
Take a good long look at Brian Doyle, Deputy Press Secretary for the Department of Homeland Security. Alleged pedophile.
He could be your neighbor, your babysitter, your youth minister, your grocery check-out guy, your best friend's husband. He could be anyone you know. Not exactly a big, flashing sign that says "alleged pedophile" around this guy's neck, is there?
The fact that a Bush Administration Department of Homeland Security Official was arrested yesterday for attempting to solicit sex from a 14-year-old girl over the internet is a shock for some people. But it shouldn't be.
The fact that this arrest also happened on the day that Justin Berry was testifying about his abuse at the hands of internet sexual predators before Congress makes this all the more horrid, in my mind -- the juxtaposition between Brian Doyle and Justin Berry is just painful when you read the news articles side by side. Taylor has a fantastic article about this -- it's a tough read, but a necessary one to understand the mindset behind this sort of behavior.
Warning: I'm going into a bit of detail below, and I didn't want it to come as a shock for anyone. Know what you face -- and face it head on.
I've prosecuted a number of pedophiles in my time, as well as participating in ongoing probation supervision for already-convicted sexual predators, and there is one thing about which I am absolutely certain: you can never cure a pedophile. You can work with them, you can do aggressive therapy to help them control urges, you can do any number of things which require them to limit contact with children and porn and what-have-you, but there is no cure.
Most pedophiles that I've had to deal with in my legal career were molested themselves as children. A lot of them grew up in families where they were routinely molested by a parent or step-parent so that they grow up thinking this sort of behavior is normal. Not every person who is sexually molested becomes a pedophile -- and I wish I knew where that switch gets flipped for some people and not others.
But ultimately it is all about power and/or the thrill of the hunt, depending on the pedophile. Controlling your victim becomes everything. And almost every pedophile that I've ever had the misfortune of supervising or prosecuting had a long, long history of being a sexual predator. Most pedophiles don't just molest one child (as if that weren't bad enough). I attended a prosecutor's seminar on sexual predators when I was working, and was told that the average pedophile has hundreds (yes, hundreds) of victims over a lifetime.
Brian Doyle was sloppy -- which means on some level he wanted to get caught. He allegedly informed the undercover cop posing as a 14 year old that he worked for the DHS. He gave her his cell phone number -- a phone issued by the Department of Homeland Security. He was chatting, online, with the undercover officer from his home in Maryland when officers arrived at his home to arrest him.
Here's what's in store for Mr. Doyle: his computer will have been seized by those police officers. They will comb through the hard drive of that computer for every, single chat in which he ever participated with a child. If there are more, they will track down every one of those children that they can to determine whether or not they have had sexual relations with him. They will comb through the hard drive for any child pornography that may exist thereon -- and he faces federal criminal charges if there is any (and there likely is, considering that's a fairly usual find in this type of case). There is a criminal count for each, individual picture. There are definitely Florida state charges -- since this was a Florida state investigation/sting that caught Mr. Doyle.
The WaPo reports:
Brian J. Doyle, 55, was arrested at his Silver Spring home at 7:45 p.m. and charged with seven counts of using a computer to seduce a child and 16 counts of transmitting harmful materials to a minor, according to a sheriff's office statement.Agents with the department's Inspector General's Office, the U.S. Secret Service, the Montgomery County police and the Polk County Sheriff's Office served a search warrant and seized his home computer and other materials, the statement said.
Doyle was online at the time awaiting what he thought was a nude image of a girl who had lymphoma, Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd said in an interview with Fox News' "On the Record With Greta Van Susteren." "We wanted to make sure he was using that computer and talking to detectives at the time of the arrest," Judd said.
In his initial communication last month, Doyle told an undercover computer-crimes detective who he was and that he worked for the Department of Homeland Security, later disclosing numbers for his office phone and government-issued cellphone and using those lines, the sheriff's office said....
According to the sheriff's office, Doyle initiated a sexually explicit conversation with the detective on March 12 in response to an Internet profile of a 14-year-old girl.
Doyle allegedly sent pornographic movie clips, non-pornographic photos of himself and instant messages from his AOL account, the police statement said. The sheriff's office alleged that Doyle "on many occasions" instructed the undercover detective to perform a sexual act while thinking of him and described explicit acts he wished to perform.
I know you are sitting there at your computer thinking "ewwww," and you are right to do so, but you have to face the fact that this sort of thing goes on -- every day, all over this country -- before you understand the need to be vigilent in protecting your own children from these sorts of predators. These are seasoned cops, though, who knew to catch him online while they did the arrest -- so they had a contemporaneous record and could verify immediately that his prints were on the keyboard from the chatting, giving him no loophole argument for getting around the charges.
If there is child pornography on his computer, the authorities will try to trace back every single photograph to its origins to determine who took them, who was involved in the production, the distribution, the planning -- every single aspect of this will be investigated as fully as it can be, to the extent that you can trace this sort of thing back.
And let me tell you, be grateful if you have never had to view child pornography in either photo or video form. I still have nightmares sometimes about cases that I worked as a prosecutor, worrying about the children that we could never identify. It is tough, gritty, gut-wrenching work. And thank god for the police officers and FBI agents who do it.
But you can't just depend on police officers to take care of all of this. One of the biggest cases our local police were ever able to crack open came as a result of a tip from a food delivery service fellow who thought it was weird that an old guy, whol ived all by himself, bought multiple boxes of popsicles all the time -- and always had a slew of kids in his impoverished neighborhood hanging out at his house. Guess who was using all those popsicles to lure and groom local neighborhood kids...for years.
We do things backwards in this nation -- and how we deal with pedophiles is one of them. A sexual predator has the potential to crush the lives of hundreds of victims over a lifetime. A child's life is changed in the instant that he or she is molested -- and the lives of every person around them for the rest of their lives are changed as well. Studies have consistently shown that one in every four children in this country will be sexually molested -- one in four -- either by a stranger or, more commonly, by a family member or family friend.
The next time your kids have friends over to your house, just think about that one in four number for a minute and realize its implications.
We have to be smarter and do better with this sort of crime -- because it ripples outward on so many, horrible levels over the lifetime of the survivor. If your child begins to act furtive, secretive, hide their online activity from you, spend an inordinate amount of time IM-ing and trying to hide it, no longer spending time with other kids, disappearing from the house at odd hours, shying away from your hugs or any touch, gets very jumpy -- anything along those unusual lines, you should try to keep a close eye on why the changes occur. (Sure, teenagers especially, can be a bit jumpy behaviorally, but there you are.) Check your caller ID -- if there are repeat calls from a particular number -- out of state or locally -- that you don't recognize, ask about it.
One of the biggest questions in my mind on this was how this was happening repeatedly with a Department of Homeland Security official who was using his work cell phone to perpetrate this? The WaPo had this as well:
Another Homeland Security official -- Frank Figueroa, special agent in charge of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Tampa -- faces trial this week on charges of exposing himself to a teenage girl last year at a mall. Figueroa, who has been suspended, pleaded not guilty.
What in the hell is going on at the Department of Homeland Security? These are the people who are supposed to be protecting us, right -- instead, it looks like we have to protect our children from them. Background check, anyone?
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fitz
Christy: I can’t begin this thread in the usual way…it just doesn’t feel right.
But, your message is so important and so serious for all the parents or guardians out there. Thank you.
Background check, indeed. Homeland Sec is a mess, and is an emblem of this Administration.
Also, OT, I need to find the picture of coathanger with blood that was on FDL about 3 weeks ago.
Thanks.
Censure, then castrate. Repeat.
Is there any way to tie this back into the administration’s insistence on the power to “hire and fire” at DHS without the usual labor protections?
Rahm Emanuel brings up both of these slimeballs and DHS and the lack of accountability in the WH on the floor just now. “For once Mr. Speaker, I am speechless.”
I’m solidly anti-death penalty, but for some reason with pedophiles I not so sure.
Christy — Thank you so incredibly much for this posting. Yes, hideous stuff, but this information needs to be right “out there” where everybody can see it — and not just parents, but aunts, uncles, friends, neighbors, and yes, delivery-people, contractors: i.e., anyone and everyone. You have performed a marvelous public service and the only thing I would add to it is, well, the obvious: this guy was after a girl, not a boy. Pedophilia has nothing to do with sexual orientation and everything to do with a need to dominate and have one’s sexual urges met by… a child.
And thank you, Christy, for your work and that of other prosecutors who work to bring to justice child predators, football team rapists, and politicians who use their power of legislation to perpetrate their own forms of violence on individuals.
if this story is not a ripe metaphore for the horrid treatment of children under the bush cabal, i do not know what would be . . .
damn: everyday another disgusting gop criminal; what will today bring?
I can never understand why anyone would let their kids have a computer in their room. If I should ever have kids, there will be a single computer in the house in a space accessible to all. Same goes for TV and a phone.
I got bigtime molested at 13 by a respectable asshole just like this
But…But…the Religious Right says it’s gay men who are the pedophiles…How could they be wrong about that???
- “I’d say that our government needs an enema, but those bastards would probably enjoy it.”
(typo it article title is my edit)
State senators son, 2nd teen admit brooming
By Stephanie Innes
Arizona Daily Star
Go read the above article. Here’s what happened in a nutshell: a Republican State Senator’s son, who is 18 years old, can use a broomstick to fuck in the ass a total of 18 jr. high school boys and not be charged with sexual assult. In fact he is charged with a single misdemeanor count of aggravated-assault. Thank God the GOP is sticking up for Family Values. Apparently when an adult Repbulican wants to FUCK A CHILD IN THE ASS WHITH A STICK… THAT’S NOT A SEXUAL ASSULT !!!!
Leahy says there is ethnic and religious McCarthyism occurring now in the Senate. He is defending Ken Salazar who apparently got slammed. Leahy says they tried to do the same with him when they attacked him for being anti Catholic and anti Italian. I am curious what was said about Salazar, we could use it as an example of rethug racism…
I specialized in family violence in my clinical training. I disagree with Christy’s prosecutorial perspective, formed by her experience.
By the time a prosecutor deals with someone, they are likely to be the worst part of the sample of those whose fantasies lead them toward kid or adolescent porn.
Not all of these characters are the same. I don’t have time to get into this, and I’m not at all defending predation or attempts to seduce minors.
But we tend to get very enraged when any of this stuff comes up, and it clouds our ability to make distinctions. Treatment works for some of these people, especially if they are young, have the ability to empathize with victims, are motivated and can learn to build adult ties of intimacy with an age related peer.
Arguments about these kinds of crimes take on the same dynamics as drug offense arguments from the right. Not all drug offenses are the same, and not all drug offenders are the same. Building more jails without resources for diagnosis, rehabilitation and treatment is bad policy that creates more hardened offenders and recidivists than it cures.
Thank you Christy for putting this horrible crime into a proper perspective.
“We do things backwards in this nation — and how we deal with pedophiles is one of them.”
“Most pedophiles that I’ve had to deal with in my legal career were molested themselves as children. A lot of them grew up in families where they were routinely molested by a parent or step-parent so that they grow up thinking this sort of behavior is normal. Not every person who is sexually molested becomes a pedophile —”
As a person who was routinely sexually abused while a child, this is a topic that cuts deep on a personal level. Until our collective attitude toward our children changes radically, our culture will remain a breeding ground for pedophilia. In my mind, it is not only a matter of law enforcement (which can’t get involved until after the crime has been committed and is akin to plugging up holes in a leaky dike one at a time), but a matter of showing our children as a nation that they are precious gifts to cherish and nurture.
OT.
It was an outrage about Sam Alito being questioned for his sketchy connections back at Princeton. But McMinney–she’s just a racist.
REP. DELAY: ‘Cynthia McKinney is a racist. She has a long history of racism. Everything is racism with her. This is incredible arrogance, and — that sometimes hits these members of congress, but especially Cynthia McKinney’
-GSD
Thank you Christie for the insight and terror of this issue…
Barbara at Mahablog has an interesting take on Evil and this particular story that also throw a bit of light on this issue.
http://www.mahablog.com/2006/0.....ying-evil/
http://www.mahablog.com/2006/04/05/schadenfraude/
Sharkbabe, I am sorry for you.;(
Enlightening article. When you say
“there is one thing about which I am absolutely certain: you can never cure a pedophile and were molested themselves as children”, can a child who has been molested by one of these monsters be helped? In other words, can the circle be broken if a child receives help while they are still children or are they lost and in danger of becoming pedophiles themselves? Are there any stats on this?
Sharkbabe: that’s horrible. Hope you got the support you needed somewhere along the way.
Can I just ask, how BIG a problem is this? I dont mean pedophilia, these guys need to be locked away and have the key thrown away. I mean how many are we talking? is this big?
Treatment works for some of these people, especially if they are young, have the ability to empathize with victims…
A pedophile that has the ability to empathize with it’s vitim???
non sequitur
Sharkbabe, have you talked to anyone since this happened?
goodness Christy, could you have laid it out any straighter ? this is a common (and well justified) neurosis of most parents and yet most of us still practice a form of denial often by skimming or avoiding info like your column - and I’ve encountered othewise great parents who live in the ‘that always happens to other families’ bubble.
Our 5 kids constantly whined about the tight leash (they don’t know the half of it) and why they couldn’t do some of the things their friends did- but we did it knowing that even with vigilance, one of these monsters could still find a way
frankly, I’m not sure background checks would’ve prevented either of these 2 DHS pukes from being hired - maybe - but I’m of the camp that says we still don’t know enough about pedophillia to pick these monsters off - and even if they’d somehow fit an established ‘profile’, then we get in to a very murky area of law enforcement. No, I am not going all futile on ya, it’s just my way of saying a whole lot more resources need to be committed to this problem
gforcewinds:
I have to head out toameeting and will be out most of the day.
Short answer: there are stats. I left clinical work a long time ago now so I am not up to date. Bottome line: there is no 1:1 correlation between being a childhood victim and being an adult offender. Only a minority of childhood victims become offenders. And as I recall, only about half of adult offenders were victimized as children, as far as we can tell.
My stats in mind are old, but that’s what I recall frmo my doctoral work.
cupholder:
Define “pedophile,” please. That would help us talk the same language.
and regarding all the people talking about whether or not background checks would have found anything, well, we wont know. but this guy was one of the top DHS people. HE DAMN WELL BETTER HAVE HAD A BACKGROUND CHECK.
Christy: Is there such a thing as an “entrapment” defense where the perp suspect claims he/she was being set up? In this case, Doyle was actually communicating with a policeman, not an actual child. What is the legal definition of entrapment if there is one, and how does it work from both the prosecution side and the defense side?
OT but - TM has just posted Clarice’s latest smear job on Fitzgerald on Justoneminute. Not sure why Maguire takes her seriously, but a search of Clarice’s comments on justoneminute is …. illuminating. Who knew Iraq was responsible for the first world trade center bombings?
Baloonjuice #6 — I don’t know exactly how they are doing the background checks for Homeland Security, but I have done sit-down interviews for friends who have applied for CIA jobs and for State Department jobs when they were doing background info. They were fairly thorough in terms of what they asked and what they looked into — although you are right that it would be tough to turn up information on someone who had never been arrested. Normally, though, there is suspician information that you can glean from a pull on the FBI’s priors information network, even if there is no conviction. (Say there was a suspician that was investigated, but not charged or convicted, etc.) I guess I would just feel better if I knew what inital screening they were using on this — but two officials being nailed within a fairly short period of time (one for an online predator profile, one for a sexual exposure) seems like it ought to at least raise questions on the employment screening and qualifications/background information that DHS is using. It’s a question that someone in Congress with oversight capacity ought to be asking — even if there is no firm answer to it.
Thank you for the this post. My daughters always read firedoglake over my shoulder, so you have given me another teaching opportunity–so many are needed to help navigate this dangerous world.
I’m a social worker in foster care system–and agree with Christy. This needs to be taken seriously always, because you never know where they are in their molesting “career”, how many children they have groomed and devestated. When it comes to a sexually harming a child, there are no small offenses.
Following up on Pachcutec’s comment, part of what is wrong with our law enforcement only approach is that we don’t care enough to notice the early signs and symptoms sexual abuse which could lead to early intervention and prevent a hurting young person from growing up and becoming a pedophile. Pedophiles who were abused as children cannot empathize with their victims because no one ever noticed or empathized with their trauma. In a sense, they are simply re-enacting their own trauma out on another child. They were not “seen” as children, thus they don’t “see” the humanity of any child. If people can get past reactive judgement, they could begin to see that a person does not become a pedophile “overnight.” That said, when it does occur, I do think that effective law enforcement is absolutely necessary simply to prevent a pedophile from hurting other children.
yeah I did a lot of talkin - but it took a long time - thanks guys
Thank you, Christy, for a powerful post. As the mother of a molest victim, I can certainly attest to the impact it has on the life of the child and family. My daughter was molested from age 6 until 14 by a family member during visits to her father’s house. She disclosed at age 14 and has been in a residential treatment facility since age 15 in an effort to keep her from self-mutilating and suicidal ideology. She is now 17 and still doing self-harm. She blames herself.
I commend all those who have waded into that cesspool to investigate and prosecute these crimes. Thank you, Christy, from the bottom of my heart for all the work you have done, and continue to do, to make this world a safer place for all.
When I was working as a reporter, I interviewed the first man in our state to be civilly committed as a sexual predator (I also interviewed the mother of one of his victims.) I was expecting Hannibal Lecter. That’s not what I found. He cried throughout the four-hour interview, described the ongoing sexual abuse he suffered as a kid. He left home, joined the military, and worked as a door-gunner on a helicopter in Vietnam. Came back and began his career as a loser and a predator–but never during that time did anyone ask, how’re you doing? what’s up? he just got jailed and jailed and jailed and never “treated”–whatever that might mean. I was horrified by his actions but saddened by his very broken life. I think the overall point is that this society cares little about kids–then and now.
Ugh says: April 5th, 2006 at 7:18 am
“I can never understand why anyone would let their kids have a computer in their room. If I should ever have kids, there will be a single computer in the house in a space accessible to all. Same goes for TV and a phone.”
Amen! That is exactly what I did with my kids and I felt much more comfortable because of it. Any family member could walk past the computer at any time and glance at what was on the screen, which also meant that my kids could do the same when I was using the computer. (Alternatively, one could require that the computer be unable to access a network — which is what I did for a number of years.)
I agree that background checks are unlikely to have made a difference … unless there was a prior arrest, of course.
Can’t find a web page for the Office of Public Affairs at Homeland Security, in order to do more due diligence on Brian Doyle.
On this organizational page the office is mentioned, but no web link:
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?theme=9
On this page is Doyle’s boss:
http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/d.....ntent=4365
And these fine DHS specimens have security clearances, correct?
I know 2 girls that were assaulted by someone that they knew. He was not prosecuted. One has struggled to make her life work, the other’s life is ruined. Actually ruined.
As a Christian I cannot wish that someone would end up in hell, but it’s close.
For more information about sexual violence you may (or may not) find the contact info at the bottom of my recent Kos diary useful.
Here.
Bill Selznick #15 - just stunning
As I said, I have to head out in fifteen minutes, but a couple of points:
Most sex abuse is done not be strangers or online predators, but by family members or friends.
Fanstasies of adolsecents don’t have the saem clinical significance as fantasies about prepubescent kids.
Those who take action to put live out their fantasies are of a different kind than those who do not.
Those like this DHS guy who are advanced in chronological maturity who tale active steps to groom a victim are harder to treat with success, all other things being equal.
Tears and lametnations are not necessarily evidence of the ability or intention to reform by an offender. The real bad ones can be very manipulative and pathological. That said, early intervention in the chain that could lead to offense can prevent many disordered people from becoming offenders.
Victims should get more support, and families need earlier crisis identification and crisis prevention.
Pach: I can see where young offenders - molested themselves - can be rehabilitated by helping them identify with their victims, but the recidivism rate is ungodly for pedophiles. Would you be willing to trust a child to one of these ‘rehabilitated’ monsters?
As the mother of a 13yo daughter who was molested by a deacon of our church at age 6, my personal opinion is that death by lethal injection isn’t enough. I’d like child molesters to be drawn and quartered on the courthouse lawn.
I’d like defense attorneys who attack the then-7yo testifying (a year later) against her attacker to spend a month dealing with a child who is emotionally traumatized by sexual abuse.
My daughter deveoloped anorexia and bulimia. By the time of the trial, she weighed 41 lbs, and had to be begged to eat, and then watched for one hour after meals, so she wouldn’t go to the bathroom and make herself vomit.
She had nightmares and woke up screaming five or six times a night - every night - for months, convinced her molester had broken in the house and was killing her brothers (the threat he used against her).
I do get enraged when I hear about another child being a victim of a sexual predator, and if we can’t kill them, we certainly ought to protect other children by locking them away forever.
orangejumpsuit #31: It’s not entrapment if the perp initiates the sexual conversation. Officers who do this sort of undercover work are VERY careful in how they do it. They pose, for all intents and purposes, as a 14 year old child. Meaning they get online in a teen chat room and talk about what’s the latest with Britney and why Paris Hilton’s latst outfit is icky, etc., etc., and when a perp contacts them via IM, they don’t lead the conversation or steer it in any way. It would be just as if the perp were talking to a real 14 year old. They keep meticulous records — every single conversation will have been saved, printed off and catalogued, and you can bet that the person who first brought up anything flirty was the perp, the person who suggested anything sexual was the perp, etc. It would be entrapment if the officer went into the chatroom and said “Ooh, I’m 14 and I’m hot for a 50 year old hunk of man. Who wants me?” But when that 50 year old man is the person who brings up the sexual stuff — and this takes several conversations, because they normally have a long, disgusting routine of befriending and grooming the kid before they try to get them to send sex photos or get some sexual gratification out of it or have a phone conversation or what have you. (Yeah, I do know WAY more about this than I ever wanted to know in this lifetime…)
In every case I’ve ever worked or been associated with, the officers are VERY careful that any and all initiation and suggestion comes directly from the perp. No entrapment at all — he could be doing this with any child you know.
Well, I have to dissent here. Let’s start with some facts.
(1) The guy is not a pedophile. The APA’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines pedophilia as having sexual urges towards children, defined as 13 or younger.
(2) Most experts would consider this a case of ephebophilia, not pedophilia.
(3) Though the rate of recidivism is high for child molesters is high, it is lower than the rate of recidivism for persons convicted of sexual offenses against adults, such as rape.
(4) Justin Berry was “abused” only under the broadest possible definition of the term. A more accurate description is that he produced and sold child pornography (of himself) for money to people he never met in person.
(5) The distorted description of both these cases — the Berry cases and the Doyle case — are instances of a sort of occupational shibboleth on the part of Ms. Smith. Prosecutors widely advocate for definitions of pedophilia and sexual abuse which are generally not supported by any scientific consensus.
Careful, you call the guy “Pedophile”, identifying him with a photo.
Just remember Richard Jewell…flashback:
NEW YORK (CNN) — Richard Jewell, the security guard who was the focus of the investigation into the Olympic bombing before he was cleared by the government, reached a settlement of more than $500,000 from NBC, The Wall Street Journal reported Friday.
…snip…
The case centered on comments anchorman Tom Brokaw made on the air after Jewell was named a possible suspect in the July 27 blast during a concert at Atlanta’s Centennial Olympic Park.
END
When I first started out as a lawyer, I did some felony appointment work, mostly to get my feet wet in front of the Common Pleas judges. In Ohio, there are thousands of sex offenders in prison who were sentenced before the law concerning Sexual Predator registration was passed. They must now be classified. Its a fairly simple procedure, and not much room for a young lawyer to muck it up, so I seemed to pull a bunch of them.
What stuck with me is how normal they all were (as normal as anyone in a prison jumpsuit can seem). Every defendant lies to their lawyer, and most of the time its pretty transparent. But not with these guys. They can lie like only a person afflicted with a psychosis can.
Bottom line is I am extremely conflicted about what to do with these people. On the one hand, they “pay their debt,” they get out, they register, and then they are subjected to unbelievable harassment. On the other hand, I’m convinced Christy is right, there is no cure. I’m a parent, and I don’t want them next door. Do you institutionalize them, for life? Maybe. I just don’t know.
Christy brings up a good point.By the time a pedophile is caught,they usually have a fairly large number of victims in their wake.
I wish someone would start asking in a highly visible way why it seems like our country has so many people(mostly male)who are sexual preditors.What is going on here? On one level I can understand how someone goes from victim to abuser,but what about those who weren’t abused who go on to do this?And since not all people who suffer abuse go on to become abusers,the abuse itself can’t be the only reason,can it?
All I know for sure is that my 12 yr old son will never have the computer in his room go online.He can use my computer(which is in my little kitchen office,I designed this kitchen with that very thing in mind)where I can see him,and he’s not allowed to use chat software.Maybe when he’s old enough to pay for his own ISP,we’ll revisit that issue,but for now,no freaking way.
Can I just ask, how BIG a problem is this?
Well, 1 in 4 children has been molested. I’d say that was pretty big. If each pedophile molested 100 children, that would mean maybe 2-3 percent of the population (not sure I’m doing the math right, however; I think that assumes the population of children and adults is about equal).
As for entrapment, yeah, it happens. A few years ago the FBI (I think it was them) mailed out child pornography to suspected pedophiles. That was clearly wrong. But in online chat rooms, all you have to do is identify yourself as a child and wait. It isn’t necessary to offer any inducements that would be considered entrapment.
I was abused by a family member. That said, that family member also abused other children who were not family members. For that reason, I think the easiest way to ‘catch’ it and prevent it within the context of the family, but that cannot happen unless the culture as a whole is willing to take note of and get involved in all sorts of family dysfunction and abuse. The family member who abused me was not abused sexually as a child (we don’t think, but since he was never willing to own up to what he did, there may be things about his life we don’t know). But he was abused, physically and emotionally (horrific So Baptist family…).
Pac, I understand where you are coming from, but as a criminal defense attorney (federal court only), I gotta agree with Redd on this one. These guys (and 99.99999% are men)are verrrry difficult to cure; partly cuz they won’t admit to themselves or anyone what they have done, or blame the victim, so making headway for a “cure” is tough. It’s almost like they still see themselves as the victim of their molestation, while trying to exert control over someone, something. One attorney in my office handles most of these cases, under my supervision, and it is tough on everyone—there’s generally no defense, no mitigation, and so empathy/sympathy from anyone within the system (should there be? well perhaps, given the premise that most predators were abused). These are the clients that cause a defense attorney to remind themselves how much they believe in the Constitution and the role defense attorneys were expected to play. Elsewise we wouldn’t be anywhere near them.
This guy will be looking at big federal time–huge federal time, probably never get out of jail federal time, and I don’t know how the feds can not pick it up.
Redd–you might want to put “alleged” up before pedophile–I know it diminishes the impact, but it will keep the WV state bar off your ass.
Pach — agree with you on the early treatment need. I did have to deal with the most advanced cases — but I also had to deal, on occasion, with juveniles who were caught as offenders. Even at that under 18 age, it was sometimes an enormous struggle in terms of treatment and prevention of recidivism, depending on the circumstances. I think we can both agree that the way things are done within the current system is less than adequate (and that’s putting it very mildly).
well this may be the last time I ever post here, but:
I’ve defended quite a few of these cases. Somehow I got one case - in Indianapolis all of these guys are kept separated from the gen pop - and I guess word got around. Suddenly I had a bunch of them.
Of all the ones I did, I only had one where I became convinced that my guy was in fact an evil fucker. I’m pretty sure I would have won at trial, but I withdrew anyway. I don’t consider that to necessarily be a point in my favor - I’ve always had mixed feelings about bailing on that one.
Most of these guys are hard-wired differently. Their true, at-the-core sexual attraction is, for some reason, aimed at children. It’s not an act, for the most part it’s not evil, it’s where nature, for some reason, has pointed them. They are fully aware of what society thinks of them, and they loathe themselves for it - still - sexual attraction is powerful, and a fact of life. Almost all of the cases I saw were fondling cases.
I’m a heterosexual male - some others here are homosexual males and females. We’re the lucky ones. Our sexual inclinations are to one degree or another acceptable. Can you imagine what life would be like if your natural attraction was toward children? I don’t understand it - don’t even pretend to - but I know what I saw - and for the most part it was human beings being human. I think back often to a case where I had a kid who was 18, and had fondled a boy of about 8 yrs. The pain, disgust, and as I said, self-loathing present in that kid was hard to see - I hope that today he is all right - I hope that he is still alive and hasn’t taken his own life.
I eventually found that I was not cut out to be a crim attorney. If one cannot leave the cases in the office and not take them home day after day, it’ll hurt you. I eventually lost the ability to eat or sleep, and had a fairly massive breakdown. I lost almost all of my memory, but have most of it back now. I can remember cases by issues involved, no faces really, all outcomes, but no names. Occasionally I ask what appears to be a stupid legal question, because I still have some holes.
Yes of course there are some evil motherfuckers out there. There are also some otherwise decent people who are just wired wrong.
If you ever have the misfortune of having a child who is a victim, especially of a fondling case, please tread carefully. Most of these children, I think, are somewhat aware that something wasn’t quite right about what happened, but parents and social workers, well-meaning good people, can make it worse. Go easy - don’t let your child see it as the end of the world - retain some love for the one who was acting as God made him. He hates himself enough already.
I’m not gonna hang around.
I just searched Christy’s post and the comments for the word “accused.” No hits.
Since at FDL, we’re ALL about the Constitution, it wouldn’t detract from the validity or power of anything written here to make a point of inserting that word.
Christy-
Thank you for this post. This latest revelation simply adds another dimension of horror to the Bush administration.
I started off my day reading first, Taylor’s post, and then yours. My God, I’m just stunned.
Now let’s see if the wurlitzer cranks up to defend this guy, saying he was entrapped. The same people who attacked “Taliban Jill” and the “ho” at Duke won’t actually defend Doyle, will they? Will they?
And that picture of him, I get all icky inside looking at it.
I wish our society loved its children more. We talk a good game but we don’t walk it very well. There is an underlying hostility to them that I can’t figure out. From education to health care to daily life, kids are considered a nuisance and a bother, liars and attention seekers. When I tried to get adult attention about my abuse, I was ignored or, worse, punished for lying and called crazy. I thought maybe they were right. I often wonder how many kids right now are going through the same thing and what I would tell them if we could speak.
That’s another issue, I think, with civil commitment of sexual predators after they’ve served their sentence–they’re committed until they are “cured” “recovered” but if a cure isn’t possible. I observed an “expert” testify at a trial re: continuing civil commitment of a sexual predator and the one thing I came away with–he talked like an expert and carried himself like an expert but this purported science was not scientific, not reliable. There was this whole scaffolding of expertise for this commitment, but it was–all of it–shaky. I think this is a painfully difficult issue–one not helped by unscientific science….
mommybrain, you said what I was trying to say.
Thanks, Lou — this kind of case pisses me off, could you tell? But you are abolutely right that at this point it’s alleged and I ought to have been accurate in my first pass on it.
I have to head out. There are good points flating round this thread from multiple perspectives. I’ve worked all sides of this issue from the treatment and treatment evaluation perspective, including the evaluation of programs designed to treat court mandated offenders. I’ve worked with more victims than offenders, and my moral goal is to prevent abuse and victimization.
Best to all! By the time I’m back later, this thread will have dried out, I expect.
Take care, all.
While getting my Masters in Criminal Justice, I focused on sex crimes, pedophiles, serial rapists, and serial killers. It was difficult to say the least, but I wanted to focus on those that cause the most harm to society. I never did get a career in law enforcement, mostly because when I was young and interested, law enforcement agencies were not, and when they did become interested (FBI), my wife already had a good career going, and I was already earning more than a beginning FBI agent makes.
But I think the thing to emphasize even more than the fact that the perpetrator could be anyone, that there tends to be signs that there is something ‘not quite right’ about those who later get discovered to be sexual predators.
And, as has already been stated, but MUST be emphasized, they can be controlled, but are NEVER cured.
jayt - I can always count on something insightful from you. Are you leaving us due to this post?
goddamit Suzanne, so sorry your child is suffering, hope she continues to get the help she needs and you as a family keep finding strength to deal with this
I’m sure I sound naive to the law enforecement types, but often I think if only, if only most folks knew how widespread this problem is and it’s probably more wideespread than the stats reflect b/c I think a lot of male survivors will never find a way to talk about it.
I am a survivor of molestation and child rape and there’s what, 3 others of the 20 talking on this board right now ? what’s that tell ya ?
and cupholder #8 - am right with ya on that and it’s probably more the mom than the survivor talking there
Resource: http://www.rainn.org/ This is: Rape Abuse and Incest National Network. They have a list of places to contact by state.
“Careful, you call the guy “Pedophileâ€, identifying him with a photo.
Just remember Richard Jewell…flashback”
The gravity of such crimes scream out for justice. The danger is that sex crimes inflame so many passions that they often render any discussion useless.
There is also a great danger, knowing the MO of this administration, that such crimes can be used as a pretext for more federal intrusion. The old saw, “if you have nothing to hide” can be inserted here.
Perhaps if one were to replace the fear of terrorists with the fear of internet pedophiles the same tactics can be used to combat both. Sneak and peek, search and seizure, unlimited detention, guilt by association, waterboarding, rendition, fear, accusations, fear,complicity, fear, aiding and abetting, fear.
It is my distinct fear that all of the tactics used by the current regime will be turned inward one of these days. What better pretext. Who will come to the defense of anyone accused of a horrible sex crime?
So the dilemma presents itself. There is indeed a huge criminal problem……but will it be dealt with in an even more criminal way?
-GSD
The following are a few sites to take a look at if the issues of sexual violence, harassment and abuse are meaningful to you.
RAINN, the Rape Incest and Abuse National Network
CDC Report on Sexual Violence
National Center on Domestic and Sexual Violence, funded in part by big tobacco but they are doing very good work anyway, including in the military.
Good FAQ on sexual assault including national hotline number 1-800-656-HOPE.
Finally, if you have friends or family who are dealing with these issues, get them help and get back-up for yourself as needed.
Good FAQ on sexual assault including national hotline number 1-800-656-HOPE.
Finally, if you have friends or family who are dealing with these issues, get them help and get back-up for yourself as needed.
It’s so important for readers to understand where real threats to children come from. Thanks for your cautions and attention to this issue. I think society has a lot of confusion about pedophilia in general–conflating crimes against boys with homosexuality is just one of them. This lets the catholic church hide its culpability for turning a blind eye while thousands of children were assaulted by priests by simply attacking gays or gay adoption and appear to be taking a strong stand. The truth is that most molests are heterosexual, girls more likely to be victims than boys. And most kids aren’t molested by what has been called “fixated” offenders, or the long track record pedophiles you’re talking about here. More common and with a shorter lifelist are “regressed” offenders who usually have had relationships with adult women as well. Having treated child victims of both kinds of perpetrators, I can see some differences in the crime. The fixated perp is more likely to start out as a “fun/intriguing” friend, and more likely to feel to the child like something they’re keeping secret from their parents in order to achieve some gain (pokemon cards,drugs, booze, or as in this case a sexy older adult interest), and more likely to get caught once that secrecy is broken. When the child is ready to disclose this kind of molest, the world responds fast, with police, interviews and arrests. As americans we tend to fear the fixated perp alot, and warn our children about them. However, the regressed offender tends to be much more secretive and have a much more insidious effect on the child. They are usually IN the family or close to it, and confuse the child’s sense of belonging by introducing sex and shame to the home. The child can’t tell the parent because they feel the parent is responsible, or inherently culpable for allowing it to happen. And when they occasionally do tell someone *outside* the family system, like a teacher, therapist or coach, the authorities rarely finds anything that winds up worth prosecuting.
Don’t get me wrong, I have no love for fixated pedophiles, but we can *catch* them, we can prosecute them, and we put a fence around them. It is much harder to build a case against a father who molested his daughter before she could talk, than it is to get a guy whose been attracting 13 year old boys to his house for months.
I still think the best way for a parent to protect their children is not to harm them, and not to date or marry someone who will harm them. If both these things happen, statistics tell us the child is very likely to stay safe.
What is the sexual offender recidivism rate? Do child molesters reoffend more often than rapists? Do incest offenders have the highest recidivism rate of all sexual offenders? Do all child molesters eventually reoffend? Can you reliably predict who is likely to reoffend?
These issues are more than just academic. If social policy and legislation in these matters is to be effective, then surely such facts must be considered.
-x-
I was all over this last night:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200.....ment-55714
I say One Strike and You’re Out. Life. Spare me all the psychobabble about getting at root causes. Zero tolerance. Release a shitload of non-violent drug offenders to make room. Pretty simple.
I think that it is human nature to want to believe that we can help anyone, can change anyone. I’ve spent most of my life thinking about this issue. I was only six years old when the molestation began and wasn’t able to understand or escape until I was about nine. The perp was my grade school principal, president of the school board and the organist at his church. He was considered to be an absolute pillar of the community and had received awards for his work with children. He was also extremely empathetic with children. In fact it was that very empathy that allowed him to manipulate us. I think that he truly believed that he loved children and that his actions were a natural expression of that love.
I don’t know what the “switch” is either, but I am so thankful that despite my experience, I’ve have never had any sexual attraction toward children. Perhaps because of that, I believe that pedophilia is a sexual orientation. Read any of the claims made by fundies who say that they can “cure” homosexuality. Graduates of those programs, if they are honest, admit to feeling sexual attraction for members of the same sex although they may have some control over acting on those impulses. I believe that it is the same for pedophiles. They may have some control over their impulses, but for how long? I see from the comments here that some of you believe that therapy works and that pedophiles can be cured. I just don’t believe it.
Childhood sexual abuse is not something that you ever truly get over. I had the great good fortune to get into therapy with a man who literally wrote the book on the sexual abuse of males and have been able to regain a degree of intimacy that I thought was lost to me forever. Despite that, it took forty years before I was ready to deal with my experience and my hatred of my molester is as red hot as when I was a child. Although I think that any attempt to understand and treat offenders is a noble cause, I for one would not put my child in the position of testing any of those theories. I’ll save my compassion and my concern for the kids who will forever live with the memories of the monsters.
From the flip side — in my years as a small-town public defender, I represented the “baby rapers.” Christy’s right — most were victims. In fact, I can’t recall right now that I ever represented one who wasn’t molested, usually horribly, as a child.
I found that I had to reach that place in myself where I had compassion for the perp in order to defend. And believe me, there was often much to defend — not uncommon for additional false allegations to be added to the true crimes, by other family members jealous of the attention received by siblings and cousins. Or — this happened twice — the victim’s mother convinced the child to accuse “Uncle Johnny” or “Cousin Billy” (both of whom had abused others) instead of stepdad. Yeah. Protect that marriage, honey. Gag me.
I never was able to resolve what SHOULD be done with these people. Christy’s right — they won’t get better. But there’s a place in me that has such deep sorrow for the very damaged little child inside the monster, even when I was revolted by the adult.
Christy,#48
Thanks for the explanation. I can see why it is absolutely necessary for the police to document every exchange. I remember the “Abscam” scandal where several Congressmen were charged, and the defense was entrapment. I forget most of the details of the case though.
Serious question here.. when you say that pedophiles can’t be cured, is there any relation to the age of the target?
My understanding of this issue is that there is no hope for those who
are attracted to pre-pubescent children. Is that true for those who pursue tennegers as well?
I believe this to be the worst crime of all. Awhile back when the whole holier than thou pharmacy issue of not providing the morning after pill because of their faith really pissed me off. I’m a real estate lender and I had to help a scumbag who had been convicted of this type of crime and had been forced to move to a different community. How come I couldn’t refuse to help him? Why didn’t my horror of this scumbag allow me to refuse under the same grounds? Because I wanted to keep my job!!!
The loan had to been done in his wife’s name only so he could avoid paying on the judgment against him in the tune of a quarter million dollars. As those assholes were whining about a stupid pill, I had to deal with a convicted pedophile! Thank you for letting me rant.
jayt– do come back– I am sorry for your pain.
Also for the horrors experienced by others who have posted– I am sorry for you. So, so sad.
jayt–please return. I value your thoughts and words and feelings. But whether or not you come back here –may the force (the big whatever) be with you.
jayt # 57
was is emerging to me from this thread is this is a subject requiring a hell of a lot more dialogue on the part of society - including what you have to say - don’t you dare leave us.
jayt, I agree. Please come back. This is an incredibly difficult issue. There was an excellent discussion of this issue on the NPR program “Justice Talking” (I think it was that program). Actually, recidivists are not as common as is claimed, according to one of the speakers on that program. Because I haven’t worked on this problem and haven’t been affected by it, perhaps my compassion for the perpetrators and their problems is misplaced, but I have to believe that it’s an ugly, ugly problem, but you can’t dismiss people as being totally worthless. I’ll see if I can find a link to the program I mentioned.
As a mother of 3, this is all very frightening.
Heard on the radio recently that the newest trend is abuse of kids under the age of 5. Talk about nauseating.
This is the one and only instance where I side with the Bush Admin., and think they should be allowed to snoop into internet accounts of those involved in child porn. These criminals need to be stopped.
why should you leave jayt?
these are all amazing comments.
what saddened me, when my kids were little, is that before we got to the birds and the bees and physical expression of love, we did the good touch, bad touch thing…
http://www.justicetalking.org/.....progID=542
I believe this is a link to information about the program I heard, including an MP3 link.
jayt - You are valued here. Stay.
This child porn/predator issue is a tough one. I agree with jayt that most of them are hard wired. To that extent they are what most of us call uncurabley sick. There are some witch hunts and over reaction by well meaning people as well. The net is cast wide. I’m just happy not to be a parent of a young child in these times. I’m not smart enough to have any answers. I would be scared to be a parent.
Christy, thank you for helping to clarify the entrapment issue.
btw, there’s a post over at Pam’s House Blend about men flying in to Atlanta (yeah, not Saigon, Bangok, or Mexico City) to have sex with children. I shake at recalling the article, but again, we all need to know this stuff.
When you say 1 in 4 kids will be sexually molested, what do you mean by “sexually molested”? Does getting flashed count? Or do you mean actual, physical, sexual contact? If 1 in 4 are actually physically molested that is a very scarry statistic. Personally, I was flashed by some guy when I was about 7. He asked me to kiss his dick and I said no thanks and walked away. When I told them, it was way more traumatic for my parents and the cops than for me. I just thought it was wierd for someone to do that.