The latest spate of news reports (or non-news reports, as the case may be) keep stirring up the same series of questions. Thought it might be helpful for a few legal knots to be undone, at least to the extent that I can do so with basic explanations. I previously addressed some issues on Grand Juries a while ago, but some additional questions and facts have arisen that needed further explanation, so here goes.
Figured no one was really interested in a law review treatise on any of this, so I'm going to skip the arcane and just hit the essential bits. As with anything in the legal world, there are always all sorts of tangentially related matters, directly related exceptions and all sorts of other legal bits that may apply. This is, by no means, an exhaustive or comprehensive treatment of the subjects -- just a quick primer for the non-legal folks among us, or for the legal folks who never delve into criminal matters (it's a whole world unto its own, believe me).
Is this a Grand Jury or a Special Grand Jury? What is the difference?
After everyone working for weeks under the assumption that this was a special grand jury, based on media reports, yesterday's article in the WaPo revived that question for me. Since there has been no sourcing in any of the articles thus far, I decided to take matters into my own hands and called the Federal District Court Clerk's Office for the DC Circuit this morning. Amazing how such a little thing as the telephone can prove so useful, isn't it?
As it turns out, this is a regular old Grand Jury. The Clerk with whom I spoke told me that "no special Grand Jury is seated at this point" in the DC Circuit. (Am trying to not read into tea leaves that perhaps one could be seated shortly, and just take that as a no special grand jury at present, thanks.)
What this means in terms of the term of the grand jury is this: a regular grand jury has a normal term of 18 months. A special grand jury has a normal term of up to 36 months, if all extensions are requested.
However, and this is a big however for this case, a regular grand jury may also be extended for up to 6 months at the approval of the presiding judge.
Rule 6(g) Discharging the Grand Jury. A grand jury must serve until the court discharges it, but it may serve more than 18 months only if the court, having determined that an extension is in the public interest, extends the grand jury’s service. An extension may be granted for no more than 6 months, except as otherwise provided by statute.
So, perhaps, Friday isn't the end of this particular jury after all. The determining factor is that the extension be in the "public's best interest," which in this case arguably would be based on the late-disclosed information due to refusals to testify (*cough*Judy*cough), obstruction issues, and the late-breaking "come to Jesus" moments that Jeralyn has so aptly described.
I have a call out to determine the exact date of empanelling, the term that has been served (because some extension had previously been granted I believe, and other details -- but I'm waiting for specifics on this), so I will update as I get them.
As this is a matter of national security, and as the Special Prosecutor has had to deal with obstruction and perjury issues from witnesses, I would think that an extension would be granted under those circumstances, should it be requested at, say, lunchtime meetings and so forth, if that is possible under the rules. But I know nothing at all concrete on this, so be warned that this is simply a legal possibility.
_____________________
UPDATE: Am inserting the update here to be sure everyone sees this. Thanks to reader Sebastian for the heads up -- I missed this in my quick re-read of the legal filings this morning. (No more posting without adequate coffee!)
...the grand jury's term (which was to expire in May 2005) was extended untile late October 2005, when it will finally expire....(from the Government's Memorandum in Opposition to "Joint Motion for Scheduling Conference"
So that means that the end of the 6 month extension would be it for this particular seated jury. This does not, however, in any way preclude the seating of a new G/J, nor does it preclude the voting of numerous indictments up or down today or tomorrow. (I, personally, have presented and had voted 47 individual, multi-count indictments in a single day for vote from a G/J, so it is certainly possible that a lot will happen tomorrow...or not. Hold onto your hats. Looks like a bumpy ride.)
___________________
Additionally, should the current grand jury term expire on Friday without an extension, a new grand jury could be convened to continue the investigation, if necessary, until a conclusion is reached on criminal culpibility for indictment.
Fitz would make that call and request to the presiding Judge, who would then approve or deny the request based on the stage reached in the investigation, the alleged criminal activity and its impact on the public, and a number of other factors. One would assume that a national security matter would rise to the level of deserving an extension or empanelling a new grand jury, but those decisions are best left to judges who know all the facts. We'll soon know which scenario is applicable -- as soon as tomorrow.
What's all the hubub about indictments? Can someone plead to a criminal charge without being indicted? What is a sealed indictment? What is an indictment anyway?
Defendants can be indicted by the grand jury as a means of being charged criminally -- but they do not have to be charged in order to enter a guilty plea. A prosecutor also has what is called an "information" in his arsenal as a means of charging a defendant with a criminal charge outside of the grand jury process.
An information allows the prosecutor to work out a plea deal with a potential defendant, often in exchange for that defendant "flipping" or giving substantial cooperation and testimony against others in a criminal enterprise, before the grand jury has ceased examining the case. (This happens a lot in drug and mafia prosecutions where you have interconnected conspiracies and defendants with differing levels of culpibility in the criminal enterprise. Prosecutors start at the bottom and work their way up in these situations.)
An indictment is a statement by the grand jury that says that they feel that it is more likely than not that a person has been involved in the commission of a crime and that a criminal trial is warranted based on the evidence they have seen. This isn't to say that a person is determined likely to be guilty, but that it is more likely than not that they might be found guilty. (I know, splitting hairs, but there you are. A grand jury works at a far lower standard than a criminal trial jury -- a "more likely than not" versus a "beyond a reasonable doubt" sort of difference.)
Prosecutors have a lot of leeway in how they structure the indictment proffered to the grand jury members for voting. They can be broken down by each individual involved in a particular criminal enterprise -- say, if you have 5 people involved in a conspiracy, there can be 5 separate indictments, one for each person. Each individual indictment can contain a single count -- or it contain many, many counts -- depending on the conduct alleged.
Or a prosecutor may seek a single indictment for a particular criminal enterprise that is a large conspiracy, but it will detail the various people alleged to have participated in this scheme and who are implicated by this indictment. So every time you hear some rumor that there is only one indictment -- well, that doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot, unless you know what kind of indictment it is, now does it?
A sealed indictment is one which is kept from being publicly disclosed for a time, until the defendant has been arrested and arraigned before a Federal Magistrate Judge. Sealed indictments are often used in cases where there is an ongoing investigation (Such as drug cases, where you work up the chain from the small dealers to the bigger ones, but you don't want to tip anyone off that you are investigating their network if, say, you've flipped a few low level people and are using them to do controlled buys up the chain.) and/or you have defendants that you are afraid will flee your jurisdiction before they are apprehended. But they may also be used for other reasons, including security and other considerations, if approved by the presiding judge.
What is a "creative prosecutor?"
In my experience, the people who complain about a prosecutor being creative are criminal defense attorneys and family members of the people indicted. In this case, it's GOP strategists, who haven't complained at all about the "creative" use of detaining people of interest for terrorism cases without any hearing, any legal representation or any due process for months. Ahem.
Prosecutors are limited by the laws as written by Congress. However, if someone has broken a law, and is charged with that particular conduct, the prosecutor should not be castigated for charging the violation simply because other prosecutors are either too lazy, too uneducated, or too busy to use prosecutions for that law themselves -- even prosecutors sometimes get into a rut in terms of what they do and don't charge. A good prosecutor avails herself of all the laws, not just a select few.
No matter how you label a prosecutor, that does not change the fact that the underlying conduct may have violated a law on the books. And since Congress makes the federal laws, hearing Congressional members complain about "creative prosecutions" is really kind of amusing. Those darn perjury technicalities and all.
What's with all the late gumshoe work and sending out the FBI guys this week to talk with neighbors and stuff? Does that mean the prosecutor has been sloppy about details like some talking head person said on TV or what?
Well, no. What it likely means is that some witness with whom investigators spoke recently made some very specific factual claim about something that was or was not said or done that involved the Wilson's neighbors. Like any good prosecutor, Fitz would have investigators check and double check any factual representation made to him.
For example, the WaPo article that Jane talks about below indicated that Adam Levine (a former Rove aide) had been re-interviewed and that he spoke about talking with some of the Wilson's neighbors. Well, there's a fact they might want to double-check right there, isn't it? (UPDATE: Per PollyUSA's comment, I re-read the WaPo paragraph and I'm not certain that it indicates that Levine talked with neighbors. But I'm not ruling it out. Maybe they will clarify-- I sent an e-mail asking for clarification and will report back if I get it.) And if Rove or some other witness made other statements of fact, they'd be out checking those as well. I mean, honestly, would you take any of these people at their word at this point? Yeah, I thought not.
Some great resource pages on grand juries, indictments, etc.:
* University of Dayton Federal Grand Jury Resource Page
* ABA Grand Jury Resource Page
* Law Info Grand Jury Resource Page
Also, some great information always on TalkLeft, Mark Kleiman, and a whole lotta other blogger pages that deal with legal issues.
(Graphics love to Physics News Graphics for the intriguing map of "A sequence of photos showing how a model polymer, made of tiny balls connected by rods, can untie itself when being shaken. Science. So infinitely cool.)
UPDATE: Still waiting on a call back on verfication on jury information. Something tells me that no one will be answering any questions until tomorrow. Sorry gang -- wish I could be more precise on the extension/non-extension possibilities question.
I'm also adding this from the comments. OtisIsHungry's practice is a much more Federal-centric one than mine was -- I was a State prosecutor and when in private practice did some, but not exclusively, Federal criminal appointments. This is useful information and I wanted to be sure that it didn't get missed in the comments. Otis said:
Couple piddlin' picky points:
RH wrote: but they do not have to be charged in order to enter a guilty plea. A prosecutor also has what is called an "information" in his arsenal as a means of charging a defendant with a criminal charge outside of the grand jury process. (RH: That's what I get for trying to shorthand this information too much for everyone.)
Otis responds: The 5th Amendment requires no one can be put to trial for a federal felony unless they've been charged by Indictment, however, a defendant may waive that right in Federal court and plead to a felony charged by prosecutor's Information. So, unless there is already a deal-- a signed, sealed and delivered deal-- anyone charged in this case will first be in an Indictment, which may later be dismissed in favor of a plea to a reduced charge in an Information, or, more likely, a flipper will be allowed to plead to a lesser liabilty count originally included in the indictment, and the rest will be dismissed. Salient point-it is always possible that there are deals (plea agreements) struck and signed and filed under seal. Cooperators or flippers can be useful at trial against anyone who still hasn't caved and is going to trial, not just for testimony in the GJ. After the GJ is finished, there will still be flippers getting deals.
RH said: say, if you have 5 people involved in a conspiracy, there can be 5 separate indictments, one for each person. (This is where my State experience and the Federal rules differ and I failed to differentiate that in my post. Sorry!)
Otis responds: Federal rules for joinder (FRCrP 8)say ,"no." One conspiracy= one indictment, no matter how many defendants; however, defedants or substantive counts in the indictment may get severed for trial for various & particular reasons not relevant now.
RH said: In my experience, the people who complain about a prosecutor being creative are criminal defense attorneys and family members of the people indicted.
Otis says: In my experience, a conservative is a liberal who hasn't been indicted yet! ;-)
UPDATE #2: For those looking for some great information on Plea Agreements/Deals, Jeralyn has a great post on the subject on TalkLeft here. Here's to many plea agreements -- for that will mean many defendants. Get your deals while they still exist.
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What was all that about bloggers being impeccable citizen/journalists with much higher standards and credibility than the MSM?
Hi, I’m Rex and I’m a firedoglake-aholic. It’s been 30 seconds since the last time I hit ‘Refresh”.
30 seconds? Wow.. you have the patience of Job!
Seems I have read previously that this grand jury’s term has already been extended for the extra six months. I.e., this is the end of the 24th month. Will try to find link.
Rhedd: I thought that he had already asked for an extension of the grand jury six months ago, and that we are closing in on the end, unless he convenes a new one. Was that bad information?
.
Ilotus — I was trying to find a reference on that as well. But got cut short in my search having to get my toddler up from her nap. Still no call back from my source on this either, so if you can find a link, I’d appreciate it.
Yeah, today’s WaPo article says:
“The term of the current grand jury has been extended once and cannot be lengthened again, according to federal rules.”
and later:
“There were 23 members at the start, committed for 18 months. Their term was extended in May for six months. At least six original jurors have been excused because of hardships their service created. Some were replaced with alternates.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....532_2.html
Piddlin’ point, though. Always room for another grand jury. But it would have to be brought up to speed.
Thanks Reddhedd.
In today’s Froomkin: ” ‘We’ve had discussions; we’ve gamed out different scenarios,’ said one Republican strategist in frequent contact with the White House. ‘But to try to put together a big binder with 18 different tabs is a fool’s errand at this point. There are so many different ways this could play out.’ . . .”
Big binder . . . lots of tabs? Maybe Scooter has some in his office.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....080_2.html
Some Democratic senator or representative with a sense of humor should introduce a bill to de-criminalize perjury.
Make em sign on or sit down and STFU.
That would end this silly talking point once and for all.
Anybody got a good suggestion for a senator/rep bold enough to do it?
Marysz — Froomkin is my next stop. Thanks for the link. :)
“Anybody got a good suggestion for a senator/rep bold enough to do it?”
How about Charles Rangel?
http://www.house.gov/apps/list.....arlem.html
Fitz’ office space expansion story has been retracted. Steve Clemons says he got it wrong: http://www.thewashingtonnote.c.....01037.html
> As it turns out, this is a regular old
> Grand Jury. The Clerk with whom I
> spoke told me that “no special Grand
> Jury is seated at this point” in the DC
> Circuit.
Well, I guess since there is a known presiding judge we can assume this case is not under the FISA Court? But given that there are national security implications and classified documents, couldn’t the FISA Court get involved? And if so, we would not then know what was happening - correct? Could the whole case just disappear from view under the FISA veil?
Cranky
By which I meant it was my “piddlin’ point”, not that of the learned oracle of this here post. [please insert one of those silly happy faces here]
And while I am at it, I sense that the judge is giving Fitzgerald lots of leash because there seem to be some very ugly security questions behind all this piddlin’ perjury and such. Hogan (he the judge) does not have a rep as a leftie gadfly, to put it mildly. He may be on Fitzgerald’s page altogether, and thus not reluctant to grant him more time (and a fresh grand jury).
Barbara Boxer is rather feisty today, she might go for it.
Reddhedd,
I think the passage about Levine talking to neighbors is very poorly written. It is easy to see how you might conclude that Levine talked to neighbors.
Wapo refers to Levine later in the article, with no mention of neighbors.
I don’t think Levine talked to any neighbors.
Not completely OT: I really enjoyed reading the WaPo profile of the GJ. Mostly African-Americans, the same little ol’ ladies who are working the polling stations every time I vote. There is something about having retired African-Americans, people who likely couldn’t even vote when they were growing up, now being asked to exercise their judgement in a proceeding that will affect the future of this administration, there is something in that story that just makes me swell up with pride. We have a long way to go, but we have come a long way.
I read the comment from Peter King in Froomkin. King is an ass’es ass. If Bush himself admitted that he is an ass’ ass, King would still defend him.
Perjury might be a crime according to man’s laws but… there’s a higher law.
.
CNN just now had David Ensor and “Pat” Lang talking about Valerie Plame’s outing - Wolf asked if damage had been done and they both agreed - “Definitely there was damage.”
Damage done not only to Mrs. Wilson and her operation but also to present and future CIA operatives who now know that their government won’t protect them - and worse, that their own government will put them in danger.
Lots more, we should wait for the transcript, because a lot of what they said was very damning for whoever committed this crime.
My question (rhetorical, I guess) is: why is the MSM just asking these questions NOW? They’ve had 2 years to ask intelligence experts whether there may have been damage! Amazing!
Spank you very much Redd for this usefull info.
Sometimes I get schtuffed, but I was told they could and would extend if needed in this case. I think if they just needed a few more days… ?
On the other hand… If Fitz goes forward after this batch of perps get’s indicted, a new GJ would make sense. But Fitz says he has the _entire_ case in the bag too…
But then I am science type person, law is just a passing fancy. Polymer chains are much more understandable to Me ;)
The waiting is the hardest part!!!
Finally!! They addressed the issue of why it is such a dispicable thing to reveal the identity of an undercover CIA operative. Also it was brought up that there have been death threats by Al Quaeda against Valerie Wilson as a result of the outing. They aso discussed l the other serious repercussions that have resulted . It seems to me, that these points should be the focus of attention as well as the attack on Mr. Wilson to dis credit him. I hope Fitz gets an indictment on violating Joe Wilsons’ Civil Rights.
Firefly - There is a saying “It is all a game. Until it gets real.” My problem with the MSM at the moment is that they treat real world events as a game played by other people - like something that they are discussing at a cocktail party - that have no real consequences; just something to be debated/mulled over/talked about for that day till you move on to the next subject. Only when their intellectual cocktail party debate is interrupted do they start discussing the actually facts and consequenses (oh, someone might have died b/c of this? He’s being indicted? It really must be serious, time to put down the G & T). They would rather talk about what an “evil genius” Rove is than the consequences of his evil (I don’t buy into the genuis part so won’t repeat it). Now, they’re forced to talk about the consequences of that evil (the whole emperor’s new clothes thing) b/c they have to, not b/c they want to. They would rather be at their perpetual daisy chaining cocktail party/orgy showing each other how cool and “in” they are, but the reality is now interfering with it.
Oh I forgot, Wolf Blitzter on CNN
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10.....7leak.html
“The grand jury deliberations and the special prosecutor’s meeting with the judge ratcheted up fears among officials that Mr. Fitzgerald might have obtained an indictment from the grand jury, and was requesting that it be sealed. He could also seek an extension of the grand jury’s term, which expires on Friday. Randall Samborn, a spokesman for Mr. Fitzgerald, would not comment on the case.”
NYT is today reporting an extension is possible.
now being asked to exercise their judgement in a proceeding that will affect the future of this administration, there is something in that story that just makes me swell up with pride.
maybe me could repost his comments on the grand jury (i’m too lazy to look for them). but frankly, i was quite moved by what was written and had the same thoughts as you — how better to show the world the true meaning of democracy than to have a jury of plain old americans sit in judgment of the most powerful people on the planet. (i won’t even go to schaudenfrade of it being composed of black, middle-aged women)
From the same NYT link:
“Republicans outside the administration said the White House had taken on a bunker mentality, ignoring or dismissing advice on how to deal with fallout from the case and get the administration back on track.”
Sounds more Hitleresque all the time.
He could also seek an extension of the grand jury’s term,
uh, didn’t the wapo’s jim vandehei say the grand jury couldn’t be extended. 2 days in a row he’s gotten significant and easily proven facts wrong. that’s why i come here for a real understanding of what is going on. thank you to all who provide that analysis.
This just in!!!
Washington Note retracts office space story!
Sorry if it’s dealt with here already but Atrios says that Washington Note says that there was no larger space rental there on New York Avenue. Oh this whisper down the lane is begining to take its toll on my nerves…
(I can’t believe my sense of the future rests on something like this! Space rental in Washington DC)
Argh!
me — the reporters have been flat out saying that bush is too isolated (duh). tweety, john king, candy crowley, dana bash — all were commenting on that today as a real concern.
There’s been an indictment!
The Toledo Blade: Noe indicted in Bush money-laundering case
Just think of it as a stocking stuffer;>
Bush needs to get out more.. have a few drinks… I hear that Fitrgerald is great company over a few beers.
I read something this morning to the effect that, even though Fitz is a very apolitical person not swayed by outside pressures, he should be aware that he is now on center stage and that the audience does not have infinite patience. (Hey, we sat around for two years, but now, we aren’t willing to wait for another two week?) The columnist, sorry can’t remember who it was, seemed a bit worried that the audience (which is what the U.S. is nowadays, addicted to instant gratification reality TV) might turn on Fitz if they thought he was just playing around….
For what that’s worth….
Must be a shitty time to be in the White House. Many of the Junior aides probably signed up thinking that they would be doing great things for their country.
Now, Bush is reputedly openly cursing and berating everyone is sight. No one know who is selling their buddies down the river, everyone is on pins and needles.
Depressing.
Wouldn’t be surprised to see a big exodus no matter how this turns out- and a lot of speaking to the press about how bad things have gotten.
I was told the GJ was asked if they would continue to serve until evidence presented to them was tied up. They said they were willing.
There is one thing for sure about this case. It is historic, and it is going to press the boundaries of existing law in a number of different ways I bet… But if _anybody_ can make the law work to get perps behind bars… It’s Fitzgerald.
Hi Rex.
Damn Redd, you talk like that, all legal-eagle, prosecutorial stuff…gets me hot!
Thanks for the quick explanations. I’ve been picking up the bits and pieces as I refresh-refresh-refresh at this site (and a couple others). It’s nice to get all the background info out of the way in one lump.
Still, I AM all hot and bothered.
By Murray Waas, special to National Journal
© National Journal Group Inc.
Thursday, Oct. 27, 2005
Vice President Cheney and his chief of staff, I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, overruling advice from some White House political staffers and lawyers, decided to withhold crucial documents from the Senate Intelligence Committee in 2004 when the panel was investigating the use of pre-war intelligence that erroneously concluded Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, according to Bush administration and congressional sources
“Wouldn’t be surprised to see a big exodus no matter how this turns out- and a lot of speaking to the press about how bad things have gotten.”
Don’t WH aides have to sign something that says they won’t snitch? Cabinet officers like O’Neill are a different story. That’s probably why they’re keeping Brown on the payroll at FEMA. Hush money.
Redd:
Couple piddlin’ picky points:
but they do not have to be charged in order to enter a guilty plea. A prosecutor also has what is called an “information” in his arsenal as a means of charging a defendant with a criminal charge outside of the grand jury process.
The 5th Amendment requires no one can be put to trial for a federal felony unless they’ve been charged by Indictment, however, a defendant may waive that right in Federal court and plead to a felony charged by prosecutor’s Information. So, unless there is already a deal– a signed, sealed and delivered deal– anyone charged in this case will first be in an Indictment, which may later be dismissed in favor of a plea to a reduced charge in an Information, or, more likely, a flipper will be allowed to plead to a lesser liabilty count originally included in the indictment, and the rest will be dismissed. Salient point-it is always possible that there are deals (plea agreements) struck and signed and filed under seal.
Cooperators or flippers can be useful at trial against anyone who still hasn’t caved and is going to trial, not just for testimony in the GJ. After the GJ is finished, there will still be flippers getting deals.
say, if you have 5 people involved in a conspiracy, there can be 5 separate indictments, one for each person.
Federal rules for joinder (FRCrP 8)say ,”no.” One conspiracy= one indictment, no matter how many defendants; however, defedants or substantive counts in the indictment may get severed for trial for various & particular reasons not relevant now.
In my experience, the people who complain about a prosecutor being creative are criminal defense attorneys and family members of the people indicted.
In my experience, a conservative is a liberal who hasn’t been indicted yet! ;-)
And, great graphic!
Marysz: You gotta move fast to keep up with what’s shakin’ in this Administration. Per the WT, Brown may still be on the payroll, but he is now “the former” FEMA man. Current job title?: “conservative activist”:
http://washingtontimes.com/nat.....-4099r.htm
This link courtesy TPM.
What was all that about bloggers being impeccable citizen/journalists with much higher standards and credibility than the MSM?
Jim J
the biggest difference i see right off is steve clemons’ prominently corrected his wrong info as soon as he found out otherwise.
concerning the composition of the GJ with so many Black women: this is a constituency that Rove et al in the WH have notoriously been lax in ever trying to relate to. I’m sure the ladies picked up on the attitude of all the “smart-ass white boys” parading before them.
Part of the value of bloggers is that they take risks in their reporting- that’s going to lead to errors. Most people take that into consideration in reading their stuff.
anybody know what time we will be hearing anything tomorrow, assuming we are to be hearing anything?
has anything been scheduled?
.
“What was all that about bloggers being impeccable citizen/journalists with much higher standards and credibility than the MSM?”
I don’t know. I guess someone said that somewhere sometime. But its insertion here or anywhere else is a diversion. Bloggers mostly have a much higher tendency to ferret out information than the MSM.
Snipes about “impeccability” are best left to time-servers and frat boys.
What time?
Nothing scheduled that I know of.
Apparently the GJ will meet- so I would think it would be following that- probably early afternoon at the earliest.
Could the Grand Jurors have asked on their own that the neighbors of Valerie Plame to be interviewed?
Reddhedd (or anyone else) - As long as we are discussing nomenclature and procedure, I have a question about “target letters.” Does anyone know whether the DOJ target letter is just a generic “Oh boy, do you have tons o’ trouble” or does it specify the crimes you are facing?
I guess what I’m trying to learn is whether the principles in this matter know, with certainty, what indictments they may be facing at this point or whether Fitzgerald could suddenly turn around and pull something -er- creative out of left field. Thanks!
rwcole - link?
Well…don’t make the mistake of going to bed tonight. Lay down on the couch with a big coffee pot brewing up your strongest and keep the remote in your hand, flipping from CNN to MSNBC, etc. It’s the only way to be sure not to miss a thing.
Jane- “Link”
That was a surmise from the quoted comment of one grand juror- “See ya on friday”
Course maybe they were goin bowlin together or somethin.
Back to SCOTUS . . . Billmon:
“The question now is whether the Dems will be rewarded for their passivity with another non-nuclear “moderate,” or whether the Rovians will feel compelled to atone for their heresy by picking a nominee from the screaming nut-case right, like, say, Janice Rogers Brown.”
Isn’t Brown Rove’s protege? Now, when the Administration is trying to curry favor with blacks (especially if they happen sit on a Grand Jury), I can see them putting her name out.
http://www.billmon.org/
Target letters are not required in law. The defense lawyers have to know enough from Fitz to be persuaded that their clients would be convicted of particular offenses at a trial. So, altho he’s not required to make any particular disclosures, practical realities require that Fitz give up enough to convince the lawyers and their clients that it is time to “come to jesus.”
Fitz might give them verbal reports of certain witness testimony he has, show them documents he has or otherwise give them a taste of what’s coming.
Plea negotiations are also confidential so if they fail, nothing that is said in them can be used by either side.
Neighbors interviewed.
Now that we know that some discussions with Rove’s attorney was going on, it’s possible that Rove’s attorney was arguing that it wouldn’t be possible to get a conviction for breaching secuirty on Plame’s identity since it was already public knowledge- even her neighbors know.
Fitzy might have wanted to show very quickly that the supposition was untrue.
Nothin like blowing a hypothesis quickly out of the water and showing what you can do with agents at your beck and call.
“So now ya wanna talk?”
I’m not completely convinced that Clemons got the main facts wrong, just the details.
I’ve heard that it would not be the Special Counsel’s office doing the leasing, but rather some entity like GSA.
So Steve’s original report could be “true but not true” at the same time.
Steve Clemons (The Washington Note) was wrong about Fitz leasing more office space in DC. Clemons has been wrong a lot lately.
Rumor has it that the next supreme court nominee will be a female hispanic deaf mute who recently appeared in Omaha.
She has no idea where she was for the first 45 years of her life- but she is said to abhor judges who legislate from the bench.
I think Miers “withdrawal” of her resignation is a sign the White House is trying to throw the base a bone in anticipation of indictments related to the Plame saga. Bush needed to trade Miers for a promise of staunch partisan support in the anti-Fitzgerald oppo campaign to come.
This is the surest sign that the White House has word on the indictments. Look for them to reward the faithful with a far-right conservative SCOTUS nominee in the midst of the Plamegate fallout.
I meant withdrawal of her nomination.
“throw the base a bone”
Well sorta- like throwin a steak at the lion who’s about to gobble ya up!
Hi Reddhedd! I think you may have an error in your article that you would want to correct. The sentence from WaPo that you reference regarding Adam Levine is poorly structured, but it seems to be indicating that the FBI investigators were talking to the Wilson’s neighbors, not Levine.
Here’s the quote for reference:
“Yesterday’s three-hour grand jury session came after agents and prosecutors this week conducted last-minute interviews with Adam Levine, a member of the White House communications team at the time of the leak, about his conversations with Rove, and with Plame’s neighbors in the District.”
rw-I have another thought. A big component of the plea negotiation is also “the proffer”. That’s the quid pro quo the prosecutor extracts for the deal. I think that Fitz’ visit to Luskin may have been to get a proffer from TurdBlossom. The proffer is where the putative defendant permits himself to be debriefed/interviewed in order to see what information he has and is willing to give up in order to get his deal. The rules are that the proffer can’t be used against the proferee to prosecute him, except if the deal falls through and the proferee goes to trial and testifies in their own defense; then it can be used to impeach their testimony if it is inconsistent. That’s why its never a good idea to start a plea negotiation that you may not finish or, try to deal while protecting somethig or someone. That never works. In the end, the gov’t already has your information and you got nuttin’!
But, the prosecutor also has to be persuaded that the proffer is “truthful and complete.” So hypothetically if Fitz has reason to believe Karl could incriminate GWB and Karl refuses or contradicts what Fitz knows, then, all bets are off and he doesn’t get his deal.
Thanks OtisisHungry…I was tantalized by the rumor of civil rights indictments that were being diffused through the blogosphere yesterday and was wondering whether Fitzgerald could whack ‘em with something entirely surprising like that - even though all eyes seem to be focused on perjury or obstruction.
yeah, JohnGabriel’s right.
By the way, thanks for this article. It seems like Fitzgerald has all the players second guessing each other: Should I keep my mouth shut, or should I squeal before someone squeals on me?
It’s just one massive game of Prisoners Dillemma.
Rhedd: Can Fitz “smell” when a perp is lying?
The proffer process sounds like a motion in limine involving a jury-less judge who hears certain facts and then is expected to compartmentalize them into some brain-region where they are not to be construed as evidence.
I donÂ’t know about you guys, but IÂ’ve gained a lot of weight eating popcorn waiting for the main feature to start. I hate all these previews. I also wish the guy behind me would stop kicking my seat.
Did Tenet Resign Because of Leak Scandal?
rwcole,
Thanks for the heads-up on the waas piece.
btw, tweety mentioned that at the top of hardball
By the way, thanks for this article. It seems like Fitzgerald has all the players second guessing each other: Should I keep my mouth shut, or should I squeal before someone squeals on me?
It’s just one massive game of Prisoners Dillemma.
Mayan-No, a proffer is just picking the “Door where Carol Merrill is now standing” (I’m showing my age. Anyone else watch Let’s Make A Deal? Redd, any graphics love for that?)
I mean that its the opportunity for the prosecutor to assess what he’s thinking of buying from the defendant/snitch in exchange for leniency. They get to weigh the content adn credibility of the proposed testimony of the snitch–and often to tweak it before it ever gets memorialized into a report. Their memories get real better, real quick.
A proferee wants to please his prosecutor because, in the federal court system, as opposed to most State court systems, its really the prosecutor who has most of the power to pre-determine a defendant’s fate, not the judge. A federal prosecutor has a lot of leverage in their charging decisions and federal judges don’t get involved in plea bargaining so that’s who needs to be satisfied–either that or jury of 12. That’s why Jeralyn is right when she always points out the dubious value of snitch testimony. Its bought and paid for.
“The proffer is where the putative defendant permits himself to be debriefed/interviewed in order to see what information he has and is willing to give up in order to get his deal. The rules are that the proffer can’t be used against the proferee to prosecute him, except if the deal falls through and the proferee goes to trial and testifies in their own defense; then it can be used to impeach their testimony if it is inconsistent.”
Thanks Otis - That’s what happened to Judy Miller when she got caught omitting her notes. Before her second appearance before the GJ, she spent 8 hours holed up with Fitz and her attorney… She spilled a lot more to Fitz than she presented in court the next day judging by the time frames… 8 hours with Fitz, 1-1/2 hours before the GJ the next day.
Lemond… I think he can feel the lies, it’s one of the things that makes him soooo good at his job :))
From Demo: “Bush needed to trade Miers for a promise of staunch partisan support in the anti-Fitzgerald oppo campaign to come.”
Bad trade… I think whatever Fitz drops on these perps is going to stink so badly people will clear the room and ask for decontamination.
There is already serious problems in the WH, the country is _NOT_ happy… If senior republicans leap to the defense of these guys it will come back to haunt them I think… They are politicos, they can smell the fear in the air.
This “break in the ranks” among the goopers in Congress is just a sign of things to come… Heavy perp type indictments will hit like blood in the water, and the sharks will close in for a kill… Congressional goopers could lose an arm or even a leg if they get too close to the fray.
Be sure to sign off on John Conyers “No More Pardons” campaign!!!
http://johnconyers.com/index.a.....74DE91D%7D
rwcole — nah I meant the Waas article. Called C&L & got it.
Sorry gang — had to run out to take our foreign exchange student to a lesson. Didn’t mean to post and run. Am running through comments now and responding where you need it.
Just read (in the NY Times, I think) that Fitzgerald ran out for a haircut today. Is he getting ready to face the cameras tomorrow???
Did anyone just hear on hardball something about Cheney’s office misleading congress or witholding information on intel in the run up to the war?
Tattaglia’s a pimp. He never could’ve out-fought Santino. But I didn’t know until this day that it was Barzini all along.
Some day, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me.
Hey, listen, I want somebody good - and I mean very good - to plant that gun. I don’t want my brother coming out of that toilet with just his dick in his hands, alright?
You touch my sister again… I’ll kill you.
Jack Woltz: Johnny Fontane will never get that movie. I don’t care how many dago, wop, guinea, greaseball goombas come out of the woodwork.
Tom Hagen: I’m German-Irish.
Jack Woltz: Well, let me tell you something, my kraut-mick friend. I’m gonna make so much trouble for you you won’t know what hit you.
These quotes from The Godfather probably don’t relate to anything here today…. but they might. It’s just that going all day without someone referencing The GF makes me feel…….. deprived.
“Could the Grand Jurors have asked on their own that the neighbors of Valerie Plame to be interviewed?”
Alvord: Jeffery Toobin stated on CNN just a couple days ago that, yes, this could have been one reason for the interviews.
rwcole
you speak of blohhers having a margin of error
what you do not mention is that the whore media cultivates error, hates precision & is absolutely scared of the facts
modern journalism is the culture of error & approximation
on all levels & at all times - whether the subject is military strategy, geopolitics, culture etc etc etc
they might tell an interesting story but they leave something fundamental out
the truth
Demo: “I think Miers ‘withdrawal’ of her nomination is a sign the White House is trying to throw the base a bone in anticipation of indictments related to the Plame saga. Bush needed to trade Miers for a promise of staunch partisan support in the anti-Fitzgerald oppo campaign to come.”
Demo, I’m afraid you’re right. Strategically, Bush has nothing to gain from nominating a moderate. It’s not going to make him any more acceptable to the center or the left.
However, he’s going to find it very difficult to push a hard-line conservative through the senate. I’m expecting another stealth candidate, possibly a Federalist lawyer with some constitutional and Supreme Court experience.
Hey, great stuff, as always, but I have to clarify something (i’ve been trying to correct everyone on the planet on this one). It is clear that Fitz’s grand jury expires on Friday. He got his one and only six-month extension — running to Oct. 28, and that’s it. If he’s not done, he’ll need to empanel a new one. I know this from studying the pleadings, which are now, thanks to the website, much easier to access. In a very unsexy-sounding pleading called the Government’s Opposition to “Joint Motion for a Scheduling Order” Fitzgerald stated that while the Miller/Cooper appeals were pending, “the grand jury’s term (which was to expire in May 2005) was extended untile late October 2005, when it will finally expire.” (See http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/.....ngconf.pdf) Ergo, Fitz got his one and only 6-month extension. Tomorrow is it for this grand jury.
froomkin linked you the other day. I’m sure you noticed. I sent him a note with your most excellent posts at that moment so I’d love to take credit but he probably has you on his daily?hourly?minute to minute? check list.
You rock. Keep it up.
Do you have any thoughts on the links between Fitz and the APAIC investigation into the stolen Iran information?
i know it was you fredo, you’ve broken my heart
yeah, JohnGabriel’s right.
ReddHedd-Wow. Thanks for the props. I guess this is my first (vicarious) blog post!
You’re doing a great job. Keep at it. We’ve got your back.
Otis
Assuming the veracity of Waas’ article, I’m getting the clear impression that there are those in the intelligence/State community who hold a very clear animus against the Cheney/WHIG cabal.
Pure supposition on my part, but I’m hazarding a guess that one does not want to get the CIA really pissed off.
Actually, the Grand Jury has already had its six-month extension, back in April. So, by my reading of your story, this is the end of this particular Grand Jury.
mayan: “Assuming the veracity of Waas’ article, I’m getting the clear impression that there are those in the intelligence/State community who hold a very clear animus against the Cheney/WHIG cabal.”
Mayan, for more info on just how pissed the CIA is at the Bush administrations politicization of intelligence, check out this piece on Porter Goss and the loss of high level CIA personel in The American Prospect:
The Yes-Man
http://www.prospect.org/web/view-print.ww?id=10472
JG
Sebastian — have I mentioned how much I love you? I can’t believe I missed that in the motion doc. Thank you! I’ve been trying to chase down someone at the clerk’s office all day to verify my notes on that — forgot where I had gotten my notation. Thanks much!
yeah, JohnGabriel’s right.
yeah, JohnGabriel’s right.
John Gabriel 2:23
Sure hope it’s not Theodore Olsen. Personally, I think he knows a lot more about 9-11 and a lot of other things that he’s not telling.
Profile:
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/ind/olson/olson.php
Sorry, typo: Olson
mayan: “Assuming the veracity of Waas’ article, I’m getting the clear impression that there are those in the intelligence/State community who hold a very clear animus against the Cheney/WHIG cabal.”
Mayan, for more info on just how pissed the CIA is at the Bush administrations politicization of intelligence, check out this piece on Porter Goss and the loss of high level CIA personel in The American Prospect:
The Yes-Man
http://www.prospect.org/web/view-print.ww?id=10472
JG
Valley Girl, Olson’s wife died in the 9/11 attacks, she was a passenger.
There’s a lot I dislike about Olson, and I certainly hope he doesn’t get nominated. But I find it hard to believe that he would try to cover up anything that led to his wife’s death. That would just be inhuman.
JG
Do you have any thoughts on the links between Fitz and the APAIC investigation into the stolen Iran information?
I saw a perceptive post on that this morning on another blog: “Remember the reports a year ago that these various probes (including the one regarding Plame) had somehow merged into one covering “the whole ball of wax”? What this may have meant is that Fitzgerald borrowed evidence somehow from the other investigations and combined it with his own findings, building a strong enough case against Hannah and/or Wurmser that they had no choice but to give in. If one of them flipped, the other may have soon followed, and Fitzgerald may have simply been watching the resulting snowball of proof roll downhill toward the White House ever since.”
As I sort of imply there (uh, yeah, it was my blog), although I don’t believe he’s looking into AIPAC, the Niger forgeries, etc. in their own right, I think Fitz has looked for evidence of a broader pattern of leaking classified information to strengthen his Plame case(s).
Sebastian — have I mentioned how much I love you?
Jeez. I hope we’re not interrupting anything. :)