, the sentiments of which i really like:
“If there must be trouble - let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.”

Second, as a lot of us saw on Driftglass, there was a brilliant post about immigration, more specifically, our addiction to cheap black/brown labor from very early on. Named ‘Life Free or Buy.’

When RNC chairmen and others try to point to democrats as “a party without ideas” in counterpoint to Republicans, I want everybody to point at great ideas like taking our resources to deport 11 million people and ask if this what they mean when they cite a “party of ideas.”

Battling the Jesus freaks . . . with science!
Bill Nye, the harmless children’s edu-tainer known as “The Science Guy,” managed to offend a select group of idiot adults in Waco when he suggested that the moon does not emit light.
snip
But nothing got people as riled as when he brought up Genesis 1:16, which reads: “God made two great lights — the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.”

The lesser light, he pointed out, is not a light at all, but only a reflector.

At this point, several people in the audience stormed out in fury. One woman yelled “We believe in God!” and left with three children, thus assuring that people across America would read about the incident and conclude that Waco is as nutty as they’d always suspected.
http://www.sploid.com/news/200.....the_je.php

oops

I sometimes wonder why Free Trade empowers capital and production to move freely across borders — but not labor. Opening the borders to labor certainly would put NAFTA and our glorious Global Economy in a new light.

damn, i can’t do links anymore!

http://driftglass.blogspot.com/

had to go over and cut and paste

I’m on my way downtown to the immigration rally, after a bit of lunch.

I’ve thought a lot about how I might write it up. It is, on some level, complex, as you point out, Christy. But to me, on another level, it’s not complex at all. You hit upon it, Christy: these people are turning out to protect their families, and they are very American, be they citizens or no. More on that later.

Sorry to post so much, but it occured to me that this might be the media giving us our “QUICK, look over THERE!” moment (you know, the one that is usually precipitated by going up one color in the threat rainbow).

When it suits their purposes, MSM can and does ignore/downplay masses of people in all forms. After last weeks revelations, George et al are standing hatless in the path of a huge shitstorm.

I’m not saying that immigration reform is not a complex, critical issue. But it’s one that soooo much easier for bubba (and before you paint me elitist scum, know that I live in the buckle of the bible belt) to wrap his brain around than Iran/Plame/Ethics. Bubba can see this one in black and white, or in this case, brown and white.

An effective feudal regime is founded on an absence of a middle class and a large and vulnerable under class. The wilful neglect of border security and the ensuing flood of people desperate to improve their standard of living achieve these critical aspects effectively.
Not to be overly paranoid (hah, that even makes me laugh), but beware of potentially unfolding chaos and logistical security concerns resulting from political action that will necessitate the construction and staffing of large detention centers. This is will be a potential ‘canary in the coal mine’ indicator of a covertly unfolding but defacto police state.
It is at least a potent wedge issue (do the Republicans deal with any other type of issue?) at worst; it could lead to some very bad things.
Then again, I’m probably just being paranoid.

~

not everything is about national security - and i think that (just as with the nsa wiretapping) the words “national security” are being used here to make it hard for us to think clearly.

the best analysis i’ve seen on the topic of immigration is from david sirota. if we’re really worried about immigration - then we ought to take a look at our trade policies.

the problem is that these policies have been supported by (most but not all) policial leaders in BOTH parties.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/.....I4KL61.DTL

http://www.workingforchange.co.....3F75FE488D

http://www.davidsirota.com/200.....ously.html

Oh, and dag — I’m sure it comes as no surprise to you or any other regular reader that I, as a former prosecutor, would look at the security concerns as something that ought to be considered. Esepcially in light of how much the rest of the world hate our guts with GWB in the power chair. If you don’t think that needs to be part of the equation in terms of what we talk about with a borders question, then you aren’t using your brain. You can’t discuss all sides of the issues without resorting to vilifying someone who thinks differently than you do? Then that’s your freaking problem. Having had to deal first hand with the INS issues that come up when you pick up an illegal who gets popped for a crime and then seeing how the INS folks want nothing to do with the process — you can see how I might have some insights on security issues with our borders — and that doesn’t even touch on how easy it would be for potential terrorist cell members to slip across — more likely the Canadian border than that southern one. You want to talk facts instead of invective — fine. You want to throw out “wingnut” snottiness at me because we disagree about policy — then screw you.

Hey, last nights Late-Nite thread is overrun with creepy weirdos spewing “Islam=Evil” garbage. Pachacutec is holding the fort, but maybe in need of support.

Froomkin’s having an on-line chat right now.

Cheney’s Pitch: I am a very strong believer in not booing at the ballpark, but I will be there tomorrow and am afraid I will not be able to control myself from booing at Cheney.

Anyway, I know this isn’t really your beat, but do you think we should expect the security lines to be as outrageous as they were last year with Bush there?

Dan Froomkin: Wow, even the non-booers plan to boo? It could get ugly.

I have no idea about the security lines — I sure hope they learned from last year.

I had a chance to catch up on the immigration bill controversy the last few days. I read the transcripts of the talking heads show. Regardless of one’s feeling about the seriousness of the immigration problem, the House bill is garbage. And I cannot believe that Democratic consultants would be afraid of it. To the extent that they are, they are fools.
The House bill makes not one lick of sense. And its proponents cannot string two coherent sentences together to defend it. So you hear them saying that action needs to be taken to expel the undocumenteds, and they deliver a diatribe on importance of sending messages and really doing something about it. But when challenged on the money cost, and economic, social and personal dislocation, they say that they don’t really intend to actually remove them. So then the issue of the draconian criminalization of undocumenteds, and of citizens giving them humanitarian aid comes up, they say they don’t really mean that either. They say that if it had no been for Democrats blocking amendments, the criminal sanctions would have bee reduced to misdemeanors from felonies. So they are really not so serious about it. But then they immediately go on to rail about how serious the problem is and something needs to be done.
The height of grotesque hilarity came in the Face the Nation. Rep Becerra had explained how what the Senate had proposed was not an amnesty. Then Tancredo said he wasn’t going to let Becerra “get away†with that. And Tancredo went on to say that what Becerra said was misleading because Becerra was using the ordinary “dictionary or textbook definition of amnesty†rather than the special House GOP definition of the word that made what the Senate wanted to do very perfidious immoral and nasty indeed.
I haven’t found a discussion of how effective this fence would be. To effective at all, I think it have to be a mammoth thing similar to the Israeli wall. How much that would cost to build and maintain over 700 miles, some of which is wilderness, I cannot imagine. If anyone has a link or reference, please let me know.
You don’t have to be a wonk to understand the incoherence immdiately. You just need to speak English and be able to think straight.
And a majority of the US in polls is against the House GOP bill (TPM Café quotes a poll saying 75% believe undocumenteds should have avenue to citizenship). Even Bush is against the House GOP bill!
I cannot cannot absolutely cannot believe any Democrat, no matter how centrist would be afraid of this issue. Any who are suffer from a serious mental disorder which is causing delusional thoughts of some kind, and they need treatment.

Jane & Redd: There is an anti-terror website, www.werenotafraid.com
that has a tremendous number of great pics from all over the world. In each one, people hold signs saying We’re not Afraid. It is a riot. Check it out.

I’m deeply troubled by the prospect of my neighbors being turned into felons by intemperate immigration reform.

I live in Northern California in a town that is at least 70% hispanic. Many of these folks are surely illegal. Many of them own homes, businesses, and are in every way the kind of neighbors we all want to have.

Similarly, the businessmen and women who employ many of these folks, make real contributions to the good of the country, our community and their employers.

Forget the fact that I’ll suddenly be paying much more for lettuce, cabbage, carrots, artichokes, apples, wine, etc, etc, etc. Worse, much worse, I’ll be forced to witness my neighbors hunted down like dogs, arrested, and–some of them–deported. Will I watch as doors are kicked down? Children terrified? Lives destroyed?

And what about my own life? I’m a brown skinned person. How many times will I be stopped and my identity papers inspected?

What about you? To avoid charges of racism, police tasked to uphold the new laws will have to stop and question white people as often as brown people. Are you ready for carrying identification papers and being forced to stop to identify yourself at the will of a police force?

Mabye this is what draconian immigration reform is all about–another tool for the Bushies and crazy conservatives to use to control the population.

I employ between 6 and 8 people depending on the season. A couple of them are, um, undocumented. One is an degreed accountant who worked for four firms in Mexico City before moving here to work as a laborer to escape the city and to make more money. The other is one of the hardest working and smartest young man I’ve ever employed. I pay them the same I pay my other documented and citizen employees–enough to make sure they stay for years. I don’t offer health insurance–I’d like to and intend to, but damned it’s expensive. I’ve got both undocumented guys on a program to become fluent in English. I am willing to do whatever I can to make them legal and get them on the path to citizenship. My aim is to get the accountant working for himself as a bilingual tax and business accountant serving the Spanish-speaking community. The other young man will make a solid small business manager or owner. They are kind, smart, hard-working individuals and they are exactly who we want to live and work in our community.
—-
Another issue coming down the pipe is that the protest organizers in SoCal have called for a general strike on May 1. Of course I want to support this, but damn, I’ve got product to deliver. I’m working with my employees to find a solution. As the man said, “it’s hard work!”

First, the word is undocumented, not illegal.

Second, if you have no borders, you have no country.

The game is rigged because the Republican paymasters are narcotically hooked to having a frightened and powerless workforce. No workers comp because they’ll just limp a little. Stuff like that. Try to see the big picture and realize giving legal status, debating a realistic immigration number, and enforced whithering fines for exploiters and violators would be a boon for middle class America.

BobbyG 13–there are plenty of studies (which i don’t have links to on hand) which show that immigrants are nearly always net producers. The reason is easily understood: because they are nearly always schooled for 12 or more years on another nations’ tax base. The studies I recall are of legal immigrants. But the same dynamic (possibly at lower magnitude) will be there for illegals.

A comment about the House bill. It makes you a felon for going out of status pretty much no matter what. The late unlamented INS (now BCIS) is notoriously terrible at keeping track of its own paperwork. (And yes, in the 21st century, it’s still entirely paper driven.) As I read the bill, if the INS loses your paperwork, or checks the wrong box, or simply screws up–if you go out of status because of that, you’re a felon. Every person I know–myself included–who has ever dealt with INS has watched important forms go AWOL or worse. Go out of status because of such a screwup, and you’d be liable for hard time.

(BTW I always thought they changed the name to BCIS precisely as a marketing move–INS was a damaged brand. Like most marketing moves, the name change had no basis in substance.)

I think this is no small part of the energy behind the protests. Legal immigrants understand that the near 100% likelihood of INS incompetence in their cases, coupled with the bill, will eventually make all immigrants felons.

(And we all know this Administration would never, ever underfund an agency to such a degree that it deemed “paperwork” to be a “burden” it couldn’t meet. Except of course in the trivial instance of tracking terrorists through FISA applications…)

Off Topic, but on calls to Representatives and AT&T on spying.

Well I called two State Representatives this morning, one mine and the only other Democratic one listed in the phone book. I also called one of my Senators offices, the Democratic one and my long distance carrier AT&T who is also my ISP provider.

The poor girl at AT&T said she wasn’t aware of any wiretaps of American Citizens inside of America. I informed her about the news article telling how the NSA has a office setup inside AT&T in LA illegally spying on Americans. I said I wanted them to stop spying on me without a court order and that I was disgusted by their complicity in violating my Constitutional rights under the Fourth Amendant and the rights of all Americans under the Constitution against unlawful wiretaps without a court order by this insane madman running our country. I told her that this is America not Nazi Germany and it was illegal and AT&T should stop complying with this illegal activity ordered by the Dictator running our country. I also said that I hope there would be a class action suit brought against AT&T and that if AT&T didn’t stop there illegal actions that the american people would shut them down by not buying or supporting there products and what they were doing was Unamerican.

Then I called my State Representative who was not in the office and left a voice mail. I told her that I had voted for her in the last election, but since she switched parties to the party of Death, Corruption, Fascism and now Treason she could no longer expect my support. I further told her to remove my name from all her mailing lists and that I would work against her and do what I could to see she is not relected.

I then called the only other State Democratic Representative listed in my phone book. His secretary answerd the phone and ask for my zip code after I had introduced myself. She said that they weren’t my representative and I informed her that I had already called mine and left a voice mail. However, since he was the only other Democrat shown for my state in the phone book I wanted to state my concerns over the Dictator Bush wanting to start World War lll by dropping Nukes on Iran.

She told me that the representative was in the Legislature and she would email him my concerns and get back too me. She ask for my phone number which I gave her. I told her I was concernd that the Democratic Party was not doing enough to stop this madman from destroying our country and that they needed to standup and fight even if they lose. I brought up the NSA spying, the leaking of our covert agent and loss of her company Brewster and Jennings Associates which was tracking WMD’s and Nuclear Weapons and the plans to Nuke Iran which could lead to a Nuclear War which could destroy our country. Even though I wasn’t in his district she was very polite and said that she would pass this along to him. This is the kind of representation America needs. I look forward too hearing back him and will pass it along as soon as I recieve it.

I then called my Senators Office. He also was not in but his secretary was. It took me several minutes to get through as the line was busy. I gave her my name and zip code and wanted to know what the Senator was going to do to stop Bush from starting World War lll by Nuking Iran which would lead to the destruction of America. She said the Senator didn’t have a responce at this time. I informed her that I was extremely upset that the Democratic Party was not doing anything to remove this madman from power.

I brought up their not backing Senator Feingolds Censure Resolution, the spying of American Citizens without a court order in violation of the Constitution against illegal wiretaps, Senator Liebermans refusal to support who ever wins the Primary in his State [mentioning that I would not support the DSCC and had already donated to Lamont because of Senator Liebermans constant support of Bush], Senator Liebermans efforts to shutdown anything the Senators tried to do by refusing to acknowledge the wrongs committed by Bush and Abu Gonzales’s telling the investaging commitee that Bush has the power to wiretap anyone he wants too under his inherant War Time Powers as a Unity Executive.

I also brought up the leaking an outing of a NOC operative, the shuting down of Brewster Jennings and Associates which was protecting Americans by tracking WMD’s and Nuclear Weapons because of his and the OVP’s leaks. I stressed that I did not want hearings offering immunity for testemony and wanted to see them tried for Treason, and not walk like Oliver North and others did for Iran Contra.

I stated that if they did not stand up and fight this madman and his administration that Abu was right and the Legislative Branch was useless and not really needed as Abu clearly informed them that Bush was not Above the Law, but is the Law.

She told me she would pass it on to the Senator. She was also very polite and I felt better after telling her my concerns about the direction our country is heading in. All in all it was a very produtive morning. I hope the Democratic Party wakes up before it is too late or we are all screwed.

PS: On an afterthought everyone who has AT&T as their phone service provider or ISP should call and complain about them collaberating with the the governments illegal spying on them without a warrant.

Will be offline for awhile if anyone responds to this post.

I am in complete awe of the marches going on simultaneously all around the country. We could all learn something about their power to organize.

But there is one point I just have to make, one which I have not seen much discussion of. Other than North and South Korea, I don’t think there is another place on the earth where a border demarcates such a wide disparity in wealth (and human rights???) as there is between the US and Mexico (just go a few feet between San Diego and Tijuana and this gap becomes very clear). For instance, NAFTA has been an unmitigated disastor for the average Mexican…

people are in the streets protesting

karl has to be getting nervous

this sin’t a good sign for bushco

Delurking to do a little push polling:

Massive turnout at immigration rallies: Are you more sympathetic to their cause?

So far 24% yes, 76% no.

cnmne @ 30 -

yep. if we were REALLY pro-free trade our borders would be open to people as well as capital and products.

now, THAT would really force us to rethink our foreign policy!

The immigration issue is very complex and I certainly don’t have the answers. I wish someone did.

I was EPU’d (just can’t read fast enough!), but in case you didn’t see this:
Christy, did you see the FDL mention in a story about Murray Waas over at MyDD?: “He’s relentless, and he’s focused on the big picture. And eRiposte and Firedoglake are right there chewing through the reporting with him, a kind of adjunct institutional memory.â€
http://www.mydd.com/

Froomkin is on line taking questions. Sorry for the drive-by, if this already posted.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01863.html

Looks like he isn’t going to answer my question whether editorials are fact-checked. Snerk.

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
— from ‘The New Colossus’ by Emma Lazarus.

(Also inscribed at the foot at the Statue of Liberty…which was a gift from France.)

Christy, the security issues with immigration are not a “tough call” - that is a red-herring. Illegal immigration and terrorism are not connected. Any member of a terrorist cell is not going to enter the country illegally, they will follow each and every one of our laws to minimize their exposure prior to completing their mission. If you want to argue that there is a drug and “wage slave” issue connected to immigrantion, that would be true - but not “security”.

Vyan

orangejumpsuit #53,

Why does Emma Lazarus hate freedom?

Oilfield: right. Note that GOP House bill provided no enforcement $, and used Democratic amendments that did allocate $ as excuse to gut enforcement of both labor standards and employee sanctions. So employee sancitons in the House bill mean nothing, since they won’t enforce.

Hoosierville: on polls, go to TPM Cafe and read up an real, nationally representative polls. What you mention is an unreliable internet poll. Anyway, some fools burned a US flag today at one demonstration, which could affect results.

How about these simple measures:

1. Don’t bother too much with “tougher criminal penalties on employers”–you’d have to prove intent, which is hard–and you’re giving both sides (employers and illegals) the incentive to conspire together.
2. Extend all labor laws to cover illegals as well. Min. wage, benefits, worker safety, unionization, everything! This immediately grants some additional protection to US workers, and enables cooperation between US workers and illegals. Very important for both sides–the most useful things from the perspective of scofflaw employers of illegals is to keep this sort of cooperation from happening.
3. Grant all workers, including illegals, the right to sue for back wages and compensation in case they have proof of discriminatory and illegal employment. Allow liberal suspension of deportation proceedings for the duration of good-faith legal proceedings against abusive employers.
4. Allow RICO-like triple damages against abusive employers.
5. Grant even illegal FICA taxpayers some (perhaps limited) FICA benefits. Say, perhaps, just the rights to their own and their employers’ contributions when they reach retirement age. This gives them a strong incentive to keep track of this stuff, and another means of driving a wedge between employers and illegals.

These sort of measures will

(a) break the nexus between illegals and their employers
(b) provide strong basis for cooperation between US workers and illegals
(c) relieve the government of the burden of “hunting down” illegals, and proving deliberate wrong-doing on the part of employers
(d) treat illegals as human beings who have legitimate aspirations. This is the weakest part of US immigration law–very few immigrants and their sponsors have much respect for immigration laws, since they are so widely regarded as unjust and exploitative.

Of course, German immigration laws are worse (as Zakaria recently pointed out), but that’s not the point. Even US immigration laws are unjust, since there is hypocracy at the heart of it. The gorilla in the room is the addiction employers have to cheap illegal labor, and racist remnants of old policies (for instance, the fact that Liechtenstein has the same quota for immigration as India and China).

Tommy, 57

orangejumpsuit #53,

“Why does Emma Lazarus hate freedom?”

Huh? Sorry, I’m not very good at riddles.

Excuse me, 10,000 in the streets of Salt Lake City yesterday - really, wtf were they thinking ?!?!

I know, I know, it was just all about energizing ‘the base’, but the base is all they have left

was trying to find an updated number for y’all, but at last count, LA County has over 200,000 newly registered voters and it’s not like they’re gonna go away - Come that 2nd week end in Nov., Catholic priests will be gently admonishing parishoners to get out the vote that Tuesday - their duty - as a means of helping others

this is political suicide for a party that has made well documented efforts to court the Latino vote the last two election cycles

btw, general legal question - If you’ve been here ‘illegally’ for 15 years at what point does a statute of limitations kick in ?

who to vote for? El Partido Republicano de Tomaso Tancredo y Jaime Sensenbrenner o el Partido Democrata de Edwardo Kennedy?

SusanG has a beautiful post up at dailykos called, “Leveraging Xenophobia and Other Bush Administration Policies”.

We are being leveraged on every level, dear readers, by the most massive marketing machine in the history of humankind, the U.S. government under George W. Bush. And the future of our experiment in democracy depends on each of us uniting and recognizing our shared aspirations instead of our exaggerated minor differences.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....141932/724

Timewarp #49

Latest Republican Wedgie

If we can’t get off our asses enmasse to protest the abuses foisted on the world by Dubya, then maybe we need some new pioneers with the grit to cross deserts, rivers, fight banditos on both sides of the river just to make a life. They have a hell of a path to citizenship and they’re showing us the way. Feel free to take notes.

Blogwhoring here.

Hoooo boy

Richmond, Va.: Did you read “A Good Leak”? Your thoughts…

Dan Froomkin: Lots and lots of questions about yesterday’s lead editorial in The Post: A Good Leak.

(Much excitement in the blogosphere and even the trade press.)

I’ll just put it this way: When readers suggest that articles in The Washington Post are influenced by the newspaper’s editorial positions, the response is often that the Post newsroom and its editorial pages operate in two different worlds. That has never been more true.

Bang!

Vyan, quick definition of “security” (OxfordAmerican Dictionary):
>the safety of a country or organization against espionage or theft or other danger.

I don’t see the word “terrorist” mentioned in there, do you? Safety and security mean more than just terrorism. Stop trying to play ‘gotcha’ with Christy’s prosecutor’s brain power, and go take an early tea break.

Froomkin’s going on vacation, I hope it’s short. But he’s lively today.

Durham, N.C.: I don’t mean to get you in trouble with the Ombudsman or anything, but…

Any commments on the instantly-infamous “A Good Leak” editorial?

Dan Froomkin: Oh, and I forgot to mention that critics of that editorial have hi-jacked this comments thread on post.blog — ostensibly about washingtonpost.com’s really cool, highly functional site search. Try it! (Search, I mean.)

Dan calling for a Maryland Moment? Nah…

ccmask - I’ve been an aquaintance of Bill Nye’s for nearly twenty years now. And instead of allowing his head to swell with fame, he has simply become more passionate about educating folks about science and debunking myths taken as historical fact by wingnuts.

He’s definitely one of the good ones…

kittensomper(!?) That will attract a certain kind of reader, I guess. Are you going for regular guys who hate cats?

Well, I like that post.

History is another reason Democrats should be very aggressive. Everytime GOP has tried this wedgie recently it has caused them serious problems. Opened up huge divisions in GOP that are bigger than in Democrats. In order to feed their base, they have to resort to rhetoric and extreme policy measures that alienate at larger number of normal people, including some of the more normal parts of the base.

Why are they trying again? They’re running on fumes issue-wise? That’s my guess.

OT - Joe Wilson is going to be on Countdown tonight.

All of the legislation I have read about seems cruel or nuts or both.

However, one good thing would probably happen if we closed the border with Mexico. A huge revolution.

First, I think it is a huge mistake to build an immigration policy on a platform of criminalizing anyone who is currently here on an undocumented basis. I can’t think of a better way to drive these people deeper underground than to instantly make them felons.

Second, for security reasons, we do have an interest in knowing who these people are, but I have not come up with a method that also will not drive them underground.

Third, if there are criminal penalties to be handed out, they should go to those who employ undocumented workers. It should not ever be a crime to work and work hard, but if the hiring of undocumented workers is to stop, it has to hit the employers in the pocketbook.

Fourth, if coming to America to work at a low wage job, with no benefits, is more attractive than staying in your country of origin, what does that say about those countries? I do not understand why we are not making more of an effort to economically lift these other countries so that they have economies that are attractive to their own citizens.

Fifth, other countries around the world are teaching their children to speak, read and write in English from a fairly young age. If the third world countries are to have any hope of retaining their citizens and participating in a global economy, they need to improve their education system generally, and specifically, be giving their citizens the tools they need to compete in a global economy. Easier said than done, I know, but what helps these other countries ultimately benefits the US, doesn’t it?

Finally, I understand security issues, but building walls is just a boondoggle, another opportunity for some cozy-with-the-government-contractor to make billions, with little or no effect on cross-border penetration.

Heads up! MSNBC just said Joe Wilson will be on Countdown tonight with Olbermann. 8pm E/5pm P.

showphone,

Christy specifically mentioned in comment #39

and that doesn’t even touch on how easy it would be for potential terrorist cell members to slip across — more likely the Canadian border than that southern one.

I happen to disagree, based on my reading of of 9-11 Report (which points out that each and every member of Mohammad Atta’s group entered legally) and Michael Scheurer’s writings concerning the workings of al Qaeda. Tim McVeigh was a U.S. Citizen, as was the Atlanta Olympics bomber. The London bombers were all native Brits (I believe, haven’t checked lately). There was no illegal immigration needed.

Entering illegally is against their mission profile, we don’t need to worry about terrorism in relation to illegal immigration. The right-wing has conflated to two issues in order to sow fear and so far it has worked, we certainly shouldn’t be buying into it.

Now, I can understand disagreeing with my view - but I would ask for at least a couple examples of illegals who’ve commited terrorist acts. I can’t think of any,

Vyan

Eight million visits per site meter!!!

OT:
“I wanted people to see what some of those statements were based on. I wanted people to see the truth. I thought it made sense for people to see the truth. That’s why I declassified the document,” GWB

Ok - so why was it declassified and leaked in such a surreptitious manner?

Vyan — I can’t give you a personal example of a terrorist who has crossed the border illegally. But I could give you multiple examples of serial DUIs, a rapist and a couple of child molesters — all of whom had records in their native countries and who came here to escape arrest there — and then re-offended. In my mind, that raises a serious ass questions about security on a number of levels — including the potential for it to be abused. (The 2000 bombing attempt that was foiled at the border crossing comes to mind, but I know that was a simple border crossing issue and not an illegal attempt.) I can’t just brush aside what my own experience has taught me on this — that the way things are now does not offer the best possible protection for the long-term.

Vyan,

One does come to mind. The guy trying to get in from Canada that was trying to get to L.A.. Caught him on a ferry . I do not remember much else. Y2K,I believe. Anybody?

The immigration issue is nothing more than one big “Look over there” issue for the repukes, because it’s just about the ONLY one that the Dems don’t own outright. Not that it doesn’t deserve a solution, but the less time we spend debating it the better–it’s just diverting attention from Bush’s crimes. Especially with the Congressional elections coming up. Wouldn’t surprise me if the repukes deliberately stalled on it just so they can make THIS the centerpiece of the whole campaign! Beware! Beware!

When I saw the usual suspect–some dough faced middle aged white male prattling on about “immigrants” and then he said: “We don’t even know what diseases ‘these people’ have.” I knew that whatever he thinks, I think the opposite.

Frankly John Q. Whitesheets–I would be more ‘afeared’ of what you have growing in that petri-dish of a half empty brain socket.

-GSD

Oh yeah, Karl Rove is indeed an enemy of humanity.

Amit Joshi #59: intriguing ideas that economists (those who are not violently anti-labor) should like.

Anne #72: Omigod, I hadn’t thought of that. If House GOP bill passes, BushCo will build the wall. That means it would probably messed up in a way such that it would cost hundreds of billions too much, and increase illegal entry. And would cost trillions to fix or tear down. Cheney would probably want nuclear booby-traps because “it’s our due.” Thanks for the horrific insight.

Oh, yes, It was in WA state.

wesgpc#69

Thanks for the kind words. About my blog title…
I put an explanation right under it. Now I’m looking for that graphic I’ve seen, the one with the kitty using the submachine gun. Then there is the matter of importing it into my header where it will work. I’m still Forrest Gumping my way through all this stuff.

I want to clarify a mix up in Vyan’s post from earlier today. Vyan - you are mixing up the green cards available thru the visa lottery (”DV”) with the number of green cards available/given out to immigrants thru other channels (family and work sponsorship). The lottery is basically that - a lottery to make a (relatively) small number of green cards available for those countries with low levels of immigration. While I absolutely agree that the Sensennbrenner bill is garbage, that immigration needs to be addressed comprehensively and as part of a broader civil rights/economic/humanitarian/social justice strategy by progressives, and that immigration laws often are racially/ethnically/geographically biased, I felt the need to explain this incorrect understanding of the law.

Vyan - a little over 5 years ago, Ahmed Rassam tried to enter the country at the Canadian Border in Blaine, Washington. He was not coming to America to obtain a green card so he could work here. He was crossing the border with a car trunk filled with explosives, to fulfill the plan of heading down to Los Angeles and blowing up LAX.

This is an extreme example, but still…

As I already stated, national “security” means more than guarding against terrorism.

Elizabeth De La Vega says it best on Tom Paine Dispatch, regarding Bush’s selective declassification of intelligence:

“Is a President, on the eve of his reelection campaign, legally entitled to ward off political embarrassment and conceal past failures in the exercise of his office by unilaterally and informally declassifying selected — as well as false and misleading — portions of a classified National Intelligence Estimate that he has previously refused to declassify, in order to cause such information to be secretly disclosed under false pretenses in the name of a “former Hill staffer” to a single reporter, intending that reporter to publish such false and misleading information in a prominent national newspaper?”

The dems and the media (who are asking the wrong question) would do well to read her article.

“You want to throw out “wingnut†snottiness at me because we disagree about policy — then screw you. ” Hooray for you Christy. There are good reasons to be concerned abut immigration issues. You have stated some of them. You don’t have to be a wingnut to be concerned. And of course we know that you are not one.

Building a wall around the country would be the biggest pork boondoggle in history, which may be part of the reason they might try.

Bet it would never get finished either.

BTW, I agree with Anne’s sentiments in #72. The legislation in play will only drive illegals underground further. And NAFTA is certainly a factor in difficulties faced by Mexican nationals looking for jobs. Bush never understood that exporting democracy and economic development begins in our own backyard - MEXICO.

Stacy B. #86
I agree. I think this angle is why GW Bush will lose a few more points this week. I think the average citizen intuitive understands this point, and also understand that he/she is the intended mark. It is not some other sinister person anymore, it is him or her. They will realize that Bush is not “with them” or “on their side” in any meaningful sense. They will sense that either Bush is acting in bad fatih, or that Bush is just asking way way too much personal power and trust on one of the most grave and very serious matters of state (ie, war and peace,