Many fine thinkers trying to sort their way through the maze created by Mr. Run-Amok tonight, all riffing off the erudite Kevin Drum who speculates as to why either Woodward and/or his source finally called Patrick Fitzgerald after his press conference on October 28, 2005. And their theories may well prove correct.
But I think Arianna is much closer to the mark on this one -- the chain of events starts well before the Libby indictment was handed down. Trouble is, between Bob and Len Downie they are spinning about six different stories in time. The most recent of these is an interview given by Bob to Time Magazine as he takes yet another page out of the Judy Miller playbook and tells them stuff he withholds from his own paper.
Well nobody at the WaPo short of Richard Cohen would content themselves with such a horrible pack of inconsistencies anyway, so maybe it's just as well. But it would be nice for all of us if Bobby could remember the stories he's told in the past, 'cos it's damn hard to keep up with them. But let's have a go.
Thursday night, October 27: Bob Appears on Larry King
As I've mentioned before, many denizens of Traitorgate world -- including Steve Clemons, myself, the Washington bureau at the NYT, Michael Isikoff and apparently Len Downie himself -- had spent the day before the Libby indictment trying to track down the rumor that Bob is working on a "blockbuster" story that some had heard involves Fred Fleitz.
Isikoff asks Bob about the rumor on Larry King. To which Bob replies:
WOODWARD: I wish I did have a bombshell. I don't even have a firecracker. I'm sorry. In fact, I mean this tells you something about the atmosphere here. I got a call from somebody in the CIA saying he got a call from the best 'New York Times' reporter on this saying exactly that I supposedly had a bombshell. . . .Finally, Len Downie, who is the editor of the 'Washington Post' called me and said, 'I hear you have a bombshell. Would you let me in on it.'...And I said I'm sorry to disappoint you but I don't."
Everybody goes home, Bob's thrown a wet blanket on the whole thing, the rumor is not true. Only it is true. Bob is sitting on a blockbuster. And the lie about Len Downie is quite unnecessarily elaborate.
Tuesday night, November 15: First WaPo article appears
Includes the comment that "Downie said in an interview yesterday that Woodward told him about the contact to alert him to a possible story."
Wednesday, November 16: Len Downie speaks to E&P
It was just a few days before the indictment of former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby was announced on Oct. 28 that Downie learned from Woodward that the Watergate legend had his own connection to the Valerie Plame case.
Okay, so it was "a few days before" the indictment that Downie first learned about Bob's "connection." So was that Larry King moment about Downie calling him and Bob saying there was no "blockbuster" just bullshit?
Today: Woodward in Time Magazine
In the final weeks before the grand jury indicted vice presidential aide I. Lewis ("Scooter") Libby on Oct. 28 for perjury and obstruction of justice, Woodward says he was asked by Downie to help report on the status of the probe. In the course of his reporting, Woodward says, "I learned something more" about the disclosure of Plame's identity, which prompted him to admit to Downie for the first time that he had been told of Plame’s CIA job by a senior administration official in mid June 2003.
So when exactly did Bob tell Downie about his "source?" I'm inclined to believe Downie's assertion, that it came a couple of days prior to Oct. 28. Downie probably had asked him to do some reporting on Plame in the weeks prior, and why wouldn't he. I'm surprised he didn't ask a whole lot sooner.
The story about Downie calling him and asking him if he was sitting on a bombshell also sounds true. The Post has been held out on before. Ask their own staff:
"Woodward has periodically faced criticism for holding back scoops for his Simon & Schuster-published books."
Now, I have no idea how the cat got let out of the bag, but it did. There seem to be two threads that, by Bob's own admission, came to intersect in the days before the indictment such that he had to come clean to Downie:
1. A story Bob was working on
2. A source he could not reveal
To hear Bob tell it, the two are completely unrelated. Suddenly bingo, Bob is sitting there watching Fitzgerald's press conference. As he tells Time Magazine, he was so struck with conscience he just had to come forward:
In his press conference announcing Libby’s indictment, Fitzgerald noted that, "Mr. Libby was the first official known to have told a reporter when he talked to Judith Miller in June of 2003 about Valerie Wilson." Woodward realized, given that the indictment stated Libby disclosed the information to New York Times reporter Miller on June 23, that Libby was not the first official to talk about Wilson's wife to a reporter. Woodward himself had received the information earlier.According to Woodward, that triggered a call to his source. "I said it was clear to me that the source had told me [about Wilson's wife] in mid-June," says Woodward, "and this person could check his or her records and see that it was mid-June. My source said he or she had no alternative but to go to the prosecutor.
Does anyone have something to help digest this extra big super heaping helping of bullshit? 'Cos it just will not stay down.
Woodward and/or his source suddenly feel compelled to come forward and tell the prosecutor something that is absolutely no help at all to Libby in his case. Libby is not charged with being the first to disclose the information to reporters, now is he? So we're supposed to buy that the source -- and Woodward is "not sure" whether they've spoken to Fitzgerald before or not (sure, Bob, sure) -- is going to come forward, possibly admit they're guilty of obstruction, false statement, and/or perjury, over a story which is of absolutely no benefit to Libby?
And then there's the fact that he admits he's willing to go to such lengths to help Libby but wouldn't even tell his own paper what's going on until he had to. Shit, he even told Ben Bradlee about Deep Throat. It's clear where Bob's loyalties lie. These are the actions of a political operative and not a reporter.
Something happened in the days before Libby's indictment came down that set this all into motion, and how it all links together I am not sure. My money says Mr. Fitzgerald somehow set this ball rolling, and not Mr. Woodward or his ne'er-do-well source. The only thing I am sure of -- Woodward's cover story is a crock. And he seems to think he is justified in his dissembling now just as he was during the decades he protected the identity of Deep Throat.
Bob got lucky in Watergate -- serving Bob Woodward also served the public interest for a moment in time. But since then the service of Bob's massive ego has meant trotting along behind the crooks as bootlick to power, and I think he is about to find out that in this instance a curious public will cut him even less slack than his compatriots in the WaPo newsroom.
(graphic courtesy Monk at Inflatable Dartboard)
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Rove.
Arbogast, that’s my instinct too.
Well, that’s still my best guess, arbogast.
Or, I should make clear (it was late last night when I posted this) — I don’t think Rove is Woodward’s source, I think he ratted out Mr. X to save his own skin.
Edited By Siteowner
Jeepers, is Fitzy going to end up taking down not only the Cheney/Chimp junta but every insufferable asshole who’s ever had anything to do with em?
Can’t wait for what our boy’s cooking up next!
A question for those who speak lawyer –
The Washington Post article about Fitzgerald presenting the case to another GJ contains the following passage:
Two sources close to Karl Rove, the top Bush aide still under investigation in the case, said they have reason to believe Fitzgerald does not anticipate presenting additional evidence against the White House deputy chief of staff. Instead, lawyers involved in the case expect the prosecutor to focus on Woodward’s admission that an official other than Libby told him about Plame one month before her identity was publicly disclosed in a July 14, 2003, column by Robert D. Novak. (emphasis mine).
Forget, for the moment, what a convenient smokescreen this is for Rove if the Woodward revelation somehow turns out not to be too significant. Does the notion that Fitzgerald has already presented evidence against Karl Rove imply anything, or am I overanalyzing?
Okay, wow, the next paragraph in the article definitely contains something significant:
Woodward, who was questioned by Fitzgerald on Monday, has refused to reveal the source’s name publicly, but a person familiar with the investigation said the source had testified earlier in the case. The source came forward to the prosecutor again after Woodward started asking questions for an article on the CIA leak late last month and reminded the person of their 2003 conversation, Woodward said yesterday. That raises the possibility that the source faces legal problems if he or she provided false or incomplete information during previous testimony, according to legal experts.
http://fusioner.proboards60.co.....1131129004
^^^ Send Letters ^^^
Hmmmmmm … so Rove is trying to get it out that Hadley or somebody else other than Rove is going to be indicted. But if Rove is getting a pass for implicating others, it’s unlikely to be this particular Mr. X, who appears to have stabbed himself in the back without any help from Karl.
Confusinger and confusinger.
By the way, another wonderful post, Jane. It should be interesting to see if Downie has learned anything from the pathetic mistakes of Pinch & Keller.
The WaPo article has set a new standard for identifying a source: “…but a person familiar with the investigation said the source had testified earlier in the case”. Guess that eliminates the source being a fly on the wall.
For goodness sake, even Ms. Run Amok testified earlier than Mr. Run Amok.
Ha-was this what rove had to put off indictment with? And then there was the conspicuous lawyer office visits iirc by Fitz.Did rove warn or collude w/Bob Woodie that he was gonna do some rattin out and to cya? Could be….
And, I may have missed it but when was the ’somebody in the CIA call”-was it maybe the person Novakula called, whenever that was- but before his July article-didn’t he call “somebody at the CIA” more than once? And this person probably didn’t just rare back and put his feet up on the desk. I’ve always wondered why something more serious wasn’t done-free w/e at a condo in Cuba? I mean if it were me I’d have been pretty active about who and what were going on re: a fellow CIA op being gossiped about by a mad yapping old fool with an audience. And for the love of Pete why did Novak also go and (just in case anyone missed it) write another article to out her organization? For the $150/article he gets, or as pique because there may have been some CIA backlash after the first article? Or for Pulitzer-you know a “hard hittings series” bla bla..
Just one more question please- a little off topic, but not much. That is : Wayne Madsen has done some speculation and rumoring about the losses suffered from exposing Brewster-Jennings- he has said many were lost, fled, killed, disappeared, and soon after the article. He also says that V. Plame’s group were working to track and acquire black market russian nukes and that there were a lot of criminals involved who benefited from this exposure, to the detriment of us all really. Most other reporting of the damage has said that B-P was invoved in Saudi oil/Aramco dealings- this would be a cover story for somebody.. what do you think? You all here write so well, I look forward to hearing your opinion. Should I duck or cover?
Thanks , all the best
But if Rove is getting a pass for implicating others, it’s unlikely to be this particular Mr. X, who appears to have stabbed himself in the back without any help from Karl.
Not necessarily. Rove could have been the one to tell Fitzgerald about Mr. X. he could have even given Woodward a heads-up about it, which would go a long way toward explaining Woodward’s sudden epiphany. Although it’s not 100% clear that rolling over on Mr. X would have been enough, in and of itself, to get Rove off, depending on what Fitzgerald had on him (and depending, of course, on who Mr. X is).
See? It’s much less confusing now, right? ;)
Okay, if Rover rolled, staving off a 10/28 indictment (assuming Fitz didn’t plan all along to indict only Libby on the first pass), then why did it take so long for Rover’s rollee to come forward? (assuming that Woodward is full of BS and it wasn’t he who nudged Mr. X into action).
Mr. X testified to the GJ on November 3rd, I believe.
Simplest analysis: Woodward is carrying water for the white house because he needs another 3 years of access to complete the hagiography.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guan.....14,00.html
Depositions being taken by former prisoners at Guantánamo.
These are war/torture crimes in every modern country in the world. Routine murder, beating people to death, inhuman conditions. BushCo has refused access to anybody, won’t let them talk to anybody.
The Senate is guilty too… Because those guys up there that voted for torture… Well I think that’s against the law to promote.
The reason they voted against the McCain bill was because McCain worded it very craftily… It is retroactive, it states that people can be charged for violating the no-torture provisons if offenses occured prior even… Which makes the whole Cheney program more illegal even in the US… It surely covers every single detainee. Surely the Senators that passed that voted in favor of torture have blood on their hands.
Fitzgerald will take down the entire WH surely, including Bush… The original target, everybody else in this case is just a warm body to get thru on the way to chimper. I told everybody here a few weeks back how it would play in that respect. Fitz took down the entire state capitol in Illinois, same style… Fitz rocks on political corruption cases, he flips em, the machine goes down.
Woodward is obviously scared. He sensed or was warned that Fitzgerald was getting closer to him and, presumably, his source, so Woodward and his source decided to practice damage control and spill the beans, at least to the degree that we now know something of his involvement, but not the identity of the source. It seems to me more likely the source arranged everything, decided to play kabuki theater, not Woodward, who obviously thought he would get of scot-free because he’s such a hot guy, like the Boy King.
new EW on the info release ruling
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c.....t-11359102
Jane –
Excellent analysis. Although I must say, even with the very best writing, which you provide, this whole thing still gives me a headache. It’s not YOU. It’s these criminals and their entanglements.
I am curious about something. Let’s say Mr. X = Rove. Booby seems to be on “casual” terms with Mr. X (Rove) — casual enough terms that it doesn’t strike him as odd to be hearing such naughty secret bits popping out of Rove’s mouth. [BTW, since Booby was in intelligence — Office of Naval Intelligence, IIRC — he should know that these things aren’t really so very casual, shouldn’t he?] What I’m curious about is the extent to which Booby has written about Rove (or spoken about Rove in interviews).
I’m not curious enough to go buy any of Booby’s books. But for those here who are in a position to know, has the Boob had much to say about KKKarl? If he’s written or spoken about him, does a certain sense of “admiration” for Rove’s, uh, skills been apparent?
B. Woodward comes across (to me) as someone who’s been of a fairly slimy, untrustworthy character in recent years — or let’s at least say that he’s the farthest thing from noble. In contrast to the role he seemed to enjoy in Watergate as a journalistic knight in the fight to save democracy.
Is Booby slimy in a similar way to Rove’s own sliminess? Can they be “allies”? Or is Booby just possessor of an ego which could fill the Grand Canyon?
So I guess I’m wondering if anyone can tell me if Woodward has expressed any certain attitude about Rove in the past.
Aren’t we all up late tonite…
sigh…
If Rove were Woodward’s Mr. X, wouldn’t he be absolute toast to the point that he wouldn’t even bother with his latest round of leaks?
But I agree — it REALLY hurts the brain. I keep thinking that as more and more new information comes out, it should allows us to jetison a lot of the speculative baggage we’ve been carrying around.
For example, the Woodward revelation … it adds several big questions, but doesn’t it dispense with any?
I’m just waiting for Jane et al to wake up and give me more.
Her post tonight sure gave a new meaning to “Bobfest”.
If Rove were Woodward’s Mr. X, wouldn’t he be absolute toast to the point that he wouldn’t even bother with his latest round of leaks?
If he’s still pleading innocent, yes, but, if he flipped, this whole “Mr. X” episode would provide him with some serious cover among his peers.
Interesting - okay, so in this scenario Rove would be taking down the VP side of the administration, leaving Bush, and trying to stay on himself?
Me –
Isn’t McCain’s amendment concerning torture (or “abuse” or whatever he calls it) really just redundent?
[By asking this I’m not saying I’m not glad to see it being voted for, not at all, the more legal sanctions for torture, the better!]
But don’t we have federal anti-torture statutes on the books already, along with an international agreement (not to mention our Geneva obligations)? I thought this disgusting stuff was already illegal in oh-so-many ways regardless of Darth Vader’s belief (according to Abu Gonzales’ memo) that “the power to set aside law is inherent in the President.”
Question: Is there any possible way that whoever told Woodward about Plame could not be indictable?
On the torture thing … man, that’s got to REALLY damage recruitment, no? I mean, any US soldier captured is likely to be tortured with impunity now. That’s what Cheney & Co. just don’t seem to get.
obsessed –
By “(Rove’s) latest round of leaks” do you mean the leaky suggestion that he is NOT Mr. X?
It’s my assumption that if Rove is Mr. X, it means that he made some sort of deal with Fitzgerald. If THAT’S true, I would expect him to try to keep his “turning” quiet, even to the extent of throwing up smokescreens everywhere.
And no, I can’t think of any questions which can be “dispensed with” thanks to the Boob’s “revelations,” such as they are.
lol… no longer depressed ;)
Tis good :)
http://www.oilempire.us/graphics/trial.jpg
There is no way in hell they are getting off.
http://www.ericblumrich.com/PD.html
http://www.crimesofwar.org/
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm
http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-index.htm
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4999734
http://www.oilempire.us/warcrime.html
http://www.nesl.edu/research/warcrim.cfm
Mrs. K8 - Yes I agree with you… But they have lawyers (stupid ones I agree) like John Yoo, and by moving them off-shore, they technically evade the existing laws. McCain’s law covers actions taken by any American personnel anywhere in the world.
I really like that pic ;) Bravo!!!
http://www.oilempire.us/graphics/trial.jpg
obsessed –
The only way I can see someone leaking to the Boob as being non-indictable would be if:
1) the Boob himself has some sort of bizarre security clearance (which I don’t believe)
2) the leaker/source had removed all legal jeopardy by making a deal with Fitzgerald.
Can you think of any other possibility? I can’t. Temporary insanity causing diminished responsibility? Har-har.
This is the first I’ve ever considered that Rove is Mr. X. I was pretty sure it was Hadley. If Rove is X, he is SO screwed. Do we really have much hope of this?
And, yes, pretty hard to be depressed this week!
Me –
Yes, I very much like that picture. Seems to me I first saw it at Billmon’s site.
Since the beginning of “Shock and Awe” I’ve been muttering, sometimes under my breath, sometimes out loud, and sometimes in letters: “To the Hague! To the Hague!” I believe the war itself is illegal, and the other horrible crimes just dig them in much deeper.
Well, I decided to check firedoglake before going to bed (as if there were any other option) and of course it led to another graphic and blog entry over at the Dartboard.
The Hamsher brown nosing is intentional, but not just for the sake of brown nosing. It’s because she lines this shit up like a Tetris master.
“Woodward Lets Pissed Off Cat Out Of Bag”
http://darted.blogspot.com
goodnight people.
-Monk
I think war is justified to defend yourself… But this was a criminal act.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....Dec22.html
So, the only way we don’t get at least one more indictment would be if Mr. X is one of the people who’s already been given a pass for ratting out Libby, and even then, this might invalidate the pass.
I wonder how much more political damage would be done to the Chimp by another indictment of a non-household name.
LMAO!!! Well Done Monk!!!
“So, the only way we don’t get at least one more indictment.”
Obsessed… They all go down. Life or execution… All of them. They already have evidence that they knew they were commiting war crimes. They knew.
I do not understand the reasoning behind things like the leak investigation… But they have been talking to law professors about war crimes and a Nuremburg type trial. In fact one of the prosecutors at Nuremburg still teaches law at Yale I think…
It is the only way to scrub some of the blood off in international eyes.
obsessed –
I have no idea if Rove is really Mr. X. I thought I should try it on for size, though. And it seems to make some stuff fit, if you assume that Rove coughed up some juicy bit to make Fitzgerald back off, i.e., a deal.
When I heard that Cheney had an (18 page?) questionnaire to fill out for Fitzgerald, it made me wonder if the visit to attorney Sharp was to drop off a similar “blue book” test for Bush, maybe with some questions prompted by info from Rover.
Of course, who the hell knows? I’m just happy things are moving along, and they all seem to be sweating bullets, and the White House is now revealed to be very weak in relation to Congress, and of course dysfunctional these days.
Hey, wait a second. If Fitz didn’t know about Mr. X telling Woodward, then why did Woodward & Mr. X have to come forward at all?????
Rove blew the whistle on them to save his own bacon? But how would Rove or anyone else know what Mr. X told Woodward?
Also, are you saying Cheney had a questionnaire to fill out recently, or back when he was being interviewed in 2004?
I don’t even remember where I first saw a mention of firedoglake (maybe it was billmon or Americablog). But regardless of that, somehow Jane and Redd have had the most consistent, insightful and up-to-date commentaties anywhere online. This is “the” place to go for anything Plame/Fitzgerald related.
Thanks very much to both of these fine ladies for their obviously informed opinions and posts.
Also I’m kinda drunk so forgive any spelling or grammatical errors.
Anon… I don’t blame you for drinking a bit.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10104534/
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITI.....index.html
Scanlon guilty plea to come Monday. They would not have him appear and plead unless he gave up everything already.
Goopers fell into some sort of trap… Big assed conspiracy net.
Shit, I forgot to mention everyone in the comments section. Often I’ve had a question or comment only to find that someone else had already asked or written it much more eloquently. Thanks to you all, too.
obsessed –
I’m toying with the notion that Rove IS Mr. X.
Suppose Fitzgerald has Rove dead to rights on false statements, perjury etc. This is not a stretch considering how many times Rove’s been before the g.j., let alone how many times he’s spoken to investigators.
Now suppose Fitzgerald hears that Rove’s willing to give up something juicy (not able at the moment to speculate just what, but assume it has to do with either Big Time or the Boy King). I can easily picture Fitzgerald saying: you’d better tell me every journo you talked to about this, ’cause I have all your phone records, and I’m going to question every single journalist you’ve even said hello to.
Wouldn’t Rove comply if it meant he wouldn’t get indicted, or even if he would get indicted for a lesser charge at a later date?
obsessed –
And yes, it was a recent questionnaire given to Cheney. Wish I could remember where I read that, but…no, the brain ain’t functioning so well this late.
Anonymous –
Welcome to the club. Thanks for your kind remarks about the comments. Hope you come around again, even when you’re not drinking! And please feel free to pick a “handle” for yourself, and to post your own thoughts. Lots of us just stumble around here trying to make sense of it all.
From Me’s link at 3:31:
“Sooner or later, the rest of the world will decide that the United States is no longer a safe bet for lending more money,” said William R. Cline, a scholar at the Institute for International Economics and author of a new book titled “The United States as a Debtor Nation.”
I’m thinking sooner rather than later. It was probably inevitable, but GWB has greatly accelerated that decision.
I personally know of a couple of die-hard GOP’ers who have turned against Bush recently, but it’s too little too late as far as I can see.
but it’s too little too late as far as I can see.
Yeah too late… I am trying to figure out how they are going to handle the likes of Bill Kristol, Pat O’Reilly and other gooper propagandists… They are a real problem, and you can’t just take out the WH and both houses of Congress without going after their tools too… And I don’t think ethics or reeducation training is sufficient.
When they rounded up the machine parts in Nazi Germany after WWII, they charged with a very large conspiracy net… I would think you could make a case that anyone that Rove talked to on a regular basis was involved in the conspiracy… And guys like his attack dog O’Reilly and the spinner Kristol… Should be charged.
I should read them… It makes me sick, but I should…
O’Reilly admits the war is over “A failure of will in the war on terror…”
Kristol: “Abandoning Iraq”
These are sick, sick men… And should not be in public.
Great post, Jane. You and Redd do a fantastic job, and your writing is delicious!
I also think that Rove is Woodward’s source, but Woodward’s version of what happened when he called the source is clearly bullshit. It’s more likely that Rove called Woodward and said, “Hey, Fitz is wrong, we talked about this before June 23. Let’s get that fact out there to discredit Fitz. But don’t say I said so.” Woodward dutifully complied.
We all know that Woodward’s bombshell does not help Libby’s defense, but Rove is not a lawyer. He’s a smearmeister. To him, making it look like Fitz is wrong and/or inept is SOP. He relies on mutual lying to protect his own ass. Woodward does his bidding to retain access. Rove thinks that he won’t get caqught because Woodward will never reveal his source, and Rove figures that Fitz will never be able to get the evidence that it was him and not somebody else (e.g., Hadley) without Woodward’s testimony.
We really have to assume that all of these rats are lying their asses off. This seem obvious. The whining of the likes of David Brooks that there is no “direct evidence whatsoever” that the Cheney administration lied about anything is deliberately ignorant. Unless a liar admits to someone that they know a statement is a lie, there is no direct evidence. Liars rarely admit the falsehood of their statements. That has to be proved by indirect evidence. Sorry, until we have a foolproof lie detector, that’s the way it’s done. And Woodward is lying, IMHO.
As you note, the night before the Libby Indictment, ISIKOFF AND WOODWARD were. Here is a key exchange…
ISIKOFF: I talked to a source at the White House late this afternoon who told me that Bob [Woodward] is going to have a bombshell in tomorrow’s paper identifying the Mr. X source who is behind the whole thing. So, I don’t know, maybe this is Bob’s opportunity.
KING (to WOODWARD): Come clean.
Who was Isikoff’s source? I have heard that when Isikoff quotes someone in the White House on something juicy, it is usually Rove…
Does that mean that Rove tipped Fitzgerald about the leak to Woodward as well?
Is that what gave Fitzgerald pause on indicting Rove?
Did Rove give up Hadley to steer clear of being indicted himself in the first round?
Did he use it to explain the e-mail to Hadley?
“Matt Cooper called to give me a heads-up that he’s got a welfare-reform story coming,” Rove wrote Hadley. “When he finished his brief heads-up, he immediately launched into Niger. Isn’t this damaging? Hasn’t the president been hurt? I didn’t take the bait, but I said if I were him, I wouldn’t get Time far out in front on this.”
So - in the eleventh hour - does Rove explain to Fitz that this e-mail was his response to Hadley’s request to let the press know about Wilson’s wife?
Was this Rove’s way of confirming that he had done that job?
I put in the wrong homepage in the previous post. The correct one is below.
oops one more try on the homepage.
The comments are too good not to read through and I don’t have enough time to read through them. I am choosing between the rope and the gun right now. Defenestration is also a possibility.
But let’s turn the question around. The assumption has always been that the reason the source wouldn’t reveal their name was to protect him or her.
What about it was to protect Woodward? I.e. the source already is heavily implicated in the whole thing and has piss and shit all over them, but Woodward is fighting for his career. So they create the fiction that the source wants to preserve their anonymity to protect WOODWARD. Woodward being an asset that the administration doesn’t want to give up lightly (whores like Woody, who can give a woody to just about any right-wing asshole john who pokes his unit through the glory hole are not a dime a dozen).
This would point to Rove and would make Woodward one of the truly slimiest pieces of shit in the history of the US.
And I think this smells more and more like a conspiracy indictment every day. I would love a conspiracy indictment. Absolutely love it. The public would have a hard time with it. It would send the poll numbers lower.
What do Woodward and Miller have in common, besides female genitalia (you didn’t know about Woodward’s surgery?)? They’re part of a conspiracy.
Beautifully parsed! Easily as good as the “dust bunny theory.” As for Woodward, being a pundit is like that. You get used to believing your own thoughts, then one day, they’re wrong and you just can’t see it. My guess is that Cheney still can’t see how wrong his thoughts were running up to the war, or Bush.
Woodward believed it was “gossip” rather than an “outing” of a C.I.A. Agent because that’s the way he heard it - casual. He went on national T.V. pushing the “just gossip” idea [the alternative was that he’d been had]. Now he’s talking crazy [it’s called cognitive dissonance]. Cheney, Bush, and Miller will never be able to see how wrong they were.
We’ll see about Bob. He’s not doing too well coming out of the gate…
Want to try out an hypothesis that you folks can knock down or knock around. (Sorry, if somebody already advanced it.)
Rove could have given evidence to Fitz about a contact between Bobby and Mr. X., and then informed Mr. X that he (Rove) spilled the beans.
That could still leave Hadley as Woodward’s source, but Rove as Fitz’s source. (However, it’s also consistent with other sources in the WHIG, including Condi.)
Just thinking out loud.
I can’t believe that Rove gave Fitz anything truthful, and Fitz knows that. Rove certainly would throw his colleagues to the wolves to save his own skin, but Fitz had that lying jackal’s number. Whatever Rove gave (if anything) to escape the first round of indictments, I’d bet the farm it was a whopping lie intended to throw Fitz off the scent. Rove is way too arrogant to believe for a second that he could be outsmarted by Fitz. But he has been. This whole Woodward charade is more of the same. Rove seems to think that Fitz is a unquestioning and gullible as his vaunted fundie base. Think again, Rover. A crime protected by the reporter-source privilege (he hopes) and covered up by lies about private conversations is hard to prove up. But Fitz does this for a living, Karl. Too bad for you.
I agree with posters above and Jane — Fitz is making an ironclad conspiracy case — one evil fucker at a time.
That could still leave Hadley as Woodward’s source, but Rove as Fitz’s source. (However, it’s also consistent with other sources in the WHIG, including Condi.)
Just thinking out loud.
sonate | 11.19.05 - 5:43 am | #
——————————————————————————–
I think that sounds plausible. Rove had to have something “blockbuster” to give to Fitz.
Personally, I think Fitz & his team were well aware of Booby’s access to the WH, and that he was interviewing various members of the admin for his latest book. Regarding why Fitz didn’t grill Booby earlier - perhaps Fitz “assumed” he was an ethical, moral seeker of truth, instead of the WH hack that he is.
In any event, I think Rove has traded the identify of Mr. (or Ms) X so he wouldn’t be indicted. Fitz zeroed in on X and Woodward figured he better “come clean.”
I agree - I’m not buying his multiple versions of truth. They are all incredibly self serving - and none of them ring true.
I’m still wondering why Fitz visited Bush’s office the day after the indictment - and how that fits into the big picture.
I like sonate’s theory and dab’s additional comments on this possiblity. All signs continue to point to Hadley, IMO, as the source for Woofwoofward (lapdog that he is). something from Rove gave Fitz “pause” but not so much it took Rove out of legal jeapardy. That to me sounds like a mitigation, not a free pass, so this theory fits the bill.
http://www.thenation.com/
Good copy
a knee-jerk speculation: rove gave up cheney (x) to fitz to save the chimp and his own ass. cheney’s toast anyway and the gop needs scum like rove after this is all over. woodward, like the dispicable trollop miller, is drunk on his own greed and access to power. woodward and miller are axel grease.
1. I don’t think Rove is the source in question. I forget…has Booby id’d the other two sources?
2. I think it is maybe Hadley.
3. I don’t think Booby’s bs story adds up. Just because he realizes he may be the first reporter to be told, doesn’t mean there is any reason to go to Fitz about it unless he wanted his ego stroked.
4. Whomever told Booby has no reason to call Fitzy…unless he fears exposure and knows he previously lied to him or the FBI.
This makes it possible that Rove knew and told Fitzy as someone suggested, then told Mr. X, who then feared being indicted.
5. What I don’t like about that possibility is that it is likely that Mr. X told more folks than Booby, not just Booby. If he had already denied telling anybody, calling Fitz and coming clean on Booby doesn’t help him, and why would he suddenly come clean on everything else?
6. Now, THIS is possible: “The assumption has always been that the reason the source wouldn’t reveal their name was to protect him or her. What about [if] it was to protect Woodward?”
My first thought on reading this was BINGO. Although, I still reserve a little room for the possibility that Fitzy asked Booby not to reveal the source yet.
Mornin’ fireflies!
Poll numbers… BushCo is in the negative poll range. More people want to see him executed than support him at all. - That’s a record for a sitting president.
I hope to see some official numbers I can link to soon… They are polling (both sides) but he looks to be 20-25% tops (those are generous numbers, his base looks to be 15-18% and dying).
We have knocked out 90+% of the propaganda machine. Twits like O’Reilly and Kristol are still getting paid, so they have to produce something… But it’s strange, twisted, objectionable… And we have taken their hearts out of it.
What’s left of his base has been left in hard core denial - Bush could not have lied to _me_, I believed in him… Doubt… questions… There is no agenda anymore… Seen a news story on Alito anywhere?
The only agenda is attack. But the Military appears to be backing down… No more frontal confrontations. The politcal confrontations may still occur… But the goopers are soundly beat in any polling, the message is sour and evil and bad and corrupt…
Rumsfeld is no longer speaking to the public or the press… His last speech was several days ago to the military and only appeared in the Pentagon journal.
Cheney is no longer speaking.
Only Bush… Hanging out their literally by himself… The commander and sheef is the last person in America (and he is not even here) calling for War.
Imagine the abuse the women are getting. They can’t tell him the truth or he will go off into an angry rage… But they know… People tell them, since apparently that is the only way he can be contacted.
I think the message given from the military, when the Iraq commander handed Rumsfeld the withdrawal plan and said this is what we are going with… Tells me they remove their nuclear capability… One thing that really worried me, Bush can’t go down or face death alone, too much fear and uncertainty… But he is suicidal. Scary muthereffer.
I like sonate’s theory and dab’s additional comments on this possiblity. All signs continue to point to Hadley, IMO, as the source for Woofwoofward (lapdog that he is). something from Rove gave Fitz “pause” but not so much it took Rove out of legal jeapardy. That to me sounds like a mitigation, not a free pass, so this theory fits the bill.
It would certainly fit for Rove to give up Cheney. And the deflection might just save Shrub.
BTW, have we found out who Novak’s first source was? We’ve got Rove talking to Cooper and Novak, Libby talking to Judy (and Pincus?), and Mr X (Cheney, Hadley?) talking to Woody. Don’t know who first talked to Novak, and I wonder what other reporters that were contacted. (Remember an early disclosure was that administration officials talked to six reporters?) Even if we include Russert on the list, there is still one more (if we believe the original disclosure, which I do) and possibly one additional administration leaker on Plame.
You know how we always say that if President Clusterfuck has lost Fineman, he’s lost the country? I can’t do links, but Hunter at DKos (on the home page) has a terrific analysis of Fineman last night on Olberman — some good comments, too.
I would add Bill Schneider to that, too. He’s the guys that does the polling data stuff for any who don’t know him. I just saw him on CNN at 6AM on a Saturday morning (PST) and he excoriated the Rs for what went down in the House last night. He ruffled the dem feathers a little for the leadership not coming out in strong support of Murtha right off the bat, but he cut the Rs NO slack. And that’s unusual.
I think he has his finger on the country’s pulse pretty damn well.
Late to the party, again!
Just a big thank you to Jane for putting together all the sources and timelines on why this Woodie thing came down the way it did, and putting it together in a very readable form. Damn, you can write!
I figured out why I’ve been doubleposting…when I hit refresh it resends my comments. Usually those are erased on haloscan when you send them, but not the case recently. Just a heads up.
sk
Anyway…Me, great summary of the gooper situation. I think it’s interesting that W (or whall we call him “M” since he is so bottoms up?) says he will listen t the Generals on the ground at the same time his Chief General, Casey, is gving him withdrawal options. Let’s ask Rummy about that…Not talkin’….Scottie? We barely know ye? fugeddaboutit. It will just have to wait until M’s next press conference. Or the day they find those WMDs. Whichever comes first.
Can you imagine 1 year ago today, Nov. 19 2004, that we would be talking like this? That the poll numbers would be the way they are and the investigation happening? It boggles my mind!
I keep wondering what would happen if Fitz simply threw up his hands in utter disgust and screamed “A Pox Upon the House of Bush! These are a scurrilous and intractably unscrupulous shower of bastards!”
Trenchant and untractable, noting can be done with such a tight knit pack of spaniels, guarding their secrets, holding their prey clamped tight in their jaws. We can all see the conspiracy at work and the news media in lock step with the news makers. It’s disgusting. No wonder they were going on about not being in the Reality Based Community last year. No wonder they were talking about fabricating history. They fabricate it with the help of the main stream media, which exists to make us swallow the most toxic lies as pablum!
I’m not one to jump to conclusions, but I think Bob Woodward, Jeff Gannon, and Karl Rove were probably having steamy, three-way homo-fascist sex orgies while discussing how next to foist their demonic homosexual agenda onto mainstream America…
…or at least, that would be a headline that might still have the ability to shock me in this case.
Jane - did you ever have any luck with the WaPo tracking down the earlier version of Kurtz’s piece that had an account of Woodward going to his source who then went to the prosecutor, which Swopa and I mentioned the other day? I had none, and I don’t know that it would make a difference, as it mostly tracked the account you are here throwing some doubt on. But it might have something.
http://www.rightwingconspiracy.....lkradio728
Souvenir, get em while they last!!!
Bush is gone. This was planned. I would not put it past them to have the Chinese grab him as he got off the plane.
don’t know who Woodward’s source is. . . but I’m pretty sure he’s not adding any fiber to his diet. He’s already shitting bricks.
If I had to place a bet, I’d say Rove coughed up Hadley to save his own ass, and Hadley was Woodward’s source.
Remember, Hadley seems to have been a Plame leak central coordinator, based on Karl’s email reporting his progress in leaking to Hadley.
That makes Hadley, in this case, a bigger fish than Rove, who was part of the conspiracy, but not it’s quarterback.
Under this theory, Cheney is the head coach, Hadley the quarterback, Rove a running back and Libby is, I guess, a tight end or something.
But I still only give this scenario about a 15-20% probability in my mind, if that. In other words, I still think our ability to discern a precise scenario here is relatively weak, given the complexities of all that is going on beyond our purview.
What I do think is pretty certain is that someone has flipped, and I agree with jane’s excellent analysis that Woodward’s revelation has its genesis in pressure somewhere from Fitzy, and not from any pressure brought on Woodward’s long departed conscience.
Excellent exegesis, Jane.
AP reports
“Hadley was asked at a news briefing in Busan, Korea, whether he was Woodward’s source.
Referring to news accounts about the case, Hadley said with a smile, “I’ve also seen press reports from White House officials saying that I am not one of his sources.” He said he would not comment further because the CIA leak case remains under investigation.
Leaving the room, Hadley was asked if his answer amounted to a yes or a no. “It is what it is,” he said.”
Our administration is bringing new meaning to “is” daily.
sonate
My working theory on Novak’s other source in Ari on 7/7/03 right after he had lunch with Libby (see indictment — press secretary reference). It has long been known that Novakula called Ari on that date & left a msg, but not known if Ari called him back. I think he did after that lunch. It is also the day the crew left for Africa, but I don’t know what time they left, so Ari could have called Novak from AF1 and the phone logs revealed that.
Let me try to remember the six people:
1) Pincus
2) Kessler
3) Cooper
4) Miller
5) Russert
6) Hmm, can’t remember if Novak is #6 or if somebody else is.
Gotta wrack brain.
oops, other source IS Ari…
“It is what it is”
How very Clintonian!
Until Woodward tells a story with more detail than, “we met in mid-June,” we can assume he is spinning his story for his source or for someone else. It’s that simple. He knows the date. But he won’t announce it.
AP reports
“Hadley was asked at a news briefing in Busan, Korea, whether he was Woodward’s source.
Referring to news accounts about the case, Hadley said with a smile, “I’ve also seen press reports from White House officials saying that I am not one of his sources.” He said he would not comment further because the CIA leak case remains under investigation.
Leaving the room, Hadley was asked if his answer amounted to a yes or a no. “It is what it is,” he said.”
Our administration is bringing new meaning to “is” daily.
There was another recent article that specified that Mr. X had not testified before the GJ. Which I took to mean he had been interviewed, perhaps not testified. Anyone know where that was?
New Thread ;)
Mornin’ fireflies!
Egad! That’s what we are! FireFlies!
Aheh. We gotcher thousand points of light right here, buddy.
I can’t keep up with all the wonderful comments here.
So this time I’ll go to the end and post before the thread goes away.
From below.. sounds like there are some other Sci Fi, fantasy readers here. (besides me.) I wrote down the author Kim Robinson… and will check out her books.
I’m not surprised about that, since I have read that it takes a higher level of intelligence to read those books and the ability to go into a different reality.
Obviously I am just a baby political junkie compared to the writers/commenters here. (And I’m a grandma..) I am reading compulsively but hesitate to comment, I feel really outclassed.
Me… I have sent more E-mails in the last week than I have in the last month! You are having an effect. Keep hounding us. I tend to send very specific letters - from me to the person/organization. I got what appears to be a personal response from Froomkin the other day. (I sent a missive on Woodward.)
Mrs. K, hope you are feeling better.
I’m not much of a praying person, but I have been sending prayers to above, asking for strength and good health for Fitz. I don’t believe in praying for bad things to happen to people. But if Fitz doing his job well leads to something bad for the Bushies… oh well, too bad.
Anyway, my two cents worth - in the middle of a thread instead of at the end.
Grandma Jo
Good mornin’ folks,
If Rove is Fitz’s source and Hadley belongs ta Woodliar, then, presto we have conspiracy and everything ken gemstone offa those two. Everyone else in the administration who had contact with one or the other of these two and then had contact with the media relatin’ ta Plame/Wilson are party to the conspiracy…it’s a dead-ass lock. My only question is, do ANY of the media folk (I’m thinkin’ of Novakula specifically) have any legal exposure if they printed any of the stuff?
I’m sorry for the rather basic questions…I’m sure you folks who play 3 dimensional legal chess ken clear up my confusion. I only play bridge…do any of you folks subscribe ta OKBridge?
OK,my head hurts now time fer a valium with my breakfast tea…but after watchin’ Murtha give the Democrats an infusion of testosterone yesterday, I say “BRING IT ON!!!”
SNIP
In his press conference announcing LibbyÂ’s indictment, Fitzgerald noted that, “Mr. Libby was the first official known to have told a —-reporter—- when he talked to Judith Miller in June of 2003 about Valerie Wilson.”
SNIP
Jane: You broke the code. Fitz, in a carefully worded indictment, used Libby as chum to bring author Sob Backwoods into the boat. In the White House, Sob was an author, not a reporter.
Well I certainly can’t figure out who Woody’s source was- or why he and the source decided to come forward–
It’s clear that Woody is a dedicated Clusterfuck enabler and loves his own ass- so those were certainly his moitivations..
All these bastards are taking advantage of the fact that Fitzy can’t/won’t talk right now- so lyin at the moment has few adverse consequences.. Everyone is denying everything and will continue to until more indictments come out.. I give up on trying to figure it out.
I think that Fitzy will produce more indictments– there’s no reason for him to be doing what he’s doing otherwise…
I still think that he let Rove walk for now because the evidence against Rove is too tied up with evidence for the big bust and he can’t put himself in a position of giving Rove’s lawyers access to it prematurely. Rove’s story that he talke Fitzy into holding off on the indictments with his bullshit arguments is laughable.
It’s worst nightmare time for Clusterfuck. If Fitzy would come out with the indictments- Clusterfuck could figure out how to deal with it– as it is now– he is paralyzed. His administration is going down the tubes and he is unable to fight back. He SHOULD at least put Rove on leave of absence and cut Cheney’s balls off–give him NO role in the govt.- but he doesn’t do this- partly because he’s an idiot and partly because HE HIMSELF may be a target– and he can’t afford to set a precedent by condemning the actions of those involved. He may be forced to defend those actions down the road if he ends up being in the same lifeboat.
The political situation is somewhat clearer than the legal situation..
The govt. is falling- right before our eyes.
Clusterfuck goes to Korea and is met with thousands of demonstrators burning him in effigy. WHILE HE IS IN THE COUNTRY, the south koreans announce that they will reduce their troops committed to Iraq.
The guy who wanted to control the world is now faced with the truth that the world is spinning way out of his control– he ignored diplomacy and alliance building as a matter of policy- and it is biting him in the ass big time.. In the last two weeks- he has been embarassed more publicly than any president since Nixon. His own party is imploding. He can’t control the moderates- cause he spent five years shitting all over them.
His incompetence and lack of leadership skills are outweighed only by his total arrogance..
It’s not a pretty picture.
rwcole,
Wadiya mean “It’s not a pretty picture”…the only photo prettier will be the Chimp’s mugshot taken before the espionage trial.
OK, I’ll go have that valium and tea now.
Titanically, there are not enough lifeboats for these hydrosliders.
Okay, some random thoughts:
I think Rove isn’t Mr. X. Rather, I agree with those who believe his tip to Fitz outed Mr. X.
Now, I think Mr. X is still likely to be Hadley or Cheney. I think Cheney is more consistent with Booby’s “I wish the first leaker was Libby.” Why would Libby be preferable to Hadley?
But here are some other thoughts. Hadley didn’t get indicted, in spite of his reported belief he would be. Condi had to run back from Canada at the drop of a hat (althogh before Rove is thought to have thrown Fitz his tip). I guess it would make sense to hold off on indicting Hadley so you could, um, flesh it out.Right.
But here’s another thought. Why go ahead and indict Libby? If you had gotten a tip that Libby wasn’t first, don’t you think you’d shift the way you presented his indictment, back off any claims that he was first?
So it is unlikely that Rove’s tip resulted in Hadley not getting indicted–something else did that. (Or, is it possible that HADLEY is the one who flipped on Mr. X, and that’s why he didn’t get indicted and that’s why he’s so dodgy about whether he’s Mr. X?)
And again, as I’ve been harping on, why is Woodward hiding the date of the Mr. X leak with all his efforts?
Rove and Mr. Run-Amok seem like kindred spirits, both working behind the scenes, both kissing up to power, both self-important back-stabbing, self-serving blowhards, that it’s easy to imagine them blowing evil hot air at each other.
Woodward’s got to go: He is not a journalist; he’s a sycophant. He needs to resign because his pants are on fire. I hope Downie comes to his senses because the Post is losing its status because of this. Fire Woodward.
And, it’s true, if Woodward is such a g